Questions about the early strip and Sapphire Guard

[Fyraltari]

For instance, trying to explain why Force-sensitives can't consistently sense each other is a losing battle.

Is that a challenge, sir ?

[Lacuna Caster]

Well then, my recommendation: Keep what you can intact, but you shouldn't mention or explain everything, certainly not if you aren't satisfied with what you'd say. (For instance, trying to explain why Force-sensitives can't consistently sense each other is a losing battle.) You presumably know why you want to write a fanfic about Miko in the first place, and it sounds like frustration with Shojo's whole decision-making process is getting in your way. So move it out of your way. Shojo clearly has the authority to dispatch his paladins without needing to elaborate on every detail, so you don't need Shojo to provide Miko with details you aren't satisfied with. (Maybe Miko's as dissatisfied with Shojo's obfuscation as you are?)

I pretty much assume that Miko- or anyone else in the Guard with a brain- would probably object to some of these decisions, but all else equal I'd just prefer if Shojo had a better excuse for his actions (either by being legit senile, or just not bumping into Eugene so early, et cetera. In part because putting up with them would reflect almost as badly on the Guard as it would on Shojo.)

As for why I'd write a story about Miko specifically... I'm not sure there's a simple answer to that. I guess one reason is that crazily-disciplined high-achieving asian women are actually doing pretty okay these days- she's powerful for reasons that are actually quasi-realistic, and might actually stand imitation to some degree. I also think that (A) both regular D&D and the universe Rich has built make for a very awkward platform for critiquing her specific dysfunctions, and (B) Miko had to be both divorced from her background and morphed into a cartoon strawman to do it. I'm not sure I have a solution to that, but someone's going to have to find one.

.

[Jasdoif]

He could easily have felt that she was strong in the Force, and just not mentioned it to anyone. There's no reason to, especially since he was accusing her of being a Rebel spy and a traitor at the time.

Exactly. Two sentences that don't even need to be written in a story, and there's never a "problem" to deal with in the first place.

[Lacuna Caster]

Exactly. Two sentences that don't even need to be written in a story, and there's never a "problem" to deal with in the first place.

One could argue that Leia's abilities are either comparatively modest or she has a subconsciously-expressed talent for concealment, but Luke is just as much of a rebel and a traitor in his eyes, and Vader's reaction is to try and recruit him- which is what you'd generally do with any untrained force-sensitives you can grab. (Vader also has no objections when Tarkin orders Leia terminated, even though she's also a high-ranking political figure and potentially useful for ransom.) Not the biggest problem with the movie though.

[hamishspence]

I'd just prefer if Shojo had a better excuse for his actions (either by being legit senile, or just not bumping into Eugene so early, et cetera. In part because putting up with them would reflect almost as badly on the Guard as it would on Shojo.)

Shojo being senile but faking a completely different kind of senility seems just too overcomplicated.

We know already that members of the Guard (O-Chul, at least) put up with tasks like cleaning Mr Scruffy's litter box - so, why can't they put up with other things - like being sent long distances without Teleport?

[Keltest]

One could argue that Leia's abilities are either comparatively modest or she has a subconsciously-expressed talent for concealment, but Luke is just as much of a rebel and a traitor in his eyes, and Vader's reaction is to try and recruit him- which is what you'd generally do with any untrained force-sensitives you can grab. (Vader also has no objections when Tarkin orders Leia terminated, even though she's also a high-ranking political figure and potentially useful for ransom.) Not the biggest problem with the movie though.

Vader also isn't the one who made the connection between Luke and Anakin though. That was Palpatine. Though why it took the Emperor himself to do that when Luke literally uses the same last name is beyond me. Vader also has no problems killing Luke on the Death Star either.

[Peelee]

One could argue that Leia's abilities are either comparatively modest or she has a subconsciously-expressed talent for concealment, but Luke is just as much of a rebel and a traitor in his eyes, and Vader's reaction is to try and recruit him- which is what you'd generally do with any untrained force-sensitives you can grab. (Vader also has no objections when Tarkin orders Leia terminated, even though she's also a high-ranking political figure and potentially useful for ransom.) Not the biggest problem with the movie though.

Leia isn't a high value political figure after the first half hour. The Emperor dissolved the Imperial Senate, so she went from Senator to 18 year old girl. And either way, she's a traitor. Also, the Empire isn't hard up for money; what would they random get for? Information on the Rebel Alliance? From whom?

Also, as far as the tracking, they are already en route to Yavin. It may be too late to change, as the Empire may already know the original destination. If this is the case, then diverting the Falcon would only lose time.

