Questions about the early strip and Sapphire Guard

[Grytorm]

One thought I had about the whole evil alignments amd afterlives is maybe the evil gods have lobbyists and try to claim worshippers souls.

[brian 333]

One thought I had about the whole evil alignments amd afterlives is maybe the evil gods have lobbyists and try to claim worshippers souls.

An old joke involves a politician dying. He winds up at the Pearly Gates, and the angel says, "Most politicians go straight to the other place, but you've tried to do good. So The Big Guy is going to let you vote on which afterlife you prefer. Today you get into Heaven, tomorrow you see what it's like down there, and then you get to choose."

The first day he got to hang out with boring people who sang hymns and went bowling.

The second day he went to a party with all his friends from politics. They all wore the best suits and had gorgeous dates and they all swore they'd have to do it again soon.

So on the third day he voted for Hell because it was more fun and he knew everyone. But when he got there it was all fire and brimstone with devils tormenting his friends.

"What happened?" he asked his tormentor. "Yesterday everyone was happy, but today everyone is miserable!"

"You know how it is," the devil said. "Yesterday we were campaigning, but the election is over now."

[Lacuna Caster]

As our anti-hero Winston said at the end of 1984, (re-written for Picard in TNG,) if everyone says that two and two is five, then only the insane insist it equals four. Shojo's insanity, from the PoV of the grasping nobility, was evident when he failed to be a power-grabber who used the Sapphire Guard to further his personal ambition. Because that's exactly what every sane noble in Azure City would have done.

As far as personal ambition concerned, Shojo kind of has nowhere to go but down, and I recall the author saying his career did consist of kneecapping the various branches of government so that it all depended on him, personally, to function. Fryaltari made a reasonable argument that purging the other nobles might actually have served the city better in the long run.

The way I personally imagined things is that Shojo doesn't eliminate all the nobles for the same reason that Mad King Aerys didn't eliminate all the great houses in Westeros- trying to is likely to start a civil war, and you'll need somebody to fill those admin positions anyway. He might, however, try replacing some of them with candidates promoted by a more meritocratic system. But that's purely my own headcanon.

I don't think that feigning insanity would actually work for any discernible length of time when the various branches of government depend directly on you to function- if your policies are rational, you're not gonna fool anyone into thinking you're crazy. But I don't think Shojo-fakes-senility is really particularly vital to the plot, although being actually senile might explain a few things.

[georgie_leech]

The way I personally imagined things is that Shojo doesn't eliminate all the nobles for the same reason that Mad King Aerys didn't eliminate all the great houses in Westeros- trying to is likely to start a civil war, and you'll need somebody to fill those admin positions anyway. He might, however, try replacing some of them with candidates promoted by a more meritocratic system. But that's purely my own headcanon.

Because nobles have traditionally responded so well to the loss of their power to empower non-nobles while implying the nobles are incompetent.

[Keltest]

As far as personal ambition concerned, Shojo kind of has nowhere to go but down, and I recall the author saying his career did consist of kneecapping the various branches of government so that it all depended on him, personally, to function. Fryaltari made a reasonable argument that purging the other nobles might actually have served the city better in the long run.

The way I personally imagined things is that Shojo doesn't eliminate all the nobles for the same reason that Mad King Aerys didn't eliminate all the great houses in Westeros- trying to is likely to start a civil war, and you'll need somebody to fill those admin positions anyway. He might, however, try replacing some of them with candidates promoted by a more meritocratic system. But that's purely my own headcanon.

I don't think that feigning insanity would actually work for any discernible length of time when the various branches of government depend directly on you to function- if your policies are rational, you're not gonna fool anyone into thinking you're crazy. But I don't think Shojo-fakes-senility is really particularly vital to the plot, although being actually senile might explain a few things.

Remember that the senility thing is mostly a means to an end for convincing the nobles that they are the ones in charge. The only reason it works is because the nobles are not a unified force, but instead a group of similarly-powerful extremely paranoid individuals who are perfectly willing to place their own interests above that of their nation. the whole point is that he is senile enough to appear easily manipulated, but still self aware enough to fulfill his administrative duties, albeit in a manner whichever noble has the best hold on him at the time believes is best.

