Optimizing touch attacks?

[SangoProduction]

So, I just went ahead and read a bit from Ghostwalk. And my god, Agony Touch looks so strong. Easy to hit, because touch attack, and does ability damage. Also, it doesn't say it must be done as a standard action, which means it's just another attack option.

So, is there a way to really make this absurd?

I'll assume that unarmed attacks (and touch attacks) can be dual wielded. Whirling Frenzy Barbarian has +1 attack, and one of the barbarian ACFs grant pounce. Monk has the flurry of blows, but I don't know if touch attacks count. It might be prudent to get Weapon Finesse (touch attack) so that you always use Dex. Haste grants an extra attack on full attack.

This will probably be pointless against hordes of enemies, because of the limited uses, but if you are facing them, you'd still have a bunch of attacks.

[Crake]

So, I just went ahead and read a bit from Ghostwalk. And my god, Agony Touch looks so strong. Easy to hit, because touch attack, and does ability damage. Also, it doesn't say it must be done as a standard action, which means it's just another attack option.

So, is there a way to really make this absurd?

I'll assume that unarmed attacks (and touch attacks) can be dual wielded. Whirling Frenzy Barbarian has +1 attack, and one of the barbarian ACFs grant pounce. Monk has the flurry of blows, but I don't know if touch attacks count. It might be prudent to get Weapon Finesse (touch attack) so that you always use Dex. Haste grants an extra attack on full attack.

This will probably be pointless against hordes of enemies, because of the limited uses, but if you are facing them, you'd still have a bunch of attacks.

Since feats are, unless otherwise noticed, Ex abilities, using one is in fact a standard action unless otherwise noted, so no, you don't get iterative attacks on a ghost's corrupting touch. You can't even call it a natural attack, because the feat doesn't call it out as such, it simply says you can use a touch attack, and without stating an action of any kind, it defaults to a standard action, sorry.

[SangoProduction]

Since feats are, unless otherwise noticed, Ex abilities, using one is in fact a standard action unless otherwise noted, so no, you don't get iterative attacks on a ghost's corrupting touch. You can't even call it a natural attack, because the feat doesn't call it out as such, it simply says you can use a touch attack, and without stating an action of any kind, it defaults to a standard action, sorry.

Oh, where's it say that?

[Darrin]

Since feats are, unless otherwise noticed, Ex abilities, using one is in fact a standard action unless otherwise noted, so no, you don't get iterative attacks on a ghost's corrupting touch.

Are you sure you aren't confusing this with Su or SLA? The MM is kinda explicit on Ex abilities. Monster Manual p. 315:

"Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted."

You can't even call it a natural attack, because the feat doesn't call it out as such, it simply says you can use a touch attack, and without stating an action of any kind, it defaults to a standard action, sorry.

The rules for "Holding the Charge" allow you to use unarmed attacks to deliver touch spells. Regardless of how we classify a feat that can only be used by creatures that are explicitly supernatural, there's no clear indication in the rules that this option is available for touch attacks that are not spell effects. However, given that the wording of the feat mentions only a singular touch attack with a daily limit of uses, I'm inclined to consider the touch attack here was intended to be a standard action.

[Crake]

Oh, where's it say that?

While never explicitly called out in the PHB, BoED says that exalted feats are Su abilities unlike normal feats, which are Ex abilities.

Are you sure you aren't confusing this with Su or SLA? The MM is kinda explicit on Ex abilities. Monster Manual p. 315:

"Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted."

Huh, I suppose I was.

[Jormengand]

Due to the rule compendium's wording on weaponlike spells with multiple attacks, chill touch allows one touch per level as a standard action, meaning that you can add all your touch feats as a rider to all of those. It's also fun for sneak attacks.

[Darrin]

While never explicitly called out in the PHB, BoED says that exalted feats are Su abilities unlike normal feats, which are Ex abilities.

Ok. But no one was talking about [Exalted] feats, so I don't quite see how it's relevant here.

I believe the sentence we're looking for is immediately *before* Agony Touch. Ghostwalk p. 28:

"Unless otherwise stated, ghost feats are supernatural abilities."

So that settles it as far as RAW is concerned. Agony Touch is (Su), and thus a standard action by default.

Due to the rule compendium's wording on weaponlike spells with multiple attacks, chill touch allows one touch per level as a standard action, meaning that you can add all your touch feats as a rider to all of those. It's also fun for sneak attacks.

Hmm. There might be some wiggle room in there... if you cast chill touch and use Holding the Charge, then "you can make a normal unarmed attack or an attack with a natural weapon" to deliver your touch attacks. If you can stack feat effects on top of that touch attack, then maybe that's the best way to deliver Agony Touch.