Vader also isn't the one who made the connection between Luke and Anakin though. That was Palpatine. Though why it took the Emperor himself to do that when Luke literally uses the same last name is beyond me.

Source?

[Fyraltari]

Vader also isn't the one who made the connection between Luke and Anakin though. That was Palpatine. Though why it took the Emperor himself to do that when Luke literally uses the same last name is beyond me. Vader also has no problems killing Luke on the Death Star either.

In the movie themselves, there is no reason to assume the names of the heroes of the rebellion are widely known. In both Legends and the current Expanded Universe, Vader discovered Luke's identity before ESB and didn't inform the Emperor.

EDIT : source

[Keltest]

Source?

Um... the movie? Empire Strikes Back? Theres a meeting between the emperor and Vader where Palpatine says "Luke is probably the son of Skywalker." (paraphrased), and Vader responds "How is this possible?"

[hamishspence]

Um... the movie? Empire Strikes Back? Theres a meeting between the emperor and Vader where Palpatine says "Luke is probably the son of Skywalker." (paraphrased), and Vader responds "How is this possible?"

"I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker"

Vader's surprise is apparently pretend. He's known Luke's name before that, and has been specifically hunting him.

"That is the system, and I'm sure Skywalker is with them."


In Legends at least, that TESB conversation shown from Vader's point of view, is painted as "he'd done the research but was unwilling to admit Luke was his own offspring, until Palpatine's confidence, convinced him".


Newcanon, however, has him far more convinced, much earlier.

[Peelee]

Um... the movie? Empire Strikes Back? Theres a meeting between the emperor and Vader where Palpatine says "Luke is probably the son of Skywalker." (paraphrased), and Vader responds "How is this possible?"

Really?

Darth Vader: [kneeling before Emperor Palpatine's hologram] What is thy bidding, my master?
Emperor Palpatine: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
Darth Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor Palpatine: We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker.
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
Emperor Palpatine: He could destroy us.
Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Emperor Palpatine: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
Emperor Palpatine: [intrigued] Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Darth Vader: He will join us or die, master.

Is there a new version where they add in extra dialogue? Real question here, every version I've seen has Luke namedropped as nothing but "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

[I]In Legends at least, that TESB conversation shown from Vader's point of view, is painted as "he'd done the research but was unwilling to admit Luke was his own offspring, until Palpatine's confidence, convinced him".

The novelization, I assume?

[hamishspence]

Really?

Darth Vader: [kneeling before Emperor Palpatine's hologram] What is thy bidding, my master?
Emperor Palpatine: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
Darth Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor Palpatine: We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker.
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
Emperor Palpatine: He could destroy us.
Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Emperor Palpatine: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
Emperor Palpatine: [intrigued] Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Darth Vader: He will join us or die, master.

Is there a new version where they add in extra dialogue? Real question here, every version I've seen has Luke namedropped as nothing but "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

There is - the 2004 edition (and all subsequent ones).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_...rs_re-releases

Darth Vader: What is thy bidding, my master?
Emperor Palpatine: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
Darth Vader: I have felt it.
Emperor Palpatine: We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
Darth Vader: How is that possible?
Emperor Palpatine: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.
Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Emperor Palpatine: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
Emperor Palpatine: Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Darth Vader: He will join us or die, master.

The post-PT junior novelization of TESB (published after 2004) included the new conversation, and has Vader be shocked, and has "belief rising that Anakin's son could exist"

(with it being clear that, at least to the author, before that, Vader didn't know Luke was Anakin's son):

TESB Junior novelization:

From light years away, on the planet Coruscant, the Emperor said, "There is a great disturbance in the Force."
"I have felt it," Vader said.
The Emperor continued, "We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker."
"How is that possible?" Darth Vader managed to ask through his shock. Could it be ... true?
"Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us."
"He's just a boy," Vader pointed out, the belief rising within him that Anakin's son could exist. He thought, If the Emperor knows about the boy, he also knows the fate of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Vader added, "Obi-Wan can no longer help him."
"The Force is strong with him," the Emperor said. "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
The Emperor had not said, in so many words, that the young Skywalker must die, which was fortunate because Vader had something else in mind. He told his Master, "If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally."
"Yes," said the Emperor, his expression thoughtful, as if he had not previously considered the possibility. Sith Lords had long maintained a rule of limiting their numbers to only two: one master and one apprentice - but now, the Emperor's eyes seemed to ignite, and he repeated, "Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?"
"He will join us or die, Master," Vader said. He bowed, and the Emperor's hologram faded out.
Nothing will stand in my way, Darth Vader thought. Nothing will stop me from achieving my goal. If I must search the farthest reaches of the galaxy, I will find Luke Skywalker.​

The novelization, I assume?

