Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[Jasdoif]

Or maybe it's cultural - cure wands are all designed to look the same way if they're made by gnomes.

I was kind of assuming OotS-world had a readily-understandable universal multiversal system for spell identification; that a spell's verbal component happening to be the spell's name in Common wasn't actually happenstance, but the natural result of some core assumption in the setting.

[Obscuraphile]

For instance, they purposely attacked after the stronger clerics were home to sleep. They most likely do not intend to risk waking up said clerics who would definitely be significant obstacles.

Well I agree they don't want to face all the senior clerics together. But if they knew the church's schedule then they might know where the staff lives. A little bat/gaseous form and bam, ambushed, dead clerics. They probably don't even have combat spells prepared, although healing spells would still be useful in this scenario.

[Resileaf]

Well I agree they don't want to face all the senior clerics together. But if they knew the church's schedule then they might know where the staff lives. A little bat/gaseous form and bam, ambushed, dead clerics. They probably don't even have combat spells prepared, although healing spells would still be useful in this scenario.

It remains a risk. You just need one of those clerics to fight back his attacker and the entire town will go down on the vampires along with whatever support they can get from outside. The vampires' greatest weapon in this situation is secrecy, because they need the dwarves to not know what's about to happen until the very last second when they can dominate the council of elders. If the alert is raised before the meeting takes place, their plan is ruined.

Also the schedule was familiar to Durkon, but he doesn't know all the priests, especially since he's been gone for a while.

[Obscuraphile]

It remains a risk. You just need one of those clerics to fight back his attacker and the entire town will go down on the vampires along with whatever support they can get from outside. The vampires' greatest weapon in this situation is secrecy, because they need the dwarves to not know what's about to happen until the very last second when they can dominate the council of elders. If the alert is raised before the meeting takes place, their plan is ruined.

Also the schedule was familiar to Durkon, but he doesn't know all the priests, especially since he's been gone for a while.

Of course it's a risk. But, send even a low level vampire, have them coup de grace the sleeping cleric, and then, even if they survive they are fighting with four negative levels. Its even more devastating if you send the vampires out in pairs. One issue though, do we know if OoTS vampires need invitations to enter a home?

Edit: Durkon knowing the location of the senior cleric's homes becomes irrelevant the moment he vamps a current temple staffer.

[Emanick]

Of course it's a risk. But, send even a low level vampire, have them coup de grace the sleeping cleric, and then, even if they survive they are fighting with four negative levels. Its even more devastating if you send the vampires out in pairs. One issue though, do we know if OoTS vampires need invitations to enter a home?

Edit: Durkon knowing the location of the senior cleric's homes becomes irrelevant the moment he vamps a current temple staffer.

It just seems like a risk the vampires wouldn't necessarily need to take. Why would they go out of their way to kill a bunch of people who weren't going to interfere in their plan anyway, and who could raise the alarm if they discovered the intrusion? If any of the senior clerics happen to be awake, for instance (and clerics have good Wisdom scores, so they're more likely to hear and/or see intruders than most characters), s/he might easily prove more than a match for the low level vampire, and once the cleric survives the attack, s/he is capable of remotely warning others about the fact that vampires may be afoot.

We also don't even know if the average temple staffer knows where his or her bosses live. I wouldn't count on it. Although I suppose Macebook might help with that.

[Obscuraphile]

Why would they go out of their way to kill a bunch of people who weren't going to interfere in their plan anyway

You mean the people who with a 1st level spell could prevent the vampires from forcing the vote? A first level spell that has a fairly high chance of being on any given cleric's prepared list for a given day. I find it pretty likely that if some sort of conclave was called then some of the senior clerics would be expected or at least allowed to attend.

[Emanick]

You mean the people who with a 1st level spell could prevent the vampires from forcing the vote? A first level spell that has a fairly high chance of being on any given cleric's prepared list for a given day. I find it pretty likely that if some sort of conclave was called then some of the senior clerics would be expected or at least allowed to attend.

Well, since they didn't kill every priest in the city, I'm pretty sure Durkon*'s plan doesn't rely on not having any priests around that can cast 1st level spells.

