Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[D.One]

- Then also it works like dominate spell caste at lvl 12. Well that spell does NOT require you to keep using actions to control the dominate person. It specifically says : "If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically. Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description)."

see these 3 links
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm

So I definitely could still be wrong, but am I reading gaze attack wrong? you think a gaze attack is limited to one target? You think that if you caste dominate and give a command then you keep having to use actions to keep the subject doing those commands? NOW I AGREE that is NOT how the giant plays vampires.. it is single target.

Both Grey_Wolf_c and Jasdoif already shown that the case here is that you are reading the general gaze attack rules, instead of the specific rules for Vampiric Dominate in RAW. DnD gives a lot of emphasis on "specific trumphs general", so, the way Rich is playing vampiric dominate until now is pretty much the way it is by RAW.

The other thing I think maybe you misunderstood in the discussions is that the vamps indeed don't need to keep spending actions to command each dominated person all the time. The standard action is needed to use the power that establishes the domination. Once dominated, the link is there, and the creature is dominated, and will follow the orders given.

Notice that Dominate Person states that

Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).

Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action.

So, once the vamp gave the order, he didn't need to concentrate on the dominated person in order for that person keep obeying, but he will need to use a move action in order to change the command given.

[unbeliever536]

Area dispels don't affect magic items, only magical effects; the dispel would have to be a targeted dispel aimed at Belkar's clasp and nothing else. But if that were to happen: yes, either type of item would have its magical properties suppressed for 1d4 rounds if the dispel check against it succeeded.

Activated items that produce spell effects...produce spell effects, and those are vulnerable to area dispels.

We never saw Belkar with his PoE aura, nor did we see any indication of the discomfort he feels from it. I think it's more likely that he simply took Hilgya's offered Protection from Law, which would have been dispelled just fine.

[D.One]

We never saw Belkar with his PoE aura, nor did we see any indication of the discomfort he feels from it. I think it's more likely that he simply took Hilgya's offered Protection from Law, which would have been dispelled just fine.

Re-reading V's entry here, and came up with a question: what happens when someone is affected by two different enchantment effects?

V has Dominate Person, and, even better, has Mass Suggestion (and we've already seen how crafty V can be wording his suggestions - "do nothing until I say otherwise"). Couldn't she use one of these enchantments on his allies in order to counterbalance the Vamp's dominate?

[Jasdoif]

Re-reading V's entry here, and came up with a question: what happens when someone is affected by two different enchantment effects?

That depends on what the effects are doing:

Multiple Mental Control Effects
Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Given that Vaarsuvius is on the low Charisma side, and the vampire template gives a Charisma boost; I think the most effective use of such an ability by Vaarsuvius would be to choose weaker methods to follow the vampires' orders with (the "I'm immune to your best attacks, you better do something else!" approach).

[zimmerwald1915]

Re-reading V's entry here, and came up with a question: what happens when someone is affected by two different enchantment effects?

V has Dominate Person, and, even better, has Mass Suggestion (and we've already seen how crafty V can be wording his suggestions - "do nothing until I say otherwise"). Couldn't she use one of these enchantments on his allies in order to counterbalance the Vamp's dominate?

Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Neither Durkon nor Vaarsuvius is renowned for their Charisma, but vampires get a bonus.

[b_jonas]

That depends on what the effects are doing:

Multiple Mental Control Effects
Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Oh wow! I didn't know there was a specific rule for this. I just assumed that would get into the ugly territory of the timestamping rules, where generally only the latest mind control effect will work, but the other mind control effects remain and can still work if the later one expires, and the vampires could spend an action to dominate the player characters again for a new mind control effect overriding Vaarsuvius's.

[D.One]

That depends on what the effects are doing:Given that Vaarsuvius is on the low Charisma side, and the vampire template gives a Charisma boost; I think the most effective use of such an ability by Vaarsuvius would be to choose weaker methods to follow the vampires' orders with (the "I'm immune to your best attacks, you better do something else!" approach).

Or "I suggest that you activate your itens that protect against mind control"

[rferries]

Or "I suggest that you activate your itens that protect against mind control"

Incidentally, are we ruling that Belkar's ring has only been suppressed for 1d4 rounds, and will reactivate automatically?

[Coyotezcrazy]

Or "I suggest that you activate your itens that protect against mind control"

I have faith in V. After all, Mind Blank can be cast twice per day... (See Oots #1091)

[Doug Lampert]

Incidentally, are we ruling that Belkar's ring has only been suppressed for 1d4 rounds, and will reactivate automatically?

