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  1. - Top - End - #691
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Also, why is Durkon issuing verbal commands? Dominate is telepathic... unless he's simply doing so to relay orders to the spawn that are actually controlling the individual PCs.
    I believe it's in order for us, the audience, to see the commands.
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  2. - Top - End - #692
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Setting it back up so he can continue cosplaying 'Xykon in the throne room'.
    Ha!

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    I believe it's in order for us, the audience, to see the commands.
    Ah good point.

  3. - Top - End - #693
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    So, we know Hilgya's at least 13th level (has cast 7th-level spells). Spells cast today that we are certain of:

    7th - empowered flame strike, greater scrying
    4th - chaos hammer, death ward, restoration
    1st - entropise water

    Going by the two 7th-level spells, she is either 13th level with 24+ Wisdom, 14th level (coincindentally matches Durkon's level, pre-vampirism), or 13th level with access to a domain granting greater scrying as a 7th-level spell (least likely option IMHO).

    Any 4th- and especially 7th-level spells she casts now will be useful for pinpointing her minimum level, her other domain (she definitely has Chaos), and/or her Wisdom score.

    Bonus
    She most likely summoned all the anarchic giraffes with one casting of summon monster V, which isn't helpful for calculating her level.

    She may have cast death ward an additional time on Blackwing (another 4th-level spell slot).

    Her turn undead level calculation has been omitted from this, given that it clearly involves a non-Core ruling.
    Reposting this to add that she's cast flame strike again, probably as a 5th-level non-Empowered spell. Of course since she didn't say it out loud she obviously has the Silent Spell feat.

  4. - Top - End - #694
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Reposting this to add that she's cast flame strike again, probably as a 5th-level non-Empowered spell. Of course since she didn't say it out loud she obviously has the Silent Spell feat.
    I've been thinking: imagine if Greg orders Hylgia to "use your best spell against them" and she has Word of Chaos (Chaos Domain 7th level spell) prepared.

    That spell causes all the nonchaotic creatures in a 40-ft.- radius spread centered on the caster to be deafened (HD = caster level); deafened and stunned (HD = caster level - 1); deafened, stunned and confused (HD = caster level - 5); or deafened, stunned, confused and killed (HD = caster level - 10).

    First, there's Kudzu. Unless he is Chaotic and Hylgia knows he is Chaotic (she can have cast spells for such), she will probably not want to cast a spell that would kill him if he's affected. New save.

    Second, she may, OTOH, think he is Chaotic (having presumed so and never bottered to check if it's true) and cast it. If he's Neutral (or Unaligned Yet, if you prefer this way to put it), he would be obliterated by the spell, which would be a massive trauma. New save. (That's harsh, I don't really think Rich would go that way).

    Third. A Word of Chaos would probably wreck havoc even more among the vampires than among the Order, because:

    Haley, Elan and Belkar: Chaotic, not affected
    V: probably not affected due to having HD greater than Hylgia's caster level. V is 16th level, and Hylgia is probably caster 14-15, since she would get a +1 caster level to Chaos spells from her Chaos Domains power. Even if she is 15th level, and therefore casts Chaos spells at 16th level, being deafened isn't going to matter that much for an uncounscious V.
    Blackwing: same HD as V, due to being a familiar. Almost the same situation, except that being deaf will matter a little more.
    Bloodfeast: maybe killed, or just deafened, stunned and confused, depending on if he passed the 24h later Will save from Baleful Polymorph.
    Minrah: probably deafened, stunned and confused
    Roy: probably deafened, maybe stunned, depending on levels.

    The vampires, OTOH, are probably mostly nonchaotic, and the spawn would be obliterated.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
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    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
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  5. - Top - End - #695
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Based on the Giant's past statements, I think OotS treats young children as having the same alignment as their mother until they grow old enough to have an alignment of their own.
    Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?

