Running a shadowrun game in starfinder

[Shackled Slayer]

Ok, so i have starfinder rules, my friend has shadowrun. Shadowrun is a complex maze and nobody knows how to roll anything up, or how hacking is supposed to work, and allot of it is just kind of... All over the place. My players are a gaggle of attention deficit chaotic jokers, they cant really handle allot of complicated crunch. I have taken pains to have some fundamental understanding of the system, but my friend who owns the book is about as reliable as a peg leg with termites when it comes to playing RPGs regularly.

Problem is, I REALLY like shadowrun's atmosphere. A Post apocalypse cyber punk corporate wasteland, where the players are actually supposed to be law breaking renegade loose cannons and get involved in drugs and such (which they do more than i care to admit) sounds awesome.

So what are your thoughts on this idea? What should i cut, what i should i keep? How does the flavor get affected by the system transplant?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Is your group familiar with 3.5/Pathfinder type stuff? If not, I doubt Starfinder would be much easier. Maybe try a rules-light game like The Sprawl (an Apocalpyse World hack) or Nova Praxis (Fate-based)?

[Anonymouswizard]

Starfinder is probably more complex than Shadowrun. I recommend possibly looking into a lighter system, Fate is available as a Pay What You Want PDF and Gate Accelerated is simple and can handle almost anything (Core is meatier because it's detailing a system you're meant to adjust instead of a specific build to use as is).

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Starfinder is probably more complex than Shadowrun.

...No, no it really isn't. Shadowrun is an extremely complex system, made worse by poor design, significant errors-carried-forward from previous content, and appalling editing. Compared to that, Starfinder - still at heart a d20 knockoff, albeit a significantly streamlined one - is a model of simplicity and elegant design.

[Shackled Slayer]

Firstly, i've been running pathfinder/3.5 for roughly four years now and a on-again-off-again starfinder campaign for 4 months or so. My group and i are extremely well versed in both currently. Probably should have mentioned that when i originally posted...

Secondly, the area my group is having trouble in is magic and especially hacking, and i cant seem to be able explain it clearly enough for them. I even wrote out the basic underlying equations for things like spellcasting and calculating drain. There's one player who gets it but she's kind of the resident supercomputer. The guy who owns the book is stubborn and wont accept my help.

The only reason why i chose starfinder is because it's part of a gaming system design so familiar to my group that it's practically ubiquitous.

[Anonymouswizard]

I honestly never found Shadowrun that bad, apart from the Matrix (I honestly didn't see good hacking rules in a game before Eclipse Phase). A bit fiddly, especially in my preferred Third Edition, but completely fine in realspace and the astral plane.

Now I don't own Starfinder, but I found it a clear example of overexploitation. Levelled weapons kind of killed it for me, bit it has that ability overload that Congress from modern class systems, to the point where spellcasters can't just cast spells, they've for to be able to 'hack' them or whatever. It's not a bad system, but there's a lot of systems with bits that make me ask why (in GURPS the different type of lasers ate actually legitimately different, with different advantages and disadvantages, and so there's a reason for six different leader pistols).

It's a case of perspective, and after third Qualities become too expected for me but before that it's definitely somewhere between World of Darkness and 3.X.

Edit: can't remember drain that well, bit as I remember it was relatively simple in 5e. Pick Force, use equation, roll to resist Stun damage if Force≤Magic, otherwise damage is equal. 3e has a difference in it having a handful of different types of drain instead of reach spell having it's own equation. I actually like sun, it's relatively simple but doesn't give a set number of spells before you're out, allowing for risk versus reward gameplay.

The real complexity in the magic system is summoning, and I'm banned from using summoning to run my car. It's also relatively abusable, like summoning always is.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Firstly, i've been running pathfinder/3.5 for roughly four years now and a on-again-off-again starfinder campaign for 4 months or so. My group and i are extremely well versed in both currently. Probably should have mentioned that when i originally posted...

Oh. Well, in that case, disregard my earlier post. Maybe try posting on the 3e boards? You might get more Starfinder replies there.

[RazorChain]

I think you aren't giving your players enough credit or truly you are running games for idiots.

