Questions about the early strip and Sapphire Guard

[Lacuna Caster]

Yo- got me some questions. I've been toying with the theoretical notion of an AU fanfic focused on... well, guess who, but I keeping running into problems trying to sort out Miko's situation during the early strip, just prior to being sent after the Order.

Point 1: The Sapphire Guard's response to the destruction of Dorukan's Gate seems a little... tepid... when you compare it with situations both earlier and later in the plot. During O-Chul's story (if I'm getting this right) the Guard's response to just a whiff of danger from the Crimson Mantle was to dispatch a summoned Solar with a fair-sized cohort to deal with the problem, and in SoD they send a small army to wipe out RC's village. Later, Shojo loans out a Level-18+ wizard to transport the Order on a side-quest, and Lien + O-Chul are using Sending spells to stay in regular contact with superiors.

So it seems strange that when Dorukan's keep blows up, they send a single (albeit formidable) paladin with no backup and marginal tracking ability to ride over hundreds of miles to catch the perps, rather than, say, just teleporting an integrated multi-purpose strike team directly on-site. Even if Shojo wants them alive, doesn't the thought cross his mind that 6:1 odds vs. primary casters means the Order might actually beat her? Like, fatally?

Point 2: Eugene's involvement raises more questions than it answers. If Eugene actually arrived to talk with Shojo directly after Dorukan's Gate was destroyed, then they both already know that Xykon was the malefactor here, that he escaped, and that he's (presumably) vulnerable while regenerating. Why not just have the Guard go after Xykon directly, given that solves both their problems?

If the paladins need to know why, Shojo can always say "well, the celestial being we summoned had been watching over Dorukan's keep and he tells me that a mad lich sorceror was plotting something nefarious"- which is not only plausible, but actually mostly true- and the illusory BoPLAG can corroborate that story, with bonus points if he thinks to mention the Crimson Mantle. Xykon isn't at any of the Gates by then, so the paladins' oaths wouldn't mean they can't hunt for him, and if Eugene can't tell them where to look, their diviners can.


Possible counter-explanations:

Shojo's Decisions: Maybe the key here is that Shojo isn't faking senility- he's actually senile, and on his better days he thinks he's faking it. His decisions don't have to make sense because he's actually not in his right mind. (Of course, this raises the question of whether Hinjo and other senior staff wouldn't start quietly making their own calls when it came to affairs of state, but that's another discussion.)

Why Send Just Miko: The usual answer is that she (A) knows how to track, and (B) doesn't play well with others, but diviners or hound archons can track much better, and given the stakes of the mission I have to imagine fellow paladins could endure her company for the greater good. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps her mission was intended as a punishment, or trial or atonement of sorts- did she, say, piss off the local nobles during some delicate negotiations, and this is how she makes good? Would that make half-way sense to Shojo, and/or anyone likely to influence the decision?

Teleporting: Maybe the Guard don't trust anyone beside clerics/paladins on a mission related to the Gates, or they specifically don't trust the possibly-alcoholic wizard that Shojo loans to Roy & Co.? It seems like a rather large concession against efficiency, given that teleporting to the Gate would shave off weeks of travel time and make tracking the perps much easier. Miko also says out loud that the Gate is related to the fabric of reality, so was ultra-secrecy on that point paramount? Are teleport spells just rare and not widely known?


I know it's not fair to pick on the early strip for being only loosely concerned with logic or the moral justifications for X, Y and Z- these were not top priorities for the audience at the time- and that pondering these questions too deeply can lead to Tippyverse territory. So this isn't intended particularly as a dig at the author. I just want to see, for my own curiosity, if there's a way to square this circle.

[Keltest]

As far as point one goes, Shojo wants the order on his side and working for him. While Miko was perhaps not the greatest choice to send there, a strike team of paladins would rather drastically reduce the chances of the Order trusting him, while also increasing the number of paladins who know about the Order's presence and history with the gates.