No.
1) The ring was not active.
2) The ring was not specifically targetted, so it isn't suppressed at all.
3) If the ring had been active, it casts a spell, and that spell would have been put down, requiring an action by Belkar to activate it, which, being dominated, Belkar will not take.

[D.One]

I have faith in V. After all, Mind Blank can be cast twice per day... (See Oots #1091)

It already have been cast twice. One on V and one on Roy.

[Jasdoif]

Or "I suggest that you activate your itens that protect against mind control"

Looking forward to those opposed Charisma checks, are you? If Haley and/or Elan had items that protected against mind control, the extra chances would make for a better gamble; but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[fenfire]

The "ring" isn't even a ring.

Imagine there is no ring. Sorry, couldn't resist.

[unbeliever536]

The "ring" isn't even a ring.

Actually, his feather falling item is most plausibly a ring. It was probably not dispelled, though.

[Ephemera]

No.
1) The ring was not active.
2) The ring was not specifically targetted, so it isn't suppressed at all.
3) If the ring had been active, it casts a spell, and that spell would have been put down, requiring an action by Belkar to activate it, which, being dominated, Belkar will not take.

Also
4) We don’t make rulings on what’s going on mechanically unless it affects our best-guess statblocks
5) we don’t technically make rulings at all, just work to achieve consensus.

:P

(Too lazy to use proper smile face from my phone)

[rferries]

The "ring" isn't even a ring.

Yes, sorry - clasp then.

Also, what happens if one of the dominating monsters is slain? Is the corresponding character released, or do they continue to carry out the vampire's last orders until the effect wears off in a few hours?

[unbeliever536]

By Roy's estimation, the sword has three powers (as of #1078): the green fire damage boost (which is especially good against undead, but is general, and is called out by Roy as something he can now control), the full heal, and the throw-and-return.

Missed one: Roy's sword is also able to remove buffs on one occasion.

[MartianInvader]

Missed one: Roy's sword is also able to remove buffs on one occasion.

Are you talking about Hel's might? Couldn't it just have run out of duration? I count a good 5 standard actions taken by Durkula while it was active.

[Jasdoif]

Also, what happens if one of the dominating monsters is slain? Is the corresponding character released, or do they continue to carry out the vampire's last orders until the effect wears off in a few hours?

With nothing indicating that the effect ends prematurely, there's no reason to assume the effect would end prematurely. Without outside interference, the dominate person effect would continue as normal: the last command given would be followed for 5 days (vampire spawn) or 12 days (vampire), unless the character makes the daily save (since the destroyed creature is in no position to concentrate on the effect to prevent that save).

[Quartz]

In #1122 the vampires seem to have done very well on their Dispel checks. We see all five being successful. Does this tell us anything?

[Jasdoif]

In #1122 the vampires seem to have done very well on their Dispel checks. We see all five being successful. Does this tell us anything?

That area dispels were able to remove a few buffs each from affected creature hasn't really told us much, no.

That Vaarsuvius lost stoneskin, overland flight, and death ward would necessitate some possibilities....Namely that one of the greater dispel magics was targeted at Vaarsuvius specifically, and/or that at least one of the dispel magic casters is higher than the minimum caster level 5 for the spell, and/or that Hilgya's caster level is less than 15. That's too broad a set to really glean any information out of at this point, though.

[Aeson]

That Vaarsuvius lost stoneskin, overland flight, and death ward would necessitate some possibilities....Namely that one of the greater dispel magics was targeted at Vaarsuvius specifically, and/or that at least one of the dispel magic casters is higher than the minimum caster level 5 for the spell, and/or that Hilgya's caster level is less than 15. That's too broad a set to really glean any information out of at this point, though.

Technically, Vaarsuvius might not have lost Death Ward. "My Stoneskin and Miss Firehelm's Death Ward were also [dispelled]" can certainly mean "the Stoneskin cast on me by me and the Death Ward cast on me by Miss Firehelm," but it is equally grammatically correct to interpret it as "the Stoneskin affecting me and the Death Ward affecting Miss Firehelm."

Granted, Vaarsuvius is the only one we know to have been under a Death Ward effect, so the former is more likely than the latter, and it's perhaps also a bit of a stretch to assume that Hilgya prepared two Death Wards without knowing that Durkon had become a vampire, but strictly speaking we can't yet be certain that Vaarsuvius is no longer protected by a Death Ward. It's likely, but it's not yet definite.