I made a character in Shadowrun by just skimming the rules and had the GM help me out in a session zero. I never read the rulebook but had no problem playing both a physical adept and a street samurai. I just picked up the rules as I played and the system wasn't that much harder than other crunchy systems.

Of course I hold my GMs to higher standards of system mastery than myself as a player. I don't have to know penalties or modifiers to rolls, it's the GMs role to assign modifiers. My job is to know what says on my character sheet.


So if your players have an inkling of an interest to learn a new system or just the basics of it then it should go fine. If they are like this "Something other than D20? No we won't play subpar systems as everybody knows that D&D is the bestest and greatest roleplaying system ever conceived. It's like the Pope and the Catholic church; INFALLIBLE!" Then you'd probably better off with Starfinder.

[Knaight]

I'd also call Shadowrun lighter than Starfinder, but there's arguments to be made in both directions and as you're already familiar Starfinder is probably a decent option - albeit one that pushes for a different feel and that will be fighting against you a bit.

With that said, there's always Shadowrun: Anarchy. It's a spinoff built around a fundamentally different rules set, and it's genuinely much lighter.

[Shackled Slayer]

@ Grod_the_Giant: would 3e be a more appropriate place for this? I chose this forum because it was listed as "other" and i don't know if starfinder is close enough to 3e what with it's changes to the HP/stamina system and introduction of several other mechanics. Im also looking for tips on moving shadowrun into another system so i don't know if that affects where this post should go also.

@ Knaight: they are roughly the same in complexity, but my players are just used to pathfinder/3e rules. And are lazy... So lazy -_-

@ Razochain: they aren't idiots so much as extremely lazy. As a shadowrun GM i've never really been able to talk them into playing, my friend who owns the core Shadowrun book only ever runs a single session before abandoning the game. I have enough of an understanding to want to play it, but...
My friends are too comfortable rolling characters in systems they know well enough to optimize and practically make things in their sleep.

@ anonymouswizard: I agree, shadowrun is a great system. My friends just dont want to play using it because making a character is "too much work" or "too fiddly". So I'm just trying to get them to play SOMETHING like shadowrun in terms of setting. 9 times out of 10 I'm the GM, and I'm kind of tired of "ye olde fantasy". Space is cool, but i like the way shadowrun handles magic in an urban environment and want to explore it more. With regards to starfinder's leveled weapons, its not actually too limiting, it's more of a tool for the GM to prescribe when you can get 'em. Allot like how shadowrun handles "restricted" gear, it's mostly just the book saying "most players shouldnt have this gear before level X, but if you want to let them have the molecular doshko then that's your right". I use the "rule of cool" all over the place lol.

[Anonymouswizard]

@ anonymouswizard: I agree, shadowrun is a great system. My friends just dont want to play using it because making a character is "too much work" or "too fiddly". So I'm just trying to get them to play SOMETHING like shadowrun in terms of setting. 9 times out of 10 I'm the GM, and I'm kind of tired of "ye olde fantasy". Space is cool, but i like the way shadowrun handles magic in an urban environment and want to explore it more. With regards to starfinder's leveled weapons, its not actually too limiting, it's more of a tool for the GM to prescribe when you can get 'em. Allot like how shadowrun handles "restricted" gear, it's mostly just the book saying "most players shouldnt have this gear before level X, but if you want to let them have the molecular doshko then that's your right". I use the "rule of cool" all over the place lol.

Maybe it's because I'm used to point buy, but even the priority system never systems complex to me. Pick Race, pick if you want magic, adept powers, or technomancy, order attributes, skills, and resources and spend points.

Also there is a difference, Starfinder, like 3.P, does expect you to get better gear as you level, while Shadowrun doesn't (you'll mainly upgrade with cyber or focuses on the Nuyen track). Plus you can start with the high end stuff of you're willing to make the sacrifice to grab that 1,000,000 Nuyen starting amount

But I completely understand wanting something different, I spend a lot of time trying to get groups to play anything science fiction. I adore SF gaming, and like science fantasy as well, but so many people I play with only want D&D style fantasy.

[RazorChain]

Getting players to try different systems can be hard I guess. Luckily I don't suffer from this problem. But the first step is to get them out of their comfort zone and have them try else you'll be stuck playing the same system with this group forever.