For point two, what are the SG going to do? Eugene spent most of his life trying and failing to track Xykon, and that was when he was actively doing stuff. The Guard has no practical means of locating him at that juncture, to say nothing of the displeasure of the Northerners towards a team of paladins from another continent riding in and tearing up the countryside looking for this guy. And without the Order, they cant just go to the remaining gates and bolster their defenses, because of Soon's Oath. That was the plan, remember? Go to the Oracle, figure out where Xykon is going to strike next, then send the Order to bolster the defenses at that Gate, since the Guard cant do so themselves.

[Kish]

Yo- got me some questions. I've been toying with the theoretical notion of an AU fanfic focused on... well, guess who, but I keeping running into problems trying to sort out Miko's situation during the early strip, just prior to being sent after the Order.

Point 1: The Sapphire Guard's response to the destruction of Dorukan's Gate seems a little... tepid... when you compare it with situations both earlier and later in the plot. During O-Chul's story (if I'm getting this right) the Guard's response to just a whiff of danger from the Crimson Mantle was to dispatch a summoned Solar with a fair-sized cohort to deal with the problem, and in SoD they send a small army to wipe out RC's village. Later, Shojo loans out a Level-18+ wizard to transport the Order on a side-quest, and Lien + O-Chul are using Sending spells to stay in regular contact with superiors.

They are?

(Lien said "I need to scroll-call Haley" when they arrived at the location of both Xykon and the Gate; that's pretty different from "using Sending spells to stay in regular contact with superiors," and itself suggests that Lien has a bunch of cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device. And while I know why you're calling the teleporting wizard level 18+, I think more likely Rich handwaves the rules on teleporting multiple people.)

So I think the answer is that you're comparing the pre-"How the Paladin Got His Scar" Sapphire Guard, which believed in extreme overkill, to the Sapphire Guard after Shojo's decided to rein them in and the leaders who ordered the previous actions are gone (in one case,

Spoiler

Show

Fallen on-page and then killed by Miko

).

As for why Shojo came up with an excuse to have the Order brought to him to investigate the Gates instead of simply sending the entire Sapphire Guard against Xykon, that doesn't really strike me as a very logical question. Xykon was out for a matter of days and was traveling during that time, still Cloistered; Eugene could tell them only what he'd seen when he was last on the cloud, and knew he wouldn't be allowed to return if he went back up there to look again. And even if the paladins had somehow located Xykon and traveled as fast as they could to his tower while he was there, it would just have moved the "Xykon effortlessly slaughters the Sapphire Guard" scene to somewhere where they wouldn't come back as ghost-martyrs. You're objecting to Shojo not acting far less intelligently than he actually did (and I say that as someone with a very low opinion of his actions in general).

[RatElemental]

As far as Shojo's diviners being able to find Xykon, he had been casting cloister on the place. So any attempts at scrying on him would be a no go unless he let the effect lapse for some reason.

Or the SG had some epic level casters sitting around.

[Lacuna Caster]

As for why Shojo came up with an excuse to have the Order brought to him to investigate the Gates instead of simply sending the entire Sapphire Guard against Xykon, that doesn't really strike me as a very logical question. Xykon was out for a matter of days and was traveling during that time, still Cloistered...

As far as Shojo's diviners being able to find Xykon, he had been casting cloister on the place. So any attempts at scrying on him would be a no go unless he let the effect lapse for some reason.

I'll try to come back to some of the other points later, but it's not obvious to me that Xykon had been using cloister while he was in the dungeon- if he had, wouldn't that have blocked the same divinations that allowed the Guard to identify the OOTS were at the scene? And would he have been able to cast anything later on, when he was waiting a couple of days for his body to regenerate?