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  6. - Top - End - #696
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Been thinking... did the Bear's Endurance got dispelled? If not, V is one Dispel or one "end of duration" away of dying.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

  7. - Top - End - #697
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Been thinking... did the Bear's Endurance got dispelled? If not, V is one Dispel or one "end of duration" away of dying.
    Somewhat unlikely, given that V's Mind Blank seems to have held.
    Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?

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  8. - Top - End - #698
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post
    Somewhat unlikely, given that V's Mind Blank seems to have held.
    How do we know the Mind Blank held? V could have either not been targeted yet or made hir Will Save (unsurprising, given hir bonus).
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  9. - Top - End - #699
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    How do we know the Mind Blank held? V could have either not been targeted yet or made hir Will Save (unsurprising, given hir bonus).
    The "evidence" until now seems to be that V didn't mention it being dispelled when he listed the dispelled spells to Roy. It's still a weak evidence, however, since she could have just omitted it, both to give a quicker brief to Roy and to not give the Vamps the information that he was now vulnerable (even with a high Will save) to domination (V's learned the power of hearing, twice).
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

  10. - Top - End - #700
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    The "evidence" until now seems to be that V didn't mention it being dispelled when he listed the dispelled spells to Roy. It's still a weak evidence, however, since she could have just omitted it, both to give a quicker brief to Roy and to not give the Vamps the information that he was now vulnerable (even with a high Will save) to domination (V's learned the power of hearing, twice).
    Itís also totally plausible, though, given the way that the dispelling rules work, and that V is almost surely a higher level caster than most of the dispellers. I believe if they did area dispels, they each dispelled at most one of Vís buffs too, so itís relatively likely that not all of Vís buffs were taken out. We canít prove it because at least one of them might have targeted V, giving them a chance to dispel each of hir buffs, though.

  11. - Top - End - #701
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    I was looking at Rich's tweets, and saw the wallpaper in which the Order is fighting some Fire Hydra or some Fire Serpents in a cave. I've noticed V is using some Hand spell to block a fire breath, which made me think if this can be considered somehow evidence that V has "Bugsby's Interposing Hand".



    Edit: oops, re-reading the spell, I've saw that Grasping Hand can do everything Interposing Hand does...
    Last edited by D.One; 2018-06-13 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Add info
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

  12. - Top - End - #702
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Soooo.... how are we going to handle Ponchula's statement that she helped speed-build the spawn? Was the quick-vamp spell made accessible to all clerics of Hel (rather than just clerics of Nergal) once Greg learned it from the staff? Also, did the vampire clerics have enough time to rest and prepare spells after the fight at the Godsmoot?

  13. - Top - End - #703
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Soooo.... how are we going to handle Ponchula's statement that she helped speed-build the spawn? Was the quick-vamp spell made accessible to all clerics of Hel (rather than just clerics of Nergal) once Greg learned it from the staff? Also, did the vampire clerics have enough time to rest and prepare spells after the fight at the Godsmoot?
    It's been a couple days since the Godsmoot, so yes, they've had time to rest and prepare spells.

    It's not clear if Ponchula learned how to cast the spell by studying or if Hel gave it to her directly, but I'd guess the former - it's not obvious to me why Greg, who was not the first person to learn how to cast the spell, would need to research it, but Ponchula wouldn't (unless being a worshipper of Hel means that once you learn a spell, every other member of your church can instantly prepare it normally, without study). I'm guessing that having Greg's advice would speed along the learning process, though (indeed, he would have to help, since the staff no longer exists).
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  14. - Top - End - #704
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    I was looking at Rich's tweets, and saw the wallpaper in which the Order is fighting some Fire Hydra or some Fire Serpents in a cave. I've noticed V is using some Hand spell to block a fire breath, which made me think if this can be considered somehow evidence that V has "Bugsby's Interposing Hand".



    Edit: oops, re-reading the spell, I've saw that Grasping Hand can do everything Interposing Hand does...
    We're I building Vaarsuvius as an NPC for a campaign, I would have no trouble giving her interposing hand as a 5th-level spell in her spell book. It makes that much sense to me that a wizard would research her way up to a spell's higher-level versions from its lower-level ones. Unfortunately, it's not actually a requirement.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2018-06-14 at 07:03 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #705
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    It's been a couple days since the Godsmoot, so yes, they've had time to rest and prepare spells.

