Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[unbeliever536]

So it seems to me there's only two options: that either Rich Burlew forgot how he made Belkar's Protection from Evil work, OR he's hinting that Belkar's alignment already changed between 996 and 1105 (Belkar's sigh of relief in 1105 can be a sigh of "The vampires are gone, good" instead of "Good, discomfort is gone", and the look of anger and pain after waking up in 1130 could be explained as "pain from being almost dead, anger at the vampires, waking up because the nonlethal damage recovered while under mind control but wasn't given any extra orders to get up, so when the Protection removed the control he got up" instead of ").

Personally, I now find 1105 and 1130 to both be conclusive evidence that Belkar is no longer CE, because the Protection from Evil item is no longer affecting him the same way. It fits with the theme of the comic, Belkar's character progression, foils nicely with both Hilgya, and fits with Durkon*'s recent storyline. I fully expect Belkar and Durkon to discuss it as soon as the dwarf comes back to the land of the living.

Or, whatever causes the smoke is a repeated (as opposed to continuous) effect distinct from the discomfort Belkar feels due to the clasp, or the pain gradually becomes more debilitating the longer the clasp is active, or (least likely) Belkar is somehow acclimating to its effects in a way that isn't related to his alignment shifting.

[Quartz]

Does #1134 confirm that Minrah is / was a cleric of Thor? While I always assumed she was, I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated.

[unbeliever536]

Does #1134 confirm that Minrah is / was a cleric of Thor? While I always assumed she was, I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated.

I don't believe it was ever said directly, but it was never really plausible that a cleric of some other god would be one of the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes of Thor.

[Quartz]

I don't believe it was ever said directly, but it was never really plausible that a cleric of some other god would be one of the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes of Thor.

Yes, but she might have been a cleric of one of the other members of the pantheon either visiting on her own account or forced there by the vampire attack. Remember that there were three in that strip and the utterer of that phrase was one of the other two.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She also wields a warhammer, the chosen weapon of Thor. Not, say a sword like Heimdall or Tyr (the other war gods a former soldier might be drawn to).

[Reboot]

And she's the one to dub them possible enemies of Thor, even if they weren't vampires.

[Quartz]

And she's the one to dub them possible enemies of Thor, even if they weren't vampires.

Actually, the clincher - which I missed - is later on that page where Elan identifies her as a priestess of Thor.

[King of Nowhere]

Probably it has been brought out before...

haley is listed as having a dex of 20-21. it links a post by the giant stating that she has a +5 in an antimagic field. Given that she's level 16, it would make no sense for her to not have any buff to her dexterity, so it's certainly higher.

Roy, on the other hand, is listed as having a str of 29 (same as ice giant, and let's not consider here that the specific ice giant he was referring to was very likely to have stats different from average), which certainly include the belt of giant strenght.

I say you can't present unmodified stats and enhanced stats the same way. Otherwise one may think that haley, barring magic items, has no real dex whatsoever. Or that she's completely lacking any dex-enhancement item. No, the fact that the specific score is without any enhancement bonus has to be written somewhere.

Not to mention, that was at level 12. Now she's level 16, so she got another +1 that she very likely spent in dexterity. If anything, it shhould be 21-22 now. That's longer and more nitpicky, so no need to write it in full. But at least should be tweaked 20-22

In the end, I'd rewrite haley's dex as "20-22 base, unknown enhancement bonus"

[Rogar Demonblud]

That would actually be "No known enhancement bonus", because we have no proof there is an enhancement bonus item.

[King of Nowhere]

That would actually be "No known enhancement bonus", because we have no proof there is an enhancement bonus item.

That's a different thing. In the other cases, we actually know the score to be the sum of base and whatever bonus they have. It's the score they use when they go adventuring. In the case of haley, we know the base score, but we don't know the actual score she has when fully geared.
They are just different pieces of information.

And there are many characters where we do not know the enhancement bonus. For example, durkon is listed having a +6 wisdom, and we don't have any proof whether he's wearing an amulet of wisdom or if he just found the right manual. but it's not written "no enhancement bonus known" in his case, because only the total is used.

[b_jonas]

Actually, the clincher - which I missed - is later on that page where Elan identifies her as a priestess of Thor.

Elan has identified himself as a mighty wizard and a priest of Banjo, as well as identified Malack (actually a cleric) as the lizard Grim Reaper, all while he has admitted that he doesn't even have that spell. I'm not sure how much we can believe him. I'm actually more willing to trust Roy's words about how he's met “your high priestess at the Godsmoot” to Minrah, referring to #1024. In that comic, the high priestess says that Durkon had written a letter to him, making it clear that he's the high priestess of Thor.

[Smurfton]

In #1105, Belkar is surrounded by vampire mist the panel before deactivation of his clasp, and in #1131, he is standing next to the dispersing ashes of Greg. Rob may have avoided using the smoke effect to avoid confusion with mist form, especially in 1131, where it would suggest that Greg lived.

