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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I genuinely cannot see the political significance of Star Wars VIII, and especially not how it resembles a sermon about being PC. Are you referring to its racially diverse cast? If so, how does this movie, which also features a diverse cast, avoid a similar message of PC-ness, especially as you claim there is no special political significance to what Bright does with its racially diverse cast?

    Or does Star Wars TLJ contain politically-racially charged content, aside from diversifying its cast, in contrast to that of Bright, which does not?
    If I had to guess at what's implied, Bright suggests that the species are, ah, 'separate but equal', while TLJ makes out that the lady and minority characters are noble and brave while the angry white men are wrong and stupid... which hasn't gone entirely without comment.

    The latter doesn't bother me especially- lord knows there's been enough white-normative sausage-fest movies over the years that I can allow for some swinging of the pendulum- but... it is there if you dig for it.


    I guess what you could say is that Bright is racist for certain values of racism. If you define racism as 'believing you can criticise a racial group despite not belonging to it', or 'believing there are intrinsic biological differences between races', then yes, Bright is absolutely racist. If you define racism as 'believing race X is inferior to race Y', that's not as clear. If you define racism as 'individuals of race X should be judged by their membership of that group', or 'we should all hate race Y', then I think it pretty clearly repudiates that stance. So, your mileage may vary.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    That this movie is imitating real world events, makes use of real stereotypes and racial dynamics is obvious, and is mentioned both by the many critics and the few outliers like (Variety) that give this movie positive remarks. If every professional critic sees a message, I’m willing to say there is one there.
    Sure, you're just not willing to say what it is.
    Changing a few characteristics here and there do not remove the obvious sources of inspiration or strip out its meaning. People will naturally make all sorts of inferences about Orcs simply by seeing some of this imagery.
    What inferences? And are they right or wrong? I don't understand.

    I get if you come into the movie with your own prejudices and feel like those prejudices are either supported or challenged. But... I'm just not seeing what messages the movie is supposedly giving. The only message I can see would be "there are good and bad people of all types". I don't think that's particularly controversial or even worthy of making a movie about. It's like... who doesn't know that? Practically everyone knows that.
    Also there is a contradiction embedded in the analysis of this movie as cop movie with no racial signfiicance, and then immediately pivoting to contrast it with the noxious political significance of a Star Wars Episode VIII.

    I genuinely cannot see the political significance of Star Wars VIII, and especially not how it resembles a sermon about being PC. Are you referring to its racially diverse cast? If so, how does this movie, which also features a diverse cast, avoid a similar message of PC-ness, especially as you claim there is no special political significance to what Bright does with its racially diverse cast?

    Or does Star Wars TLJ contain politically-racially charged content, aside from diversifying its cast, in contrast to that of Bright, which does not?
    http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/sta...nist-feminism/

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture...nist-star-wars

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...n-bechdel-test

    https://hellogiggles.com/reviews-cov...wars-feminist/

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    Some light reading for you.

    Look, I don't like TLJ because it's a bad movie. That it made all of the men failures and all of the women heroes is icing on the cake on a movie that already made a lot of inexplicably bad choices.

    I'm not seeing an explicit message in Bright. I don't walk away thinking "cops are wrong" or "black people are wrong" or anything of that nature. I walked away from the movie wondering where the elf girl went in the pool, and how the dragon fits into the world, and if they'll expound on the history in a potential sequel.

    Help me see what you're seeing. What am I supposed to take away from this movie?
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Also there is a contradiction embedded in the analysis of this movie as cop movie with no racial signfiicance, and then immediately pivoting to contrast it with the noxious political significance of a Star Wars Episode VIII.

    I genuinely cannot see the political significance of Star Wars VIII, and especially not how it resembles a sermon about being PC. Are you referring to its racially diverse cast? If so, how does this movie, which also features a diverse cast, avoid a similar message of PC-ness, especially as you claim there is no special political significance to what Bright does with its racially diverse cast?