    It's not clear if Ponchula learned how to cast the spell by studying or if Hel gave it to her directly, but I'd guess the former - it's not obvious to me why Greg, who was not the first person to learn how to cast the spell, would need to research it, but Ponchula wouldn't (unless being a worshipper of Hel means that once you learn a spell, every other member of your church can instantly prepare it normally, without study). I'm guessing that having Greg's advice would speed along the learning process, though (indeed, he would have to help, since the staff no longer exists).
    D&D 3.5 Rules for Spell Research are pretty much confined to less than a page in the Dungeon Master's Guide. As it has been said, most of the proccess is thought with arcane casters (mostly wizards) in mind, and other classes (specially divine ones) give a hard time for the DM to fit them in. I believe the best answer for

    "How spell research works for Clerics? If a Cleric of god X researches spell Y, does he have to teach the spell for each other cleric, or he delivers the spell to his god and the deity now can give it to any other of its clerics?"

    is "Ask your DM. Whatever he or she says is the rule."

    So, only The Giant can answer our doubts and prayers here.


    Spoiler: Back to DMG, however, the most relevant part is this:
    Show

    A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell. The research to do this requires access to a well-stocked library, typically in a large city or metropolis. Research requires an expenditure of 1,000 gp per week and takes one week per level of the spell. This money goes into fees, consultants, material component experimentation, and other miscellaneous expenditures. At the end of that time, the character makes a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that roll succeeds, the character learns the new spell if her research produced a viable spell. If the roll fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying. [...]


    Ok, first thing to notice: The Giant is disregarding the time requirement stated. In both situations in which Durkon (and Greg) used Spell Research (Mass Death Ward and Accelerate Vampire Creation, or however you want to call it), it took days, not weeks, to research the spell.

    Well... I was going to start throwing hypotheses here about the mechanics of this, but... I realize it's moot, I mean, mooter than usual, because the only RAW source I have to base my hipotheses is too vague. Ok, I'll go with "Ask the DM".
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

  16. - Top - End - #706
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    D&D 3.5 Rules for Spell Research are pretty much confined to less than a page in the Dungeon Master's Guide. As it has been said, most of the proccess is thought with arcane casters (mostly wizards) in mind, and other classes (specially divine ones) give a hard time for the DM to fit them in. I believe the best answer for

    "How spell research works for Clerics? If a Cleric of god X researches spell Y, does he have to teach the spell for each other cleric, or he delivers the spell to his god and the deity now can give it to any other of its clerics?"

    is "Ask your DM. Whatever he or she says is the rule."

    So, only The Giant can answer our doubts and prayers here.


    Spoiler: Back to DMG, however, the most relevant part is this:
    Show

    A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell. The research to do this requires access to a well-stocked library, typically in a large city or metropolis. Research requires an expenditure of 1,000 gp per week and takes one week per level of the spell. This money goes into fees, consultants, material component experimentation, and other miscellaneous expenditures. At the end of that time, the character makes a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that roll succeeds, the character learns the new spell if her research produced a viable spell. If the roll fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying. [...]


    Ok, first thing to notice: The Giant is disregarding the time requirement stated. In both situations in which Durkon (and Greg) used Spell Research (Mass Death Ward and Accelerate Vampire Creation, or however you want to call it), it took days, not weeks, to research the spell.

