Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[unbeliever536]

I agree that Sandstone did not bolster during the confrontation we saw. There is enough time for him to have done so immediately before the OotS left the tenple, though, as part of his preparations for the immenent ambush. As to why, as a vampire made from the late actual Sandstone, he likely knew that Minrah would be available to join the OotS. Bolstering the spawn would make her almost completely irrelevant to the combat. (Note that Greg believes Minrah is capable of turning a couple of unaugmented spawn).

[hroþila]

I agree that Sandstone did not bolster during the confrontation we saw. There is enough time for him to have done so immediately before the OotS left the tenple, though, as part of his preparations for the immenent ambush. As to why, as a vampire made from the late actual Sandstone, he likely knew that Minrah would be available to join the OotS. Bolstering the spawn would make her almost completely irrelevant to the combat. (Note that Greg believes Minrah is capable of turning a couple of unaugmented spawn).

Bolstering only lasts for a minute, so Sandstone couldn't really have done it before the start of the confrontation. Theoretically he could have done it off-panel, for example between #1104 and #1105, but that doesn't sound very likely, and personally I have no idea whether that would check out, mechanically, if one assumes Sandstone bolstered all of them (or at least all the spawn).

[dps]

I'm liking this. We probably want to hold off for a few strips, since we're exceedingly likely to see Hilgya in combat soon and may find out more information.

I'd add that if 1b or 1c were in effect, Greg probably would have known and been more concerned about them having been turned. Technically, I guess, your list of possibilities might include the mechanism by which she turns and doesn't rebuke in the first place also lowering her effective turning level, but I'd class this as also needlessly complicated (I'd say it's not entirely implausible in the abstract but that for the purposes of this thread it's outside of what we should consider without some further evidence in support).

I don't see how 1c being in effect makes any sense logically. I mean, I see how it could possibly explain what we've seen happen, but I don't see why the area right outside Thor's Temple would be unholy.

[Jack Frost]

About Durkon's domains, he's been seen casting "Thor's Lightning", which I assume is some sort of Lightning Bolt. There is no such spell in the cleric spell list, and it would be logical to think Thor has something like "Weather" or "Lightning" domain (the closest thing is Weather domain of Thor on Gods & Demigods, but it's not this same Thor... he's Chaotic Good in that book).

[unbeliever536]

Bolstering only lasts for a minute, so Sandstone couldn't really have done it before the start of the confrontation. Theoretically he could have done it off-panel, for example between #1104 and #1105, but that doesn't sound very likely, and personally I have no idea whether that would check out, mechanically, if one assumes Sandstone bolstered all of them (or at least all the spawn).

Round 1: #1100.
Round 2: most of #1101 (this can really be combined with the 1100 round, but I'll separate it to maximize the time).
Round 3: last panel of #1101, #1102.
Round 4: #1103.
Round 5: #1104.
Round 6: page 1 of #1105, roughly to Sandstone's death (note that bolstering would outlast Sandstone's destruction, so that's not an issue).
Round 7: Turn Undead (and V's Magic Missile).

Fits with room to spare. All Sandstone has to do is succeed on a listen check for the in-temple planning. There's no reason you can't Bolster Undead prone, and it's a standard action anyway, so he can drop in the same round if there's some weird rule that says you have to be standing to use a Turn/Rebuke Undead charge.

Sandstone totally has time to bolster as long as he hears the OotS coming within three (possibly four) rounds of V opening the door.

[hroþila]

Sandstone totally has time to bolster as long as he hears the OotS coming within three (possibly four) rounds of V opening the door.

In my opinion, it is extremely unlikely that so little time passed before they dropped the Forcecage, or in #1100-1101 for that matter, but I admit this is subjective.

[Quartz]

I wondered if Hilgya as a pure cleric got a minimum or very low result on her Turn check and the spawn simply failed a morale check. So I ran the numbers. Even if she rolled a 0 or lower for a max HD of 9 she'd still Turn the spawn and she would Turn a minimum of 11 HD at Cha 3 (Min (2d6) + 13 - 4) so she would still destroy at least two.

[Quartz]

A question: after receiving a Restoration from Hilgya, can V now re-memorise the spell slots she lost?

[zimmerwald1915]

A question: after receiving a Restoration from Hilgya, can V now re-memorise the spell slots she lost?

No. The spell slot is treated as if it had the spell cast out of it, not as though it never had a spell prepared in it. V would have to rest for 8 hours to prepare spells in it.

