Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[martianmister]

I assume that everyone vampirized are full vampires unless stated otherwise.

[danielxcutter]

Speaking of Brother Sandstone, he must have had 9+ levels in Cleric to cast Flame Strike. Any info we can glean from that?

[D.One]

And as to the four that Hilgya turned (of whom three escaped), if Hilgya's (for-turning-purposes-effective) cleric level is greater than 11, they must also be full vampires in the absence of some means to raise their effective HD beyond their normal Turn Resistance.

Which brings me to a question I never thought about before:

Is there any feat that increases Turning Resistance?

[Chronos]

If there is, it wouldn't help, because these vampires couldn't ever have had a chance to take it. Such a feat would require undead type, which they didn't have before they got vamped, and they haven't leveled up or otherwise had an opportunity to gain feats after.

[zimmerwald1915]

I assume that everyone vampirized are full vampires unless stated otherwise.

That's exactly the trouble. We do have a statement otherwise: Durkon's use of "spawn."

[zimmerwald1915]

And as to the four that Hilgya turned (of whom three escaped), if Hilgya's (for-turning-purposes-effective) cleric level is greater than 11, they must also be full vampires in the absence of some means to raise their effective HD beyond their normal Turn Resistance.

I'm rapidly coming around to the idea that Hilgya has a not-yet-revealed prestige class that doesn't advance turning - or conversely, a not-yet-revealed prestige class that grants turning using her prestige class level as her level for turning purposes even if her alignment might not permit her to turn. Which is not to say such a thing should be listed now. But I won't be surprised if it is revealed in the future. Not with Elan's comment about prestige classes and Veldrina's use of an obscure [albeit base] divine class.

[Douglas]

That's exactly the trouble. We do have a statement otherwise: Durkon's use of "spawn."

Ah, but the word has a clearly applicable English meaning separate from the monster type name, and it's ambiguous which one he meant.

[unbeliever536]

Speaking of Brother Sandstone, he must have had 9+ levels in Cleric to cast Flame Strike. Any info we can glean from that?

Well, it does mean that he could have bolstered a group of vampire spawn a bit, as just occurred to me. Bolstering lasts only a minute, so this is timing dependent, but he may have just been repeatedly bolstering everybody for the last half hour or more.

A thing I'm not sure of: whether Brother Sandstone bolsters if his max HD result is at least 5, with the spawn retaining their Turn Resistance, or if he simply needs a 7 or better.

[hroþila]

Well, #1111 seems to suggest they are spawn in the strict mechanical sense. Interesting.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, #1111 seems to suggest they are spawn in the strict mechanical sense. Interesting.

I think we need to start considering prestige classes that improves her casting but not her turning. How low a cleric would she have to be to not destroy spawns?

GW

[Stabbey]

With the clear reference to spawn, I am also thinking that Hilgaya turns vampires at a lower level than her cleric level. My gut is saying that's because of the same alleged house-rule applied to Loki's priests that allows them to turn in the first place. But that's not good enough for evidence.

[Jasdoif]

How low a cleric would she have to be to not destroy spawns?

Vampire spawn have 4HD and +2 turn resistance, so they're treated as 6HD when resolving turn attempts. If a cleric has at least twice as many levels as the undead have hit dice (12), the undead would be destroyed rather than turned; so Hilgya would have to turn as an 11th-level cleric at most to turn vampire spawn rather than destroy them.

[unbeliever536]

I think we need to start considering prestige classes that improves her casting but not her turning. How low a cleric would she have to be to not destroy spawns?

GW

No. No we do not. Sandstone was perfectly capable of Bolstering the vampire spawn to an effective hit dice between 6 and 9.

[SavageWombat]

I'm thinking about how the plot is dependent on Durkula not recognizing the threat that Hilgya poses (as of this strip.) So, due to my tendency to give Rich all the credit for brilliance - I think D. has made the same calculations the thread did, and concluded the same way - implying that Hilgya's power level is deliberately deceptive. Either on her level or Rich's meta-level.

[Aquillion]

I'm thinking about how the plot is dependent on Durkula not recognizing the threat that Hilgya poses (as of this strip.) So, due to my tendency to give Rich all the credit for brilliance - I think D. has made the same calculations the thread did, and concluded the same way - implying that Hilgya's power level is deliberately deceptive. Either on her level or Rich's meta-level.