    Or does Star Wars TLJ contain politically-racially charged content, aside from diversifying its cast, in contrast to that of Bright, which does not?
    No, I'm not talking about the "racially diverse" cast of TLJ. I'm talking about how it shoves feminism down everyone's throats. Poe and Finn are emasculated Yes-Men that seem to be there only so Leia/Rose/Diversity Quota(Completely forgot what the asian chick's name was, she was THAT forgettable) can tell them how they know better than they do, when in actuality, all of them make stupid decisions that lead to the destruction of the Rebel Forces by The Last Order/Patriarchy. If you are a man and want to be a hero in these new Star Wars, you bend the knee, nod your head and say "yes ma'am" when spoken to.

    Then there's the whole "Delete the old, kill if if you have to" thing they went with, having characters from people's childhoods turned into sacrificial lions without rhyme or reason, just so that they can go "the story is about X now, who cares about those old characters anymore? The real fans know only Kylo and MaRey-Su matter".

    Turning Luke into a hermit and then saying "BUT OBI-WAN AND YODA DID THE SAME THING!"(Newsflash, no they didn't) just to kill him off is a slap in the face of anyone who grew up watching the original films. Nobody who's a real Star Wars fan is gonna want to watch one where the only character left alive from the original trilogy is Chewbacca.

    I liked my silly space-opera when it was about space-samurai and apolitical. Now it's a slugfest that even Disney is expecting the Han Solo movie to bomb. Also, the force has a gender now and it's female, apparently.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Yes. That is the point.
    Part of the movie, also happens to involve looking past the imagery... But not in the first 15 minutes.
    I see you agree with me on my point that the movie has a racial meaning. You also offer an analysis of the meaning of the imagery and plot of the movie (Although surely it goes beyond Orcs and humans can be friends). This is miles beyond what others have said.

    Also, I disagree the movie wants us to look past (all of) the stereotypes (they also streotype real life Hispanics, the LAPD and the feds). The well worn message of cross-racial friendship doesn’t require that. The imagery I brought up isn’t confined to the first 15 minutes of the movie either. I don’t think it let’s up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikemical View Post
    Turning Luke into a hermit and then saying "BUT OBI-WAN AND YODA DID THE SAME THING!"(Newsflash, no they didn't) just to kill him off is a slap in the face of anyone who grew up watching the original films. Nobody who's a real Star Wars fan is gonna want to watch one where the only character left alive from the original trilogy is Chewbacca.
    Ah, the old attributing personal opinions to the entire fanbase to give them more weight trick. Speaking as someone who grew up watching the original films (albeit not when they came out), I feel no particular need for the characters of the original films to keep making an appearance. If anything they've been cropping up entirely too much for my taste, particularly in terms of largely unnecessary cameos.

    As for Luke getting killed being a slap in the face, the second word in the title is literally "Wars". People tend to die in those, and this has been consistent across the Star Wars movies (Obi Wan, Vader, most of Red Squadron), as well as many of the better parts of the E.U (e.g. the Clone Wars series).

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    If I had to guess at what's implied, Bright suggests that the species are, ah, 'separate but equal', while TLJ makes out that the lady and minority characters are noble and brave while the angry white men are wrong and stupid... which hasn't gone entirely without comment.

    The latter doesn't bother me especially- lord knows there's been enough white-normative sausage-fest movies over the years that I can allow for some swinging of the pendulum- but... it is there if you dig for it.
    I really don’t see Finn and Poe as emasculated men, but I’ll read some of these links and get back to you on feminism being an explicit theme.

    Also happy everyone seems to accept Bright now actually says something about race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Sure, you're just not willing to say what it is.
    I just didn’t see the point in discussing meaning until someone agreed there was a meaning.

    There is a lot of meanings to take from movie. Its not that the movie is especially deep but that it appropriates racially and politically charged language that already has meaning.

    At one level the movie absolutely is a simple morality tale about cross-racial friendship and maybe the idea that lots of types of people can be cops. At another, it perpetuates the very stereotypes and categories that lead to racial divisions in the first place. I think it also does a number on the LAPD, and cops in general. The perpetuation of racial categories doesn’t need to be the intended meaning to be there. The fact of sorting the characters (including the hispanics and perhaps the blacks) by race into the right boxes is enough.