However, the language they use is singular, as it only mentions a single attack. I'm not seeing any text that supports the idea that you can use "Holding the Charge" with multiple unarmed attacks or a full attack. I think we're still pretty firmly in "DM's Call" territory.

Which, I suppose, leaves us with Duskblade 13 + Agony Touch. I'm not really sure if the text under Weaponlike Spells really applies to Agony Touch. The text says:

"You can use some combat-enhancing feats to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells."

It then specifies which eligible feats can be used: Improved Critical, Improved Unarmed Strike, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus. Agony Touch is not on that list. Devil's advocate might say there's no indication that this is an explicitly exclusive list, and other "combat-enhancing feats" outside the PHB should be included where appropriate, but that's leaning back over into "DM's Call" territory, I think.

Basically, to get more than one Agony Touch in a round, it looks like you have to do two things:

1) Add Agony Touch to the list of "combat-enhancing feats" allowed by the Weaponlike Spell rules, allowing it to "piggyback" as a rider effect on a touch attack from a weaponlike spell.

2) Expand the rules on "Holding the Charge" to allow multiple unarmed attacks to discharge multiple touch spells during a full attack.

[Crake]

Ok. But no one was talking about [Exalted] feats, so I don't quite see how it's relevant here.

It was relevant, because the rules text calling out exalted feats as Su also indirectly called out all other feats as Ex unless noted otherwise, but...

I believe the sentence we're looking for is immediately *before* Agony Touch. Ghostwalk p. 28:

"Unless otherwise stated, ghost feats are supernatural abilities."

So that settles it as far as RAW is concerned. Agony Touch is (Su), and thus a standard action by default.

This does indeed make it irrelevant.

[Darrin]

It was relevant, because the rules text calling out exalted feats as Su also indirectly called out all other feats as Ex unless noted otherwise, but...

My apologies. You are correct, it was relevant to non-Exalted feats. Given how many sourcebooks include feats, I'm a little puzzled that feats defaulting to (Ex) isn't mentioned anywhere else.

[Psyren]

"Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted."

Not to further confuse matters, but this passage is contradicted by PHB 142:

"Extraordinary Abilities: Using an extraordinary ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge ability) is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity."

[Darrin]

Not to further confuse matters, but this passage is contradicted by PHB 142:

"Extraordinary Abilities: Using an extraordinary ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge ability) is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity."

PHB errata covers this:

"The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities."

So the MM trumps the PHB as far as (Ex) abilities are concerned. Well, for monsters, at least.

[Psyren]

PHB errata covers this:

"The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities."

So the MM trumps the PHB as far as (Ex) abilities are concerned. Well, for monsters, at least.

"For monsters" is the operative phrase there. Since we're (or at least the OP is) talking about a PC's abilities in this context, it is not quite as clear.

[SangoProduction]

So it's a supernatural effect. Let's work with that. It thus, by default, takes a standard action to use. You could probably stack touch spell charges on to this touch attack, but not the other way around, as you don't prepare charges of this feat, but if you touch them with the feat, you ought to still discharge whatever charges you may have.

Isn't there a class out there that let you do supernatural effects as a swift action? I thought it was lorekeeper, but apparently I'm mistaken.

"For monsters" is the operative phrase there. Since we're (or at least the OP is) talking about a PC's abilities in this context, it is not quite as clear.

Gotta love syntactic ambiguity.

[Remuko]

"For monsters" is the operative phrase there. Since we're (or at least the OP is) talking about a PC's abilities in this context, it is not quite as clear.

I see what you mean

PHB errata covers this:

"The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities."

So the MM trumps the PHB as far as (Ex) abilities are concerned. Well, for monsters, at least.

That could be read two ways:

MM = source for; Monster Descriptions, Templates, and Supernatural, Extraordinary, and spell-like abilities

or

MM = source for monster; descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities

The former implies as a more general statement, the latter implies its only a source for those things in regards to monsters.

[Boggartbae]

Omg. There’s a magic weapon ability in Libris Mortis called Necrotic that lets you apply energy and ability drain through your weapon. RAW it can’t apply damage, but talk to your dm because that doesn’t make a lot of sense, and libris mortis is poorly edited. You can dual wield/flurrry if you use this ability.

Second, there’s a feat in the same book called empowered ability damage, which increases the ability damage you deal by 50%. There’s also a feat that gives you a permanent ghost touch ability, so you don’t get messed up by being incorporeal.

Finally, I’m confused as to why the agony touch feat is necessary, since ghosts automatically drain ability scores with their touh attacks as an at will ability. Does ghostwalk have special rules for ghosts?