That said, we don't know what his plan is was yet, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Obscuraphile]

Well, since they didn't kill every priest in the city, I'm pretty sure Durkon*'s plan doesn't rely on not having any priests around that can cast 1st level spells.

That said, we don't know what his plan is was yet, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Well it doesn't make sense for every priest in the city to be invited to an important inter-clan meeting.

While I don't really see this happening in OoTS because it would interfere with the story, I have played in and run worlds where formal meetings between important nobles/officials are attended by priests who cast Magic Circle Against (Insert Appropriate Alignment Here) upon themselves, and then stand nearby, specifically to prevent either attending party or any third party from performing mind manipulating shenanigans. This seems like it would be doubly appropriate if the parties in question were casting important votes instead of just communicating.

[Emanick]

Well it doesn't make sense for every priest in the city to be invited to an important inter-clan meeting.

While I don't really see this happening in OoTS because it would interfere with the story, I have played in and run worlds where formal meetings between important nobles/officials are attended by priests who cast Magic Circle Against (Insert Appropriate Alignment Here) upon themselves, and then stand nearby, specifically to prevent either attending party or any third party from performing mind manipulating shenanigans. This seems like it would be doubly appropriate if the parties in question were casting important votes instead of just communicating.

You're right, not every priest in the city would be invited - but if the ones who were invited were found murdered, it seems likely that others would be recruited to replace them. You'd have to kill every priest in the city to stop that from happening.

It certainly seems rational for the dwarves to take steps to prevent interference with the vote. That said, we know the Ex-Exarch has a plan, and it probably involves circumventing whatever anti-interference protocols exist. Since his preparations didn't involve killing every priest in the city, or even the senior priests, presumably that was unnecessary.

[Obscuraphile]

You're right, not every priest in the city would be invited - but if the ones who were invited were found murdered, it seems likely that others would be recruited to replace them. You'd have to kill every priest in the city to stop that from happening.

You could vamp them or dominate them instead of having to kill them. And if my boss calls in sick I'm not expected to take over their job for them so I don't see why we would just keep going down the list of clerics until we found a live one, down to the very last cleric in the city.

The high priest of Thor was invited to the God's Moot not just because they happened to be the highest level cleric available but also because they had seniority in the church. If you bump off the guy in charge that doesn't mean his immediate underling gets all of his responsibilities or that people will go to him with problems that his boss would have solved. Unless of course the church in question happens to be a frontarchy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Umm, no? Part of the underling's job description is taking over when the boss goes down. Crown Prince becomes King. Vice President becomes President.

[Obscuraphile]

Umm, no? Part of the underling's job description is taking over when the boss goes down. Crown Prince becomes King. Vice President becomes President.

When there is a clear and pre-established line of succession. Pope dies the cardinals have to elect a new one. Something tells me the church of Thor doesn't have a protocol for all the senior clergy were murdered, little Susie Sandstone who took her vows last week is now Mother Superior.

[Emanick]

When there is a clear and pre-established line of succession. Pope dies the cardinals have to elect a new one. Something tells me the church of Thor doesn't have a protocol for all the senior clergy were murdered, little Susie Sandstone who took her vows last week is now Mother Superior.

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Well, we know that's exactly how the church of The Dark One works.

Moreover, I seriously doubt that the dwarven elders' response to finding that all of the senior clergy were murdered would be "oh well, better be laxer with security." No, they'll tighten security to the absolute best of their ability. That would definitely involve bringing in as many backup clerics as possible, and might also include a number of other countermeasures, such as drafting arcane spellcasters like bards for extra security (or wizards/sorcerers, if there are any around).

[danielxcutter]

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Well, we know that's exactly how the church of The Dark One works.

Moreover, I seriously doubt that the dwarven elders' response to finding that all of the senior clergy were murdered would be "oh well, better be laxer with security." No, they'll tighten security to the absolute best of their ability. That would definitely involve bringing in as many backup clerics as possible, and might also include a number of other countermeasures, such as drafting arcane spellcasters like bards for extra security (or wizards/sorcerers, if there are any around).

