Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[Chei]

So, other than outward WoG, is there any rules reason Hilgya might have for being unable to destroy the vampires when she Turned them?

Sure. If those were in fact vampires rather than just spawn (HD > 4) they'd be much harder to destroy. I'm going to say that's the most likely explanation for them surviving the turning of a more powerful cleric than originally surmised.

[knag]

Technically, using Anarchic Water as the focus for scrying is a houserule (unless there's some book outside the core that addresses it.) Scrying, by the book, always uses Holy Water as its focus. So we can't really deduce anything from it.

Can we at least deduce that it means she's Chaotic rather than "non-lawful" as shown in the OP?

[Aquillion]

I mean, it's obviously intended to signal that she's chaotic. Technically a neutral cleric could create Anarchic Water, but it's not clear why they would when there's no hint of lawful outsiders around.

[Chronos]

I think that the rulebook which introduced anarchic water (Planar Handbook?) specifically says that it can be used in the same way as holy water, aside from alignment issues (thus allowing a chaotic cleric to scry using a font of anarchic water). But that source might also have some information about who can make/use anarchic water, which might be useful for our purposes.

[Jasdoif]

I think that the rulebook which introduced anarchic water (Planar Handbook?) specifically says that it can be used in the same way as holy water, aside from alignment issues (thus allowing a chaotic cleric to scry using a font of anarchic water).

I didn't see anything of that nature....The description is a copy/paste/edit of holy water's text, rather than referencing holy water anywhere.

Then again, scrying says clerics require a "holy water font" as a focus without making an exception for evil clerics who can't produce holy water themselves; so I'd imagine the spell means "holy water" as a generic for "aligned water"....I will admit to being amused with the idea that any container with the word "holy" written on it with Aquan glyphs would work, but I don't think they meant that kind of font.

But that source might also have some information about who can make/use anarchic water, which might be useful for our purposes.

The anarchic water spell is listed as a cleric spell and has the "Chaotic" descriptor; so clerics who are Lawful (or have Lawful deities) can't cast it.

[Liquor Box]

V is confident that the Symbol of Death probably isn't a threat to Roy due to his "general heartiness", but unfortunately, there are two different interpretations of what that means: It could mean that he has over 150 HP and thus would be completely immune to the Symbol, or it could just mean that he has a very good Fort save and thus would be likely to save against it. Neither is a very remarkable statement for a high-level fighter, so I don't think we can learn anything about Roy this way, and a wizard, rogue, and bard would all be "frailer" by either standard, so we can't learn anything about the others this way, either. For whatever reason, V doesn't mention Belkar in either category (hearty or frail), so we also can't learn anything about him, either.

I tend to think we can infer that V was referring to Belkar and Hilgya as well. Again, this would be reasonable, as those three probably have the highest fort and HP in the group.

I wondered if the fact that V said "it is likely of little concern..." suggests it is Roy's fortitude save instead of his hitpoints that would keep him safe.On my read of the spell, if Roy had greater that 150hp he would certainly be safe, but if he had a very high fort save he would only probably be safe. But on reflection that it more likely just V being imprecise with his language.

[D.One]

We all assumed that the vampires we saw in the Forcecage fight were spawn, but since Hilgya has now demonstrated as being Level 13, we have to assume that our current parameters by RAW are impossible to reconcile now. Right?

So, other than outward WoG, is there any rules reason Hilgya might have for being unable to destroy the vampires when she Turned them?

By RAW, at least the ones she turned must be full Vampires, no Spawns, in order to not beeing destroyed. That means also that these ones have at least 5 HD. With turning resistance of +4, that means they have an "effective HD" for turning of at least 9.

Hilgya turned 4 of them, which means she had at least a result of 36 for turning damage.

In a roll of 2d6+level+Charisma modifier, that means she has at least +24 beetween level and Charisma modifier... that's hard.

On the other hand, she might have (I'd say probably has) Empower Turning, from Complete Divine, which increases the final result of turning damage by 50%.

With that, she needs a minimum result of only 24 to be able to turn the 4 vampires, which brings us to a minimum Level+CHarisma Modifier of +12. Since we've pinpointed her level in 13+, she could even have a -1 Charisma penalty (for a score of 8 or 9) and still be able to turn them.

If her level is greater than 13, she could even have a Charisma lower than 8.

OK, we need more intel...

[Chronos]

V not mentioning Hilgya or Belkar (or for that matter, Minrah) could mean that they're implicitly in the "hearty" category (they likely are), but it could just as well mean that they're implicitly in the "frail" category. I think the simplest explanation for V not mentioning them is that e was just giving examples, not an exhaustive list.