[halfeye]

Yeah, it's not trivial to find the proof. There are some false leads:

<snip>
The actual answer is in: <snip>[*]#795 thirteenth panel, Thog calling it a greatsword. This is definitive enough, because Thog is a fighter and barbarian, so he is proficient in martial weapons. [/list]

While I do think Roy's sword is a greatsword, that isn't evidence for it, that's not Roy's sword, that's a sword given to Roy as a gladiator for his arena fight with Thog.

[Aquillion]

With nothing indicating that the effect ends prematurely, there's no reason to assume the effect would end prematurely. Without outside interference, the dominate person effect would continue as normal: the last command given would be followed for 5 days (vampire spawn) or 12 days (vampire), unless the character makes the daily save (since the destroyed creature is in no position to concentrate on the effect to prevent that save).

Or until the last order would force them to take an action against their nature, which would allow a new save. (eg. if they were ordered to kill every human in the room, Haley and Elan would probably get a new save once they reached the point where one more attack would kill Roy, regardless of whether the vampire who gave the order had died or not.)

We know this works in the OOTS-verse, too, since we saw it in Azure City.

[Jasdoif]

Or until the last order would force them to take an action against their nature, which would allow a new save. (eg. if they were ordered to kill every human in the room, Haley and Elan would probably get a new save once they reached the point where one more attack would kill Roy, regardless of whether the vampire who gave the order had died or not.)

We know this works in the OOTS-verse, too, since we saw it in Azure City.

Also true.

[amanamana]

While I do think Roy's sword is a greatsword, that isn't evidence for it, that's not Roy's sword, that's a sword given to Roy as a gladiator for his arena fight with Thog.

I can't even remember the last time I posted on these forums, but I know the answer to this one. It was a loooong time ago...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html

Small text on 8th panel.

[D.One]

That area dispels were able to remove a few buffs each from affected creature hasn't really told us much, no.

That Vaarsuvius lost stoneskin, overland flight, and death ward would necessitate some possibilities....Namely that one of the greater dispel magics was targeted at Vaarsuvius specifically, and/or that at least one of the dispel magic casters is higher than the minimum caster level 5 for the spell, and/or that Hilgya's caster level is less than 15. That's too broad a set to really glean any information out of at this point, though.

I don't know if we'll get anywhere analysing the dispels, but let's try it anyway:

There were 3 Dispel Magic and 2 Greater Dispel Magic. We could from that say that the other nameless clerics are lower than Cleric 11 (which is probably the case), but, to be precise, that's not a proof, because they could just not have it prepared.

For this analysis, I'll call the other vampire clerics (aside from Greg and Ponchula) Redhair, Blackhair and Baldguy.

• Greg's Greater Dispel's dispel check was 1d20+(something beetween 15 and 20), since we know he's at least Cleric 15.
• Ponchula's Greater Dispel's dispel check was 1d20+(something beetween 11 and 20), since we know she's at least Cleric 11 (in order to cast Greater Dispel).
• Redhair, Blackhair and Baldguy's Dispels' dispel checks were 1d20+(something beetween 5 and 10), since we know they are at least Cleric 5 (in order to be full vampires and cast Dispel).

The Dispel DC is 11+caster level. That means a level 5 cleric shouln't be able to dispel anything cast by V, and even Hylgia's castings should be nearly impossible too.

• V had, that we know of, Overland Flight (caster level 17), Mind Blank (caster level 17), Stoneskin (caster level 17), Bear's Endurance (caster level 17), Death Ward (cast by Hylgia, caster level 13+).
• We know Hylgia, Haley and Elan had Protection from Law cast on them, by a wand (Caster leve 1+)

We know for sure there was at least one area Dispel, since the Energy Resistance of the spawns was dispelled.

We also know V had three effects dispelled...

Oh, shoot. There are lots of possible combinations for this situation. Guess we can't get anything from it except that there was at least one area dispel.

[unbeliever536]

I don't know if we'll get anywhere analysing the dispels, but let's try it anyway:

There were 3 Dispel Magic and 2 Greater Dispel Magic. We could from that say that the other nameless clerics are lower than Cleric 11 (which is probably the case), but, to be precise, that's not a proof, because they could just not have it prepared.

For this analysis, I'll call the other vampire clerics (aside from Greg and Ponchula) Redhair, Blackhair and Baldguy.

• Greg's Greater Dispel's dispel check was 1d20+(something beetween 15 and 20), since we know he's at least Cleric 15.
• Ponchula's Greater Dispel's dispel check was 1d20+(something beetween 11 and 20), since we know she's at least Cleric 11 (in order to cast Greater Dispel).
• Redhair, Blackhair and Baldguy's Dispels' dispel checks were 1d20+(something beetween 5 and 10), since we know they are at least Cleric 5 (in order to be full vampires and cast Dispel).