    If the morality tale is supposed to be a greater message about bridging the gap between races and teaching us that people are to be treated as individuals and not representatives of a cultural group, then the message is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Help me see what you're seeing. What am I supposed to take away from this movie?
    Take away from the movie whatever you like. However, when I say it carries meaning, I mean it legitimately conveys a message to a wide group of people. The movie can say a lot of things to a lot of people. I think it implies stereotypes encompass whole groups of people, which itself is something a lot of people will carry away whether they realize it or not. This makes the movie a flawed messenger, if its message is broad and sincere. Otherwise the message is so limited, to challenging explicit racists on their proud application of bigotry to eliminate the worth of one person, the message is decades late to the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikemical View Post
    No, I'm not talking about the "racially diverse" cast of TLJ. I'm talking about how it shoves feminism down everyone's throats. Poe and Finn are emasculated Yes-Men that seem to be there only so Leia/Rose/Diversity Quota(Completely forgot what the asian chick's name was, she was THAT forgettable)
    Aside from slightly more charged language, your statements about feminism was mentioned above.

    Question. Did you forget Rey’s name because somehow you want to say she is Diversity Quota, because you gave the Asian actor’s character’s name (its Rose).
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I really don’t see Finn and Poe as emasculated men, but I’ll read some of these links and get back to you on feminism being an explicit theme.
    I don't know about emasculation. But the men in this movie are failures. The women are the heroes and the givers of wisdom. It's a straight line right down the gender line.
    At one level the movie absolutely is a simple morality tale about cross-racial friendship and maybe the idea that lots of types of people can be cops. At another, it perpetuates the very stereotypes and categories that lead to racial divisions in the first place.
    I guess this is kind of where you lose me. I feel like it would only lead to racial division if you were already predisposed to it in the first place. Nothing that I see in the movie makes me think I should be against any race shown, fictional or real, categorically.
    I think it also does a number on the LAPD, and cops in general.
    Some of the LAPD come across as awful in this movie. On the other hand, the two main characters and the heroes of the movie are LAPD officers.

    This says to me that it's the character of the individual that matters, not what their badge says.
    The perpetuation of racial categories doesn’t need to be the intended meaning to be there. The fact of sorting the characters (including the hispanics and perhaps the blacks) by race into the right boxes is enough.
    Yeah, I don't know. I'm hispanic. The depiction of a certain latino culture in this movie does not offend me in the slightest. Those people exist. It's not bad to depict them in a movie and it doesn't make them exist any more or any less in the real world for doing so.

    I feel like someone would be offended by this depiction if they were somehow concerned that all latino people are actually like that, and so they don't want anyone to see or know that. But it's like... yeah, obviously not all hispanics are like that. Who would think that? I mean, the sheriff is a hispanic and very obviously not part of chicano gang culture. The main character and hero is black. The other main character and hero is an orc.
    Take away from the movie whatever you like. However, when I say it carries meaning, I mean it legitimately conveys a message to a wide group of people. The movie can say a lot of things to a lot of people. I think it implies stereotypes encompass whole groups of people, which itself is something a lot of people will carry away whether they realize it or not. This makes the movie a flawed messenger, if its message is broad and sincere. Otherwise the message is so limited, to challenging explicit racists on their proud application of bigotry to eliminate the worth of one person, the message is decades late to the party.
    But these stereotypes exist. Police corruption is a thing. We see it in the news daily. Daily. Gang culture is a thing. Discrimination is a thing. I mean, I'm kind of repeating myself now from my original post but I guess I just don't understand what the problem is still.

    If people carry away the wrong message, I think that's on them. You can't say "you can't depict cholo gang culture in movies because otherwise people might think all hispanics are mexican gangsters". The movie did not say that. Even if the only hispanics in the movie happen to be in mexican street gangs, the movie isn't saying all hispanics are gang members.

    I don't think the movie is really saying anything wrong about any race to be honest.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikemical View Post
    Nobody who's a real Star Wars fan is gonna want to watch one where the only character left alive from the original trilogy is Chewbacca.
    I'm not a real Star Wars fan?
    Thank for telling me. Without you I would never have noticed I was mistaken for years.