That - and also the Legends book The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, written by the author of that junior novelization (Ryder Windham) - who shows Vader's reaction after learning the name Luke Skywalker:

The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader​

Could there have been other Skywalkers from Tatooine? Vader allowed the possibility. After all, it wasn't an entirely uncommon name in the galaxy.​
But Anakin and Padme Amidala had been expecting a baby nineteen years ago.​
Nineteen standard years.​
It's not possible, Vader thought. I killed Padme. The baby died with her.​
Not for the first time, he wondered if the Emperor had told him the whole truth about Padme's death. But I remember choking her ... seeing her collapse on Mustafar. I was so angry with her. And yet ...​
Luke Skywalker exists.​
Vader refused to believe the notorious Rebel's surname was merely a bizarre coincidence. If he had possessed any other name, Vader would not have hesitated to report what he had learned to the Emperor. But for purely selfish reasons, Vader kept the young Rebel's name to himself. To him, Luke Skywalker was more than a mystery to be solved.​
He is ... an opportunity. As strong with the Force as he may be, he is an opportunity ... an opportunity for even greater power.​
But who is he? Who were his parents? Could he have been Obi-Wan's son? But then why was he named Skywalker and raised by the Lars family? Or was he merely trained by Obi-Wan?​
Because Obi-Wan Kenobi, Shmi Skywalker, Owen and Beru Lars, and Padme Amidala were dead, there was only one way Vader could discover the truth. He would have to ask Luke Skywalker himself. All he had to do was find him.​

[Peelee]

There is - the 2004 edition (and all subsequent ones).

Huh. Somehow I've managed to see the RotJ version with younger Anakin, but never seen the ESB version with extra Palps dialogue. Interesting. Although...

Though why it took the Emperor himself to do that when Luke literally uses the same last name is beyond me.

It wasn't an issue until they decided to make it an issue. Which is also beyond me.

[brian 333]

When reason meets faith, one or the other must bend. Shojo and Miko bend toward faith. Their absolute belief precludes any rational explanation.

Miko dismisses any defense the Oots may have because she believes they are guilty of capital crimes. All subsequent information which can be contrived to support this belief is accepted at face value, and all information which can exonerate them is ignored or seen in the worst possible way. For example, Roy didn't want to stay in the inn for comfort, but because he intended to destroy it, as can be seen by the result, thus proving once again that Roy deserves the death her master has decreed.

You and I know that to be circular logic, but faith can over rule reason. It's all too common in the real world.

It is a mistake to view anything Shojo or Miko does through the lens of reason, because they do not see the world as existing by logical rules. They know without a doubt that the world was made for them by gods who watch over them. Ideas such as fate are not only wishful thinking on their part; they are scientifically demonstrateable truths of the Stickverse.

Miko is not insane to think herself special. What we see as insanity is simply the fact that she never gave thought to the idea that she is not the only special kid in the class.

[Fyraltari]

We know already that members of the Guard (O-Chul, at least) put up with tasks like cleaning Mr Scruffy's litter box - so, why can't they put up with other things - like being sent long distances without Teleport?

He also put up with arbitrarily sending three people to jail without trial for an indefinite period of time.

More importantly, he and the entire SG pput up with taking orders from someone they actually believe to be senile, ie unfit for the job. Why haven't they retired him again?

[brian 333]

He also put up with arbitrarily sending three people to jail without trial for an indefinite period of time.

More importantly, he and the entire SG pput up with taking orders from someone they actually believe to be senile, ie unfit for the job. Why haven't they retired him again?

Rules.

They have no rules requiring sanity in their leaders. They do have rules requiring obedience.

[Fyraltari]

Rules.

They have no rules requiring sanity in their leaders. They do have rules requiring obedience.

What's the difference between LG and LN again? Because when the rules say the guy who think his cattalks to him should bein charge of protecting a tear in reality leading to a deicide monster, I think it would be Good to change the rules. I mean, kings getting abdicted or casually ignored in favor of their adult heir when they could not do their job correctly has happened in RL.

Don't get me wrong, I realize why setting a precedent of "I don't think the guy in charge is not qualified so I should take over" is a bad idea but come on, the world's at stake here.

