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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Dragonwrought kobold

    I've had my eye on dragonwrought kobolds for a while and I've been tallying up what they can do. Correct me I'm wrong but they

    Qualify as true dragons(draconomicon states a creature with the dragon type and 12 age categories is a true dragon) allowing them to...

    -form dragon pacts: burn hp for gold and spell slots

    -use dragon auras: burn spell slots and spells known for constant effects

    -take epic feats

    Xorvintaal template: you lose racial spell casting but gain abilities based of age category (like potentially adding +20 to all of your saves for perspective)

    Lore Drake: dragons of ebberon for straight up +2 sor level

    Kobold ritual stuff: web enhancement straight up +1 sor level

    Is there anything I missed? Fill me in on other things, preferably level one

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Gain benefits of age categories but not suffer penalties (so Venerable => +3 Int, +3 Wis, +3 Cha).

    Gain access to [Epic] feats if Old age category or older. Since you're already Venerable for the free stats, this is gravy.

    Arguably, gain access to anything that requires the (Dragonblood) subtype without needing to meet any of the prereqs. I don't personally favor that interpretation, but it does exist.

    Get the web enhancement which gives you Claw/Claw/Bite, and you're qualified for Rapidstrike, which can be useful in certain builds.


    As a True Dragon, you're eligible for a Draconic Psychosis like Spellhoarding, which replaces your Sorcerer casting with eidetic Wizard casting of the same level. So take Stalwart Battle Sorcerer and sell off your Sorcerer slots for whatever (Draconic Auras, Maneuvers through that other Sovereign Archetype, pact nonsense, ACFs which give you SLAs in trade for Sorc spells known or slots, etc.) -- then ignore your Sorcerer casting entirely and cast as a Wizard.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrunkpotato5 View Post
    Is there anything I missed?
    rulebook the GM threw at your face

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    rulebook the GM threw at your face
    That's not what he missed -- that's what misses him.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    This is HIGHLY dependent on what your DM says. You're opening a thread that's going to immediately devolve into a massive difference of opinions. Kind of like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrunkpotato5 View Post
    I've had my eye on dragonwrought kobolds for a while and I've been tallying up what they can do. Correct me I'm wrong but they

    Qualify as true dragons(draconomicon states a creature with the dragon type and 12 age categories is a true dragon) allowing them to...
    No. They gain the dragon type, nothing more. True dragons have increases in power built into their age categories, including increases to ability scores, armor class, damage, hit dice/points, and more. Dragonwrought kobolds do not.

    -form dragon pacts: burn hp for gold and spell slots
    -use dragon auras: burn spell slots and spells known for constant effects
    Xorvintaal template: you lose racial spell casting but gain abilities based of age category (like potentially adding +20 to all of your saves for perspective)
    Lore Drake: dragons of ebberon for straight up +2 sor level
    Not a true dragon, so no.

    -take epic feats
    Sure, at 21 levels and/or hit dice or higher, just like everything else. This isn't due to the kobold being a dragon, though, it's because the Epic Level Handbook explicitly states the only two ways a character can get epic feats. Old true dragons might get a pass but IIRC all true dragons have 21+ HD at old age anyway, so it's a moot point.

    Kobold ritual stuff: web enhancement straight up +1 sor level
    Nothing there requires dragonwrought, just 6+ hit dice, among other things.
    It doesn't matter how many classes you mash together, it's still "just" gestalt. Not tri-, not quad-, not penta-; gestalt.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Gain access to [Epic] feats if Old age category or older. Since you're already Venerable for the free stats, this is gravy.
    True dragons have no "venerable" entry in age category lists. How should it be projected to true dragons age category scale? Xorvintaal adds +1 insight save for each two age categories. How much bonus would venerable dragonwrought kobold have?

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    True dragons have no "venerable" entry in age category lists. How should it be projected to true dragons age category scale? Xorvintaal adds +1 insight save for each two age categories. How much bonus would venerable dragonwrought kobold have?
    Dragonwrought Kobolds have humanoid age categories and dragon age categories: their humanoid age category (Venerable) gives them stat boosts, their dragon age category give them access to [Epic] feats.

    I'm assuming that humanoid age categories go like: Child, Adolescent, Adult, Middle Age, Old, Venerable -- though only the latter 4 appear in the PHB.

    Since they have Ancient Wyrm (for 2x 12) and Venerable (for 2x 6), that bonus could get pretty darn high.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Dragonwrought Kobolds have humanoid age categories and dragon age categories: their humanoid age category (Venerable) gives them stat boosts, their dragon age category give them access to [Epic] feats.

    I'm assuming that humanoid age categories go like: Child, Adolescent, Adult, Middle Age, Old, Venerable -- though only the latter 4 appear in the PHB.

    Since they have Ancient Wyrm (for 2x 12) and Venerable (for 2x 6), that bonus could get pretty darn high.
    I'm curious how exactly I should read RAW to come to same conclusion.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    I'm curious how exactly I should read RAW to come to same conclusion.
    Character X is a Dragonwrought Kobold.