It does seem like a plot point that her turning gave the HPOH the mistaken impression that she was weaker than she really is. A PRC that advances casting but not turning seems like the most logical conclusion here.

[RickDaily12]

No. No we do not. Sandstone was perfectly capable of Bolstering the vampire spawn to an effective hit dice between 6 and 9.

Why would he have done this? Durkon* has told his underlings over and over not to expect heavy duty cleric assistance. Just look at him completely downplay how much of a threat Minrah is.

EDIT: Also, this couldn't have been possible. Just count the rounds between strips 1100 and 1105. Bolstering undead only lasts for 10 rounds, and dropping prone is a move action. So 9 rounds between here and Hilgya turning Undead? Probably no.

Now, with this being said. I wonder if we can impose some kind of baseline deduction of Minrah's level. Durkon* isn't concerned when multiple spawn warn him of a successful Turn result against them, when he assumes Minrah was the one who did this.

Three spawn are warning him of this, which gives the group 18 HD to work with. Due to racial penalty, Dwarven Clerics have a maximum CHA of 16 (+3 MOD) until level 4. For Durkon* to reasonably believe Minrah can pose no threat to his group, yet still turn 3 vampire spawns, does she not have to be a minimum level 3?

At Level 3, with a CHA Mod of +3, she needed to have rolled at least 16 on the Turning check, which is decent, but maxing out on a roll of 12 is required with the d6s for Turning Damage.

I'm not sure we can extrapolate her level further. That seems like the bare minimum to me...

I'm thinking about how the plot is dependent on Durkula not recognizing the threat that Hilgya Minrah poses (as of this strip.) So, due to my tendency to give Rich all the credit for brilliance - I think D. has made the same calculations the thread did, and concluded the same way - implying that Hilgya's power level is deliberately deceptive. Either on her level or Rich's meta-level.

EDIT: Fixed this for you. Durkon* knows that Hilgya is a cleric of Loki.

When told by his spawn that the priestess had "fair skin, yellow hair and heavy armor", his reply was "Oh, you mean one of the lesser priestesses of Thor." It's pretty obvious that he's completely unaware of Hilgya's existence, which is why they try to clarify who it was they meant- only for him to ignore and talk over them.

[unbeliever536]

Why would he have done this? Durkon* has told his underlings over and over not to expect heavy duty cleric assistance. Just look at him completely downplay how much of a threat Minrah is.

Why not? As long as he can do it without breaking the ruse, it's not like he's doing anything else with his turn attempts.

EDIT: Also, this couldn't have been possible. Just count the rounds between strips 1100 and 1105. Bolstering undead only lasts for 10 rounds, and dropping prone is a move action. So 9 rounds between here and Hilgya turning Undead? Probably no.

Round 1: #1100.
Round 2: most of #1101 (this can really be combined with the 1100 round, but I'll separate it to maximize the time).
Round 3: last panel of #1101, #1102.
Round 4: #1103.
Round 5: #1104.
Round 6: page 1 of #1105, roughly to Sandstone's death (note that bolstering would outlast Sandstone's destruction, so that's not an issue).
Round 7: Turn Undead (and V's Magic Missile).

Fits with room to spare. All Sandstone has to do is succeed on a listen check for the in-temple planning. There's no reason you can't Bolster Undead prone, and it's a standard action anyway, so he can drop in the same round if there's some weird rule that says you have to be standing to use a Turn/Rebuke Undead charge.

ed: As far as Minrah is concerned, Greg knows virtually nothing about her. Probably the only thing that registered from that encounter is "cleric was not strong enough to Destroy vampire spawn". And we already have a minimum cleric level of 5 for her based on the earlier Sunburst Searing Light.

[Quild]

Vampire spawn have 4HD and +2 turn resistance, so they're treated as 6HD when resolving turn attempts. If a cleric has at least twice as many levels as the undead have hit dice (12), the undead would be destroyed rather than turned; so Hilgya would have to turn as an 11th-level cleric at most to turn vampire spawn rather than destroy them.

She did cast Greater Scrying, though.
Maybe she's evil after all and using à Magic item to turn undeads?

[Chronos]

She did cast Greater Scrying, though.

Yes, hence the discussion of her having a prestige class, or otherwise having a turning level that's lower than her spellcasting level.

Or the undead possibly being bolstered.

