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  1. - Top - End - #721
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I would have pegged it as 4th level, personally. A spell that allows a vampire to remove its greatest weakness and which seems to last all day? Seems too powerful to put any lower. If it had a shorter duration and needed to be cast repeatedly then that would be a different story.
    That's a good point. If we consider that the main function of Protection vs. Sunlight is to protect Vamps against one of its main weaknesses, and that it could be considered roughly equivalent (albeit more specific) to protecting a living being from negative energy, Protection from Sunlight could be considered a more specific, higher duration oposite equivalent to Death Ward (which is 4th level).
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    I did think about potential abuse of the spell, hence making protection from daylight vulnerable to any [Light] spell of 1st level or greater (e.g. won't save you from a sunbeam or sunburst or even faerie fire haha). It's useful for roleplay situations where it turns out the "friendly" NPC was secretly a vampire all along, but not combat. A greater protection from daylight or life ward might be more equivalent to death ward i.e. give immunity to [Light] and positive energy effects.
    Last edited by rferries; 2018-06-18 at 02:07 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #723
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    That's a good point. If we consider that the main function of Protection vs. Sunlight is to protect Vamps against one of its main weaknesses, and that it could be considered roughly equivalent (albeit more specific) to protecting a living being from negative energy, Protection from Sunlight could be considered a more specific, higher duration oposite equivalent to Death Ward (which is 4th level).
    Another good analogy that occurs to me is Water Breathing - it allows humanoids to survive an environment that is otherwise lethal to them (albeit less so than sunlight is to a vampire) for what would be, at Malack's level, precisely a day (assuming a single target). It's 3rd level, which means Protection from Daylight could plausibly be set at that level as well.

    OTOH, daylight is a deadlier threat to vampires than water is to humanoids, so perhaps 4th level is fair after all. I could see it going either way.
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  4. - Top - End - #724
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I did think about potential abuse of the spell, hence making protection from daylight vulnerable to any [Light] spell of 1st level or greater (e.g. won't save you from a sunbeam or sunburst or even faerie fire haha). It's useful for roleplay situations where it turns out the "friendly" NPC was secretly a vampire all along, but not combat. A greater protection from daylight or life ward might be more equivalent to death ward i.e. give immunity to [Light] and positive energy effects.
    One possibility should be comparing it the similary "protecting against sun effects" Cloak of Shade from Sandstorm, that specifically states that
    Spoiler: from Sandstorm
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    "Cloak of shade has no effect on light,daylight, sunburst, and similar magical light effects, and it offers no protection from damage that creatures vulnerable to sunlight might take from the sun."


    Cloak of Shade is 1st level, so a spell that does give protection from damage that creatures vulnerable to sunlight might take from the sun should be of a higher level, at least 2nd, maybe 3rd.
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    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
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  5. - Top - End - #725
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    The closest equivalent I can think of is the Endure Sunlight feat from Libris Mortis; which allows you to resist dangerous effects of sunlight for 1+Cha mod rounds (minimum 1), after which the normal effects kick in. If you happen to be an ancient silver vampiric dragon (like Baron Eeleep) with the baseline Charisma score of 30, you can walk around in the sun for a minute (and six seconds) without a problem.

    The question is if that's a daily limit, or if Baron Eeleep can waltz around in a forest during the summer as long as he wanders under the shade of a tree every minute. (Whether Baron Eeleep is using a silver dragon's Alternate Form ability, and/or pirouetting through a forest of dire redwood trees, is an exercise left to the reader.)

  6. - Top - End - #726
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    One possibility should be comparing it the similary "protecting against sun effects" Cloak of Shade from Sandstorm, that specifically states that
    Spoiler: from Sandstorm
    Show
    "Cloak of shade has no effect on light,daylight, sunburst, and similar magical light effects, and it offers no protection from damage that creatures vulnerable to sunlight might take from the sun."


    Cloak of Shade is 1st level, so a spell that does give protection from damage that creatures vulnerable to sunlight might take from the sun should be of a higher level, at least 2nd, maybe 3rd.
    Honestly, if I were running a game and deciding on what to do about such a spell, there would just be a few things I'd consider:

    1. If a PC needs it and the game won't work without it, it should be available easily. This should be considered a special case in order to make that specific game work and not a general rule. I would probably ask the player why they want to play a vampire and then negate the most iconic feature of vampires, but if they really wanted to play one I'd shrug and give them the spell.

    2. Otherwise, if I were writing a sourcebook and making a general rule, I would either make the spell 8th level (possibly even 9th with additional effects) or not available at all. Anything below 5th would be a hard no. My reasoning is that, given that most vampires are high-level, making it available as a low-level spell functionally negates the impact of the sun entirely, which is unthematic.