[Grytorm]

And also, if they succeeded in assassinating him when he was senile instead of an old apparently easily manipulated old man they would be left with a young capable paladin. They probably wouldn't be facing a purge, but it is not an ideal scenario for them.

[Lacuna Caster]

Because nobles have traditionally responded so well to the loss of their power to empower non-nobles while implying the nobles are incompetent.

Oh, they don't necessarily respond well at all. But, well, that's part of the story.

Remember that the senility thing is mostly a means to an end for convincing the nobles that they are the ones in charge. The only reason it works is because the nobles are not a unified force, but instead a group of similarly-powerful extremely paranoid individuals who are perfectly willing to place their own interests above that of their nation...

Yeah, but the thing is that I don't think this story really adds up. Shojo can't simultaneously fold the various branches of government under his direct control and still convince the nobles that their positions are secure. Those are, like, opposite things. At least for AU purposes, it's easier to say that Shojo is actually senile, and thinks he's faking it.

[Keltest]

Oh, they don't necessarily respond well at all. But, well, that's part of the story.


Yeah, but the thing is that I don't think this story really adds up. Shojo can't simultaneously fold the various branches of government under his direct control and still convince the nobles that their positions are secure. Those are, like, opposite things. At least for AU purposes, it's easier to say that Shojo is actually senile, and thinks he's faking it.

I think you've misunderstood what is going on. He didn't fold the branches of government under his control, he made himself a necessary part of their functionality. That is not the same thing.

[Lacuna Caster]

I think you've misunderstood what is going on. He didn't fold the branches of government under his control, he made himself a necessary part of their functionality. That is not the same thing.

Look, you show me a real-world example of a political leader successfully convincing everyone he was crazy while retaining final say over all major decisions within his government, and maybe this discussion can go somewhere. I'm not, offhand, familiar with many cases of this.

[Keltest]

Look, you show me a real-world example of a political leader successfully convincing everyone he was crazy while retaining final say over all major decisions within his government, and maybe this discussion can go somewhere. I'm not, offhand, familiar with many cases of this.

I'm pretty sure that highlighting specific examples would tread dangerously close to breaking the forums rules, but if you look at the history of Europe, especially medieval Europe, I'm sure you can find more than a few rulers of questionable competence who were nevertheless the legitimate ruler and therefore could not be deposed.

Also, I have to wonder, how many people do you think had regular day to day access to Lord Shojo, anyway? Its probably limited to the nobles (who actively want him in that state) and the Paladins (who are duty-bound to follow him), plus a few members of his household staff.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Look, you show me a real-world example of a political leader successfully convincing everyone he was crazy while retaining final say over all major decisions within his government

What you are asking for is "someone that was in power, but was generally seen as incompetent, and that modern day historians don't think he was as incompetent as his contemporaries thought he was". Or alternatively, that they were mad but still in power. Without breaking the "no politics" rule, to boot.

Well, we obviously cannot answer that, but there are more than a few (of both groups). You'll have to do your own legwork, though. I suggest you start with the Habsburg dynasties.

GW

[Lacuna Caster]

What you are asking for is "someone that was in power, but was generally seen as incompetent...

No, I'm not saying seen as incompetent. I'm saying seen as insane while retaining absolute control. That doesn't seem to happen, in practice. If you successfully convince everyone you're crazy, you've successfully convinced them that you need to be either killed or quietly ignored.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, I'm not saying seen as incompetent. I'm saying seen as insane while retaining absolute control. That doesn't seem to happen, in practice. If you successfully convince everyone you're crazy, you've successfully convinced them that you need to be either killed or quietly ignored.

There have been at least one king who successfully convinced their courts that they believed themselves to be dead, while still retaining power.

Paranoia, in general, is extremely common in absolute rulers. It is also a form of madness. And yet endless numbers of rulers have ruled with various degrees of success while being completely and utterly paranoid to the point of insanity.