Dwarven arcanists tend to be rare, unless the OotSverse is significantly different in that aspect. There is Squeaky and his apprentice(Jenna, I think?), who are bards - even less likely than dwarf wizards, due to the racial -2 Charisma penalty - and there's always the possibilities of non-dwarf arcanists, either allies or mercenaries.

Just nitpicking about that part; everything else sounds solid(hurhurhur) enough to me.

[Obscuraphile]

Moreover, I seriously doubt that the dwarven elders' response to finding that all of the senior clergy were murdered would be "oh well, better be laxer with security." No, they'll tighten security to the absolute best of their ability. That would definitely involve bringing in as many backup clerics as possible, and might also include a number of other countermeasures, such as drafting arcane spellcasters like bards for extra security (or wizards/sorcerers, if there are any around).

So allowing your enemies strongest players to stay in the game is safer than forcing them to rely on their second string? And once again, they don't have to stay dead. These are vampires we're talking about. They don't even have to die in the first place, a few negative levels and the clerics have a major penalty to a save that leaves them dominated for the better part of two weeks. The idea that all of these vampires can operate completely unseen, while manipulating a council of clans, without attracting the attention of any high level clerics seems really silly, and given how we've seen Hel and Durkula planning it seems even sillier that they aren't going to do something about it.

[D.One]

I believe the Exarch's plan will rely more on rules lawering than on plain use of powers. Sure, there would probably be dominate involved, since they already stated the intention to use it, but Greg's last instructions were to study the rules of the meeting and to do some preparations on the meeting chamber.

I'd fully expect such important meeting to have protocols to avoid mind control, but maybe there are convoluted rules that end up making then accept a blatant mind control just for the sake of the rules. That said, a twist might be a dwarf going all "Sc**w this, DIE, mindcontrolling bloodsucker!", since their rules aren't god-enforced rules, but mortal made ones. Remember that, in the Godsmoot, the purpose of all the rules is to prevent disputes escalating into a Snarl. The Council of Elders probably follows rules based on tradition and such, and, while I doesn't discard the power of such rules, some dwarves with more common sense might be inclined to go against that if the cheating becomes blatant.

[Emanick]

So allowing your enemies strongest players to stay in the game is safer than forcing them to rely on their second string? And once again, they don't have to stay dead. These are vampires we're talking about. They don't even have to die in the first place, a few negative levels and the clerics have a major penalty to a save that leaves them dominated for the better part of two weeks. The idea that all of these vampires can operate completely unseen, while manipulating a council of clans, without attracting the attention of any high level clerics seems really silly, and given how we've seen Hel and Durkula planning it seems even sillier that they aren't going to do something about it.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Are you arguing that it would have been better for Durkon* to target the higher-level clerics by stealth, and that he made a mistake by not doing it? Or that the Ex-Exarch is still planning on doing that? Or something else? Because clearly, their plan did not involve taking out the senior clerics ahead of time, and yet Durkon is still concerned that it will work, even without the presence of the vampire team's deceased leader.

In any case, the greatest threat to the success of Hel's mission isn't the presence of clerics at the ceremony, it's discovery. If the dwarven elders find out that the vampires are trying to hijack the vote, it's probably Game Over. Hence the danger of launching a bunch of strikes against high-level clerics with low-level vampires. Dominating them ahead of time isn't necessarily going to help, because of the swirly-eyes - that probably has to happen at the last moment. Killing them will just lead to other clerics being brought in to replace them, and will tell the dwarves that something has gone wrong. Weakening them without killing or dominating them will be even worse, as they'll be able to report back and tell the other dwarves that they were attacked by some sort of undead monster, and the guard on the council will be strengthened.

On the other hand, the vampires probably can operate unseen. They can turn into mist, bats, etc., and they have access to lots of clerical magic. Vampires are amazingly great at stealth. It makes a lot more sense for them to operate in the shadows, and to strike with overwhelming force while their enemies' guard is still down, than it does to play their hand too soon and risk letting their enemies figure out what's going on.