    (Obviously OOTS is an example of case 1, ie. "Malack needs this to work as a character, so it exists.")

    I suspect that the same logic went into Cloak of Shade, ie. not "this is too low level" but "this effect shouldn't be available at all in the generic game, because if it is it drastically changes the entire way vampires work." Even OOTS can't escape this entirely - you can see people discussing the question of how Hel can grant that spell, or if Vampire!Durkon taught them or whatever, leading down a weird rabbit-hole where Malack's spell is so important that it getting out could significantly change the setting. I don't think that was intended, but it's hard to avoid. (Also FWIW I would assume that the OOTS spell is as high of a level as it could possibly reasonably be, for similar reasons - ie. it causes weird setting issues if it's low-level and anyone could reasonably research it.)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2018-06-18 at 07:02 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #727
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    (Obviously OOTS is an example of case 1, ie. "Malack needs this to work as a character, so it exists.")
    Malack, of course, was a level 12 cleric. I haven't gone over his spells cast during the Longest Day, but I would not be surprised if his 6th and 5th-level spells were all accounted for. Especially since he prepared two protection from daylights.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Even OOTS can't escape this entirely - you can see people discussing the question of how Hel can grant that spell, or if Vampire!Durkon taught them or whatever, leading down a weird rabbit-hole where Malack's spell is so important that it getting out could significantly change the setting.
    Note that that discussion was about the insta-vamp spell, which Durkon learned from the staff - Protection from Daylight is effectively lost to the ages at this point.

    Also, I never really bought that the insta-vamp spell would make such a big difference over the three-day time in the long run - sure, you get a quicker start if you snag some clerics, but the growth is exponential either way.

  9. - Top - End - #729
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Honestly, if I were running a game and deciding on what to do about such a spell, there would just be a few things I'd consider:

    1. If a PC needs it and the game won't work without it, it should be available easily. This should be considered a special case in order to make that specific game work and not a general rule. I would probably ask the player why they want to play a vampire and then negate the most iconic feature of vampires, but if they really wanted to play one I'd shrug and give them the spell.

    2. Otherwise, if I were writing a sourcebook and making a general rule, I would either make the spell 8th level (possibly even 9th with additional effects) or not available at all. Anything below 5th would be a hard no. My reasoning is that, given that most vampires are high-level, making it available as a low-level spell functionally negates the impact of the sun entirely, which is unthematic.

    (Obviously OOTS is an example of case 1, ie. "Malack needs this to work as a character, so it exists.")

    I suspect that the same logic went into Cloak of Shade, ie. not "this is too low level" but "this effect shouldn't be available at all in the generic game, because if it is it drastically changes the entire way vampires work." Even OOTS can't escape this entirely - you can see people discussing the question of how Hel can grant that spell, or if Vampire!Durkon taught them or whatever, leading down a weird rabbit-hole where Malack's spell is so important that it getting out could significantly change the setting. I don't think that was intended, but it's hard to avoid. (Also FWIW I would assume that the OOTS spell is as high of a level as it could possibly reasonably be, for similar reasons - ie. it causes weird setting issues if it's low-level and anyone could reasonably research it.)
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Malack, of course, was a level 12 cleric. I haven't gone over his spells cast during the Longest Day, but I would not be surprised if his 6th and 5th-level spells were all accounted for. Especially since he prepared two protection from daylights.
    AFAWK, Malack was 12th level, and his 6th level slots were taken, so the Protection vs Sunlight spell should be 5th or less. All in all, I think something beetween 3rd, 4th or 5th levels should be appropriate. Not too easy, higher than Endure Elements or Cloak of Shade, but not overtly difficult, since it's a specific protection from a very specific effect. I'd also say it shouldn't work on other creatures "sunlight sensitivities", because:

    1) It seens to be a vampires-researched spell, designed to protect against the damage of the sun rays*;

    and

    2) Those sensitivities are not derived from any vulnerability to sunlight or bright lights, but from being nocturnal or subterraneal in most cases, thus being not used to fight in the presence of bright lights. There's even a feat to cancel that, if I'm not mistaken, reflecting training in fighting under light.

    *OTOH, I see the Protection from Sunlight spell giving similar protections of Cloak of Shade against sunburn, sun glare, and even preventing someone from getting a tan. Think of it as a extreme magical version of the Robocop's blue sunscreen.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    Note that that discussion was about the insta-vamp spell, which Durkon learned from the staff - Protection from Daylight is effectively lost to the ages at this point.