    Well... I was going to start throwing hypotheses here about the mechanics of this, but... I realize it's moot, I mean, mooter than usual, because the only RAW source I have to base my hipotheses is too vague. Ok, I'll go with "Ask the DM".
    We can at least use the latest strip to make an educated guess about the mechanics of the spell. The vampire says she burned several spells, which probably means it's one cast per vampire or spawn. It's also probably not a very low-level spell (certainly no lower than Animate Dead), because why would she worry about burning spells of that level when this combat has seen nothing cast under 3rd level so far on the vampires' side?
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  17. - Top - End - #707
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    We can at least use the latest strip to make an educated guess about the mechanics of the spell. The vampire says she burned several spells, which probably means it's one cast per vampire or spawn. It's also probably not a very low-level spell (certainly no lower than Animate Dead), because why would she worry about burning spells of that level when this combat has seen nothing cast under 3rd level so far on the vampires' side?
    About the spell's effect, I'd say it probably has a "Touch" range, since we've seem Malack touch Durkon with the staff in order to accelerate his "unbirth", and that it probably has a rate of one spell per creature, meaning multiple vamps means multiple castings.

    That said, about the spell's level, I'd say it's probably no lower than 3rd level for Cleric, which is Animate Dead's level, and probably no higher than Create Undead, 6th level.

    It has advantages over Animate Undead, since the kind of Undead it "creates" is much more powerful. OTOH, it doesn't really creates the undead. The caster must have an "already in proccess of becoming undead" body, and it only hastens the proccess, maybe with an influx of negative energy. That's quite a limitation for a non-vampire caster. All in all, I'd say the spell is 3rd or 4th level, probably 4th. It's high enough to require certain level of power and for Ponchula to feel that it was a huge investment, but not high enough for them to be depleted of their most powerful spells.

    Edit: Maybe it's 5th level, closer to Create Undead. All the rationale I posted fits a 5th level spell.
    Last edited by D.One; 2018-06-14 at 09:16 AM.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
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    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
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  18. - Top - End - #708
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    You can also learn a new spell from a scroll, so the Giant may be extending that to the staff. At least, it's a reasonable interpretation of the rules (such as they are).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    You can also learn a new spell from a scroll, so the Giant may be extending that to the staff. At least, it's a reasonable interpretation of the rules (such as they are).
    And, again, RAW leaves us orphans because all the mechanics of "learning from a scroll" is meant for wizards. Does anybody know any rulebook that expands on Spell Research beyond that small part of DMG.

    I personally like some of the premises in Epic Level Handbook for creating Epic Spells, but they are too expensive and hard, and should be somehow toned down to be appropriate for non-Epic spells.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

  20. - Top - End - #710
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    And, again, RAW leaves us orphans because all the mechanics of "learning from a scroll" is meant for wizards. Does anybody know any rulebook that expands on Spell Research beyond that small part of DMG.
    Well, the SRD does say that, having researched a spell, a divine caster can then "share it with others".

    I would quite happily read that as it's quite possible he's "given" it to Hel, and *any* Cleric of Hel with an appropriate level can now prepare/cast it. [By extension, via the Domain Agreement, even Minrah and Hilgya may be able to cast it. But they (a) wouldn't know that and (b) have no reason whatsoever to actually do so. Well, domination notwithstanding.] At the very least, we can explicitly say he's given it to Ponchella and skip any need for her to research.
    Last edited by Reboot; 2018-06-14 at 08:10 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #711
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    I'm going to go against the grain and suggest that the spell may be as low as 2nd or 3rd level, to compare with gentle repose. It's not actually creating an undead creature (as with animate or create undead), merely speeding up the process.

  22. - Top - End - #712
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    Well, the SRD does say that, having researched a spell, a divine caster can then "share it with others".

    I would quite happily read that as it's quite possible he's "given" it to Hel, and *any* Cleric of Hel with an appropriate level can now prepare/cast it. [By extension, via the Domain Agreement, even Minrah and Hilgya may be able to cast it. But they (a) wouldn't know that and (b) have no reason whatsoever to actually do so. Well, domination notwithstanding.] At the very least, we can explicitly say he's given it to Ponchella and skip any need for her to research.
    My personal belief is that for a cleric to cast a spell, he must learn it (the rituals, the components) somehow. The regular pre-existing spells would be part of a Cleric's basic training, so he is able to cast them when he's able to deal with that amount of divine energy (at the appropriate level). New spells must at least be learnt somehow. Greg had to research the Insta-Vamp from the staff because Malack never taught him, so he had to analyze the spell and discover how it worked. For Ponchula, Greg just had to explain it. I also think that, being OotS a world where gods (or at least Hel) seem to talk directly with their followers more often, a god with Cleric levels could be taught the specifics of the spell and pass on the knowledge to other followers.


