Questions about the early strip and Sapphire Guard

[Peelee]

Do we even know that Eugene knows about Redcloak? The extent of his knowledge is shown to be far more limited than he would like.

Even if Eugene does know about Redcloak, he would also have to know about the Sapphire Guard's relationship with the Crimson Mantle to know that pulling out that info would help.

[Lacuna Caster]

Even if Eugene does know about Redcloak, he would also have to know about the Sapphire Guard's relationship with the Crimson Mantle to know that pulling out that info would help.

Not if he has a conversation with anyone in the Sapphire Guard.

[Peelee]

Not if he has a conversation with anyone in the Sapphire Guard.

So he likely didn't have a conversation with anyone in the Sapphire Guard. Problem solved.

[Keltest]

Yes, Keltest. I do. She still has more points in Survival than Belkar, which is the best independent tracking service the Order can provide. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm afraid this discussion seems to be going in circles.

I'm pretty sure that if the SG actually spotted Xykon working with the Crimson Mantle to march on another Gate, that would give them adequate pretext to intervene (though whether that's tactically wise is another matter). But ideally, they'd track him down within his window of regeneration, while he's still vulnerable, before he can march or teleport on another Gate.

I mean, you don't seem to be accepting "the SG has no plausible tracking ability to speak of" as a reason for why they cant track Xykon. I'm not even really sure how to respond to this other than to keep repeating myself. The Order isn't tracking Xykon any more than the SG is. They don't care where he is, they care where he is going. Hence the Oracle.

I feel like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Shojo's goals are in contacting the Order. Assassinating Xykon simply isn't on their agenda.

[Lacuna Caster]

So he likely didn't have a conversation with anyone in the Sapphire Guard. Problem solved.

Shojo is in the Sapphire Guard.

I mean, you don't seem to be accepting "the SG has no plausible tracking ability to speak of" as a reason for why they cant track Xykon.

Given that Shojo's actual plan to find Xykon was to co-opt a bunch of adventurers who were even worse at tracking, yes, I don't consider that a serious roadblock.

I'm pretty sure the paladins would have no strong objections to hunting down a mass-murdering deathless abomination who might be possibly connected with a larger plot to undo reality. Seems like an agreeable way to kill time. Hell, you'd probably have to tie Miko up to stop her.

[Peelee]

Shojo is in the Sapphire Guard.

Technically not, as he's not a divine caster. That's like saying the President of the US is in the military. Anyway, he clearly didn't mention anything directly to Eugene, and it's easily plausible that Eugene wasn't paying much attention to the trial, since he was going to disregard everything anyway.

[Keltest]

Shojo is in the Sapphire Guard.


Given that Shojo's actual plan to find Xykon was to co-opt a bunch of adventurers who were even worse at tracking, yes, I don't consider that a serious roadblock.

I'm pretty sure the paladins would have no strong objections to hunting down a mass-murdering deathless abomination who might be possibly connected with a larger plot to undo reality. Seems like an agreeable way to kill time. Hell, you'd probably have to tie Miko up to stop her.

As I recall, charging across continents to hunt down creatures and monsters that may or may not actually be related to the Azure City gate is behavior that Shojo and others were specifically trying to curb in the SG. Certainly its behavior that Rich has made an effort to portray as negative.

Even if not, Shojo's concern was that the defenses of the other gates were inadequate, not that Xykon specifically was going after them. That's not a problem the paladins can solve, because they specifically swore an oath to not do that exact thing. It is perhaps somewhat egotistical of him to assume that the remaining gates are not adequately defended, but given that two of them have now fallen, its not entirely unreasonable for him to be concerned.

[Lacuna Caster]

Technically not, as he's not a divine caster. That's like saying the President of the US is in the military...

Yes, but imagine said President, at the height of the Cold War, looking at a nuclear blast site and never asking his source whether the commies were involved. That's the level of oversight we're talking about here.