Even if they can't actually land directly on top of Xykon, they could teleport close enough to the gate that conventional tracking skills- like, say, from a summoned Inevitable or Hound Archon- could probably close the gap. (Given that Miko somehow picked up the Order's trail weeks after they'd already left the scene, I don't see that being a problem.) If they do it fast enough, they don't actually need to deal with Xykon at full strength, just with Redcloak.

[RatElemental]

I'll try to come back to some of the other points later, but it's not obvious to me that Xykon had been using cloister while he was in the dungeon- if he had, wouldn't that have blocked the same divinations that allowed the Guard to identify the OOTS were at the scene? And would he have been able to cast anything later on, when he was waiting a couple of days for his body to regenerate?

Even if they can't actually land directly on top of Xykon, they could teleport close enough to the gate that conventional tracking skills- like, say, from a summoned Inevitable or Hound Archon- could probably close the gap. (Given that Miko somehow picked up the Order's trail weeks after they'd already left the scene, I don't see that being a problem.) If they do it fast enough, they don't actually need to deal with Xykon at full strength, just with Redcloak.

This comic is relevant. It shows that Xykon was casting cloister on the dungeon, and I'm presuming the OotS weren't inside the dungeon when it was cast, so they weren't personally cloistered. As soon as they left the area of effect they were fair game for scrying.

[goodpeople25]

The dungeon and most likely team evil was cloistered but would (any of) the effects end when Xykon "died"? If that's the case I don't think cloister would be that big a factor in scrying him, though I have no idea about other scrying protections (how effective they are, if Redcloak can cast them, magic items,ect) but I don't think that possibility should be discounted offhand.

As for tracking, the order left the dungeon above ground and interacted with the (presumably) nearby town and the like (And Miko was shown gathering information, though not necessarily "gathering information") if "tracking" didn't suffice. Xykon left though a tunnel whose entrance could have easily been destroyed/obsucred by the castle explosion and still was a secret escape tunnel. Not insurmountable but I think finding the tunnel is the real question, tracking would be secondary. (And probably quite simple, with the hobgoblins involved.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Plus, they didn't know a thing about the Order until Eugene started flapping his spectral gums.

Oh, and Eugene couldn't tell the Guard a thing about the Crimson Mantle, because he didn't know what it was. In fact, he still didn't mention it even after hearing Shojo's exposition dump during the trial, so it's doubtful he even noticed Redcloak beyond Random Goblin Lackey.

[Lacuna Caster]

Plus, they didn't know a thing about the Order until Eugene started flapping his spectral gums.

Oh, and Eugene couldn't tell the Guard a thing about the Crimson Mantle, because he didn't know what it was. In fact, he still didn't mention it even after hearing Shojo's exposition dump during the trial, so it's doubtful he even noticed Redcloak beyond Random Goblin Lackey.

Eugene doesn't know his importance, but unless earlier events had them completely convinced that RC was already dead(?), then he's been the paladins' primary boogeyman for perhaps half a century. The very first thing anyone senior in the guard would ask is, "was a goblin with a red cloak involved?"

Sangwaan states that their divinations clearly identified the Order, and this strip shows their scrying sensors looking directly at the wreckage of the keep, which couldn't happen if the cloister spell were in effect. (I mean, technically it targets an area 'up to' several miles wide, so maybe it was restricted to the keep and blowing that up means the 'area' it affected is gone, but that's splitting some fine hairs.)

The dungeon and most likely team evil was cloistered but would (any of) the effects end when Xykon "died"? If that's the case I don't think cloister would be that big a factor in scrying him, though I have no idea about other scrying protections (how effective they are, if Redcloak can cast them, magic items,ect) but I don't think that possibility should be discounted offhand.

As for tracking, the order left the dungeon above ground and interacted with the (presumably) nearby town and the like (And Miko was shown gathering information, though not necessarily "gathering information") if "tracking" didn't suffice. Xykon left though a tunnel whose entrance could have easily been destroyed/obsucred by the castle explosion and still was a secret escape tunnel. Not insurmountable but I think finding the tunnel is the real question, tracking would be secondary. (And probably quite simple, with the hobgoblins involved.)