I'd say the lack of smoke isn't strong evidence unless there aren't any vampires in the room.

[Kurald Galain]

Added level 14, wis 24 to Hilgya because of her 7th level spells cast. Added mind blank to V. Removed Roy being level 11 in strip 251 when he is L12 in strip 250. And marked Greg as deceased, moving his items back to Durkon. Note that a few of the smilies have disappeared because of hosting issues.

Maybe the statblock for Roy which says "Starmetal Greatsword" with links, can be split - one link leading to Starmetal, one link leading to Greatsword?

Certainly.

Also, we now have online evidence for V having Greater Invisibility (in 1051), so we don't need to rely on SSDT.

Also yes.

[MultitudeMan]

Added level 14, wis 24 to Hilgya because of her 7th level spells cast. Added mind blank to V. Removed Roy being level 11 in strip 251 when he is L12 in strip 250.

I may be dense here, but how does strip 250 demonstrate that Roy is level 12? Also, V is listed as having Arcane Eye, should this be Arcane Sight? Strip 693 seems to be demonstrating Arcane Sight.

[Smurfton]

I may be dense here, but how does strip 250 demonstrate that Roy is level 12? Also, V is listed as having Arcane Eye, should this be Arcane Sight? Strip 693 seems to be demonstrating Arcane Sight.

Apparently it's based on the amount of experience they would receive being enough for the levels. Someone did the math somewhere in one in these threads.

[MultitudeMan]

This may well have been discussed before, but how did Elan retrain a spell to Cure Critical Wounds already? I thought he would need to be able to cast level 6 spells to retrain a level 4?

[b_jonas]

Care to explain how either of those make any more sense than n"the clasp causes him pain as it has been established and that woke him up?" Because from where I'm sitting, that seems more like wishful thinking than anything presented in-comic.

The precedent is #281, in which Belkar knocks out Miko with non-fatal damage by hitting her with a blunt object, but Miko still has lots of hit points, and she wakes up from the pain when Belkar deals her further damage by throwing a dagger.

Update: fixed as GW pointed out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The precedent is #281, in which Belkar knocks out Miko with non-fatal damage by hitting him her with a blunt object, but Miko still has lots of hit points, and he she wakes up from the pain when Belkar deals him her further damage by throwing a dagger.

*her, *she, *her.

Grey Wolf

[MultitudeMan]

So, how long do we think it'll be before the Giant moves on from all this excellently-written plot fluff with dead Durkon, and gets back to the living, with the possibility of more lovely D&D crunch?

[Peelee]

The precedent is #281, in which Belkar knocks out Miko with non-fatal damage by hitting her with a blunt object, but Miko still has lots of hit points, and she wakes up from the pain when Belkar deals her further damage by throwing a dagger.

Update: fixed as GW pointed out.

So external source causing physical pain. That makes the alternates seem even more like wishful thinking.

[Quartz]

This may well have been discussed before, but how did Elan retrain a spell to Cure Critical Wounds already? I thought he would need to be able to cast level 6 spells to retrain a level 4?

The relevant paragraph from the SRD is here:

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

So either retraining spells is part of the Dashing Swordsman prestige class, or the Dashing Swordsman prestige class advances Bardic spellcasting and Elan was Bard 14 / Dashing Swordsman 1+ and decided to take another level of Bard (having only 15 levels of Bard but having the casting ability of 16+ levels.

[Peelee]

The relevant paragraph from the SRD is here:



So either retraining spells is part of the Dashing Swordsman prestige class, or the Dashing Swordsman prestige class advances Bardic spellcasting and Elan was Bard 14 / Dashing Swordsman 1+ and decided to take another level of Bard (having only 15 levels of Bard but having the casting ability of 16+ levels.

My gold is on "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" for spells per day/level being in the Dashing Swordsman block.

[MultitudeMan]

So either retraining spells is part of the Dashing Swordsman prestige class, or the Dashing Swordsman prestige class advances Bardic spellcasting and Elan was Bard 14 / Dashing Swordsman 1+ and decided to take another level of Bard (having only 15 levels of Bard but having the casting ability of 16+ levels.

But doesn't Elan only get to retrain upon gaining Bard 14 and Bard 17? I suppose he could technically be Bard 17/Dashing Swordsman 1 for the "giants" fight on the airship, but that's an awful lot of XP he'd have had to pick up before then! Unless DS advances Bard casting as you suggest, and he advanced from Bard 13/DS 2 to Bard 14/DS 2 to retrain? Of course, we haven't actually seen him casting any level 6 spells :( .

[Peelee]

If that was the case, Elan wouldn't have taken a bard level so that he could learn healing spells.