    Character X has an age. This age is a number, which we will call N.

    Character X is a kobold. To see the effect of aging, look up N on the kobold aging effects table (Races of the Dragon, p.39, table 3-3). The effects are listed as accruing to humanoid age categories, therefore Character X must have a humanoid age category.

    Character X is a Dragonwrought Kobold. To see the character's age category, look up N on the kobold age category table (Races of the Dragon, p.39, table 3-2). Character X is a dragon, thanks to the Dragonwrought feat, so this age category is the age category of a dragon. Therefore, this character must have a dragon age category.

    Table 3-2 and table 3-3 are literally on the same page. There's no subtle RAW interpretation necessary to see that both must be valid at the same time.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Therefore, this character must have a dragon age category.
    Counter-example. Draconians has type "dragon" but normal age categories. True dragons is subspecies of dragons that have different aging categories.

    update: I looked into the Monster Manual, page 308, dragon type. It says nothing about aging. So I believe a dragonwraught kobold would keep his original aging mechanics since newly applied type says nothing about it.
    Last edited by ayvango; 2017-12-25 at 12:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    Counter-example. Draconians has type "dragon" but normal age categories. True dragons is subspecies of dragons that have different aging categories.
    The Kobold has draconic age categories because table 3-2 specifically tells you to apply dragon age categories to a kobold.

    There's no such table for Draconians, nor text telling you to apply dragon age categories.

    The specific text for Kobolds trumps the general text.


    You're not presenting a counter example, you're just showing that some non-Kobold isn't important enough to get a special rule. That's fine, since Kobolds are special.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    The Kobold has draconic age categories because table 3-2 specifically tells you to apply dragon age categories to a kobold.
    I see. Races of the Dragon kobolds differs greatly from MM1 kobolds.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    I see. Races of the Dragon kobolds differs greatly from MM1 kobolds.
    Kobolds vary even more with the web enhancements and UA terrain variants.

    More sources, more choices, more power.

    Welcome to D&D.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Why do Kobolds get all the love? Did wizards of the coast think "should we give the little lizard man cool features OR ONE OF THE CORE RACES? Yep, lizard man it is" Humans get close to no love in D&D, stop the hate and accept humans into the getting cool features club.
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    Oh wadda you know Gary, you're just a baby.
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    Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.
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    It's all fun and games until you encounter the roc weremegalodon

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Dragonwrought Kobolds have humanoid age categories and dragon age categories
    There are no "humanoid age categories"!

    Only dragons have "Age Categories"

    Anything else has "Age Effects"!

    Age Categories != Age Effects

    sry, but imho in 3.5 there is a clear distinction between those.

    _________________

    @topic:

    you missed the part where the DM is enforced to make up LA+ advancement for any True Dragon who doesn't have any LA+ so far for the age categories. This may be LA+0 is your DM is nice (which should assume that you are "nice" too ;) or something else the DM sees more fit for a "true dragon" DWK.

    So keep in mind to be nice to your DM ;)


    _______________
    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Gary View Post
    Why do Kobolds get all the love?
    I guess because of Deekin Scalesinger
    and Tuckers Kobolds
    imho it's like their secret mascot or something^^
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2017-12-25 at 03:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    oh goody,

    it's been at least a month since we had the "true dragons/not true dragons" DWK argument that usually lasts 20 pages and changes exactly zero opinions on the matter....
    IC/VC/JYW attempts

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    More sources, more choices, more power. Welcome to D&D.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Yay, another one. Anyway, to correct an incorrect statement, it is not enough to have age categories. The creature must advance through them.

    And since Draconomicon is referenced, there is a nice section under dragons as PCs that explains exactly how that works.
    Last edited by Deophaun; 2017-12-25 at 10:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    The true dragon discussion has been done in this very threat forum many times. And it has (always?) ended with a No as an answer.

    Long story short, each creature that is a true dragon has in its monster manual entry " Dragon(True)". Kobolds dragonwrought or otherwise dont. The dragonomicon entry is correct up until its print date, and (ab)using it to make TO superbeasts is sad, And hence the "rulebook @face" thingy. The sage and "ask wizards" also disprooved the true dragon status of kobolds. ppl still cling onto the, books>sage, book>company/writer/support statements. cuz it suits em, that doesnt make it correct though.

