Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[Aquillion]

Another reason for making those effects high-level (which occurred to me while reading this) is that they invalidate a lot of stories that players and DMs might want to tell. Keeping them high-level ensures that eg. "frantic dash to deliver a warning to the Duke" or whatever is still a viable story to tell at low levels.

[rferries]

Another very esoteric and minor point, but in this comic Haley Bluffs the elder silicon (earth) elemental. According to the SRD they only speak Terran, so Haley therefore speaks Terran (or perhaps got her point across just by waving the sword).

[D.One]

[...] (or perhaps got her point across just by waving the sword).

I'd go with this, given Redcloak's specific wording "...Starting with the human with the greatsword." What happens if the holder of the sword changes? Maybe it would stay with the first swordholder, or maybe it would consider the sword, and not the holder, the important detail (if the holder is human, of course).

EDIT:

I've just read in the SRD that "... A bluff requires interaction between you and the target...". It doesn't say it has to be verbal interaction. When we take intoi account that feinting is done with bluff, and feinting will be done many times by gesture and posture alone, I become more convinced that Haley didn't need to speak Terran for this scene.

[Quartz]

In #1116 V specifically casts Bear's Endurance. We've previously discussed V possibly having a Mass Spell feat given he's previously cast spells like Mass Enlarge (in Azure City) and other Mass X spells. If ever there were a case for V casting a Mass Bear's Endurance spell this would be it, so this indicates - but is not proof - that he does not have the feat. He could have had an item, for instance, which is now exhausted. Or a better use for a 6th level slot. Or... There is also a Mass Bear's Endurance version of the spell in the SRD.

We can still add Bear's Endurance to the list of V's spells.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or... There is also a Mass Bear's Endurance version of the spell in the SRD.

This. There is no Mass Spell feat. The various "mass" spells are discrete spells unto themselves.

[Quartz]

This. There is no Mass Spell feat.

Not in the SRD there isn't. But there are other sources.

And we can add Bull's Strength to Minrah's spell list.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not in the SRD there isn't. But there are other sources.

The SRD does, however, have this to say about "mass" spells. They're part of "spell chains" that develop from more basic spells, and not the product of metamagic feats of any sort.

Complete Arcane did introduce Twin Spell metamagic, but that's not the same thing. There is no first-party 3E or 3.5E feat with "Mass" in its name.

And we can add Bull's Strength to Minrah's spell list.

Bull's strength is on the standard Cleric list.

[EmperorSarda]

So what level of Summon Monster do we think Hilgya used?

We see 4 Chaotic/Anarchic Giraffes. Plus at least 3 bag of trick animals.

With the listed Summon Monster 4 monster, the hp of the listed monsters range from 19 to 45 hp.

Listed Summon Monster 5 monster range from 34 to 65 hp.

If they are on the mid HP tier range of Summon Monster 4, that might make the most sense. Because once you go above 37 hp per giraffe then there is a risk of plenty of the Symbol of Death skipping a giraffe and posing a risk for V or Elan (depending on their HP).

So if they are SM4 equivalents, then that means Hilgya cast Summon Monster 6 to have 4 of them. She could have also cast Summon Monster 5 if the Anarchic Giraffes are on the low end of the hp spectrum of the CR5 challenge rating.

If it is Summon Monster 6, it only confirms that Hilgya is at least 11th level Cleric. Which we already know. If it is Summon Monster 7, that makes her a 13th level cleric.

[Douglas]

If it is Summon Monster 6, it only confirms that Hilgya is at least 11th level Cleric. Which we already know. If it is Summon Monster 7, that makes her a 13th level cleric.

Actually, we already know she's at least level 13 because she can cast Greater Scrying. The first post just hasn't been updated since before then.

[rferries]

Symbol Count:

At least 1 on ceiling in this comic.

In current comic:
At least 1 on wall (of a different design from the ceiling one), at least 3 on floor in 2nd panel.

