Vampire inconsistence

[Promethean]

Why is the vampire template a +8 La when the vampiric dragon template(which all the benefits of vampirism, a couple more powers and fewer weaknesses) is only LA +5. That just seems inconsistent to me.

[Hellpyre]

Presumably because it assume some LA from the dragon and some overlap on the abilities.

[Jormengand]

Because Wizards of the Coast don't understand how their own game works, which is also why a party of four vampires is apparently meant to be able to defeat a party of four identical vampires without even breaking a sweat.

[Promethean]

Presumably because it assume some LA from the dragon and some overlap on the abilities.

Huh. I always heard that the reason for the +8 on normal vamps was because of it's potential for exponential minionmancy(turn a guy/monster with more HD than you into a vampire, who you now control, and or them to turn something with more HD than them etc.). Personally still don't see how that warrents more LA than a lich, who's effectively an unkillable spellcaster as long as they just hide their phylactery well(which admittedly most don't, as the game has to give PC's some way to win. Therefore most liches have to receive the mandatory amount of brain damage needed to think wearing/having their familiar wear/putting their phylactery in a well known dungeon is a good idea.)

Honestly the entire La system rubs me the wrong way. It'd make more sense to have the character count as a specific higher level until they reach that level(like for the vampire with LA +8 at level 5, have them earn xp as a 13th level character until level 13. Note: this is just off the math of when a person can become a vampire + LA, I'm pretty sure a vampires special abilities stop mattering before then)

[Vhaidara]

Because Wizards of the Coast don't understand how their own game works, which is also why a party of four vampires is apparently meant to be able to defeat a party of four identical vampires without even breaking a sweat.

I think you have that backwards, since a party of 4 vamps (the PCs) have to deal with +8 LA, while the opposing party of vampires (the NPCs) only have +2 CR. So a level 9 party would be 4 level 1 vampires, up against a CR9 party of 4 level 7 vampires.

For some reason my brain assumed that the first party mentioned had to be the PCs.

[Jormengand]

I think you have that backwards, since a party of 4 vamps (the PCs) have to deal with +8 LA, while the opposing party of vampires (the NPCs) only have +2 CR. So a level 9 party would be 4 level 1 vampires, up against a CR9 party of 4 level 7 vampires.

For some reason my brain assumed that the first party mentioned had to be the PCs.

The first party is the PCs. They are ECL 9 at first level, squaring off against 4 CR 3 creatures, an EL 7 encounter. This is two ELs below the ECL, and they "Should" be able to defeat them relatively trivially. Obviously, in reality, they can't.

[Remuko]

Why is the vampire template a +8 La when the vampiric dragon template(which all the benefits of vampirism, a couple more powers and fewer weaknesses) is only LA +5. That just seems inconsistent to me.

Its because adding a ton of power onto a race like human and adding that same power onto a true dragon doesnt result in the same level of power increase.

Think of it like this. Human is a 1, Dragon is a 10, Vampire is a +8. Adding that to the human makes its new "power" (just the sum of the numbers in this example) 9 times its original power. A dragon becomes and 18 which is less than double power. 800% stronger vs 80% stronger. Another reason is that the templates arent the same. The Dragon Vampire template doesnt function identically to the vampire template, so its not just slapping the normal vamp template on a dragon (tho ironically iirc the dragon version is actually better because it doesnt suffer from as many weaknesses nor as badly). But yeah its mostly that first bit.

[KillianHawkeye]

The first party is the PCs. They are ECL 9 at first level, squaring off against 4 CR 3 creatures, an EL 7 encounter. This is two ELs below the ECL, and they "Should" be able to defeat them relatively trivially. Obviously, in reality, they can't.

First of all, you can't be a vampire at 1st level because a vampire's create spawn ability will turn anyone with less than 5 HD into a vampire spawn rather than a full vampire.

Second, the LA is different for vampiric dragons because the designers considered a high number of racial Hit Dice to be a balancing factor against Level Adjustment. Since you presumably have to be a dragon to gain the vampiric dragon template, it's not as much of a relative addition in power as what a normal player race gets from becoming a vampire (in theory).

[Jormengand]

First of all, you can't be a vampire at 1st level because a vampire's create spawn ability will turn anyone with less than 5 HD into a vampire spawn rather than a full vampire.

False, (""Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature)." "Create Spawn (Su): As base vampire, but vampire lords create only vampire slaves, never vampire spawn. The new vampire is enslaved to the vampire lord until its master's death, and the willpower of the vampire lord is too strong to allow it to break free of its enslavement.") but the point works just the same if you...

"The first party is the PCs. They are ECL 13 at fifth level, squaring off against 4 CR 7 creatures, an EL 11 encounter. This is two ELs below the ECL, and they "Should" be able to defeat them relatively trivially. Obviously, in reality, they can't."