[Hecuba]

I wondered if Hilgya as a pure cleric got a minimum or very low result on her Turn check and the spawn simply failed a morale check. So I ran the numbers. Even if she rolled a 0 or lower for a max HD of 9 she'd still Turn the spawn and she would Turn a minimum of 11 HD at Cha 3 (Min (2d6) + 13 - 4) so she would still destroy at least two.

Vampire Spawn have an effective HD of 6 (4 HD + 2 Turn Resistance), not 9. 9 is the minimum effective HD of an actual Vampire (5 HD + 4 Turn Resistance).
Also we know she turned 4 targets (we see them fleeing from the turning attempt).

And turning vs destroying is a function of Cleric level, not the check: if your cleric level is twice the effective HD of the turned undead (or greater), they are turned rather than destroyed. That does not require a higher turning check or a higher turning damage.

If Hilgya is a pure cleric, she has to be at least level 13 to cast Greater Scrying. That would put her Cleric level as more than twice the effective HD of vampire spawn, which means she would destroy any affected spawn instead of turning them (setting aside the rather contrived options under #1 of last post).

We know that Hilgya turned at least some spawn without destroying them. Ergo, Hilgya turns as a cleric of level no greater than 11.

We can technically make some conclusions from the turning checks and turning damage, but it doesn't give anything particularly meaningful.

• If we take all 4 undead we see her turn to be spawn, then:
  
  • The turning check indicates a minimum effective cleric level (for turning) of 2 - which allows turning a Vampire Spawn on a perfect roll. This would require 14+ Cha.
  • The turning damage must be at least 24 HD, which requires (Effective cleric level + Charisma Modifier) of at least 12 - again for a perfect roll. If we assume the maximum cleric level of 11, that gives as a minimum Cha of 12.
• If we, for some reason, assume at least one of the turned undead was a vampire and the Durkula's comment about spawn applies only to the 2 in front of him
  
  • The turning check then instead indicates a minimum effective cleric level of 5.
  • The turning damage then instead indicates a minimum (Effective cleric level + Charisma Modifier) of 15. If we assume the maximum cleric level of 11, that gives us a minimum Cha of 18.

Of these, only the 18 Cha would be meaningful - and it requires to jump through hoops

[Quartz]

Vampire Spawn have an effective HD of 6 (4 HD + 2 Turn Resistance), not 9.

You've misread me. 9 HD (level -4) is the minimum result Hilga could get on the d20 roll for rolling 0 or less.

And I'll note that she casts two level 7 spells - Greater Scrying and Restoration, so do we know if either are her domain spells or does she have sufficient Wisdom to get a bonus 7th level spell?

[Hecuba]

You've misread me. 9 HD (level -4) is the minimum result Hilga could get on the d20 roll for rolling 0 or less.

Ahh, sorry. I think I follow now: a HoB morale check and none of them actually being turned is an interesting idea I had not considered. And I concur with your conclusion: even if we presume Cha of 1, the turning damage and affected HD would not match what was observed.

And I'll note that she casts two level 7 spells - Greater Scrying and Restoration, so do we know if either are her domain spells or does she have sufficient Wisdom to get a bonus 7th level spell?

One domain is Fire: the other does not appear to be attested. Also Restoration is 4 (unless I missed something indicating we're looking at Greater Restoration).

[Reboot]

And I'll note that she casts two level 7 spells - Greater Scrying and Restoration, so do we know if either are her domain spells or does she have sufficient Wisdom to get a bonus 7th level spell?

Notwithstanding the Restoration vs. Greater Restoration thing, it seems at least likely that she's L15, same as Durkon*.

One domain is Fire: the other does not appear to be attested.

Would anyone else be shocked if it's anything other than Chaos? Anarchic Water over (un)Holy Water, calling out Loki specifically as God of Flames and Chaos and general demeanour. Might not be proof for the thread, but what are the odds?

[Hecuba]

Notwithstanding the Restoration vs. Greater Restoration thing, it seems at least likely that she's L15, same as Durkon*.


Would anyone else be shocked if it's anything other than Chaos? Anarchic Water over (un)Holy Water, calling out Loki specifically as God of Flames and Chaos and general demeanour. Might not be proof for the thread, but what are the odds?

I certainly expect him to offer the domain. And I agree that her having it seems more likely that not. But shocked? Not really, as long as it's a domain like Trickery instead.