Most likely he stayed at bard level 12 until shortly before the strip I linked, had just reached bard level 13 there (absolutely required to gain two fifth-level spells known while also gaining a new fourth-level spell known), switched out a spell for Cure Critical Wounds when he reached bard level 14, and is currently a Bard 14/Dashing Swordsman 2-3. With the spellcasting of a Bard 14.

Welp, a fool and his gold are soon parted, it seems.

[zimmerwald1915]

Update: fixed as GW pointed out.

Darn. And I was so sure you were making some kind of point by inverting every gendered pronoun all the time.

[MultitudeMan]

If that was the case, Elan wouldn't have taken a bard level so that he could learn healing spells.

Most likely he stayed at bard level 12 until shortly before the strip I linked, had just reached bard level 13 there (absolutely required to gain two fifth-level spells known while also gaining a new fourth-level spell known), switched out a spell for Cure Critical Wounds when he reached bard level 14, and is currently a Bard 14/Dashing Swordsman 2-3. With the spellcasting of a Bard 14.

The only problem with this is that, barring a house rule, Elan needed the ability to cast sixth-level spells to retrain a fourth level spell, which he didn't have at his Bard 14 retrain, unless something else (like his DS levels) enabled it. I agree he must have just taken Bard 13 for strip 647 to work.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which also hints that he has more than one level in Dashing Swordsman, if he's keeping up with the group powercurve.

[Quartz]

Whoops! I've got my level numbers slightly adrift. Elan needs to be a 14th level Bard to retrain but a 16th level caster to get 6th level spells. So, just before retraining he's Bard 13 / DS 2+ and he takes Bard for his next level becoming Bard 14 / DS 2+.

If the Dashing Swordsman class is modelled after the Eldritch Knight then I'll note that the latter class does not get +1 level of spellcasting on the first level.

[Aeson]

In order to retrain a fourth-level spell, Elan must by RAW have the ability to cast sixth-level spells. Do we feel that the ability to cast sixth-level spells is:
- Meeting the attribute requirement (16+ Charisma)
- Having a sixth-level spell slot (22+ Charisma, or Bard 17)
- Knows, or can know, a sixth-level spell (Bard 16 and 22+ Charisma, or Bard 17)
- Some combination of the above

Elan must have had at least 20 Charisma in order to learn two fifth-level spells at Bard 13, so he clearly met the attribute requirement for casting a sixth-level spell if he knew one and had a slot of the appropriate level, and with +2 Charisma from the belt he picked up in Sandsedge he'd also have a sixth-level slot. Elan has therefore had the theoretical ability to cast sixth-level spells since 675 at the latest. Do we consider that the lack of practical ability (i.e. knowledge of at least one sixth-level spell) is enough to prevent Elan from qualifying as "able to cast sixth-level spells" by RAW, or is theoretical ability sufficient?

If theoretical ability to cast sixth-level spells is sufficient and Elan picked up the belt in Sandsedge before reaching Bard 14 or has 22+ Charisma naturally, then it is not necessary for Dashing Swordsman to advance Bardic spellcasting to explain why he was able to retrain a spell to Cure Critical Wounds.

[MultitudeMan]

In order to retrain a fourth-level spell, Elan must by RAW have the ability to cast sixth-level spells. Do we feel that the ability to cast sixth-level spells is:
- Meeting the attribute requirement (16+ Charisma)
- Having a sixth-level spell slot (22+ Charisma, or Bard 17)
- Knows, or can know, a sixth-level spell (Bard 16 and 22+ Charisma, or Bard 17)
- Some combination of the above

Elan must have had at least 20 Charisma in order to learn two fifth-level spells at Bard 13, so he clearly met the attribute requirement for casting a sixth-level spell if he knew one and had a slot of the appropriate level, and with +2 Charisma from the belt he picked up in Sandsedge he'd also have a sixth-level slot. Elan has therefore had the theoretical ability to cast sixth-level spells since 675 at the latest. Do we consider that the lack of practical ability (i.e. knowledge of at least one sixth-level spell) is enough to prevent Elan from qualifying as "able to cast sixth-level spells" by RAW, or is theoretical ability sufficient?

If theoretical ability to cast sixth-level spells is sufficient and Elan picked up the belt in Sandsedge before reaching Bard 14 or has 22+ Charisma naturally, then it is not necessary for Dashing Swordsman to advance Bardic spellcasting to explain why he was able to retrain a spell to Cure Critical Wounds.

How does 22+ Charisma on its own give a sixth-level spell slot? I may be misreading the SRD table on spells per day and spells known, but it looks like you don't get the slot until the appropriate level, no matter how high the CHA is.

Also, the literal relevant sentence in the SRD is "The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast." Since it refers to "the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast", rather than "the highest level of bard spell the bard qualifies for", I think your RAW fails, but it's a valiant attempt!