Oh, I'm sure there'd be challenges involved. But as you say, probably not insurmountable given the resources that the Guard in general and Shojo in particular had at their disposal. Shojo also doesn't really have a compelling reason to conceal Xykon's survival from the paladins, and they might have a rare window of opportunity to put him down. Unless it was genuinely impossible to find teleport services, I don't think it would have been overkill to throw some more bodies at the problem.

.

[Lacuna Caster]

Harking back a little- it's fine to say that Shojo might have been trying to earn the Order's trust, but in that case the person you want to send would be someone with ranks in diplomacy like Hinjo or O-Chul, or to maybe just use a Sending spell to explain things to Roy. (Also, there's no clear reason why Eugene/the BoPLAG couldn't explain the Order's role directly to the paladins, which would probably be much clearer than saying something about your cat wanting them alive.)

I don't think that Shojo really had a choice about ordering the OOTS' arrest, per se. The guard and their diviners would have noticed the gate-indicator blinking regardless, and given Lirian's Gate was already destroyed, it'd be time to hit the panic button and bring in anyone involved for questioning. But sending just Miko seems like a poor strategy if he's either trying to persuade them to come quietly or guarantee their capture. Moreover, once the trial/interrogation starts, none of the paladins, or Shojo himself, seem to inquire that deeply into what Xykon & Co. themselves were up to- in particular, the Crimson Mantle never comes up. The only explanation I can think of there is that their diviners already probed for RC's involvement and came back with persistent negatives.

I don't think the point about jurisdiction is particularly relevant- a lot of the locations involved in the plot are outside of any particular nation-state, and sending five-to-seven agents will violate that as much as sending one.

That actually reminds me of something- given that Lirian's forest was in the elven lands, and Azure City is friendly with the elves, wouldn't they have some mutual interest in researching a method of repairing the rift after the gate's destruction? Hum.

[Keltest]

That actually reminds me of something- given that Lirian's forest was in the elven lands, and Azure City is friendly with the elves, wouldn't they have some mutual interest in researching a method of repairing the rift after the gate's destruction? Hum.

The elves in general don't even know about the Rifts. The Guard is unlikely to let them in on the secret if they can avoid it, although who knows what the rift looks like after everything that has happened.

[factotum]

This comic is relevant. It shows that Xykon was casting cloister on the dungeon, and I'm presuming the OotS weren't inside the dungeon when it was cast, so they weren't personally cloistered. As soon as they left the area of effect they were fair game for scrying.

But the area of effect of Cloister is a zone several miles across. (Evidence: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). Since Shojo had no way of knowing who was responsible for the destruction of Dorukan's Gate, and he can hardly keep scrying every inch of a border many miles long, it would not be practical for him to zero in on the Order's location using scrying. Hence, why he has to send a physical person to investigate to try and find what happened.

That's also pretty much what happened when Lirian's Gate was destroyed, incidentally--we see one panel of two Paladins discussing if they have Spot or Track as class skills, thus missing a scrap of a red cloak and goblin footprints; I forget which strip that's in, though, and I'm not going to go through all 1000+ of them to find it!

[hamishspence]

That's also pretty much what happened when Lirian's Gate was destroyed, incidentally--we see one panel of two Paladins discussing if they have Spot or Track as class skills, thus missing a scrap of a red cloak and goblin footprints; I forget which strip that's in, though, and I'm not going to go through all 1000+ of them to find it!

This one - same period as Shojo explained why he needed to recruit the Order in the first place:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

[Lacuna Caster]

But the area of effect of Cloister is a zone several miles across. (Evidence: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). Since Shojo had no way of knowing who was responsible for the destruction of Dorukan's Gate, and he can hardly keep scrying every inch of a border many miles long, it would not be practical for him to zero in on the Order's location using scrying. Hence, why he has to send a physical person to investigate to try and find what happened.