    Also, the force has a gender now and it's female, apparently.
    That's new?
    No seriously.
    I'm german. To me that's normal.
    Using male pronouns would be bad grammar.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Ah, the old attributing personal opinions to the entire fanbase to give them more weight trick. Speaking as someone who grew up watching the original films (albeit not when they came out), I feel no particular need for the characters of the original films to keep making an appearance. If anything they've been cropping up entirely too much for my taste, particularly in terms of largely unnecessary cameos.
    What he said.
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    Also I thought Luke's end was glorious. He died nobly and with style, holding an entire army at bay to save lives and became one with the Force as every Jedi eventually will
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    I seem to be noticing and increasing disconnect between the audience and critics.
    To be honest it's not at all surprising, Bright is a very niche film that only a subset of people would get and enjoy. Critics have to watch all the movies. They easily get tired of nonsense in films, especially when it's a niche film that they're not a part of.

    Imagine someone who has no knowledge of western culture tries to watch Kung Fury, they wouldn't get the jokes, it would just be a very dumb movie. Quite frankly I don't think the critics panning Bright know what they're talking about in this instance, they may as well be reviewing foreign movies in languages they don't understand without subtitles.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Wow I certainly didn’t come into this topic expecting unmarked Star Wars spoilers for a movie that just came out when we’re supposed to be talking about a totally different movie. -_-
    Last edited by Phobia; 2017-12-28 at 07:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The imagery I brought up isn’t confined to the first 15 minutes of the movie either. I don’t think it let’s up.
    Of course it doesn't, because the racial divide - implied, overt, and parallel to IRL - is the secondary conflict of the movie.
    The movie takes place in LA gangland. I can find so much worse than 'Bright' in my DVD collection... I've already brought up End of Watch previously in thread.
    I've seen this movie before. Except this time, it has magic in it. Can a movie with magic in it, not make social commentary, then, about LA gangland and its cops? It's not like it was advertised as a movie for children.

    I find it extremely difficult to be offended by what is essentially the driving force of the movie.
    The movie is about that, and the characters' - and ours, IRL - ability, or inability to overcome said conflict.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Hey, fun movie. Lets discuss it!
    *Read thread*

    *Moves away*

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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I don't know about emasculation. But the men in this movie [Star Wars The Last Jedi] are failures. The women are the heroes and the givers of wisdom. It's a straight line right down the gender line.
    I don’t think Han Solo was devoid of wisdom, or Luke (as curmudgic and hostile to the Jedi as he is). The wisdom of Leia and Holdo also falls flat but I wasn’t terribly impressed by their roles.

    As far as what they did was concerned:
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    I think Finn and Poe are still MVP on the resistance end, even if Poe’s plan (executed by Finn) was a disaster. Everything else going on also seemed like a disaster, including Holdo’s “don’t tell the brash hero of the details of your obvious disaster plan, until he inevitably leads a mutiny” leadership style.


    I might be able to see what’s going on as feminism if I had a higher opinion of Leia and Holdo so assuming that they are meant to be 100% in the right and Poe and Finn were completely wrong. I suppose we can see the contours of a feminist theme as strong as the Vanity Fair review has it.

    The rest of the reviews that mentioned feminism above doesn’t really make it the central focal point of the whole movie, and I think they could have put an angle to it without making it central or explicit. There’s a lot more leeway to blame Leia and Holdo or to see Poe and Finn as individuals other than just stupid men. I also think Rose plays support more than she plays the hero .

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I guess this is kind of where you lose me. I feel like it would only lead to racial division if you were already predisposed to it in the first place. Nothing that I see in the movie makes me think I should be against any race shown, fictional or real, categorically.


    Yeah, I don't know. I'm hispanic. The depiction of a certain latino culture in this movie does not offend me in the slightest. Those people exist. It's not bad to depict them in a movie and it doesn't make them exist any more or any less in the real world for doing so.
    Everyone (ok just the greater majority of adults really, not most children or the odd adults) is predisposed to thinking in racial categories. They know what to do when psychologists give vague racial prompts and will complete stories by consistently invoking on racial stereotypes. If given random photos and asked to describe the personalities and backgrounds of the individuals, racial stereotypes will be one of the strongest determiners of what is said. Whether you think of yourself as against a group from watching the movie or not, you walk alway with a particular category reinforced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    But these stereotypes exist. Police corruption is a thing. We see it in the news daily. Daily. Gang culture is a thing. Discrimination is a thing. I mean, I'm kind of repeating myself now from my original post but I guess I just don't understand what the problem is still.
    What does it even mean for a stereotype to exist? I mean this rhetorically. Humans are individuals. Stereotypes are idealized visions of entire groups. That ideal may or may not relate to widespread traits present within the group (likely lacking scientific percision compared to other idealizations used by scientists).