The reason that D&D is most popular is that people have a hard time getting out of their comfort zone and try new things

[Shackled Slayer]

But steering this back on point, how could i modify the starfinder system to emulate shadowrun better? One obvious choice would be removing space travel for the most part, but should i make most of the ranged weapons analog? Or maybe just lessen the weapons list allot? I already allow pretty high level starting gear so i would probably just throw out the limits for the most part. Should I Have the players Create cars instead of starships? What races should i allow?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd stick to the classic Shadowrun races (humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, I think? Were there trolls, too?) and cut out the space stuff, yeah. Vehicle rules in general seem like they'd be less important. You could probably use the same sorts of weapons, but the big thing you'd need would be hacking rules, right? Unless Starfinder has those?

[Shackled Slayer]

I'd need to thumb through my core book but i think it does have hacking rules, but I'll likely tinker with it and make it more involved. And yeah trolls are a thing. I might keep one or two of the starfinder races like ysoki or shirren. I'm just trying to think of anything else i need to really sell it as shadowrun in a D20 system.

[Anonymouswizard]

Races are humans (boring), elves (quick and very pretty), dwarves (tough and stubborn), orcs (strong and tough), and trolls (very strong and very tough).

The main problem is that the SR archetypes and SF classes don't quite mesh. In SR you have the Street Samurai, the Face, the Rigger (does have a direct analog, but only drone riggers), the Mage (closest analog is somewhere between PF's Wizard and Sorcerer), the Shaman (no chance), the infiltration specialist, the Decker, the Investigator, and so on. From what I remember of SF you have to lift having wholesale from somewhere, so you'll have to know if you want a pre or post Crash 2.0 setting. While the wireless mesh version of the Matrix is cool the setting starts glorifying what would have previously been regarded as runners, and abandoning the idea of 'in and out without firing a shot'.

Which is another problem with SF. Combat in SR is something best avoided, both because it alerts people to your presence and because it quickly becomes deadly. Despite the large weapon list you're supposed to be carrying a pistol, maybe a sub machine gun, and possibly a melee weapon, with spare ammunition. One team member might have a rifle if you think you'll need a sniper, but concealable weapons are generally the best (although you should be able to get a licence to carry a pistol).

[Shackled Slayer]

The name of the game is catering to my players here, unfortunately for me, anonymouswizard.

Every game we have "that guy" who would prefer to go in guns blazing rather than stealth things out or tom clancy slpinter cell the opposition, or he actively instigates conflicts. It's a problem i deal with in any game because he plays it chaotic stupid, and i'm enough of a anti-social personality that i only have a single 5 person pool of players, "that guy" being ubiquitous in the group. Funny thing is his favorite class is rogue in pathfinder. He's not a bad player or anything, he just likes to roll combat.

With regards to the classes not meshing, I'd have to disagree. starfinder has enough lattitude within the classes that a player can work to fit any given archetype in shadowrun with the right allocation of points and focuses. Mystic alone has assimilated clerics, wizards, druids, and sorcerors as well as added some focuses for other styles of caster that really it can emulate any committed magic user. Technomancer directly ports pretty easilly, operative covers stealth gunners and hackers, soldiers are the guns blazing street samurai, etcetera. The classes aren't all that big hairy of a problem.

With lethality in combat, i can easilly create NPCs that could wipe the floor with the PCs, but again, im trying to cater this to the players i have access to. Two out three of them want to get into firefights often and with gusto. I could run a couple of encounters that reinforce that if they have to kill a guy, then they need to make it quick and clean lest they attract more combatants than they can manage, but I have to play to what they want as much as to what the system is intended to do.

[Anonymouswizard]

Here's the thing, everybody expects fights in SR, that's why runners carry a pistol. A run should generally go bad when the players run into security, and that's not a bad thing. But in 1e-3e runners who planned on getting into a fought would be regarded as bad runners. A good number of runs highly benefit from not killing anybody, and Johnson's would rather you not kill their employees of you're ever hired against them (which they'd prefer you didn't do). You could still carry a SMG around with you, but you would not want to use it.