Again, Sangwaan apparently managed to identify the Order remotely as responsible for the Gate's destruction, so I don't see pinpointing their location as being a problem. But even without exact info, there's no disadvantage to using Teleport to get to the ruined keep. A fresher trail would be much easier to track, and the perps can't get very far if you arrive on-scene within a few hours.

Secondly, Shojo ostensibly did have a way of knowing who was responsible- Eugene straight-up told him, and he has no obvious reason to hide this information from the paladins. (Or at least, having the BoPLAG corroborate the story is a lot less error-prone than using the BoPLAG to stage a rigged trial to gain leverage over some kidnapped adventurers whose job is to... corroborate the story.)

I mean, how, exactly, was Shojo planning to present any evidence that the Order gathered in the first place, without revealing that he'd broken his oath not to meddle with the other Gates by telling the Order to fetch it? Were the Order going to say they were just ambling at random through the desert and they happened to bump into Xykon next to this nifty-looking pyramid? These paladins must be very trusting souls.

The elves in general don't even know about the Rifts. The Guard is unlikely to let them in on the secret if they can avoid it, although who knows what the rift looks like after everything that has happened.

That's true, but if Miko can say that Dorukan's Gate was connected to the fabric of reality- which seems like sensitive information for people you just met- it's possible a few elven archmages could be told enough to look the other way, at least. If the SG wanted to build a military base in the backwoods, for example.

[Fyraltari]

As for a reason not to use teleportation, the Sapphire Guard is a secret organisation so it makes sense they prefer not to rely on outsiders even if they work for the same lord.

And as of the trial the Guard defenitely knew the Crimson Mantle was loose, the Order's entire defense was "Elan was right to destroy the gate because if he hadn't that goblin with a red cloak that worked with Xykon would have used it."

Also just a thought but it is entirely likely that Eugene refused to say all he knew about Xykon if Shojo did not asure that the Order would be involved. After all : "Sapphire Guard destroys Xykon" is the worst case scenario as far as he is concerned.

[factotum]

As for a reason not to use teleportation, the Sapphire Guard is a secret organisation so it makes sense they prefer not to rely on outsiders even if they work for the same lord.

That's a good point--didn't Roy ask where the teleport wizard was during the Battle of Azure City, and no-one knew who he was talking about? The best they could tell him was that the wizard must have worked for some noble or other, rather than being a member of the Sapphire Guard.

[Keltest]

As for a reason not to use teleportation, the Sapphire Guard is a secret organisation so it makes sense they prefer not to rely on outsiders even if they work for the same lord.

And as of the trial the Guard defenitely knew the Crimson Mantle was loose, the Order's entire defense was "Elan was right to destroy the gate because if he hadn't that goblin with a red cloak that worked with Xykon would have used it."

Also just a thought but it is entirely likely that Eugene refused to say all he knew about Xykon if Shojo did not asure that the Order would be involved. After all : "Sapphire Guard destroys Xykon" is the worst case scenario as far as he is concerned.

To my knowledge, the Order didn't actually bring up Redcloak to the SG other than in extremely broad terms as Xykon's lackey.

[Lacuna Caster]

I thought the teleporting wizard got eaten by a Roc, and they couldn't arrange to get him raised before Xykon arrived?

Do we know for certain that Roy/Elan actually mentioned Redcloak during the trial? Roy only describes him to Celia as such.

I also don't think the terms of the blood oath strictly require that Roy has to be the one to kill Xykon (Eugene's been very bullish about just letting the world end lately, which wouldn't be down to Roy either.) I think Xykon just needs to be dead.

[Fyraltari]

They did bring up goblins several times and Roy said he was confident they could do with the gate anything Xykon could, so if that did not make them ask about crimson mantles the Paladisn really suck at their jobs. I mean : more than they already do.