As I recall, charging across continents to hunt down creatures and monsters that may or may not actually be related to the Azure City gate is behavior that Shojo and others were specifically trying to curb in the SG...

So he preferred to have his agents charge across continents to hunt down persons that he knew were mostly non-evil, without informing his agents as such? I'm sure that sends a much better message.

I agree that it's entirely reasonable for him to be concerned about the remaining Gates. But the best way to protect them was to stamp out Xykon before he got there, which happily would not even violate his paladins' oaths. To repeat. This would in no way violate their oaths.

[factotum]

@brian 333, factotum: I think what you're driving at is an elaborate way of saying that Shojo is crazy, and that's totes possible, but it's not just his decision. Eugene has to agree to all this as well, and he's hard to get rid of without scuppering his trial-rigging scheme or raising awkward questions.

Can't speak for brian 333, but no, I'm not saying Shojo is crazy, nor do I believe that he is. He's just an old man who has been doing things the sneaky-sneaky way so long that he doesn't even think of doing it any other way. Eugene won't argue against Shojo's methods because (a) he's there on sufferance--he can be dismissed back to his "home plane" (the cloud) and the real deva summoned in his stead if Shojo chooses to do so, and (b) because he doesn't particularly care about the method used so long as somebody, somewhere, is trying to get closer to the goal of destroying Xykon for good.

[Keltest]

So he preferred to have his agents charge across continents to hunt down persons that he knew were mostly non-evil, without informing his agents as such? I'm sure that sends a much better message.

I agree that it's entirely reasonable for him to be concerned about the remaining Gates. But the best way to protect them was to stamp out Xykon before he got there, which happily would not even violate his paladins' oaths. To repeat. This would in no way violate their oaths.

What Shojo knew is not what the Paladins knew. As far as they were aware, Miko was sent to retrieve -alive- a group who, through ignorance or malice threatened the safety of the gates so they could defend themselves in trial.

More to the point, The Order + the defenders of whichever gate Xykon goes to next are going to have a much better chance of stopping Xykon than just the Order or just the defenders of that gate. Leaving your fortified position to go meet the enemy in theirs is extremely foolish if youre the defender.

[Jasdoif]

Why would he do that?

Suppose Eugene doesn't know Shojo's agenda in advance, that Eugene wouldn't even know Redcloak had any involvement past "chief minion" before Shojo mentioned it (assuming Shojo ever mentioned it), that Eugene knows his ego was never able to track down Xykon while he's never even tried to track down Redcloak, and that Eugene doesn't want to risk Shojo deciding that dealing with Redcloak is "good enough" for Shojo.

Eugene cares about one thing: getting into the afterlife, by ending Xykon. Delaying/preventing the world from being destroyed without removing Xykon is actually a negative from Eugene's point of view. Sending the paladins (or the Order) off on a chase towards someone they can't track is actually preferable to him; comparing to helping them keep the world and Xykon intact. Eugene's carelessness in the whole ploy is likely a result of him not caring. If his ruse is discovered, what does he care? The Sapphire Guard is a bunch of paladins; if they somehow manage to find Xykon, they'll feel morally obligated to try to take him down (just like you said), whether they want to spite Eugene for upstaging their judicial system or not.

[Peelee]

Yes, but imagine said President, at the height of the Cold War, looking at a nuclear blast site and never asking his source whether the commies were involved. That's the level of oversight we're talking about here.

With that same President being so incredibly paranoid that he acts like he is insane in order to prevent the senators from murdering him so that they may ascend to the Presidency through power plays and... this analogy is pretty broken at this point.

ETA: if you're accusing Shojo of being a crazy old man with ridiculously convoluted plans and he did not make some good or smart choices, I don't think you'll have much opposition.

[Lacuna Caster]

Can't speak for brian 333, but no, I'm not saying Shojo is crazy, nor do I believe that he is. He's just an old man who has been doing things the sneaky-sneaky way so long that he doesn't even think of doing it any other way. Eugene won't argue against Shojo's methods because (a) he's there on sufferance--he can be dismissed back to his "home plane" (the cloud) and the real deva summoned in his stead if Shojo chooses to do so, and (b) because he doesn't particularly care about the method used so long as somebody, somewhere, is trying to get closer to the goal of destroying Xykon for good.