The Dispel DC is 11+caster level. That means a level 5 cleric shouln't be able to dispel anything cast by V, and even Hylgia's castings should be nearly impossible too.

• V had, that we know of, Overland Flight (caster level 17), Mind Blank (caster level 17), Stoneskin (caster level 17), Bear's Endurance (caster level 17), Death Ward (cast by Hylgia, caster level 13+).
• We know Hylgia, Haley and Elan had Protection from Law cast on them, by a wand (Caster leve 1+)

We know for sure there was at least one area Dispel, since the Energy Resistance of the spawns was dispelled.

We also know V had three effects dispelled...

Oh, shoot. There are lots of possible combinations for this situation. Guess we can't get anything from it except that there was at least one area dispel.

The Energy Resistance was caster level 14+, because Mass Resist Energy affects one target per caster level and Sandstone is able to hit 14 (by my count) on-camera targets. It might have been 15+, actually; there's one lump of dweomer poking out behind Haley and Elan that might have an associated vampire who's hidden by characters between them and the camera. Even if you consider that implausible, he's got to be CL 11+ in order to cast Flame Strike.

Are you talking about Hel's might? Couldn't it just have run out of duration? I count a good 5 standard actions taken by Durkula while it was active.

Yeah, I'm talking about Hel's Might. Righteous Might, which the comic calls [Deity's] Might, has a duration of one round per caster level. Greg's caster level is 14 or 15 at the time of that fight, so it should last about a minute and a half. For convenience, I'll assume Roy's turn starts the rounds, but it doesn't matter since it's just the two of them acting. The round Greg casts the spell, Roy stands up and takes out a potion. Then Roy moves and drinks; Greg climbs and smashes the balcony. Round 2, Roy attacks, then Greg hits him with a rock. Next round Roy withdraws; Greg taunts him into stopping before he moves all the way, then moves up and makes a slam attack. There's a missing action from Roy before he gets grabbed, but that makes four. Round five is the dominate attempt, followed by Roy breaking free and activating his Weapon of Legacy powers. That attack knocks Greg off the balcony, and either it also breaks Righteous Might or Greg spends his standard action dismissing the spell for no particular reason and is then surprised when it's gone. Given that Roy is focused on fighting undead casters, I wouldn't be surprised if his sword was capable of removing active buffs. As with the heal, though, we've not seen Roy make use of that ability or even mention it since he first triggered his Weapon of Legacy state, so it's not totally clear what's going on there or if he has at-will access to those powers.

[D.One]

The Energy Resistance was caster level 14+, because Mass Resist Energy affects one target per caster level and Bloostone is able to hit 14 (by my count) on-camera targets. It might have been 15+, actually; there's one lump of dweomer poking out behind Haley and Elan that might have an associated vampire who's hidden by characters between them and the camera. Even if you consider that implausible, he's got to be CL 11+ in order to cast Flame Strike.

Yeah, the issue about Bloodstone's level arised when that strip came out. Anyway, not all spawns were protected by Sandstone's spell (probably not all of then were in the first battle), since there were some of them who didn't have fire protection.

Edit:
We know for sure that V's spells (Caster 17) were cast on V and Blackwing, and both of then got something dispelled. From V's words (and fall), we know he got Overland Flight, Stoneskin and Death Ward (by Hylgia) dispelled. If we suppose the lower clerics were 5th level, then they might be able to dispel Death Ward with some luck, but wouldn't affect V's spells. For her to have two of her spells dispelled, either both Greg and Ponchula used area dispels and Death War got dispelled by some lucky lower priest, or one of Greg or Ponchula used a targeted dispel on V.

We don't know what Blackwing got dispelled. If it was any of V's spells, then probably either Ponchula or Greg did a Area Dispel, if only because any of then doing a targeted dispel on Blackwing seems a gigantic waste.

[Ephemera]

I’ve been assuming that they all did area dispels, either because they didn’t discuss anything, and this was apparently their generic plan for facing spellcasters (although of course it’s possible that said plan includes “vampire A does targeted dispel on highest level caster”) and because I’d assumed that their chances of dispelling so many buffs are pretty low unless they all did.

It’s obviously not at all conclusive, however. I doubt we’re getting more information on exactly what was dispelled, let alone enough of it to draw any kind of conclusion about anyone’s level, in any case.