And that's the last I'll say on the topic.

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

No, I'm not saying seen as incompetent. I'm saying seen as insane while retaining absolute control. That doesn't seem to happen, in practice. If you successfully convince everyone you're crazy, you've successfully convinced them that you need to be either killed or quietly ignored.

The Borgias come to mind. All of them.

Nero is another candidate.

Henry VIII.

Who was that Czar that Catherine The Great killed?

Alexander The Great.

Anyone who tagged themselves as The Great.

Elizabeth I.

Richard III if we can believe Shakespear.

This is getting to be like the Family Guy episode in which Stewie challenges Brian to name songs named after girls.

[Keltest]

No, I'm not saying seen as incompetent. I'm saying seen as insane while retaining absolute control. That doesn't seem to happen, in practice. If you successfully convince everyone you're crazy, you've successfully convinced them that you need to be either killed or quietly ignored.

Insane and Senile are not the same things.

[Lacuna Caster]

The Borgias come to mind. All of them.

No no. Not corrupt. Not tyrannical. Insane. For example:

Nero is another candidate.

...Who was condemned to death as a public enemy. Caligula and Commodus were assassinated.

...that Czar that Catherine The Great killed?

...Noticing a pattern here?

Besides, are any of these people you would describe as chaotic good? Once people notice you're crazy, they tend to object strongly to your decisions, and putting them in their place tends to get ugly. I hope that's not the Shojo we're referring to.

[georgie_leech]

More to the point, the senility that Shojo was going for wasn't "ruling with an iron fist and putting people under his thumb," it was "ruling with seemingly arbitrary decisions that look a lot like he is just a useful figurehead being manipulated by the nobles around him." That is, he made himself look like a useful tool, not some dangerous unknown that had to be disposed of. Which had the side effect ensuring the government was centered around him; the nobles want him to be more powerful, because they think they're calling the shots through him. And playing your political rivals off of each other is a significantly more tried-and-true method of ruling, even if the specific method is unusual.

[brian 333]

No no. Not corrupt. Not tyrannical. Insane. For example:


...Who was condemned to death as a public enemy. Caligula and Commodus were assassinated.


...Noticing a pattern here?

Besides, are any of these people you would describe as chaotic good? Once people notice you're crazy, they tend to object strongly to your decisions, and putting them in their place tends to get ugly. I hope that's not the Shojo we're referring to.

Did you note Shojo's end?

Good and Evil are not relevant here. What is is very simple:

Shojo played the fool so that he would look harmless while he played the nobles and the bureaucracy against each other. Incapable of believing a nut-job was competent, they instead attributed their failures to achieve power to their rivals instead of to Shojo. Forcefully deposing him without a sufficient power base risked putting their rival on the throne, which none of them could risk.

Often the game of politics is played to avoid losing power. Putting your rival on the throne is a certain path to lose power. Shojo stood in their rival's way, and if someone else got the blame for assassinating him that could only create potential openings to grow power through eliminating a rival.

Like the three way shootout at the end of The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly, the guy who shoots first will be the second to die. They were waiting for someone else to shoot first.

[Fyraltari]

Besides, are any of these people you would describe as chaotic good? Once people notice you're crazy, they tend to object strongly to your decisions, and putting them in their place tends to get ugly. I hope that's not the Shojo we're referring to.

Tiberius was perceived as insane by the population with numerous gossip of orgy (in the modern sense) incest and murder supposedly taking place inside his residence, during the time when he cut himself from the world and Sejanus ruled in all but name. The reputation stuck with him long after Sejanus' death to the point that it is only second to Nero's or Caligula's yet not only do modern historians have a much warmer view of him but he died of old age while still in power.