I guess the fact that Roy escorted Jerkon to the moot and provided him with a teleport orb could be constructed as him being a part od the destruction off the world and thus fulfilling his father's oath. Mayyyyyyyyybe ? How good is Eugene's Bluff, I wonder.

[Lacuna Caster]

'The SG suck at gathering intel' has been a sort of recurring black joke in the series, but pretty much every higher authority in the strip has to be dragged down to the Order's level in order for the plot to function. They might or might not be especially inept in that regard.


Anyway, assuming Shojo isn't senile, here's the most plausible scenario I can work out.

(1) Dorukan's Gate is destroyed. Once the alarm sounds at SG HQ, the diviners scramble, immediately asking 'who was responsible?', and get back 'the Order of the Stick' as an answer. 'Did the crimson mantle conspire with them?' or something similarly-worded gets a 'No'. Direct scrying of the ruins gives a visual read on the OOTS but doesn't show any other survivors, so the guard are convinced that RC wasn't involved. Shojo is consulted and convenes his paladins.

(2) Eugene does not appear and does not consult with Shojo until at least a few days later, and probably not until after Miko has already captured the Order and is heading back for Azure City. This is a story Shojo and Eugene concoct much later to smooth relations with Roy & Co., after the BoPLAG is summoned for the trial. Being able to explain the real situation with Xykon and the OOTS (either directly or by Sending) is too much good intel to pass up, so the only reasonable excuse I can see is that Shojo genuinely did not have it in time.

(3) Skipping back, we'll say that Miko's orders setting out were to find the culprits, execute them if they are evil, and bring them in for trial if they are not. Since Shojo does not know much about the Order's fighting strength, it's assumed that six stragglers from whatever evil army managed to penetrate Dorukan's Keep can't pose much of a threat to her, and he would rather not bring in outside agents to handle TP. There might be some murmurs about sending one paladin to deal with this kind of problem, but he says he has every confidence in her abilities.


If Shojo is senile, or at least senile part of the time, then (3) is easier to justify, but (2) is a little harder (Shojo doesn't need a reasonable excuse for doing things if he's demented.) It's probably fudge-able either way. I do like the idea of Miko being semi-exiled for something a little less trivial than bad manners, though, so maybe that could be worked in.

As long as the SG's diviners don't immediately know to look for Xykon/RC, it's conceivable that natural will saves and dumb luck would screen them from an initial sensor sweep, so Cloister being active or not doesn't matter all that much. However, there's an implicit requirement here: High-level adventurers, in particular wizards/clerics, have to be very rare. If they're common, then teleport services and other tippyverse devices become cheap and ubiquitous, and it's essentially implausible that Miko would be walking or riding anywhere (or that anything else in the world would be how it is.) This also means that Roy was actually super-lucky (or deeeestined!) to recruit five other team-mates in a tavern at around level 10.

So... in theory that more-or-less shores up the canon narrative, if you're into that sort of thing. I do have some ideas about alternate-universe points of departure, but we can always leave if there for now.

[hamishspence]

assuming Shojo isn't senile, here's the most plausible scenario I can work out.

(1) Dorukan's Gate is destroyed. Once the alarm sounds at SG HQ, the diviners scramble, immediately asking 'who was responsible?', and get back 'the Order of the Stick' as an answer. 'Did the crimson mantle conspire with them?' or something similarly-worded gets a 'No'. Direct scrying of the ruins gives a visual read on the OOTS but doesn't show any other survivors, so the guard are convinced that RC wasn't involved. Shojo is consulted and convenes his paladins.

(2) Eugene does not appear and does not consult with Shojo until at least a few days later, and probably not until after Miko has already captured the Order and is heading back for Azure City. This is a story Shojo and Eugene concoct much later to smooth relations with Roy & Co., after the BoPLAG is summoned for the trial. Being able to explain the real situation with Xykon and the OOTS (either directly or by Sending) is too much good intel to pass up, so the only reasonable excuse I can see is that Shojo genuinely did not have it in time.