    The problem is not whether or not the stereotype “exists” (whatever that might mean), the problem is that the reinforcement of stereotypes without taking the time to problematicize it is not helpful to the overall narrative.

    At least, if we agree the narrative has something to do with breaking down barriers and everyone getting along. Having negative expectations of someone based on group characteristics isn’t helpful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    If people carry away the wrong message, I think that's on them. You can't say "you can't depict cholo gang culture in movies because otherwise people might think all hispanics are mexican gangsters". The movie did not say that. Even if the only hispanics in the movie happen to be in mexican street gangs, the movie isn't saying all hispanics are gang members.

    I don't think the movie is really saying anything wrong about any race to be honest.
    The movie doesn’t have to be that blatant. Also I don’t put things in terms of “right” or “wrong.”

    I say the movie isn’t an effective vehicle for what it makes its morale, or otherwise its morale is narrow and outdated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    To be honest it's not at all surprising, Bright is a very niche film that only a subset of people would get and enjoy. Critics have to watch all the movies. They easily get tired of nonsense in films, especially when it's a niche film that they're not a part of.
    You think Netflix spent $90 Million on a niche film? It clearly isn’t meant to be niche. You don’t spend that sort of money unless you think you are getting a lot of views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Of course it doesn't, because the racial divide - implied, overt, and parallel to IRL - is the secondary conflict of the movie.

    The movie takes place in LA gangland. I can find so much worse than 'Bright' in my DVD collection... I've already brought up End of Watch previously in thread.
    I've seen this movie before. Except this time, it has magic in it. Can a movie with magic in it, not make social commentary, then, about LA gangland and its cops? It's not like it was advertised as a movie for children.

    I find it extremely difficult to be offended by what is essentially the driving force of the movie.
    The movie is about that, and the characters' - and ours, IRL - ability, or inability to overcome said conflict.
    If you see this movie as just using racial imagery sprinkled to shock and appear “real” and gritty like a LA gangland movie that’s, well interesting. I disagree as I think the racism has a larger component.

    I don’t hold gangland movies in high esteem artistically. I see movies that make racism as we see onscreen pervasive without any sort of interesting twist to it as lazy. Just taking real life things, dialing up to 11, and visually depicting to give a kick to the senses.

    Bright, however, uses racism as the hook, the main course, and the backdrop for its message. There is a purpose to it. Its not unlike “In The Heat of The Night,” in how pervasive race is the film. Only “In The Heat of The Night” is a classic because the character undermines the racism basically by existing and doing as he does. Instead, the Orc-hero takes a back seat to Will Smith’s character in this film, and doesn’t do much to challenge anyone’s perception of him (as wrong as they may be) and doesn’t cleanly separate himself from that image.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Instead, the Orc-hero takes a back seat to Will Smith’s character in this film, and doesn’t do much to challenge anyone’s perception of him (as wrong as they may be) and doesn’t cleanly separate himself from that image.
    Except that he proves that he can be an Orc, and a cop, at the same time.
    ...I wonder what that's meant to represent?
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Movie says racism is bad, gets called racist. Irony.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Movie says racism is bad, gets called racist. Irony.
    LMAO, well, that's pretty succinct I'd say .
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    I saw it and honestly I have a simple yet crucial problem with the movie.
    I think I would have preferred if they had gone with the Shadowrun backstory, where fantasy and modern world get mixed up relatively recently.

    Instead, they chose to go "full alternate" present, and that creates a lot of problems. Two thousand years and Yakobi is the first orc cop ever? seriously? A lot of the problems the movie comes up with shouldnt be new at all, but it looks like they are.

    If an alternate fantasy dimension, or magic, had entered the world (say) in the '80s, it would have been much better, leaving everything else just the same.