    Also, I never really bought that the insta-vamp spell would make such a big difference over the three-day time in the long run - sure, you get a quicker start if you snag some clerics, but the growth is exponential either way.
    Coming to think of it, you are pretty on spot. The hastenning per se of the vampire making proccess is a menace, but the major menace is the fact that there is a vampire making other vampires...
    Last edited by D.One; 2018-06-19 at 08:20 AM.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
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    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
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    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
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  10. - Top - End - #730
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    In the current strip, Minrah failed a Concentration check to cast cure moderate wounds after taking damage from a single thrown dagger. Does this give us an upper limit on her ranks in Concentration?

    In the prior strip, Roy deflects Elan's sabre with his unarmed hand and a "block" sound effect. Dramatic effect to simply represent his AC, or a special feat?

  11. - Top - End - #731
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    In the current strip, Minrah failed a Concentration check to cast cure moderate wounds after taking damage from a single thrown dagger. Does this give us an upper limit on her ranks in Concentration?
    Unfortunatelly no, because a "1" on the check is always a possibility. Moreover, that's Belkar's Former Tarkin's Colision Dagger. Its damage is pretty high.

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    In the prior strip, Roy deflects Elan's sabre with his unarmed hand and a "block" sound effect. Dramatic effect to simply represent his AC, or a special feat?
    Probably just AC. In fact, I'd say Roy is fighting defensively agains his friends.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

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  12. - Top - End - #732
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Unfortunatelly no, because a "1" on the check is always a possibility. Moreover, that's Belkar's Former Tarkin's Colision Dagger. Its damage is pretty high.



    Probably just AC. In fact, I'd say Roy is fighting defensively agains his friends.
    Skill checks in 3.5 arenít an automatic failure on a 1 or an automatic success on a 20. Is Concentration an exception to that rule?
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  13. - Top - End - #733
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Righto, a +5 dagger of collision, assuming Belkar has Str 17 (highest possibility given on front page)...

    4 (dagger) + 5 (+5 enhancement) + 5 (collision) + 3 (Str mod) = 17 damage (maximum).

    Concentration DC = 10 (base DC) + 17 (damage taken) = 27... which is admittedly way higher and much less useful than I was expecting. She failed all the other Concentration checks so I assumed the thrown dagger would be useful (negates Belkar using Power Attack to buff the DC), but perhaps not.

    Minrah is multiclass but is at least a 5th-level cleric (she's cast cure serious wounds). Presumably she only started investing in Concentration when she started cleric training, so she might have as few as 5 ranks in Concentration (or less). Even if she was casting defensively there's still a chance she'd provoke an attack of opportunity (though she'd have to roll a 1 or 2 to fail the DC 17 check to do so). However, this assumes she has no Constitution modifier, which seems unlikely.

    n.b. Isn't the dagger oversized for Belkar?
    Last edited by rferries; 2018-06-22 at 08:04 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #734
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Even if she was casting defensively there's still a chance she'd provoke an attack of opportunity (though she'd have to roll a 1 or 2 to fail the DC 17 check to do so).
    A failure on the Concentration check to cast defensively means the spell fails outright, not that an attack of opportunity is provoked anyway.

    Belkar using a readied action would work whether or not Minrah provoked an attack of opportunity, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Isn't the dagger oversized for Belkar?
    Yes, it's a one-handed 1d4 weapon for him (rather than a light 1d3 weapon), and he takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls with it.

  15. - Top - End - #735
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Skill checks in 3.5 arenít an automatic failure on a 1 or an automatic success on a 20. Is Concentration an exception to that rule?
    I had forgotten that 1 wasn't an automatic failure for skill checks.


    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Righto, a +5 dagger of collision, assuming Belkar has Str 17 (highest possibility given on front page)...

    4 (dagger) + 5 (+5 enhancement) + 5 (collision) + 3 (Str mod) = 17 damage (maximum).

    Concentration DC = 10 (base DC) + 17 (damage taken) = 27... which is admittedly way higher and much less useful than I was expecting. She failed all the other Concentration checks so I assumed the thrown dagger would be useful (negates Belkar using Power Attack to buff the DC), but perhaps not.

    Minrah is multiclass but is at least a 5th-level cleric (she's cast cure serious wounds). Presumably she only started investing in Concentration when she started cleric training, so she might have as few as 5 ranks in Concentration (or less). Even if she was casting defensively there's still a chance she'd provoke an attack of opportunity (though she'd have to roll a 1 or 2 to fail the DC 17 check to do so). However, this assumes she has no Constitution modifier, which seems unlikely.

    n.b. Isn't the dagger oversized for Belkar?
    However, as rferries pointed out, her failure on the Concentration check doesn't really bring any significant intel. In fact, if she had succeeded, we could suppose she had at least +6 modifier to the Concentration check (considering Belkar's minimum damage), so she probably would have at least 1 or 2 ranks.

    PS: Just a little correction to rferries math, the DC would be 10 + 2 (Spell level) + damage.
    Last edited by D.One; 2018-06-22 at 02:24 PM.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

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