[unbeliever536]

In my opinion, it is extremely unlikely that so little time passed before they dropped the Forcecage, or in #1100-1101 for that matter, but I admit this is subjective.

For #1100-1101, just note that Sandstone's feet are still visible in panel 1 of #1101. V and Minrah essentially haven't moved from the end of Minrah's speech. In the next wide shot, Minrah's about to start walking and V took off. Then they move about the length of the party (look at the female dead dwarf who is near Belkar in the first wide shot, and by Minrah in the second), then the ambush happens.

As to the Forcecage ... why? #1102 is a single round. #1103 is either the same round continuing or one single additional round (the SRD is not clear on what sort of action, if any, the party would be taking by closing their eyes to avoid a gaze attack). #1104 shows most of another round, with V and Sandstone both casting spells. Then in #1105 the Forcecage drops. Unless you think there was a lot of offscreen time spent standing in the Forcecage between #1103 and #1104 or between #1104 and #1105, that's all the time there is while the spell is in play. And I find it pretty unlikely that the Order just stood around for a few rounds off panel, because the urgency of the situation is noted pretty much immediately in #1103.

[Quartz]

Notwithstanding the Restoration vs. Greater Restoration thing

Yes, it looks like V only requires Restoration, not Greater Restoration as the negative levels have not set.

[Sm3gl]

I wondered if Hilgya as a pure cleric got a minimum or very low result on her Turn check and the spawn simply failed a morale check. So I ran the numbers. Even if she rolled a 0 or lower for a max HD of 9 she'd still Turn the spawn and she would Turn a minimum of 11 HD at Cha 3 (Min (2d6) + 13 - 4) so she would still destroy at least two.

Given the numbers it seems likely or even provable that Hilgya must have some levels of a prestige class that grants bonus caster levels but no improvement to turn undead ability?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Given the numbers it seems likely or even provable that Hilgya must have some levels of a prestige class that grants bonus caster levels but no improvement to turn undead ability?

Almost. A bonus caster level wouldn't allow her to cast higher level spells. If she was a Cleric 11/ [PrC] 2 and the PrC only boosts Caster Level, then she'd still be restricted to 5th level and below spells. What we are really looking for is a Prestige Class that advances Divine casting while not progressing Turn Undead. Which frankly isn't much of a limiting factor. There are tons.

[Chronos]

Classes that advance caster level without advancing the rest of what you get from casting are uncommon enough that I generally take it as a given that when people say "class that advances caster level", they mean the latter.

[danielxcutter]

You know, about that "does Belkar have Two Weapon Pounce or Bounding Assult" thing... I don't suppose taking the Spirit Lion Totem ACF would be a possibility?

[Quartz]

You know, about that "does Belkar have Two Weapon Pounce or Bounding Assult" thing... I don't suppose taking the Spirit Lion Totem ACF would be a possibility?

I don't have the Complete Champion to hand so do you have the full text? A quick search indicates that that could be a good one, but I haven't found details. The SRD only lists Lion.

[Jasdoif]

I don't have the Complete Champion to hand so do you have the full text? A quick search indicates that that could be a good one, but I haven't found details. The SRD only lists Lion.

At barbarian 1, you trade away fast movement to get the pounce ability; Allowing a full attack at the end of a charge.

[Quartz]

I think you're presenting a very good option there.

[D.One]

I don't see why Improved Turn Resistance, a feat, is being considered too contrived (or at least more contrived than an unknown Prestige Class).

First, if we assume the turned vampires are Spawn, they aren't templated creatures. They are monsters following a specific set of characteristics and with two feats to choose when created, one of which could easily be ITR.

Second, such combination woud give them effective hd 10 for turning, which means she should get at least 40 of turning damage to turn all four. For Hilgya to be able to cause such turning damage, she should have Empower Turning, since without it, she should have a total of level + Charisma modifier of at least +28 (pretty high for a dwarven cleric). With ET, she would need a minimum total of level + Charisma modifier of +15; since we've established she should be at least level 13, she would need a minimun CHA modifier of +2, pretty reasonable.

As for Durkon* knowing the Spawns had ITR, we can't be sure he did know, and even if he did, he could still be dismissing Minrah as a threat, thinking her as a mid-level cleric (something beetween 6 and 9), which could, with some luck, be able to turn some improved spawns (they don't say to him any time that the she turned four of them), but that, even with luck, wouldn't affect high level full vampires.