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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Movie says racism is bad, gets called racist. Irony.
    Eh a bit simplistic. Plenty of movies perpetuate stereotypes without problematicizing them and use race politics to shock and entertain. The fact this movie does so while bringing a message that might be interpreted "racism is bad" actually makes the message muddy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Mattys View Post
    I saw it and honestly I have a simple yet crucial problem with the movie.
    I think I would have preferred if they had gone with the Shadowrun backstory, where fantasy and modern world get mixed up relatively recently.

    Instead, they chose to go "full alternate" present, and that creates a lot of problems. Two thousand years and Yakobi is the first orc cop ever? seriously? A lot of the problems the movie comes up with shouldnt be new at all, but it looks like they are.

    If an alternate fantasy dimension, or magic, had entered the world (say) in the '80s, it would have been much better, leaving everything else just the same.
    I think in the $90 million budget they had no room to purchase the movie rights

    Seriously though, Shadowrun is a niche property. Tying things to a Tolkein-esqe event hundreds (ok 2000) years ago makes things more connected to a fantasy property the mainstream can recognize.

    Yes, one wonders what happened to orc during the the Early Modern period, Enlightenment, founding of America, Slavery, Civil Rights movement, etc etc. However, the historical black hole (no pun intended) isn't necessarily a "problem" for the movie. It just means we don't know how the alternative history shakes out. Also, 2000 years puts the major event around the time of Jesus (if he existed in this history) squarely in the Roman Empire's period, not the medieval period. That just makes the alternative history weird.

    We don't need to know the history for the plot of the movie. Nothing in the movie depends on it. At best it is yet another thing that detracts from the movie's message, the movie makes it hard to draw its relevance to real historical political movements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Eh a bit simplistic. Plenty of movies perpetuate stereotypes without problematicizing them and use race politics to shock and entertain. The fact this movie does so while bringing a message that might be interpreted "racism is bad" actually makes the message muddy.
    Yes the movie does perpetuate some stereotypes about Elves being just glamorous badass ninjas who are good at everything but when you think of the cash they have around they can afford to drop 90 mil for a puff piece that also throws a bone to Orcs and.... wait none of these races are real. How bout dat.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Then there's the whole "Delete the old, kill if if you have to" thing they went with, having characters from people's childhoods turned into sacrificial lions without rhyme or reason, just so that they can go "the story is about X now, who cares about those old characters anymore? The real fans know only Kylo and MaRey-Su matter".

    Turning Luke into a hermit and then saying "BUT OBI-WAN AND YODA DID THE SAME THING!"(Newsflash, no they didn't) SPOILER. Nobody who's a real Star Wars fan is gonna want to watch one where SPOILER
    Well.. i do agree partly.. i think the main reason i have disliked these movies.. is that i dont think it gives the original cast the ending you could feel they deserved after the original trillogy had ended. There is.. mhm.. could do i put it.. no closure for those who grew up with those movies.. if that makes sense?

    Spoiler
    Show

    I will say that Luke's last stand were kinda awesome. He managed to at last make us see Han had meant something deep for both him and Leia. And it were a really satisfying moment to finally realised that the reason he survived the firepower of an entire army, were because he was astrally projecting from across the galaxy.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Yes the movie does perpetuate some stereotypes about Elves being just glamorous badass ninjas who are good at everything but when you think of the cash they have around they can afford to drop 90 mil for a puff piece that also throws a bone to Orcs and.... wait none of these races are real. How bout dat.
    Had this conversation, past it. We're moving on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    You think Netflix spent $90 Million on a niche film? It clearly isn’t meant to be niche. You don’t spend that sort of money unless you think you are getting a lot of views.
    Yes. I absolutely think Netflix would give a niche film a 90 million USD budget. Being niche isn't the same as not getting views. Blade Runner 2049 (2017) had 181 million USD production budget. Transformers revenge of the fallen (2009) had a 200 million USD budget.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Yes. I absolutely think Netflix would give a niche film a 90 million USD budget. Being niche isn't the same as not getting views. Blade Runner 2049 (2017) had 181 million USD production budget. Transformers revenge of the fallen (2009) had a 200 million USD budget.
    Blade Runner looks pretty disappointing for that sort of budget.