At least 3 on floor in 2nd-last panel. These look very different from the ones on the 2nd panel, so 1) they're distinct or 2) the art is just randomly generated and they're meant to be the same symbols, or the symbol's in-universe appearance doesn't correspond to its function.

Some overlap is possible but the rightmost symbol (in the 2nd-last panel) definitely doesn't match the one closest to the wall in the 2nd panel.

Therefore, there are at least 5 symbols (and possibly 8 or more) in the room - 1 ceiling, 1 wall, 3-6+ on floor.

This may allow us to calculate Greg's minion's levels, depending on the other spells they cast (unless he cast most of the symbols himself).

Bonus: None of the symbols perfectly resembles Xykon's symbol of pain or symbol of insanity, but the art upgrades could have made a big change.

Now watch, as the next comic reveals that half the symbols are fake traps or simple arcane marks and makes all the above deductions pointless! :D

[rferries]

So what level of Summon Monster do we think Hilgya used?

We see 4 Chaotic/Anarchic Giraffes. Plus at least 3 bag of trick animals.

With the listed Summon Monster 4 monster, the hp of the listed monsters range from 19 to 45 hp.

Listed Summon Monster 5 monster range from 34 to 65 hp.

If they are on the mid HP tier range of Summon Monster 4, that might make the most sense. Because once you go above 37 hp per giraffe then there is a risk of plenty of the Symbol of Death skipping a giraffe and posing a risk for V or Elan (depending on their HP).

So if they are SM4 equivalents, then that means Hilgya cast Summon Monster 6 to have 4 of them. She could have also cast Summon Monster 5 if the Anarchic Giraffes are on the low end of the hp spectrum of the CR5 challenge rating.

If it is Summon Monster 6, it only confirms that Hilgya is at least 11th level Cleric. Which we already know. If it is Summon Monster 7, that makes her a 13th level cleric.

Hilgya most likely summoned all the giraffes with a 5th-level spell, or a couple 3rd- or 4th-level spells, as follows:

What summon monster could get a giraffe? Looking at the SRD Animals:

The bison (Large, CR 2, 5HD, 37 hp) entry says "The bison’s statistics can be used for almost any large herd animal." Summon Monster III can summon a celestial bison.

Alternatively, the rhinoceros (Large, CR 4, 8 HD, 76 hp) entry says: "These statistics can describe any herbivore of similar size and similar natural weapons (antlers, horns, tusks, or the like)." Summon Monster VI can summon a fiendish rhinoceros.

A bison seems more like a giraffe than a rhinoceros IMHO...so she could have used Summon Monster V to get all four giraffes in one go.

If a giraffe is a IVth- or Vth-level summon (between bison and rhinoceros) she'd need Summon Monster VI or VII to get all the giraffes with one spell, or multiple Summon Monster V and/or VI spells.

If a giraffe is a VIth-level summon (as a rhinoceros), she'd need Summon Monster VIII to summon them all and would have to be at least 15th level or blow a scroll (unlikely). I also thinks its unlikely she have the alternative combination of Summon Monster VI and/or VII she'd need to summon them.

Spoiler: Pointless Math

Show

4 anarchic giraffes, so:

1) She simply used "summon monster _" multiple times to summon 1 creature each time, or to summon 1d3 creatures from the next-lowest list at least twice (for a total of 4).

2) She used "empowered summon monster _" to summon 1 to 4 creatures from the next-lowest list at least once, or 3 to 7 creatures from the list at least 2 levels lower at least once.

3) She used "summon monster _" to summon 1d4+1 creatures from the list at least 2 levels lower at least once.

[rferries]

Sorry for the triple posting, but one final calculation:

If the giraffes are indeed the equivalent of bison, then they have a total hp of 148 (37 x 4), a near-perfect amount for depleting symbols, which makes me think Rich possibly used the same math (kudos to EmperorSarda for working that out first!).

They could conceivably waste any number of symbols of fear and stunning before using up a symbol of death (all other symbols don't have hit point limits).