[unbeliever536]

I'm still at a loss as to why the bolster duration is believed to be too short.

[D.One]

I'm still at a loss as to why the bolster duration is believed to be too short.

My main problem with the bolster option is that it isn't shown on panel. That means it should have been performed before lying down on the ground pretending to be dead bodies, and there's where the one minute duration becomes a great problem.

I am dismissing the idea of him bolstering off panel during the fight mainly because we never see the light/darklight that is always shown when turn/rebuke/bolster is used. There are even multiple jokes in the strips about it.

[Hecuba]

I don't see why Improved Turn Resistance, a feat, is being considered too contrived (or at least more contrived than an unknown Prestige Class).

The vampire spawn are nameless mooks.
Assuming they have ITR means assuming that:

• All 4 of the nameless mooks we see are important enough to use customized builds rather than their standard MM statblock
• All 4 of the nameless mooks are customized with the same feat

At that point, we might as well be suggesting an across the board modification to Vampire Spawn for the setting. That's just short of a house-rule, while an unknown PRC is just light on details (most relevant PRCs would qualify).

(Setting aside the procedural bounds of this thread, my actual hypothesis would be that Rich doesn't see the value of explaining the destroy cs. turn mechanism and has silently house ruled it away. But I was working on a similar hypothesis for Hilgya having TU at all, and he did actually make mention of that in comic - so I'm certainly not batting 100 on this topic.)

You know, about that "does Belkar have Two Weapon Pounce or Bounding Assult" thing... I don't suppose taking the Spirit Lion Totem ACF would be a possibility?

I think this has come up before, I'll be a spring chicken if I can remember what thread number it was.

My best recollection was that the expanding the known sources list wasn't called for when there was a way to explain it by using (multiple) feats in already demonstrated sources. But I don't know for sure if that was ultimately why it wasn't taken up, nor do I know if his feat list had more empty space at the time.

[Jasdoif]

The vampire spawn are nameless mooks.
Assuming they have ITR means assuming that:

• All 4 of the nameless mooks we see are important enough to use customized builds rather than their standard MM statblock
• All 4 of the nameless mooks are customized with the same feat

At that point, we might as well be suggesting an across the board modification to Vampire Spawn for the setting. That's just short of a house-rule, while an unknown PRC is just light on details (most relevant PRCs would qualify).

Yeah, the need to customize nameless throwaway characters makes it look questionable.

The similar Bolster Resistance feat from Libris Mortis (undead you create or raise via necromancy spells have +4 turn resistance) has its own problem: Even assuming it works with a spell that accelerates the vampire spawn process (rather than doing all the work itself), it has Corpsecrafter as a prerequisite feat. HPoH (or one of the other vampires) getting one feat from leveling while a vampire is reasonably plausible, but two feats? That'd require leveling at least four times...the timeframe certainly isn't conducive to that.

[Reboot]

The similar Bolster Resistance feat from Libris Mortis (undead you create or raise via necromancy spells have +4 turn resistance) has its own problem: Even assuming it works with a spell that accelerates the vampire spawn process (rather than doing all the work itself), it has Corpsecrafter as a prerequisite feat. HPoH (or one of the other vampires) getting one feat from leveling while a vampire is reasonably plausible, but two feats? That'd require leveling at least four times...the timeframe certainly isn't conducive to that.

It's not just the timeframe in the abstract. It's "how could they possibly have levelled (even once) from what they've been through?" That +8 level adjustment is killer. For Durkula to have levelled from 14 "at birth" to 15 now (re: Symbol of Death), he would need the XP of a no-LA level 23 character. Hence why the thread was scrambling trying to figure out how Durkon could have got to 15 after all on his last day pre-vamp a few strips back, rather than considering it might have happened with Durkula post-vamp.

[unbeliever536]

My main problem with the bolster option is that it isn't shown on panel. That means it should have been performed before lying down on the ground pretending to be dead bodies, and there's where the one minute duration becomes a great problem.

I am dismissing the idea of him bolstering off panel during the fight mainly because we never see the light/darklight that is always shown when turn/rebuke/bolster is used. There are even multiple jokes in the strips about it.

It definitely doesn't happen during the fight. He definitely has time while or before lying down, though, if he is aware of when the Order is going to exit the temple, which could be as simple as a listen check to hear their shouted-to-the-world plans.