    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I'm going to go against the grain and suggest that the spell may be as low as 2nd or 3rd level, to compare with gentle repose. It's not actually creating an undead creature (as with animate or create undead), merely speeding up the process.
    It's also a possibility, a reasonably viable one, I must say, because they used Insta-Vamp 20+ times, and spell slots tend to become rare as their level grow.
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  23. - Top - End - #713
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    It's also a possibility, a reasonably viable one, I must say, because they used Insta-Vamp 20+ times, and spell slots tend to become rare as their level grow.
    I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other... could even be a high-level spell with multiple spawn per casting (e.g. 1 spawn per 3 caster levels, a la teleport). Cross-posting from Homebrew, here are some versions I just whipped up:

    I'm sure 3.5 equivalents already exist somewhere, but here are my takes. Protection from daylight is balanced against endure elements (1st-level spells protecting from environmental hazards), and rouse spawn is balanced against gentle repose (doesn't actually create an undead creature, just manipulates time periods involving corpses).

    Protection From Daylight
    Abjuration [Darkness]
    Level: Cleric 1, Sor/Wiz 1
    Components: V, S, DF
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: Creature touched
    Duration: 24 hours
    Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
    Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

    A wave of darkness briefly washes over you, then vanishes. You stride out of your tomb into the sunlight with confidence; your mortal prey will never suspect you are in fact one of the dreaded Nosferatu

    The touched creature is protected from the harmful effects of natural sunlight (due to the Daylight Powerlessness, Light Blindness, Light Sensitivity, Sunlight Powerlessness, or Vulnerability to Sunlight special qualities or any similar effect).

    Protection from daylight provides no special protection against magical light-based effects, and is countered and dispelled by any spell of equal or greater level with the [Light] descriptor.

    Rouse Spawn
    Necromancy [Evil]
    Level: Cleric 2, Sor/Wiz 3
    Components: V, S, DF
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: Dead creature touched; see text
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    A burst of negative energy flows from your touch, awakening your vampire progeny.

    Your touch instantly completes the transformation of a corpse into an undead creature, as per the Create Spawn ability of certain undead, a humanoid slain by a ghoul fever infection, a character slain by negative levels, or any similar effect. This spell simply hastens such a transformation; it has no effect on a corpse that would not otherwise arise as an undead creature.

  24. - Top - End - #714
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other... could even be a high-level spell with multiple spawn per casting (e.g. 1 spawn per 3 caster levels, a la teleport). Cross-posting from Homebrew, here are some versions I just whipped up:

    I'm sure 3.5 equivalents already exist somewhere, but here are my takes. Protection from daylight is balanced against endure elements (1st-level spells protecting from environmental hazards), and rouse spawn is balanced against gentle repose (doesn't actually create an undead creature, just manipulates time periods involving corpses).

    Protection From Daylight
    Abjuration [Darkness]
    Level: Cleric 1, Sor/Wiz 1
    Components: V, S, DF
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: Creature touched
    Duration: 24 hours
    Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
    Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

    A wave of darkness briefly washes over you, then vanishes. You stride out of your tomb into the sunlight with confidence; your mortal prey will never suspect you are in fact one of the dreaded Nosferatu

    The touched creature is protected from the harmful effects of natural sunlight (due to the Daylight Powerlessness, Light Blindness, Light Sensitivity, Sunlight Powerlessness, or Vulnerability to Sunlight special qualities or any similar effect).

    Protection from daylight provides no special protection against magical light-based effects, and is countered and dispelled by any spell of equal or greater level with the [Light] descriptor.

    Rouse Spawn
    Necromancy [Evil]
    Level: Cleric 2, Sor/Wiz 3
    Components: V, S, DF
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: Dead creature touched; see text
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    A burst of negative energy flows from your touch, awakening your vampire progeny.