But Shojo can't dismiss Eugene without wrecking his plan to rig the Order's trial. He also can't dismiss him at all, because he's not a cleric. Is the hyper-paranoid Shojo going to be happy explaining to his clerics why a celestial being is objecting to it's own dismissal? How would he stop the BoPLAG blurting out whatever he liked in the middle of the trial? He might be able to cow Eugene initially, but not once he actually needs him for something.

Eugene has been pretty supportive of using the most straightforward, anything-goes-expedited, no-kill-like-overkill methods for going after Xykon, and dismissive of Roy's ability to accomplish that. Why would he be okay with only Roy and his cohorts being very belatedly dispatched to perform that task? He's also a high-level wizard, which has to mean he knows about arcane magic. If all he wanted was to nudge Roy back on the right track, why not just Send to him? If he agreed to keeping the paladins in the dark, why didn't he insist on using Teleport to minimise downtime?

What Shojo knew is not what the Paladins knew. As far as they were aware, Miko was sent to retrieve -alive- a group who, through ignorance or malice threatened the safety of the gates so they could defend themselves in trial.

I don't think Miko was sent to retrieve them alive. She states that Shojo 'ordered their execution', and that she was entitled to pass sentence so long as they had an evil alignment. Why are we taking the word of a pathological manipulator over hers?

[Keltest]

I don't think Miko was sent to retrieve them alive. She states that Shojo 'ordered their execution', and that she was entitled to pass sentence so long as they had an evil alignment. Why are we taking the word of a pathological manipulator over hers?

Because we are shown a scene where he specifically orders she take them alive if at all possible? Miko is overzealous, and he says as much when confronted over it, but there were also a series of unlikely encounters that led Miko to believe that the Order was rampaging around the countryside committing evil that Shojo didn't know about.

[Peelee]

Because we are shown a scene where he specifically orders she take them alive if at all possible? Miko is overzealous, and he says as much when confronted over it, but there were also a series of unlikely encounters that led Miko to believe that the Order was rampaging around the countryside committing evil that Shojo didn't know about.

Besides, this isn't the first time that Miko attempted to kill someone who she was ordered to bring to Shojo.

[Keltest]

Besides, this isn't the first time that Miko attempted to kill someone who she was ordered to bring to Shojo.

Actually, it is the first time. That happened later.

[Lacuna Caster]

Besides, that's a scene where Miko relents from trying to kill Belkar (and all his companions) because Shojo orders her to. And this is when Miko is much, much angrier with them than their first encounter.

I don't consider 'mr scruffy says' to be reliable, because I don't think that any of Shojo's backstory can really be trusted. The author has already implied that the Crayon narrative is doctored, and as I've outlined, he and Eugene have to behave in a systemically baffling fashion if they really met at the end of book one.


EDIT: On an incidental note... there would actually have been one member of the Guard who could likely track more effectively than Miko: Argent, Hinjo's mount. Dire wolves get the Track feat and a +4 racial bonus to Survival when using scent, assuming he invested no other skill points gained from bonus HD.

He'd still have be rolling natural 20s to make any progress after arriving on-scene weeks later, but, well, food for thought.


.

[Keltest]

Besides, that's a scene where Miko relents from trying to kill Belkar (and all his companions) because Shojo orders her to. And this is when Miko is much, much angrier with them than their first encounter.

I don't consider 'mr scruffy says' to be reliable, because I don't think that any of Shojo's backstory can really be trusted. The author has already implied that the Crayon narrative is doctored, and as I've outlined, he and Eugene have to behave in a systemically baffling fashion if they really met at the end of book one.