[Keltest]

What's the difference between LG and LN again? Because when the rules say the guy who think his cattalks to him should bein charge of protecting a tear in reality leading to a deicide monster, I think it would be Good to change the rules. I mean, kings getting abdicted or casually ignored in favor of their adult heir when they could not do their job correctly has happened in RL.

Don't get me wrong, I realize why setting a precedent of "I don't think the guy in charge is not qualified so I should take over" is a bad idea but come on, the world's at stake here.

Because his senility hasn't dramatically affected his competence. He may be a loon, but he's a capable loon. Shojo was walking a fine line between "capable enough to keep on the throne" and "crazy enough to not worry about"

[brian 333]

What's the difference between LG and LN again? Because when the rules say the guy who think his cattalks to him should bein charge of protecting a tear in reality leading to a deicide monster, I think it would be Good to change the rules. I mean, kings getting abdicted or casually ignored in favor of their adult heir when they could not do their job correctly has happened in RL.

Don't get me wrong, I realize why setting a precedent of "I don't think the guy in charge is not qualified so I should take over" is a bad idea but come on, the world's at stake here.

Who, besides the crazy cat-whisperer, is even aware that the world is at stake? This is OOC information for everyone not present when the crayon cutaway happened.

And the nobles, expressed in the character of Kubotu, are trying to remove Shojo. They just need a technicality, such as would be presented were it known Shojo was involving himself in activities at other gates, or a successful assassination.

[Fyraltari]

Because his senility hasn't dramatically affected his competence. He may be a loon, but he's a capable loon. Shojo was walking a fine line between "capable enough to keep on the throne" and "crazy enough to not worry about"

I guess that make sense. I'm still thinking the guard is more concerned with Lawful than with Good.

Who, besides the crazy cat-whisperer, is even aware that the world is at stake? This is OOC information for everyone not present when the crayon cutaway happened.

The members of the Sapphire Guard. Like every single one of them. This is the second thing they tell them.

And the nobles, expressed in the character of Kubotu, are trying to remove Shojo. They just need a technicality, such as would be presented were it known Shojo was involving himself in activities at other gates, or a successful assassination.

Nope. The Nobles think they are controlling Shojo and dispute the illusory control with each other.
Kubota is trying to overthrow Hinjo, who is sane, young and sure of himself.
But the Nobles aren't privy to the secret of the Gates.

Or are you saying the Guard tolerate Shojo as a leader for fear of the Nobles' reaction?

[KorvinStarmast]

Leaving your fortified position to go meet the enemy in theirs is extremely foolish if youre the defender.

Just to get a little war gamish here, and actual military theory, look up "spoiling attack" and "sally ports" (which go back as far as Romans on Hadrian's Wall*) for examples of where the defenders do just that. You do have to pick your spots/time in order not to lose your general advantage (see Clausewitz and Sun Tzu both) that being the defender gives.

*See also Trojans sallying forth from Troy and setting fire to the ships of the Greeks ...

She states out loud that her master has ordered their execution. If, as most of you are maintaining, Shojo ordered the exact opposite, she is clearly interpreting her master's order very, very loosely. Why, then, is she willing to traipse over hundreds of miles on a mission she knows perfectly well to be a massive waste of her time?

The same reason a lot of us who served did that very thing on numerous occasions: we were being good soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines, and our time is theirs to use/expend/waste since they are in command.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah, I'm not getting sucked into a major debate on Star Wars here. Next.

Because his senility hasn't dramatically affected his competence. He may be a loon, but he's a capable loon. Shojo was walking a fine line between "capable enough to keep on the throne" and "crazy enough to not worry about"

And the nobles, expressed in the character of Kubota, are trying to remove Shojo. They just need a technicality, such as would be presented were it known Shojo was involving himself in activities at other gates, or a successful assassination.

I'm of the opinion that if Shojo was acting crazy enough to convince people he was genuinely senile, he'd be crazy enough to remove from power, particularly if unpopular policies were what prompted the ruse to begin with. That sounds like a Mad King situation to me.

You could also just leave the senility out, pretend or otherwise. It doesn't actually make a great deal of difference to the plot- Shojo doesn't need to be senile to be a scheming manipulator, and what he is caught in the act of doing with the OOTS is more than enough to mount criminal charges. It's not like his ostensible symptoms resemble actual dementia so much as mild eccentricity. Actual dementia is pretty painful to watch.

The same reason a lot of us who served did that very thing on numerous occasions: we were being good soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines, and our time is theirs to use/expend/waste since they are in command.