[hamishspence]

More to the point, the senility that Shojo was going for wasn't "ruling with an iron fist and putting people under his thumb," it was "ruling with seemingly arbitrary decisions that look a lot like he is just a useful figurehead being manipulated by the nobles around him." That is, he made himself look like a useful tool, not some dangerous unknown that had to be disposed of. Which had the side effect ensuring the government was centered around him; the nobles want him to be more powerful, because they think they're calling the shots through him. And playing your political rivals off of each other is a significantly more tried-and-true method of ruling, even if the specific method is unusual.

Yup. As the War & XPs Guide To Azure City said:


"While the Lord of the City can order a noble to do something, it is more common that the nobles threaten to withhold resources from the Lord's plans if they don't approve. Since the Lord is strictly bound by law in terms of what punishment (if any) he can levy against the nobles, while the nobles suffer from no such restriction, the city is de facto ruled by the nobility - unless the Lord is very clever."

"While he was considered quite shrewd in days past, illness and old age have rendered the 72-year-old monarch a shell of his former self. Let's be candid, here: He talks to his cat. Constantly. Those needing to do business in Azure City are recommended to skip directly to the true source of power and speak with one of the nobles."

Even people outside of Azure City see the nobles as the ones calling the shots.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Besides, are any of these people you would describe as chaotic good?

So now that your original claim has been widely shown to be incorrect, now you are refuging yourself in "ok, they did exist but they weren't Good". Well, despite the goal post being moved practically off the field, you are still wrong. I can argue that Shojo might have been Good personally, but he was a crappy ruler, who barely held things together. And I can argue that a number of these historical rulers were Good in the sense that they intended to improve the world and create stable governments - but because their paranoia were about as successful as Shojo.

And even if the above were not true, you still don't have a leg to stand on. It's a fictional story. The characters don't need to be copy-paste of real people to be believable (heck, I'm sure the books carry the usual U.S. disclaimer about the characters NOT being based on anyone living or dead). Shojo's methods are plausible: i.e. there is nothing inherently impossible in the way he run the government, up to and including being so unstable he was lucky to survive multiple assassination attempts, until one day his luck ran out not because of a plot but the actions of one person. None of this is, despite your claims, impossible or unbelievable.

Yes, people in power can be deranged, or make the people around them think they are. Yes, they can have Good intentions. Heck, some of them were capable rulers despite the paranoia. Yes, many of them ended up dead, sometimes at the hand of their enemies.

Grey Wolf

[martianmister]

"While he was considered quite shrewd in days past, illness and old age have rendered the 72-year-old monarch a shell of his former self. Let's be candid, here: He talks to his cat. Constantly. Those needing to do business in Azure City are recommended to skip directly to the true source of power and speak with one of the nobles."

Now I more doubtful of Shojo's claims to really rule the city while pretending to be senile. Seems like he gave up the true authority to the nobles, while he himself is busy with trolling his paladins. No one is trying to dethrone him despite of his senility because no one cares about his orders, except the Sapphire Guard.

[hamishspence]

Now I more doubtful of Shojo's claims to really rule the city while pretending to be senile. Seems like he gave up the true authority to the nobles, while he himself is busy with trolling his paladins. No one is trying to dethrone him despite of his senility because no one cares about his orders, except the Sapphire Guard.

The writers of the Guide are prone to taking things at face value:

"Editor's Note: Rumors have long been heard that Azure City is home to a secret cabal of divine spellcasters that reports only to the Lord of the City. The editors of this travel guid are pleased to announce that after many months researching the situation, they have confirmed that no such organisation exists."


Shojo's public perception, even at the international level, is of "tool of the nobles" - but he's still getting done, what he wants done. Every time he "rules in a noble's favor" or "rules against a noble" they (and possibly the people outside the kingdom who hear about the rulings, too) assume one of them is responsible for that ruling - so don't bother trying to hurt him for rulings they don't like:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html

[hroþila]

Now I more doubtful of Shojo's claims to really rule the city while pretending to be senile. Seems like he gave up the true authority to the nobles, while he himself is busy with trolling his paladins. No one is trying to dethrone him despite of his senility because no one cares about his orders, except the Sapphire Guard.