EDIT: On an incidental note... there would actually have been one member of the Guard who could likely track more effectively than Miko: Argent, Hinjo's mount. Dire wolves get the Track feat and a +4 racial bonus to Survival when using scent, assuming he invested no other skill points gained from bonus HD.

He'd still have be rolling natural 20s to make any progress after arriving on-scene weeks later, but, well, food for thought.

Yeah, but the Guard actually likes Hinjo, and since he's the heir to the throne he probably cant be spared for weeks-long expeditions to other continents.

[hamishspence]

I don't consider the 'mr scruffy says' scene to be reliable, because I don't think that any of Shojo's backstory can really be trusted. The author has already implied that the Crayon narrative is doctored, and as I've outlined, he and Eugene have to behave in a systemically baffling fashion if they really met at the end of book one.

These flashback scenes:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

are not in crayon though.

And at the start of book 3 - bonus strips - we do see Eugene and Shojo talking - Shojo says their business is concluded - Eugene says it isn't - Shojo tricks Eugene into "having completed a task requested" (he's a Summoned creature, summoned creatures that complete a task requested, disappear).

The strip is called "Ass Dismissed".

[Lacuna Caster]

And at the start of book 3 - bonus strips - we do see Eugene and Shojo talking - Shojo says their business is concluded - Eugene says it isn't - Shojo tricks Eugene into "having completed a task requested" (he's a Summoned creature, summoned creatures that complete a task requested, disappear).

The strip is called "Ass Dismissed".

Yeah, but Eugene had already completed a task requested of him when he acted as judge at the trial. Why wouldn't that make him disappear?

Look, I'm not saying the author actually thought of the materials this way at the time, or even that he does now. But yes, I do find it easier to gloss over those non-crayon panels than I do to imagine that these two characters could be so obtuse.

[Keltest]

Yeah, but Eugene had already completed a task requested of him when he acted as judge at the trial. Why wouldn't that make him disappear?

Look, I'm not saying the author actually thought of the materials this way at the time, or even that he does now. But yes, I do find it easier to gloss over those non-crayon panels than I do to imagine that these two characters could be so obtuse.

If you want to do that, that's your prerogative, but don't expect "just ignore parts of the comic" to go very far in convincing anybody else to your way of thinking.

[hamishspence]

Yeah, but Eugene had already completed a task requested of him when he acted as judge at the trial. Why wouldn't that make him disappear?

Shojo had probably made his initial request open-ended enough that Eugene could say "my task isn't fulfilled yet".


As Eugene has said, from the beginning "I don't expect ROY to destroy Xykon - I expect Roy to (in the process of losing a lot) get information that I can pass on to Julia so SHE can destroy Xykon when she's old enough".

[Lacuna Caster]

I'd contend you already have to ignore large parts of the comic to make their behaviour seem reasonable. I'd rather say 'two known liars are lying in those panels'.

Mind you, even if Eugene visited Shojo much later, there are still points that have to be accounted for- notably, why Eugene wouldn't have more up-to-date intel on Xykon and share that with Roy, and why Miko would possibly put up delivering mail to the northern lands unless she genuinely doesn't know that Teleport spells exist. This is, however, still less baffling than the alternatives.

[hamishspence]

even if Eugene visited Shojo much later, there are still points that have to be accounted for- notably, why Eugene wouldn't have more up-to-date intel on Xykon and share that with Roy, and why Miko would possibly put up delivering mail to the northern lands unless she genuinely doesn't know that Teleport spells exist.

Miko's willing to obey orders she thinks are stupid, from a superior. As long as they are not outright evil.

That's pretty much standard for Lawful, going by Fiendish Codex 2 - obeying orders you think are "stupid" are "Obesiant acts" that draw characters closer to Lawful alignment.

[Lacuna Caster]

Shojo had probably made his initial request open-ended enough that Eugene could say "my task isn't fulfilled yet".

Yes, but then the open-ended task in question wouldn't be finished yet. It's not obvious to me that the terms of one would override the other.