    I don't understand your idea of niche if you are calling Transformers niche. These are among the highest gross movies. Transformers doesn't just have views, it has a enormous franchise around it, with high brand familiarity the world over. In addition to movies, there are decades of American cartoons and anime, toy-lines etc. Transformers is the very opposite of niche.

    You might as well call Star Wars niche or Harry Potter, or American football (its virtually unknown outside America).

    A niche movie refers to a movie that speaks to and is meant to speak to a small specialized segment of the population. It absolutely means it will not be getting many views from a mainstream audience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Everyone (ok just the greater majority of adults really, not most children or the odd adults) is predisposed to thinking in racial categories. They know what to do when psychologists give vague racial prompts and will complete stories by consistently invoking on racial stereotypes. If given random photos and asked to describe the personalities and backgrounds of the individuals, racial stereotypes will be one of the strongest determiners of what is said. Whether you think of yourself as against a group from watching the movie or not, you walk alway with a particular category reinforced.
    My point is that... I don't think most people think about this as you do or care about this as you do. Like, you're alluding to psychological tests that check for tendencies in racial stereotyping. So, I suspect, and given your original post in this thread, these things matter to you more than the average person and you perceive them differently than the average person. Because most people aren't going to trot out examples of psychological tests when critiquing a movie.

    You're seeing something flawed in the film because you're predisposed to see something racist there.

    What does it even mean for a stereotype to exist? I mean this rhetorically. Humans are individuals. Stereotypes are idealized visions of entire groups. That ideal may or may not relate to widespread traits present within the group (likely lacking scientific percision compared to other idealizations used by scientists).

    The problem is not whether or not the stereotype “exists” (whatever that might mean), the problem is that the reinforcement of stereotypes without taking the time to problematicize it is not helpful to the overall narrative.
    What does it mean to "reinforce a stereotype"?

    I know humans are individuals. That's why these depictions are not a problem. Anyone that knows humans are individuals shouldn't have a problem with depictions of stereotypes. These were not caricatures.
    At least, if we agree the narrative has something to do with breaking down barriers and everyone getting along. Having negative expectations of someone based on group characteristics isn’t helpful.




    The movie doesn’t have to be that blatant. Also I don’t put things in terms of “right” or “wrong.”

    I say the movie isn’t an effective vehicle for what it makes its morale, or otherwise its morale is narrow and outdated.
    We've had a few exchanges now and I still don't really know what your problem with the movie is. You make references to stereotypes and explicit statements, but I don't know what they are and why they make the movie flawed.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Had this conversation, past it. We're moving on.
    Why. On the surface level they may well appear to be a stand in for existing races here on Earth but they clearly also match up with none. They borrow a little here and there in ways that make sense for an oppressed group with things like gang culture and a strong family unit expanded to a clan level. But that is where it stops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    My point is that... I don't think most people think about this as you do or care about this as you do. Like, you're alluding to psychological tests that check for tendencies in racial stereotyping. So, I suspect, and given your original post in this thread, these things matter to you more than the average person and you perceive them differently than the average person. Because most people aren't going to trot out examples of psychological tests when critiquing a movie.
    It is worth noting that those tests are generally bunk anyways. Not sure why anyone would bother to reference them.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2017-12-29 at 03:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    My point is that... I don't think most people think about this as you do or care about this as you do. Like, you're alluding to psychological tests that check for tendencies in racial stereotyping. So, I suspect, and given your original post in this thread, these things matter to you more than the average person and you perceive them differently than the average person. Because most people aren't going to trot out examples of psychological tests when critiquing a movie.

    You're seeing something flawed in the film because you're predisposed to see something racist there.

    I thought you were going someplace really profound before you veered into the conclusion. I have an interest is certain things, but viewing movies as racist is not it.

    Also, saying the movie is "racist" is a gross simplification of my views. That's not my complaint about the movie, my complaint is it doesn't deliver the moral message it purports to do effectively and undermines itself by failing to challenge the stereotypes it perpetuates.

    Plenty of movies throw out stereotypes and even show graphic racial violence for entertainment. I'm not terribly interested in them. This movie brings that sort of graphic into the mainstream as Netflix's first and only big budget movie. The fantasy angle and the morality message are thin fig leafs.