[Aquillion]

Hilgya most likely summoned all the giraffes with a 5th-level spell, or a couple 3rd- or 4th-level spells, as follows:

What summon monster could get a giraffe?

She specifically says they're cheap to summon, so I'd go with the lowest level they could reasonably be. She seems to be using them as a distraction, to throw off the vampire's formation and to set off any traps, rather than as a combat threat, which would also tend to suggest a low-level summon.

I definitely don't think she blew one of her highest-level spell slots on them, and probably not even her second-highest. That's not cheap.

EDIT: It also occurs to me that this is yet another example of Hilgya's magic focusing on "chaos" rather than the good / evil alignment axis. That doesn't necessarily prove anything (neutral casters also have access to this, and a chaotic evil character would have access to both chaotic and evil effects), but it does implicitly suggest that she identifies more as chaotic than she does as evil (assuming she even is evil.) This is not a huge surprise given that almost all her dialog has focused on her personal freedom, but it seems worth noting anyway.

[b_jonas]

In #1116 V specifically casts Bear's Endurance. […] If ever there were a case for V casting a Mass Bear's Endurance spell this would be it, so this indicates - but is not proof - that he does not have the feat.

I question this assumption. Vaarsuvius casts the Bear's Endurance on herself, which you can see from the magical glow in the art. She needs the protection of this spell because she is in danger of getting killed in combat by physical attacks. She has low max hit points, doesn't wear armor, and can't dodge attacks well. She also knows from #1109 that the non-spellcasting vampires will target her first. The Bear's Endurance feat helps this because it gives him like thirty extra hit points. The rest of the party aren't in such danger, they don't die so easily. Also, the vampires are more likely to attack the rest of the party with vampire abilities or magic than with ordinary physical attacks, so Bear's Endurance wouldn't help them.

[zimmerwald1915]

Once again, there is no Mass Spell feat. There are two printed core spells, bear's endurance and mass bear's endurance. Vaarsuvius has casted both of them. For other spells with mass versions she has casted only the mass version, e.g. mass enlarge person. For still others, e.g. invisibility and suggestion, she has casted only the single-target version.

Stop trying to Nale this. It's not that complicated.

[Doug Lampert]

This. There is no Mass Spell feat. The various "mass" spells are discrete spells unto themselves.

This is true.

Note that Durkon researched Mass Death Ward rather than learning a feat.

Mass spells are typically (but not always) 4 levels higher than the single target version.

Mass ability buffs (like Bull's Strength) are all level 6 rather than level 2.
Mass Charm Monster is 8 rather than 4.
Mass Cure are all 4 levels higher on the cleric list (but 5 levels higher on the druid list).
Mass Heal is 3 levels higher than heal.
Mass Hold Monster or Hold Person is 4 levels higher on the wizard/sorcerer list, but other classes don't get it at all.
Mass invisibility is 5 levels higher than invisibility, and isn't actually as good as you would expect as the targets have to stay together, but there's invisibility sphere which is sort of like mass invisibility (with even more limits) and only one level higher than invisibility.
Reduce and Enlarge Person are only 3 levels higher.
Suggestion is only 3 levels higher.

As far as I can tell, that's it in the SRD, and it's all 3-5 levels higher, but there's no obvious rule for how much higher. If it were a metamagic, it would presumably need to always add the same amount, WotC doesn't seem to believe that "mass" has a particular level increase.

[D.One]

This is true.

Note that Durkon researched Mass Death Ward rather than learning a feat.

Mass spells are typically (but not always) 4 levels higher than the single target version.

Mass ability buffs (like Bull's Strength) are all level 6 rather than level 2.
Mass Charm Monster is 8 rather than 4.
Mass Cure are all 4 levels higher on the cleric list (but 5 levels higher on the druid list).
Mass Heal is 3 levels higher than heal.
Mass Hold Monster or Hold Person is 4 levels higher on the wizard/sorcerer list, but other classes don't get it at all.
Mass invisibility is 5 levels higher than invisibility, and isn't actually as good as you would expect as the targets have to stay together, but there's invisibility sphere which is sort of like mass invisibility (with even more limits) and only one level higher than invisibility.
Reduce and Enlarge Person are only 3 levels higher.
Suggestion is only 3 levels higher.