This is kind of missing the point, though- if Shojo is relying on a task that Eugene agrees to in order to dismiss him, then Eugene has to legitimately agree to the task, and gets some leverage in negotiating over that. Which brings me back to my earlier points about how Eugene would probably want some more direct action here.

[factotum]

I'd contend you already have to ignore large parts of the comic to make their behaviour seem reasonable.

And as far as I can see there isn't a single person in this thread who is agreeing with you on that point. Why do you suppose that is? Are we all that stupid that we're just taking things as portrayed without any critical thought being applied, or do we just see all this differently than you do?

As for dismissing Eugene "wrecking Shojo's plan"--the plan to have the fake trial was Eugene's, not Shojo's. As far as we know, before the Order actually arrived in Azure City no-one there other than Shojo and Miko knew they existed, so he had plenty of time to dismiss Eugene and come up with another plan if he felt like it.

[Keltest]

I'd contend you already have to ignore large parts of the comic to make their behaviour seem reasonable. I'd rather say 'two known liars are lying in those panels'.

Mind you, even if Eugene visited Shojo much later, there are still points that have to be accounted for- notably, why Eugene wouldn't have more up-to-date intel on Xykon and share that with Roy, and why Miko would possibly put up delivering mail to the northern lands unless she genuinely doesn't know that Teleport spells exist. This is, however, still less baffling than the alternatives.

Only the crayon panels are narratives being told by characters. Everything else is representative of the actual events that occurred, albeit sometimes in the traditional over the top manner for the comic.

[hamishspence]

Yes, but then the open-ended task in question wouldn't be finished yet. It's not obvious to me that the terms of one would override the other.

Shojo's trick is simply asking Eugene "Could you repeat that" when he says "I'm not going anywhere."

He does, then realises what he's done (which suggests that once Eugene was summoned into the Circle, Shojo never gave him a service he must perform in the first place - his participation in the trial is entirely agreement rather than orders).

The Giant has made it clear how much of a "pompous jerk" Eugene is - in book 2, in the context of that very scene - I think his word can be taken for it when he explains what he's put Roy through and why, proving himself to be the jerk The Giant claims him to be.

[Lacuna Caster]

Miko's willing to obey orders she thinks are stupid, from a superior. As long as they are not outright evil.

Yet you are presupposing that Miko is willing to ignore Shojo's orders when it came to taking the Order alive? Is she unwaveringly obedient, or is she just interpreting things how she likes?

Even if Shojo did give her orders to deliver the letter in person, I'm not seeing what stops her from independently finding a wizard who's capable of providing Teleport services and getting to the nearest dwarven settlement. If your boss tells you to go meet with an executive on a different continent, and you can't fly, your reaction isn't to start driving overland. Your reaction is "well, how to I get to an airport"? Even if it takes you several days to get there, your reaction is still, "how do I get to an airport?" Even if it means calling up people you don't really know. Even if it means going to another city. Even if it means asking someone with an airplane to meet up with you, your reaction is still, "how do I get to an airport?"

.

[Keltest]

Yet you are presupposing that Miko is willing to ignore Shojo's orders when it came to taking the Order alive? Is she unwaveringly obedient, or is she just interpreting things how she likes?

Even if Shojo did give her orders to deliver the letter in person, I'm not seeing what stops her from independently finding a wizard who's capable of providing Teleport services and getting to the nearest dwarven settlement. If your boss tells you to go meet with an executive on a different continent, and you can't fly, your reaction isn't to start driving overland. Your reaction is "well, how to I get to an airport"? Even if it takes you several days to get there, your reaction is still, "how do I got to an airport?" Even if it means calling up people you don't really know. Even if it means going to another city. Even if it means asking someone with an airplane to meet up with you, your reaction is still, "how do I got to an airport?"

Miko gave the Order a chance to surrender. She made only a token effort at following Shojo's orders because she believed the Order to be a group of evil fiends rampaging across the landscape, but she did offer them the chance to come peacefully.