[Resileaf]

I mean, attacking the Temple of Thor wasn't even necessary. Greg only did that because he wanted a climatic location to fight Roy and hurt Durkon. He also wanted thralls, yes, but he could have gotten them anywhere else in the city.

[Peelee]

I mean, attacking the Temple of Thor wasn't even necessary. Greg only did that because he wanted a climatic location to fight Roy and hurt Durkon. He also wanted thralls, yes, but he could have gotten them anywhere else in the city.

By doing it all with clerics, he did seem to be going for a holy army. Maybe he just liked being thematic.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, he specifically went after Thorian clergy. Remember, at core he was Durkon's worst day personified, and Thorian clergy are the ones responsible for that. An element of payback was in play.

[Peelee]

Well, he specifically went after Thorian clergy. Remember, at core he was Durkon's worst day personified, and Thorian clergy are the ones responsible for that. An element of payback was in play.

Conversely, Durkon would know the most about the Thorish temples and how they work, especially in his homeland, so it could easily have been simply convenient.

[Fyraltari]

By doing it all with clerics, he did seem to be going for a holy army. Maybe he just liked being thematic.

Well, he specifically went after Thorian clergy. Remember, at core he was Durkon's worst day personified, and Thorian clergy are the ones responsible for that. An element of payback was in play.

Conversely, Durkon would know the most about the Thorish temples and how they work, especially in his homeland, so it could easily have been simply convenient.

I can totally be both. It was also convienient in that vampire Clerics have a better chance to follow Hel's plan than, say, vampire Fighters.

[D.One]

Well, he specifically went after Thorian clergy. Remember, at core he was Durkon's worst day personified, and Thorian clergy are the ones responsible for that. An element of payback was in play.

To add to this, remember that Greg said that he was very much looking foward to finishing their backup plan.

[D.One]

We haven't brought this here yet, but #1152 confirms that Durkon's Ressurection happened before dawn (and it was already established that it had happened after dusk), so it's safe to assume Hylgia didn't refresh her spells to cast it.

That means she has so far cast 3 7th level spells in a row, none of which are domain spells. For that, she needs at least 14th level of Cleric and WIS 24+, or 15th level of Cleric and the use of a 8th level slot to cast one of those spells.

[CriticalFailure]

Is it possible Hilgya could have a pearl of power or a divine version of a ring of wizardry (is this a thing? It seems like it should be? What about home brew?) or something else? She is rich as.

Not that I find her being 15th level unbelievable or anything.

[Peelee]

Is it possible Hilgya could have a pearl of power or a divine version of a ring of wizardry (is this a thing? It seems like it should be? What about home brew?) or something else? She is rich as.

Not that I find her being 15th level unbelievable or anything.

Sure, it's possible. But it's useless to speculate on unless any indication is given in comic.

[D.One]

Is it possible Hilgya could have a pearl of power or a divine version of a ring of wizardry (is this a thing? It seems like it should be? What about home brew?) or something else? She is rich as.

Not that I find her being 15th level unbelievable or anything.

Her being 14th level, minimum, is almost certain. For a Cleric of that level, a WIS 24 isn't that hard to get, with a high starting value (it's her primary spellcasting stat, after all), improvements at 4th, 8th and 12th levels, and a periapt that can give up to +6 (I'm thinking non-epic here).

That said, it's also likely that she was 15th level, same as Durkon, before his two deaths.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah if I were a spellcaster of dubious morals who had just come into a lot of money very quickly a +6 headband to my primary casting stat would be my first shopping trip.

Is it only headbands? That’s the only thing I’ve seen for mental stats but I haven’t played that much and only pathfinder. Not that it matters lol

[Resileaf]

Yeah if I were a spellcaster of dubious morals who had just come into a lot of money very quickly a +6 headband to my primary casting stat would be my first shopping trip.

Is it only headbands? That’s the only thing I’ve seen for mental stats but I haven’t played that much and only pathfinder. Not that it matters lol

3.x has different slots for every stats. Belt for strength, gloves for dex, headband for int, etc.

[hamishspence]

Headbands are the usual Int booster. Cloaks are the usual Charisma booster. Periapts (a kind of amulet) are the usual Wis booster.