The idea is that, if you want something, you get a noble house on board and they lobby/manipulate old crazy Shojo to get it done, not that the nobles can actually get anything passed without Shojo's stamp or whatever.

[woweedd]

The idea is that, if you want something, you get a noble house on board and they lobby/manipulate old crazy Shojo to get it done, not that the nobles can actually get anything passed without Shojo's stamp or whatever.

Then Shoujo takes that into account, does whatever he was planning to do anyway, and the noble house in question either thinks they've got Shojo on their side, or thinks they were outbid. The genius of Shojo's plan is that it gives immediate plausible deniability to any unpopular decisions he makes, even though he was gonna make those decisions with or without any nobles involved. Thus, he can be a Chaotic Good, hero-of-the-people, while still making the nobles think they've got him int their various pockets. It's...This may be skirting the edge of the No-Politics rule, but it's kinda like taking bribe money to vote for something that you were planning to vote for regardless.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

it's kinda like taking bribe money to vote for something that you were planning to vote for regardless.

To stay away from RL politics, it's like the method used by Eddie Murphy in "The Distinguished Gentleman". Paraphrased "There is a vote coming up on sugar regulation. If you promise to vote against, the sugar lobby will pay you $100k. If you promise to vote in favour, the sugar-free gum manufacturers will pay you $100k".

Shojo employs the same method: figures out what he thinks is the best move, then the nobles that (for whatever actual reasons) want the same, and he "does what they want".

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

"...Those needing to do business in Azure City are recommended to skip directly to the true source of power and speak with one of the nobles."

Which, again, directly contradicts this idea that Shojo was rendering the various branches of government directly dependent on him to function. He cannot be doing both these things.

Tiberius was perceived as insane by the population with numerous gossip of orgy (in the modern sense) incest and murder supposedly taking place inside his residence, during the time when he cut himself from the world and Sejanus ruled in all but name...

If someone else is ruling in all but name, then he isn't retaining absolute control, now is he?

And even if the above were not true, you still don't have a leg to stand on. It's a fictional story...

All these examples, as far as I can tell, are proving my point. If the world thinks you're crazy, they assess whether you're the harmless kind of crazy or the dangerous kind. In the former case, they either ignore or kill you. In the latter case, they kill you unless you kill them first. Sure, this catches up with Shojo eventually, but it happens because Shojo is revealed as not crazy, not because the pretence itself invited assassination- which is exactly what would happen, which is exactly what Shojo was ostensibly trying to prevent.

Hey, didn't someone say something about 'fiction is only worthwhile for what it tells us about the real world'? I could have sworn that came up at some point.

[Fyraltari]

If someone else is ruling in all but name, then he isn't retaining absolute control, now is he?

But he was. Sejanus entire authority only existed because he was allegedly acting on Tiberius' orders, onec Tiberius ordered him errested it was immediately over (to give you an idea of the mood a the time, Sejanus was mauled odeath in the street by an angry mob). Tiberius then took control over (through another proxy though) until his death and the reputation of insanity and cruelty stuck with him.

[hroþila]

Hey, didn't someone say something about 'fiction is only worthwhile for what it tells us about the real world'? I could have sworn that came up at some point.

You're stretching the application of that quote to a ridiculous degree.

[Lacuna Caster]

But he was. Sejanus entire authority only existed because he was allegedly acting on Tiberius' orders, once Tiberius ordered him arrested it was immediately over (to give you an idea of the mood a the time, Sejanus was mauled to death in the street by an angry mob). Tiberius then took control over (through another proxy though) until his death and the reputation of insanity and cruelty stuck with him.

That's an interesting point, but the impression I get is that Sejanus lost his power because he alienated both the masses and the Senate, and although Tiberius was active in the subsequent purges the empire continued running largely on the back of the bureaucrats.

You're stretching the application of that quote to a ridiculous degree.

Shojo isn't some epic enchanter who's successfully cast a mind-warping spell on the entire city. He's just a shrewd politician using regular human abilities. You can argue that it's a background detail of minor importance, but that doesn't mean you can't critique it's plausibility.