Should we also consider the possibility of the area being consecrated/desecrated/hallowed/unhallowed? On the one hand, the temple itself is probably under a Hallow spell, but the tunnels leading to it might or might not be. On the other hand, assuming that the tunnels aren't Hallowed, one of the vampire clerics could very easily have cast a Desecrate spell, or a few of them, on the area where they were springing the ambush. On the gripping hand, though, those spells just give a bonus/penalty to turning checks, and don't affect the undeads' HD, so shouldn't change whether a turned undead should instead be destroyed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She did cast Greater Scrying, though.
Maybe she's evil after all and using à Magic item to turn undeads?

She definitely used "Turn Undead" as a sentence (Kudzu learnt it from her), so an item seems unlikely. I mean, maybe she calls it out unnecessarily as she uses it, but it seems more parsimonious to assume she does have the ability.

Re: bolster undead: there is only so many times the undead priests could have used bolster undead. Using one every minute "just in case" means that they'd have run out long before needed. Therefore, with a duration of one minute, it's not the kind of ability they'd be spamming.

GW

[Reboot]

Also, Sandstone could have used up his turning attempts for the day before he was killed.

[SavageWombat]

For purposes of random speculation, what PrCs can someone turn up that fit the "no turning advancement" requirement, preferably that make sense for Hilgya from a story point? Saying "Rich made one up for her" doesn't give us much to do.

[Chronos]

PrCs that advance cleric spellcasting but not turning are too numerous to be worth listing, even if we further narrow the list to those available to a chaotic nongood character. Especially since this isn't an optimization discussion, so we can't just throw away the ones with less-than-full casting progression.

[unbeliever536]

She definitely used "Turn Undead" as a sentence (Kudzu learnt it from her), so an item seems unlikely. I mean, maybe she calls it out unnecessarily as she uses it, but it seems more parsimonious to assume she does have the ability.

Re: bolster undead: there is only so many times the undead priests could have used bolster undead. Using one every minute "just in case" means that they'd have run out long before needed. Therefore, with a duration of one minute, it's not the kind of ability they'd be spamming.

GW

I'm not suggesting Sandstone was spamming it, just that he heard the OOTS coming and used the ability, essentially paralleling the Mass Resist Fire bit.

[Ephemera]

FWIW I don’t think the plot point is necessarily that Greg drew conclusions from the non-destruction of the spawn. It seems to me more likely that he has pretty solid intel on all of the outstanding clerics of Thor, given that he vamped a bunch of them, and that none of gh are high enough level to matter to him.

I don’t think it really makes sense that Hilgya turned using a magic item—it would have made a lot more sense for her to rebuke/command if she had it at a higher level (plus the whole “Loki hates undead” bit). Unless someone comes up with a non-convoluted alternate explanation, I think you can count me among the crew who are sold on the evidence for Hilgya having levels in a prestige class of some kind. I kinda doubt we find out what it is, but who knows—she’s probably around for the resolution of this arc with Durkon at least. I’m headcannoning for now that she has a home brew involving protecting her baby and receiving bonuses while she’s carrying him. :)

[dps]

I'm thinking about how the plot is dependent on Durkula not recognizing the threat that Hilgya poses (as of this strip.)

He's not even aware of her presence. Based on their description of her, he thinks that it was Minrah that turned the spawns, and cut them off and walked away when they tried to tell him that there was another cleric there.

And FWIW, I do consider all the undead created by the HPOH to be spawns unless we have a good reason to think otherwise about an individual undead. Which doesn't help explain how Hilgya turned them without destroying them, but then again, there are problems with the opposite assumption, as well.

[Ephemera]

And FWIW, I do consider all the undead created by the HPOH to be spawns unless we have a good reason to think otherwise about an individual undead. Which doesn't help explain how Hilgya turned them without destroying them, but then again, there are problems with the opposite assumption, as well.

I think that Greg’s statement about “you spawn...the rest of us” is clear enough for this thread to conclude both that tie turned vampires were spawn and also that at least some of the remaining vamps besides Greg are not. The latter isn’t news, but the former clears up the possibility that “spawn” was being being used in a way different from the D&D mechanical sense, IMO.

Which is to say that I agree, we’re now down to explaining how Hilgya turned spawn without destroying them.

[Hecuba]

Which is to say that I agree, we’re now down to explaining how Hilgya turned spawn without destroying them.