And e also did say "probably" not a concern, and I don't think e was speaking imprecisely (Vaarsuvius always speaks precisely). But that still doesn't necessarily mean e was referring to Roy's Fort save: It could also reflect an uncertainty on es part as to Roy's precise HP total.

On the matter of Hilgya's level, another possibility is that she's not a level 13 cleric. Her actual cleric levels might be lower, but with the remainder being in a prestige class which advances casting but not turn/destroy undead (which is how most cleric prestige classes work, after all). And there is precedent for prestige classes being for clerics.

[danielxcutter]

Also, "Greg" appears to have reached his 15th level of Cleric... Does that mean Durkon was 15th level? Hmm...

[dps]

And e also did say "probably" not a concern, and I don't think e was speaking imprecisely (Vaarsuvius always speaks precisely). But that still doesn't necessarily mean e was referring to Roy's Fort save: It could also reflect an uncertainty on es part as to Roy's precise HP total.

Agree on both parts. Unfortunately, that doesn't help us much here.

[Quartz]

Minrah identified the Symbol of Death. What does that tell us about her Spellcraft skill? Since this is a non-combat situation, can we assume she was Taking 10?

[D.One]

Minrah identified the Symbol of Death. What does that tell us about her Spellcraft skill? Since this is a non-combat situation, can we assume she was Taking 10?

Since, for skill checks, a natural 20 doesn't mean automatic success, and since the DC to "Identify a spell being cast (by seeing or hearing the spell’s verbal or somatic components)" is 15+spell level (23 for a Symbol of Death), she must have a Spellcraft modifier of at least +3, and must have at least 1 rank in the skill, since it can't be used untrained (unless she has the Jack of All Trades feat, that is).

EDIT:

Not much information beyond that, since +3 is a fairly easy minimum modifier to achieve using ranks, INT modifier and feats (Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus,...)

EDIT 2:

The possibility of Taking 10 doesn't matter much here, since we are trying to calculate her minimum modifier and ranks in the skill, and thus must assume the best roll possible.

[Reboot]

Since, for skill checks, a natural 20 doesn't mean automatic success, and since the DC to "Identify a spell being cast (by seeing or hearing the spell’s verbal or somatic components)"...

Of course, she appears to identify it via the rune itself, rather than the casting as such.

[Also, in OOTSland, since the verbal component of a spell is invariably the spell name, as long as you make the Listen check, you could probably always identify a spell being cast - even without a single Spellcraft rank - that way :p ]

[Grey_Wolf_c]

[Also, in OOTSland, since the verbal component of a spell is invariably the spell name

Not invariably. E.g. SOD's Xykon's mental domination of MitD.

GW

[b_jonas]

Since, for skill checks, a natural 20 doesn't mean automatic success, and since the DC to "Identify a spell being cast (by seeing or hearing the spell’s verbal or somatic components)" is 15+spell level (23 for a Symbol of Death), she must have a Spellcraft modifier of at least +3, and must have at least 1 rank in the skill, since it can't be used untrained (unless she has the Jack of All Trades feat, that is).

What if he silently cast a Read Magic cantrip?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, "Greg" appears to have reached his 15th level of Cleric... Does that mean Durkon was 15th level? Hmm...

Since he used an 8th at the Godsmoot, yes.

[unbeliever536]

Since he used an 8th at the Godsmoot, yes.

Spells cast by Greg at the Godsmoot:

- Silence (2nd)
- Summon Proxy (level unknown)
- Hold Person (2nd)
- Destruction (7th)
- Inflict Serious Wounds (3rd)
- Harm (6th)
- Righteous Might (5th)
- Antilife Shell (6th)

I'm not seeing an 8th level spell. Nor would such necessarily demonstrate that Durkon is also level 15, although it's quite possible.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You're right, I got Antilife Sphere and Antimagic Sphere confused.

[zimmerwald1915]

Nor would such necessarily demonstrate that Durkon is also level 15, although it's quite possible.

Yes it would. Greg is not a creature with his own hit dice or class levels. Greg uses Durkon's class levels and as his sole D&D-mechanical function, applies the vampire template on top of them. That's precisely what made Durkon so valuable to Hel.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes it would. Greg is not a creature with his own hit dice or class levels. Greg uses Durkon's class levels and as his sole D&D-mechanical function, applies the vampire template on top of them. That's precisely what made Durkon so valuable to Hel.

Err... I believe the point might have been that Durkon might have been, say, level14 but close to leveling up, and even with the severe leveling penalties of vampires, Greg may have managed to level to 15.

GW

[zimmerwald1915]

Err... I believe the point might have been that Durkon might have been, say, level14 but close to leveling up, and even with the severe leveling penalties of vampires, Greg may have managed to level to 15.