As far as I can tell, that's it in the SRD, and it's all 3-5 levels higher, but there's no obvious rule for how much higher. If it were a metamagic, it would presumably need to always add the same amount, WotC doesn't seem to believe that "mass" has a particular level increase.

Adding to the math here, in the case of psionic powers, such as Psionic Suggestion, an augmentation of +2 power points (roughly equivalent to an increase of +1 spell level) adds another target, emulating (poorly) the Mass spells.

[Quartz]

Not in the SRD there isn't. But there are other sources.

Sorry, I forgot to add a link for the 'other sources':

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mass_Spell_(3.5e_Feat)

[zimmerwald1915]

Sorry, I forgot to add a link for the 'other sources':

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mass_Spell_(3.5e_Feat)

That thar's homebrew, son.

[Quartz]

That thar's homebrew, son.

It was just the top example. And everything's really homebrew, isn't it?

[Quartz]

Moving on to Greg, I count four Symbols in #1116, plus the Symbol of Death on the ceiling in #1109, for five in total. Absent bonus spells this puts Greg as at least a 20th level caster if he did it in one go or 16th if he did it in two goes using only 8th level spell slots. Greg could be a 17th level caster if he used his 9th level slots for the symbols. This also assumes that Symbol is a domain spell, but it isn't listed as such in the SRD.

I don't think they've been there long enough to manage three goes.

If you include stat bonuses then Greg needs a Wisdom of 34 to get two bonus 8th level spells and 26 to get one. Greg gets +2 Wis from being a vampire which puts him at a base of 24-25 so needs a magical boost. I think a +10 booster is most unlikely, but he could have seized a +4 or +6 booster from one of the priests he slew. Indeed Greg could benefit from one booster that gives an Insight bonus and one that gives an Enhancement bonus so they stack. That would allow Greg to cast all five in one go if he were a 16th level caster.

Of course, there's also the possibility that the Exarch is also a 15th+ level caster, but one needs to be 16th level or better (absent bonus spells) to do it all in one go.

Another alternative is they are not Symbols but (Greater) Glyphs of Warding, presumably loaded with nasties like Dispel Magic and Harm. Note that Harm is beneficial to vampires so does double duty.

Edit: Never mind - I'd forgotten that not all Symbols are 8th level.

[hamishspence]

What summon monster could get a giraffe? Looking at the SRD Animals:

The bison (Large, CR 2, 5HD, 37 hp) entry says "The bison’s statistics can be used for almost any large herd animal." Summon Monster III can summon a celestial bison.

Alternatively, the rhinoceros (Large, CR 4, 8 HD, 76 hp) entry says: "These statistics can describe any herbivore of similar size and similar natural weapons (antlers, horns, tusks, or the like)." Summon Monster VI can summon a fiendish rhinoceros.

A bison seems more like a giraffe than a rhinoceros IMHO...so she could have used Summon Monster V to get all four giraffes in one go.

While bison are a possibility - it should be noted that their Gore attack isn't very giraffe-ey. I'd replace it with a Slam, doing same damage, at the very least.

A case could be made that Heavy Warhorses are actually more like a giraffe - fast, hoof attacks.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A case could be made that Heavy Warhorses are actually more like a giraffe - fast, hoof attacks.

Yeah, but do they have neck attacks? They're a crucial part of a giraffe's armament



GW

[hamishspence]

Yeah, but do they have neck attacks? They're a crucial part of a giraffe's armament

They use them more for "nonlethal fighting amongst themselves" than "lethal defence against predators" though.

That said, swapping "gore" (piercing damage) for "slam" (bludgeoning damage) is a good way to fix the bison or rhino statblock to slightly better represent a giraffe.