Seconded. (?Fourth-ed? Eighth-ed? Whatever).

That leaves us with a limited set of options:

1. The spawn in question are unusually hard to turn because:
   
   1. Bolstered off-screen (seems contrived - that combat did not seem heavily abstracted)
   2. They just happen to have the ITR Feat from LM (also seems contrived)
   3. The area outside of the temple of Thor happens to be an unholy site (even more contrived)
   4. Something I've missed?
2. Hilga's effective cleric level is 11 or lower because:
   
   1. She's multi-classed in a PRC that does not advance turning but does advance spell-casting, since Greater Scrying requires Cleric 13
   2. She's multi-classed in a base class or PRC with an entirely ability allocation that is giving her access to Greater Scrying independent of her cleric casting (Not quite as contrived as c above, but close)
   3. Something I've missed?

Theoretically, item (2)(a) could put her effective cleric level as low as 2 (though it would require a Charisma Modifier of +10 and a perfect roll). That's probably not worth noting though.

Unless someone does have something to slot into the "Something I've missed" slots above, the conclusion would seem to that Hilgya's level is:

Cleric of Loki ≤ 11, Unspecified PRC* 2+; total level 13+ (minimum require to cast Greater Scrying as a Cleric)
*The PRC must advance casting but not turning

[Ephemera]

Seconded. (?Fourth-ed? Eighth-ed? Whatever).

That leaves us with a limited set of options:

1. The spawn in question are unusually hard to turn because:
   
   1. Bolstered off-screen (seems contrived - that combat did not seem heavily abstracted)
   2. They just happen to have the ITR Feat from LM (also seems contrived)
   3. The area outside of the temple of Thor happens to be an unholy site (even more contrived)
   4. Something I've missed?
2. Hilga's effective cleric level is 11 or lower because:
   
   1. She's multi-classed in a PRC that does not advance turning but does advance spell-casting, since Greater Scrying requires Cleric 13
   2. She's multi-classed in a base class or PRC with an entirely ability allocation that is giving her access to Greater Scrying independent of her cleric casting (Not quite as contrived as c above, but close)
   3. Something I've missed?

Theoretically, item (2)(a) could put her effective cleric level as low as 2 (though it would require a Charisma Modifier of +10 and a perfect roll). That's probably not worth noting though.

Unless someone does have something to slot into the "Something I've missed" slots above, the conclusion would seem to that Hilgya's level is:

Cleric of Loki ≤ 11, Unspecified PRC* 2+; total level 13+ (minimum require to cast Greater Scrying as a Cleric)
*The PRC must advance casting but not turning

I'm liking this. We probably want to hold off for a few strips, since we're exceedingly likely to see Hilgya in combat soon and may find out more information.

I'd add that if 1b or 1c were in effect, Greg probably would have known and been more concerned about them having been turned. Technically, I guess, your list of possibilities might include the mechanism by which she turns and doesn't rebuke in the first place also lowering her effective turning level, but I'd class this as also needlessly complicated (I'd say it's not entirely implausible in the abstract but that for the purposes of this thread it's outside of what we should consider without some further evidence in support).

[5a Violista]

I don't think Brother Sandstone Bolstering the escapees is possible.
(1) Forcecage grants cover.
(2) Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead (etc) can't be used on those with total cover relative to you.
(3) At least one (and likely all) of the vampires who escaped are located on the direct opposite corner of the forcecage relative to Brother Sandstone, with the entire forcecage in the way.
Thus, those who escaped had "total cover" from Brother Sandstone, meaning he couldn't have used Bolster Undead on them. Several turns pass by while they're inside the forcecage, so if they had been bolstered beforehand, it would have worn off.

Possible Counterargument: On strip 1104, Brother Sandstone moves relative to the forcecage such that he has line of sight on the vampires who escaped.
Of course, during that panel, we see him casting Mass Fire Resist. The next panel, he's back up next to the forcecage, taunting Roy. And the previous time we see him is the page before, when he's using his gaze attack on Minrah (again, in the exact same position next to the forcecage, with those who escaped having "total cover" for the purposes of Rebuke Undead. In fact, every time he uses an action, the panel focuses on him and show where he is relative to everything and he telegraphs his actions). If he used Bolster Undead, it would have had to been before the forcecage. However, that would've taken about 10 rounds (if you assume that "having conversations and taunting your opponents are free actions").