    And yes i know about that dragon in Sandstorm(?) that is a dragon without having true by its name. 1 typo doesnt make it a rule counterargument :D
    Last edited by Raendyn; 2017-12-25 at 10:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    oh goody,

    it's been at least a month since we had the "true dragons/not true dragons" DWK argument that usually lasts 20 pages and changes exactly zero opinions on the matter....
    Yeah, I was afraid that the interest might have dropped in the community.. ^^

    But sometimes.. just sometimes, a new pieces of info (for me at least) appear in those threads. Not that it would change the outcome of the discussion, but new info is new info. But somehow I feel this one will not be one of the threads. Most people are busy with Christmas now..
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Inza View Post
    Unfortunate enough, "adult/old/venerable" arent age categories, so you'll need to ignore this line of rules for them to qualify as true dragons.
    As Nifft noticed kobold has both age effects and age categories, and when a kobold gets older, he progresses both ranks
    Last edited by ayvango; 2017-12-25 at 12:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrunkpotato5 View Post
    Is there anything I missed? Fill me in on other things, preferably level one
    'Dragon type' and 11 charisma gets you the 'awaken frightful presence' feat, which seems rather potent for a 1HD (CR 1/8) npc. For best results, multiply by an entire tribe, with a successive small groups of kobolds jump-scaring adventurers into traps.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Yay, the Dumbest Argument rises again! It's a holiday miracle!

    Ok, so here's the deal: kobolds have the relevant 12 age categories, as per RotD, but they don't advance through age categories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold
    Advancement: By character class

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    There are no "humanoid age categories"!

    Only dragons have "Age Categories"

    Anything else has "Age Effects"!

    Age Categories != Age Effects

    sry, but imho in 3.5 there is a clear distinction between those.
    This sounds like better terminology than I'd been using.

    After a quick scan, I can't find anything which would contradict this -- is there anything that would explicitly support it?

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    Yay, the Dumbest Argument rises again! It's a holiday miracle!

    Ok, so here's the deal: kobolds have the relevant 12 age categories, as per RotD, but they don't advance through age categories.
    That only proves that "regular" Kobolds are disqualified.
    Note that a non DW-Kobold is already treated as Dragons for all effects related to race:
    Quote Originally Posted by Races of the Dragon P.39
    (Humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian): Kobolds are human-
    oids with the dragonblood and reptilian subtypes. For all
    effects related to race, a kobold is considered a dragon.

    But may I ask if you have a stat-block for for a DWK anywhere? I guess not. So you can't be sure of that (they are treated as regular Kobolds with their Advancement).

    Further Draconomicon adds for "Other True Dragons":
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconomicon P.144
    For true dragons other than those found in the Monster Manual, construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 322: Additional Level Adjustments.
    LA isn't a requirement to be a True Dragon, they get it for free if they don't have it.
    That's why I said, be nice to the DM if you want him to set the LA on all age categories for DWK to LA+0 which is an valid option.
    But he could also give you any other LA from any other dragon as he sees it fit, destroying any of the OP DWK builds and turning the DWK into a "Regular True Dragon" who just has wasted a feat to become what other True Dragons are just by choosing the right race and without wasting the feat..^^
    It's all up to the DM interpretation if he wants DWK cheese or not.
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2017-12-25 at 02:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    It's all up to the DM interpretation if he wants DWK cheese or not.
    In my games, this is an in-setting debate.

    Kobolds of course claim they are True Dragons.

    Non-kobold True Dragons tend to be on the other side.

    The universe sometimes permits Dragonwrought Kobolds to accrue the benefits of being a True Dragon, but not always. (The universe does so when the universe would tend to find it funny.)

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Dragon Magic page 87 is the most recently published source that weighs in on the matter, on page 87:
    "...a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon)."

    There is no clear RAW that says dragonwrought kobolds are not true dragons. They absolutely do meet (or do not clearly not meet) all the actual qualifications for a true dragon. It's ultimately up to a given DM on whether or not they do qualify.

    Instead of splitting hairs, I believe this thread was originally intended to discuss what's possible under the presumption that they do qualify as true dragons, not to nitpick about that qualification itself.


    The Web Enhancement includes natural attacks, slight build, and a few other benefits. I especially like Slight Build when DMing, as they can squeeze through very small tunnels (a 15-inch diameter hole) which PCs will have no chance of pursuing them into.

    A Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Warrior 1 with two flaws for Epic Toughness twice has 72 hp, AC 19 (chain shirt), SR 16, DR 5/Bludgeoning, a paralyzing gaze, gets three attacks per round each of which causes paralysis, and is only CR 1.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    The universe sometimes permits Dragonwrought Kobolds to accrue the benefits of being a True Dragon, but not always. (The universe does so when the universe would tend to find it funny.)
    Are there any non-xorvintaal DWK in the universe? I could not see any drawback in sacrificing non-existing innate spell-casting for a few bonuses.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Dragon Magic page 87 is the most recently published source
    Which means nothing, as date published is not a factor in source primacy.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    Are there any non-xorvintaal DWK in the universe? I could not see any drawback in sacrificing non-existing innate spell-casting for a few bonuses.
    Are there any Xorvintaal anything in my games?

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought kobold

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    Are there any non-xorvintaal DWK in the universe? I could not see any drawback in sacrificing non-existing innate spell-casting for a few bonuses.
    It's probably unusual for a kobold to commit to xorvintaal as a young adult, so I would expect fluffwise most wouldn't be. Especially if the universe is capricious about the status of DWKs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?

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