"Warhorse/dire horse" stats, would be for a more hoof-centric than neck-centric build.

What animals get both Hoof attack and "Head" attack?

Elephant using just "slam & 2 stamps" - with the Gore option removed entirely - might fit. A fully grown bull giraffe weighs 2 tons, after all. Swapped round so the stamps/kicks are primary and the slam secondary.

[Ephemera]

FWIW, through quick google:

Mass of a white rhino: 5600 lbs
black rhino: 1800-3100 lbs

Bison: 1400 lbs

Giraffe: 2600 lbs (male) or 1800 lbs (female)

Mass isn't a perfect proxy for lethality, but might be a decent one for hp (although a rhino's hide is probably worth more, and a giraffe's skin is likely more like a bison...although I have no idea if that's really HP or purely AC). The giraffe being about mid-way between the two, though, isn't all that useful.

Elephants run to 12k lbs or so, otherwise known as much larger.

I find it vanishingly unlikely that this is going to become relevant for actually statting Hilgya, since we'd have to be sure she'd used a pretty high level spell (as opposed to several lower level ones) and also have her use enough other spells that we could pin down a minimum level higher than what we already have. That said, this thread seems to have a reasonably high tolerance for discussing comic-related geekery that doesn't actually lead to entries in the statblock, and I approve of this.

[hamishspence]

Elephants run to 12k lbs or so, otherwise known as much larger.

The Elephant statblock does include the small Indian Elephant though (with the modification - Slightly Lower Strength, suggested).

That said, it does seem likely that that the Giraffe statline, whatever it is, will skew a bit closer to Bison than Elephant.

FWIW, through quick google:

Mass of a white rhino: 5600 lbs
black rhino: 1800-3100 lbs

The MM specifically said the baseline Rhino was based on the black rhino. To represent a white rhino I'd probably advance it by a few HD.

[rferries]

FWIW, through quick google:

Mass of a white rhino: 5600 lbs
black rhino: 1800-3100 lbs

Bison: 1400 lbs

Giraffe: 2600 lbs (male) or 1800 lbs (female)

Mass isn't a perfect proxy for lethality, but might be a decent one for hp (although a rhino's hide is probably worth more, and a giraffe's skin is likely more like a bison...although I have no idea if that's really HP or purely AC). The giraffe being about mid-way between the two, though, isn't all that useful.

Elephants run to 12k lbs or so, otherwise known as much larger.

I find it vanishingly unlikely that this is going to become relevant for actually statting Hilgya, since we'd have to be sure she'd used a pretty high level spell (as opposed to several lower level ones) and also have her use enough other spells that we could pin down a minimum level higher than what we already have. That said, this thread seems to have a reasonably high tolerance for discussing comic-related geekery that doesn't actually lead to entries in the statblock, and I approve of this.

Natural weapon damage is generally based on size category (pus Str mod of course); giraffes can be 14.1 - 18.7 feet tall on average, so therefore they are Large creatures that can be advanced to Huge size.

Agreed that this all an exercise in futility though, too many vairables to track :D

[hamishspence]

Natural weapon damage is generally based on size category (pus Str mod of course); giraffes can be 14.1 - 18.7 feet tall on average, so therefore they are Large creatures that can be advanced to Huge size.

It appears to me

They are in Pathfinder. We discussed it way upthread.
Or if you want 3.5, slap a new hat on a Celestial Bison.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/h...#warhorseHeavy


that this was exactly what Pathfinder did - advance a Large creature to Huge size, (without changing its number of hit dice), and change Bite Attack to Slam Attack.

[EmperorSarda]

Hilgya has the Chaos domain.

Also... why are we assuming she has the fire domain? Because she said Loki was the god of Chaos and Flames?

[zimmerwald1915]

Hilgya has the Chaos domain.

Also... why are we assuming she has the fire domain? Because she said Loki was the god of Chaos and Flames?

Because she rebuked fire creatures, which is the domain power of the Fire domain.