4e and 5e more accepting of Pink Mohawks, to the point some of the modern signature characters are violent enough that they would have been considered bad runners back in the day. Which is sad, the preference for in and out without a shot being fired made early SR feel more real.

(Not that there isn't a place for highly violent cyberfantasy games, but to me those games can't really be Shadowrun.)

[Lord Torath]

I would argue that Shadowrun has "classes" (archetypes) and "roles". Main archetypes are Rigger, Decker, Magician (Mage or Shaman, Full Magician or Adept), Physical Adept, and Street Samurai. Roles are Face, Intel Gathering, Combat (ranged and/or melee), Utility, Equipment Requisition, and Hacking. I have probably missed some roles, and someone will point out that I've missed Their Favorite Archetype, but those are the basics.

Making sure all the roles are filled is more important than having all the archetypes, and almost any archetype can masterfully fulfill any role. Most characters can't easily fill more than two roles and still be effective, though.

Ignore the Anonymous Wizard, though. Pink Mohawks is just as valid a playstyle as Mirror Shades. I certainly prefer the latter (as does AnonWiz, obviously), but Kick-in-the-Door Blow-up-the-Door Pink Mohawks can still be fun. Just need to give them jobs where collateral damage is not an issue. Maybe they can be working for one particular corp, instead of working for any random Johnson who needs something done.

[Anonymouswizard]

I can be snobby if I want to!

But yeah, I'm more of a classic mirrorshades players, I love sessions where no attacks ate rolled in any system. The mark of a great plan is when swords and guns aren't drawn.

Actually, the SR character I most want to play is a teenage Ork Decker who goes by Mirrorshades because it's [/I]like so cool[/I]. Primary skills are Computers (with associated specialties), Electronics Repair, Persuade, Deceive, and Unarmed with high Intelligence, Quickness, and Body. A mixture between a street kid and a nerd who grew up idolising runners. I think the build is more on the intelligence gathering side, lost the sheet and don't have access to my book yet. Skills A, Resources B, Attributes C (and highly focused), Metatype D, Magic E, going by 3e priorities.

[Shackled Slayer]

Personally i would like to see a mix in the games i intend to run of "mirror shades" and "pink mohawk" (are those shadowrun specific phrases?).

But i can only run what my players intend to follow on plot hooks.

So starfinder shirrens; i think an insectoid Player race would be cool, how might i implement it into shadowrun'sd existing lore? An ever rising tide of magic? Or perhaps a newly discovered race who up to this point has been avoiding detection? Or maybe a cockroach nest got drecked by a mana-well and transmuted the survivors into a new meta-race? What sounds the most plausible for the shadowrun world?

Same basic question for ysoki.

[Lord Torath]

Insectoid race. Oooo, I don't know about that. Are you familiar at all with Insect Spirits and the Universal Brotherhood? The Chicago outbreak? If you're planning on sticking with Shadowrun lore, an insect race might not be the best idea....

Rat people might be interesting, but they'd likely face the same problems awakened shapeshifters do: lack of recognition as a human/metahuman by government. With the added "bonus" of being unable to pass as a regular human. Are Sasquatch recognized as Human/Metahuman? If so, it's possible your skaven Ysoki might be able to gain recognition as well. If it's people turning into ratmen, they're more likely to gain acceptance. If it's rats becoming ratmen, their chances approach zero.

There's also the "Surge" stuff that happened when Comet Halley comes/came by in 2061. I don't know what time period you're playing in, and I'm not that familiar with the timeline after about 2056. But I seem to recall that people spontaneously got things like tails, fur, scales, and/or animal ears. I don't remember just how the various governments responded to that.

[Morty]

I can grasp Pathfinder rules, even though I loathe the system. But Shadowrun still gave me a headache with the sheer density when I tried making characters for it, in 4E and 5E. But a lot of it may be simple familiarity. If I spent more time on SR, maybe I'd get used to its rules as I had to 3E D&D's.

[No-Kill Cleric]

If you want to start introducing Shadowrun, a lot of the game is in the mindset. DMing runs and playing in the style of "don't get caught" instead of wading through the dungeon, slaughtering all in sight will make a huge difference in how the game feels. No matter the mechanics, a lot of it comes down to playing like a Shadowrunner.