    Your touch instantly completes the transformation of a corpse into an undead creature, as per the Create Spawn ability of certain undead, a humanoid slain by a ghoul fever infection, a character slain by negative levels, or any similar effect. This spell simply hastens such a transformation; it has no effect on a corpse that would not otherwise arise as an undead creature.
    Nice. I liked both.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Nice. I liked both.
    Many thanks!

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    That said, about the spell's level, I'd say it's probably no lower than 3rd level for Cleric, which is Animate Dead's level, and probably no higher than Create Undead, 6th level.
    Note that create undead has a one hour casting time, making it wholly unsuitable for combat usage (unlike animate dead's standard action).

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    It has advantages over Animate Undead, since the kind of Undead it "creates" is much more powerful. OTOH, it doesn't really creates the undead. The caster must have an "already in proccess of becoming undead" body, and it only hastens the proccess, maybe with an influx of negative energy. That's quite a limitation for a non-vampire caster.
    It's not a limitation with regards to estimating spell level, since a caster without access to a vampire won't have a reason to prepare it in the first place. Ideally, the design would account for the most likely users of an ability, not those who wouldn't get much out of it even if it was an orison that allowed one touch per round for 24 hours.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Many thanks!
    While I think these are basically well done, I think I disagree pretty strongly with your level choices. Your analogies (gentle repose and endure elements) make some sense if youíre thinking of the world scientifically and imagining that spells work on thermodynamics or something, but spell levels also have to account for game balance, and there I think they fail.

    Iíd argue that being able to endure elements and endure sunlight for a vampire are radically differentóthe sort of conditions that endure elements protects you from are not, generally of the ďthree rounds and you dieĒ variety. You could even make a case that itís stronger than 3rd level protection from energy in many ways (duration, and amount of damage absorbed), and while itís only useful if youíre a vampire, Iím not totally buying that being a major level penalty. Itís also kinda game-breaking since it removes one of the major drawbacks of a powerful creature/template.

    Similarly, gentle repose is relatively more mild in effect than letting you raise spawn quickly Iíd say.

    Anyway, I probably shouldnít derail this thread, since this isnít likely to yield anything that changes a statblpck around here, but Iím pretty sure those spells have to be higher level than youíve pegged them...

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    Iíd argue that being able to endure elements and endure sunlight for a vampire are radically differentóthe sort of conditions that endure elements protects you from are not, generally of the ďthree rounds and you dieĒ variety. You could even make a case that itís stronger than 3rd level protection from energy in many ways (duration, and amount of damage absorbed), and while itís only useful if youíre a vampire, Iím not totally buying that being a major level penalty. Itís also kinda game-breaking since it removes one of the major drawbacks of a powerful creature/template.
    For what it's worth, Pathfinder's version of protection from daylight, called protective penumbra, is 2nd-level and lasts 10 minutes per CL rather than the 1 hour per CL or 24 hours that protection from daylight seems to last in OOTS. Then again, it was first put out (on the devs' blog and not in a book) as a cantrip, and cantrips in that game can be spammed infinitely. Still, it would seem like 2nd or 3rd level is about the right level for protection from daylight.
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  29. - Top - End - #719
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    I would have pegged it as 4th level, personally. A spell that allows a vampire to remove its greatest weakness and which seems to last all day? Seems too powerful to put any lower. If it had a shorter duration and needed to be cast repeatedly then that would be a different story.

    Still, everyone seems to have different opinions on this, so maybe it's too subjective to really peg properly.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    maybe it's too subjective to really peg properly.
    Are you suggesting that 3.5 rules are slightly arbitrary and inconsistent? How dare you, lol!!

    Also, this is my early nomination for next thread title (although I think this thread takes itself about 20% too seriously for this to gain traction).

    The previous sentence (ďeveryone seems to have different opinions on thIsĒ) isnít bad either...
    Last edited by Ephemera; 2018-06-18 at 05:52 AM. Reason: Further thought

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