From the way Eugene acted, and in the bonus strips with him and Shojo in War & XPs:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

I think there's reason to believe what Eugene did, is exactly what he said he did.

The whole point of Roy's rage at Eugene, is that Eugene & Shojo's stunt hurt him a lot (those fights, the stress of being on trial for his life, etc). It doesn't "smooth relations" - it downright enrages him. If Miko had been sent before Eugene contacted Shojo, Roy would have much less reason to be angry.


Therefore, I think his story can be taken at face value at least in this case.

[Lacuna Caster]

The whole point of Roy's rage at Eugene, is that Eugene & Shojo's stunt hurt him a lot (those fights, the stress of being on trial for his life, etc). It doesn't "smooth relations" - it downright enrages him. If Miko had been sent before Eugene contacted Shojo, Roy would have much less reason to be angry.

I hadn't thought of that. You're right- if Shojo had simply said he couldn't avoid sending someone to arrest the Order- which I reckon was actually true regardless of timing- and then introduced Eugene, it would probably deflect a lot of the blame. (I would mention Roy is actually pleased until he realises he's not being congratulated, even though informing him of Xykon's escape is a much less trivial reason to fetch him. Shojo's pretext might not have registered through the haze of daddy issues.)

But yeah, it's a stretch. Unfortunately, to my mind the alternative- where Shojo knows most of the particulars of the Order and Xykon's activities, and fails to usefully share or act on that information- imputes an obtuseness that borders on malevolence. That Eugene would miscalculate Roy's reaction seems more plausible than miscalculating everything else they could do with that intel.

Heck, even after the trial, when the ship was sailed as far as pwning Xykon or coaxing the Order was concerned, it's hard to think of good reasons why Eugene couldn't share. There might not be much benefit by then, but the only risk is that the delayed revelation might piss off the paladins- and even then they'd be pissed at the illusory BoPLAG, not Shojo.

[factotum]

But yeah, it's a stretch. Unfortunately, to my mind the alternative- where Shojo knows most of the particulars of the Order and Xykon's activities, and fails to usefully share or act on that information- imputes an obtuseness that borders on malevolence.

Why does it have to be either/or those two positions? For a start, I don't see why Shojo should necessarily be aware of Xykon's activities. The Order of the Scribble set up rules whereby they wouldn't interfere in each other's gates unless the monitoring magic showed they'd been destroyed, and while I suppose it's possible Shojo (being Chaotic) would have ignored that and scryed on Dorukan anyway, there's no evidence that he did so. Plus, of course, Cloister was in effect and preventing scrying. (Which brings up a question: how did Shojo scry on the wreckage anyway? It would surely still be under the effects of the last Cloister spell Xykon cast on it).

So, we have zero evidence that Shojo knew anything about Xykon's activities, or even that Dorukan had died, so assuming he didn't mention any of that stuff due to malevolence is a real leap in logic. Eugene no doubt informed him of all that stuff when he got summoned, but Eugene himself didn't know where Xykon was or what he was up to--if he had, he would have informed Roy, because it was in his selfish self-interest to do so.

[RatElemental]

If cloister was still in effect on the land near the dungeon, that would also explain why the guard didn't teleport in: they couldn't. It takes even stronger epic magic to overcome epic magic.

Of course, the real reason was likely entirely to introduce Miko as a character, even though iirc her character shifted some time between when she was sent to find the order and when she actually did.

[Lacuna Caster]

The area-of-effect for cloister is only a few miles across. During Operation Peregrine, IIRC, the elves had no problem teleporting just outside that range and marching into the city. The Guard could do the same.

As factotum points out, however, if Cloister was in effect then the Guard shouldn't have been able to scry on the wreckage of the keep, which implies that either Cloister wasn't in effect, or Eugene's story is bogus.