[Florian]

Because Wizards of the Coast don't understand how their own game works

Hm? WotC was always very clear that monsters follow different design rules than PC and LA is a way to mitigate those differences.

[Zanos]

Hm? WotC was always very clear that monsters follow different design rules than PC and LA is a way to mitigate those differences.

Agreed. Dominated minions and spawn dont affect APL but do affect CR, and vampire gives access to those. Also, immunity to permanent conditions like energy drain, ability drain, disease, death, etc are more valuable to a PC then they are to monsters, which are usually only fought once.

8/2 is a pretty ridiculous split, though. And weaknesses make vampire PCs basically unplayable without splat diving for mitigating items and spells.

[Promethean]

False, (""Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature)." "Create Spawn (Su): As base vampire, but vampire lords create only vampire slaves, never vampire spawn. The new vampire is enslaved to the vampire lord until its master's death, and the willpower of the vampire lord is too strong to allow it to break free of its enslavement.") but the point works just the same if you...

"The first party is the PCs. They are ECL 13 at fifth level, squaring off against 4 CR 7 creatures, an EL 11 encounter. This is two ELs below the ECL, and they "Should" be able to defeat them relatively trivially. Obviously, in reality, they can't."

Eh, I honestly think the vamp template is only worth +4 La if your not trying to break the minionmancy(fore which the are already other ways to do so via necromancy or the leadership feat chain). The amount of weaknesses saddled onto the player, on top of the fact that they have a master vampire they're under the command of, balance out the powers it grants. When you compare it too the other Common evil mage template: Lich, who gains no more weaknesses than those gained by being undead, has infinite extra lives, and a host of extra DR and immunities, I just can't see vampire being so much more powerful that they warrent the higher LA.

[ShurikVch]

Why is the vampire template a +8 La when the vampiric dragon template(which all the benefits of vampirism, a couple more powers and fewer weaknesses) is only LA +5. That just seems inconsistent to me.

Wait, aren't normal Vampires are +5 too?
I mean - example Vampire in the Monster Manual have LA +5
I always thought +8 is for Elite Vampires (whatever it may be)

On slightly more serious note, it isn't the only inconsistency with Vampire template: in the Libris Mortis, Swarm-Shifter template is "LA: -"; but Swarmform Vampire is playable, and don't even slapped with some extra LA. How's it different?

Personally still don't see how that warrents more LA than a lich, who's effectively an unkillable spellcaster as long as they just hide their phylactery well(which admittedly most don't, as the game has to give PC's some way to win. Therefore most liches have to receive the mandatory amount of brain damage needed to think wearing/having their familiar wear/putting their phylactery in a well known dungeon is a good idea.)

The cost for creation of Lich Phylactery is whopping 120000 gp
Vampire is way more affordable - 6000 gp for Flesh of Orcus (or even 16000 gp for Greater Shrouds of the Unholy)
Also, Vampires are kinda unkillable too: you're kill 'em, but they aren't dead - they're gone back to the coffin. Actually, in the most of the cases, to be destroyed, Vampire need the same amount of brain damage as aforementioned Lich (to don't hide the coffin in some place completely inaccessible for any living creatures)

Its because adding a ton of power onto a race like human and adding that same power onto a true dragon doesnt result in the same level of power increase.

Except it doesn't say "True Dragon":

"Vampiric" is a template that can be added to any dragon of at least adult age (referred to hereafter as the base dragon).

Thus:
Draconians with 2 HD and LA +1 are legal
White Dragonspawn is legal
Dragonwrought Kobold is legal

First of all, you can't be a vampire at 1st level because a vampire's create spawn ability will turn anyone with less than 5 HD into a vampire spawn rather than a full vampire.

Besides the already mentioned Vampire Lord's Create Spawn SA, - Flesh of Orcus (Ghostwalk) and Shrouds of the Unholy aren't restricted to 5+ HD too

[Crake]

I believe I remember LA being explained somewhere, that monster abilities in the context of an encounter, vs the context of an adventurer make a very big difference. If a demon, for example, teleports away from the party to save it's life, it still "loses" the encounter, granting the party xp, so in the context of a monster encounter, the ability to teleport has little impact on the demon's capability (obviously it can do other things too, like teleport to a better tactical position etc), but generally speaking, abilities like that are more valuable to a player over the course of a campaign than they are to a monster over the course of an encounter. Just consider for a moment, if you will, a dungeon delving vampire. If you walk into a dungeon and "die", you can just float out and start again tomorrow, with little to no expectation of recourse. In that sense, you're practically invincible, because you're never REALLY going to die.