GW

It's still Durkon's hit die, though he won't be casting any 8th-level spells with it as a living man. He'd lose it and go back to level 14 (instead of level 13 if his vampire had 14 hit dice) on being resurrected.

[unbeliever536]

It's still Durkon's hit die, though he won't be casting any 8th-level spells with it as a living man. He'd lose it and go back to level 14 (instead of level 13 if his vampire had 14 hit dice) on being resurrected.

I don't think that's clear from the comic, and the opposite (Greg essentially being a "fork" of Durkon with the template applied) is not in violation of the rules. I think the most likely scenario is that Durkon leveled some time during Pyramid Day, but we can't rule out the possibility that he didn't.

[D.One]

I don't think that's clear from the comic, and the opposite (Greg essentially being a "fork" of Durkon with the template applied) is not in violation of the rules. I think the most likely scenario is that Durkon leveled some time during Pyramid Day, but we can't rule out the possibility that he didn't.

We don't have proof of either theory, and this is mostly philosophical, but I'd divide the character Durkon in two "fronts", the stats and the control.

The stats are his body, with his abilities, class, race, vampire template, level, etc... They are one single set, that is now under control of Greg/Durkon*.

The control is who controls the stats. Durkon (the PC, controled by a player) is out of control, as Greg (an NPC, controled by the DM) has taken over.

But the stats pass on from one to the other, as this is the game mechanics for templates.

[oonker]

Err... I believe the point might have been that Durkon might have been, say, level14 but close to leveling up, and even with the severe leveling penalties of vampires, Greg may have managed to level to 15.

GW

Well, he did face Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, which are all very high level, and Durkula also faced Roy and overcame his challenge rating of 14. It would give him substantial XP, even with the massive level adjustment.

[Vendanna]

Well, he did face Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, which are all very high level, and Durkula also faced Roy and overcame his challenge rating of 14. It would give him substantial XP, even with the massive level adjustment.

He also sent spiky against the "sand elemental"? dunno if that counts as participating to gain xp too.

[Reboot]

Wait, doesn't the LA mean that, for Durkula to go from L14-at-vamping to L15, he would need the same XP that would have taken an unvamped Durkon to L22?

Either I'm missing something fundamental on how LA works (possible), or that is more-or-less impossible, surely? [Especially since most of those "challenges" were also faced by the OotS, and *they're* not all Suddenly Epic! Just before the Godsmoot, Roy was even explicitly just back at the same level he was pre-443!]

[Quartz]

Either I'm missing something fundamental on how LA works (possible), or that is more-or-less impossible, surely?

Why impossible? Xykon is at least level 21 - and likely level 27 or so - and has a LA for being a lich and has been getting XP from Serini's dungeons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait, doesn't the LA mean that, for Durkula to go from L14-at-vamping to L15, he would need the same XP that would have taken an unvamped Durkon to L22?

If I am not mistaken (and I might be, this is hardly my area of expertise), he still needs to get to the same level 15 XP total. The problem is that when assigning XP from a fight, he is considered level 22 for the purposes of determining how difficult the fight was. When you fight weaker enemies than you, the amount of XP they give you is reduced (and can be reduced to 0, as when Belkar went on a mook-killing spree during the battle of Azure city).

GW

[Douglas]

I don't remember exactly where this rule is from, but as I recall the rules for acquiring a template during play would work like this:
Durkon is level 14.
Durkon acquires Vampire template, becoming Greg.
Greg is level 14 with LA +8, and is therefore ECL 22.
Greg still has merely level 14 XP.
To advance to level 15, Greg must reach ECL 23 XP total.
Therefore, for Greg to advance a single level, he must earn all the XP required to go from level 14 to level 23, enough to level up 9 times if the template were not in play. And his XP earned from combat is calculated with his ECL of 22.

This would require an absurdly huge amount of XP gain, far beyond anything possible by normal rules without Greg having an enormous sequence of off-panel adventures that he hasn't had time for.

The only explanations that seem reasonable to me are:
a) The comic isn't following the rules in this detail, or
b) Durkon leveled up with the XP from the Linear Guild fight.

[Jasdoif]

If I am not mistaken (and I might be, this is hardly my area of expertise), he still needs to get to the same level 15 XP total. The problem is that when assigning XP from a fight, he is considered level 22 for the purposes of determining how difficult the fight was. When you fight weaker enemies than you, the amount of XP they give you is reduced (and can be reduced to 0, as when Belkar went on a mook-killing spree during the battle of Azure city).

I had to look for the reference myself (it's on page 172-173 of my DMG), but the XP total includes ECL. A bugbear rogue 2 and a halfing rogue 6 are both ECL 6 and both need a minimum XP total of 15,000; even though the bugbear has three racial hit dice and a +1 level adjustment, while the halfing is all class levels.