I think it's been suggested in this case that Miko actually may have used Teleport here, since her total trip time was only one week. But that's not really the point. If Miko is a stickler for her orders, however ridiculous, then she's a stickler for her orders, however ridiculous.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I'm not getting sucked into a major debate on Star Wars here. Next.

Somewhere else, maybe?

[Keltest]

Yeah, I'm not getting sucked into a major debate on Star Wars here. Next.




I'm of the opinion that if Shojo was acting crazy enough to convince people he was genuinely senile, he'd be crazy enough to remove from power, particularly if unpopular policies were what prompted the ruse to begin with. That sounds like a Mad King situation to me.

You could also just leave the senility out, pretend or otherwise. It doesn't actually make a great deal of difference to the plot- Shojo doesn't need to be senile to be a scheming manipulator, and what he is caught in the act of doing with the OOTS is more than enough to mount criminal charges. It's not like his ostensible symptoms resemble actual dementia so much as mild eccentricity. Actual dementia is pretty painful to watch.

Remember that the nobles actually want Shojo to remain in power because they believe that theyre manipulating him. The Guard, meanwhile, doesn't really have much of an option unless Shojo becomes dangerous to himself or others through his senility.

[Lacuna Caster]

@Keltest: If all the nobles think Shojo is being manipulated by them, Shojo is never going to have an opening to introduce policies they don't like. If he champions some policy that one or more nobles seriously dislike, that prompts an assassination anyway. Or at least that's how I see it working out.

Miko dismisses any defense the Oots may have because she believes they are guilty of capital crimes. All subsequent information which can be contrived to support this belief is accepted at face value, and all information which can exonerate them is ignored or seen in the worst possible way.

If by 'ignored', you mean, 'Miko accepts their word that they have evil twins responsible for most of their associated crimes', then yes, Miko is interpreting the evidence in the worst possible light.

You know... going back and reading the early strips I'm just struck by how much simpler everyone's life would have been if this whole trial-rigging kerfuffle had been bypassed. *sigh* I miss those days.

Somewhere else, maybe?

I dunno man. I feel like I should be doing work, or something.

[Keltest]

@Keltest: If all the nobles think Shojo is being manipulated by them, Shojo is never going to have an opening to introduce policies they don't like. If he champions some policy that one or more nobles seriously dislike, that prompts an assassination anyway. Or at least that's how I see it working out.

Well, its not how it worked out. Shojo says as much. If one of the nobles don't like that policy, they assume a different noble who did like it manipulated Shojo better than they did that time.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, its not how it worked out. Shojo says as much. If one of the nobles don't like that policy, they assume a different noble who did like it manipulated Shojo better than they did that time.

And as a consequence, if they feel the need to break out the poison or the ninjas, they direct them to the nobles that they feel benefit from said policy, rather than Shojo. Unstable oligarchies throughout history had been rife with that kind of thing: who they suspect is responsible mattering far more than the puppet whose strings everyone thinks they are pulling.

GW

[Lacuna Caster]

And as a consequence, if they feel the need to break out the poison or the ninjas, they direct them to the nobles that they feel benefit from said policy, rather than Shojo. Unstable oligarchies throughout history had been rife with that kind of thing: who they suspect is responsible mattering far more than the puppet whose strings everyone thinks they are pulling.

It's possible I suppose, but that also winds up killing off the nobles who actually agree with Shojo's policies. Not an ideal strategy for maintaining your long-term power-base.

[Keltest]

It's possible I suppose, but that also winds up killing off the nobles who actually agree with Shojo's policies. Not an ideal strategy for maintaining your long-term power-base.

That implies that the nobles can be split into groups who consistently side with or against shojo. I would also suggest that the fact that Azure City has any nobility at all indicates that assassination attempts fail more often than not.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That implies that the nobles can be split into groups who consistently side with or against shojo.

Given that Shojo's strategy is to play the nobles against each other so that he, in the eye of the storm, can rule as he sees fit, I'd say he would take very careful steps to ensure no one noble family is permanently in favour of his decissions.

I would also suggest that the fact that Azure City has any nobility at all indicates that assassination attempts fail more often than not.

If history is any guide, assassination attempts do fail quite often - usually because it is impossible for the assassin to access the target without bribing or otherwise removing low-level targets in the way, and that's not easy to do without raising alarms. It is a very low-odds (if high-reward) way of dealing with a rival, if they have any kind of security at all (but does have the advantage of being hard to track back to the source, even when they fail).

GW