    I think this movie helps bring these sorts of portrayals into more mainstream movies more than it does anything else.

    Note I haven't said what to do with the movie, I am just describing how I read the movie and how I think the movie affects the greater majority viewers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    What does it mean to "reinforce a stereotype"?
    Any display of stereotypical portrayal that do not challenge or undermines the portrayal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I know humans are individuals. That's why these depictions are not a problem. Anyone that knows humans are individuals shouldn't have a problem with depictions of stereotypes. These were not caricatures.
    Studies show that people, by and large, are biased by the preponderance of stereotypes. I don't advocate to their elimination from art and culture, but I think there existence is problematic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    We've had a few exchanges now and I still don't really know what your problem with the movie is. You make references to stereotypes and explicit statements, but I don't know what they are and why they make the movie flawed.
    This is because you aren't understanding my perspective as given above. I think the subtext is at odds with the text. I absolute read the preponderance of stereotypes as containing the individuals within those boxes. That is obvious to me because I've read a lot of texts that show people absolutely learn from these portrayals. There's even studies that show people can have their worldview altered by watching enough television.

    Stereotypical portrayals have these effects. I suppose you may want me to trot out these studies next, but even if I crack open these books would you even accept it proves my point?

    My point is not to advocate for censorship of movies, books, or other media that contains these images. My point is really limited to saying that this movie reinforces the stereotypes just like other portrayals does, they could have challenged the stereotypes but chose not to, and the failure to do undermines any message of harmony the movie purports to give.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    I'd just like to point out that I get the point and the argument Reddish Mage makes. I haven't seen Bright, so I can't comment on how accurate his description is, but just based on the trailer and few small clips it seem to be correct.

    He's basically saying that a fairy tale having written with a moral in mind doesn't mean that it actually teaches kids that lesson (maybe it makes the bad thing seem exciting, or is too heavy-handed, or too obscure, or...). That wouldn't make fairy tales bad, or that message or moral a bad one, or even the story a bad story. It just makes its message muddled.

    And he's raised several points that, to me as well, seem to muddle Bright's message.

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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by endoperez View Post
    I'd just like to point out that I get the point and the argument Reddish Mage makes. I haven't seen Bright, so I can't comment on how accurate his description is, but just based on the trailer and few small clips it seem to be correct.

    He's basically saying that a fairy tale having written with a moral in mind doesn't mean that it actually teaches kids that lesson (maybe it makes the bad thing seem exciting, or is too heavy-handed, or too obscure, or...). That wouldn't make fairy tales bad, or that message or moral a bad one, or even the story a bad story. It just makes its message muddled.

    And he's raised several points that, to me as well, seem to muddle Bright's message.
    I get what his point is, its just that he is wrong. The movie constantly challenges the "stereotype" associated with Orcs as a hodgepodge of tropes common to groups who have been discriminated against and then forces you to look past them with numerous characters who don't actually fit into the mold your mind initially creates before you even met them. The problem is that it does a less then perfect job when it comes to actually being a particularly good movie which means the whole things is just a bit off. My point is that when people tear an other wise good enough movie to literal shreds over a couple minor missteps in its racism is bad message it just makes people not want to bother with anything to do with race, gender, class, or whatever other issue it is.
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    Default Re: Netflix original "Bright"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Blade Runner looks pretty disappointing for that sort of budget.

    I don't understand your idea of niche if you are calling Transformers niche. These are among the highest gross movies. Transformers doesn't just have views, it has a enormous franchise around it, with high brand familiarity the world over. In addition to movies, there are decades of American cartoons and anime, toy-lines etc. Transformers is the very opposite of niche.

    You might as well call Star Wars niche or Harry Potter, or American football (its virtually unknown outside America).

    A niche movie refers to a movie that speaks to and is meant to speak to a small specialized segment of the population. It absolutely means it will not be getting many views from a mainstream audience.
    As a Swede I would definitely call American Football a niche sport

    However, the reason I would not put Star Wars and Harry potter into niche categories is because they transcend their genres, Game of Thrones too.

    It was a mistake to call Transformers a niche movie, it could be a niche movie if it didn't transcend its genre by appealing to the lowest common denominator.
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