I know that the real reason why Miko was introduced like this was because... it's a stick-figure comedy webcomic, and it's intended to be funny that Miko would stumble on the Order thanks to a montage sequence of wacky misunderstandings. I'm just trying to work out if you can retrofit that with what we know about the Guard and their abilities from later sources.

So, we have zero evidence that Shojo knew anything about Xykon's activities, or even that Dorukan had died, so assuming he didn't mention any of that stuff due to malevolence is a real leap in logic. Eugene no doubt informed him of all that stuff when he got summoned, but Eugene himself didn't know where Xykon was or what he was up to--if he had, he would have informed Roy, because it was in his selfish self-interest to do so.

I'm not saying that Shojo knew anything about Xykon prior to the keep's destruction. My point is that, after Eugene's visit, given Shojo is already worried that the Gates might be used to control the Snarl, and there's a goblin with a red cloak involved, that's more than enough reason to send a team with Xykon/RC, not Roy & Co., as the primary target for investigation.

You do raise a good point, though- if Eugene didn't visit Shojo immediately, he'd presumably have had longer to observe Team Evil and give precise intel on their location and dealings with the Hobgoblins. Of course, he couldn't control when the Guard would try to summon an advisor, but he'd be glued to the screen in the meantime.

One could imagine a scenario where they temporarily allow him past the pearly gates, only to be booted out 1d10 days later once Xykon's body is back in action... but would that be reaching too far? Hmm.

[Keltest]

The area-of-effect for cloister is only a few miles across. During Operation Peregrine, IIRC, the elves had no problem teleporting just outside that range and marching into the city. The Guard could do the same.

As factotum points out, however, if Cloister was in effect then the Guard shouldn't have been able to scry on the wreckage of the keep, which implies that either Cloister wasn't in effect, or Eugene's story is bogus.

I know that the real reason why Miko was introduced like this was because... it's a stick-figure comedy webcomic, and it's intended to be funny that Miko would stumble on the Order thanks to a montage sequence of wacky misunderstandings. I'm just trying to work out if you can retrofit that with what we know about the Guard and their abilities from later sources.


I'm not saying that Shojo knew anything about Xykon prior to the keep's destruction. My point is that, after Eugene's visit, given Shojo is already worried that the Gates might be used to control the Snarl, and there's a goblin with a red cloak involved, that's more than enough reason to send a team with Xykon/RC, not Roy & Co., as the primary target for investigation.

You do raise a good point, though- if Eugene didn't visit Shojo immediately, he'd presumably have had longer to observe Team Evil and give precise intel on their location and dealings with the Hobgoblins. Of course, he couldn't control when the Guard would try to summon an advisor, but he'd be glued to the screen in the meantime.

One could imagine a scenario where they temporarily allow him past the pearly gates, only to be booted out 1d10 days later once Xykon's body is back in action... but would that be reaching too far? Hmm.

Why would Eugene place any significance on Redcloak? He's just a minion as far as Eugene knows, and Eugene is the only source of information they have.

[Lacuna Caster]

Eugene wouldn't. Shojo and anyone else senior in the Guard would (I hope) ask about it first thing.


Also: The Oracle. Even if Cloister were in effect, once they know who to look for there's nothing to stop Shojo & Co. from consulting like any other paying customer. Teleport a half-dozen proxies in, ask the questions, teleport back or send your report. If Tiamat has a problem with the paladins, send... whatever stooge Shojo used to create an illusory Belkar to do jail time and stay quiet about it. Now you know where Xykon is.

[brian 333]

One question: When Xykon lost his phylactery, why couldn't he or Redcloak simply scry for it? I think much of the answers the OP seeks flows from there.

[DataNinja]

If Tiamat has a problem with the paladins, send... whatever stooge Shojo used to create an illusory Belkar to do jail time and stay quiet about it. Now you know where Xykon is.

Slight problem. (Second-to-last panel.) Said stooge is dead.

[Kish]

There's also no indication that the Sapphire Guard knew about the Oracle.