[Psyren]

Finally, I’m confused as to why the agony touch feat is necessary, since ghosts automatically drain ability scores with their touh attacks as an at will ability. Does ghostwalk have special rules for ghosts?

Lots - they are practically different creatures. I would have probably called them something entirely different, like eidolons or spirits or something.

[Boggartbae]

Lots - they are practically different creatures. I would have probably called them something entirely different, like eidolons or spirits or something.

Hrm. Well if Ghostwalk makes a bunch of new rules, then I suggest you do the same with certain undead abilities.

A normal ghost can make a natural touch attack once per round as a standard action, but if they wielded a necrotic weapon, then the ghost could use it as many times as they could use the weapon, so I see no reason not to allow a Ghostwalk ghost the same privilege, considering that they also need to take a feat.

Reading Agony Touch, it doesn’t work with a Necrotic Weapon by RAW, but I would allow it, since the only reason it doesn’t work is because Ghostwalk changes the ghost rules.

[Crake]

I see what you mean



That could be read two ways:

MM = source for; Monster Descriptions, Templates, and Supernatural, Extraordinary, and spell-like abilities

or

MM = source for monster; descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities

The former implies as a more general statement, the latter implies its only a source for those things in regards to monsters.

Actually if you look at the grammar, the position of the "and" before supernatural you can see it's separating it as such:
Monster Descriptions and templates
and
Supernatural, extraordinary, and spell like abilities.

Besides, there's no delineation between a "monster Su" ability and a "Player Su" ability, because every class based Su ability is potentially obtainable by a monster via class level advancement, and a good portion of monsters are usable as PC races via level adjustment. Thus we can also use this line of deductive reasoning to conclude the above.

[Jormengand]

Actually if you look at the grammar, the position of the "and" before supernatural you can see it's separating it as such:
Monster Descriptions and templates
and
Supernatural, extraordinary, and spell like abilities.

Besides, there's no delineation between a "monster Su" ability and a "Player Su" ability, because every class based Su ability is potentially obtainable by a monster via class level advancement, and a good portion of monsters are usable as PC races via level adjustment. Thus we can also use this line of deductive reasoning to conclude the above.

Well, not necessarily. It could be monster [descriptions, templates and abilities] with the additional stipulation that those abilities are supernatural, extraordinary and spell-like.

[Boggartbae]

Actually I think that the feat is just giving you a natural weapon (and is therefor useable with necrotic), and as such is subject to the rules for natural weapons, including the once per turn limitation.

I've read through ghost walk a little bit, and I don't think that the feat has any specific action attached to it, but is instead just an option for the "Ghosts" from that book to regain the touch attack that ghosts from the MM have.

Since incorporeal touch is a type of natural attack, and a lot of abilities that grant natural attacks don't actually use the words "natural attack", but instead just state the type of attack gained, such as claw or bite. I'd say that this is one way to read the ability by RAW, and is actually the RAI use of the feat.

EDIT: also, this would explain the "Only one kind of damage or effect from the path of the corrupter applies from each attack" wording, since if they were each separate abilities that just took a standard action to use, it wouldn't be necessary.

EDIT 2: And all of the other special attack granting feats in the book state what kind of action it is to use them, such as all of the [haunt] feats clearly stating standard action. Why would they leave that out of [corrupter] feats, unless they intended them to be used as natural attacks?

[SangoProduction]

OK. Since there seems to be no traction on the supernatural side, and Bog makes a decent argument, let's assume it's actually a natural attack (if one intended for ghosts despite not needed it as a prereq). In which case, (improved) Rapidstrike would probably work to give iteratives to your natural weapon....if you can get them to somehow count as a pair.

A very lenient reading would be that they count as [corruptor] attacks, so more feats that grant touch attacks will give you "pairs". But...that's probably so lenient you may as well ask for an infinite wish loop. After all, if they did each count as natural weapons, then you'd get to do each feat once per turn on full attack, which definitely doesn't seem to be the intent. And if you can't hit with two feats in one turn, then they probably aren't a pair of natural attacks.

So, that's probably a dead end. But, if it is a natural attack, then every trick for getting more attacks out of a normal natural attack ought to still work, such as Haste, and Whirling Berserker.

And as a natural attack, I believe there's a path from Book of 9 Swords for that.

[Boggartbae]

OK. Since there seems to be no traction on the supernatural side, and Bog makes a decent argument, let's assume it's actually a natural attack (if one intended for ghosts despite not needed it as a prereq). In which case, (improved) Rapidstrike would probably work to give iteratives to your natural weapon....if you can get them to somehow count as a pair.

A very lenient reading would be that they count as [corruptor] attacks, so more feats that grant touch attacks will give you "pairs". But...that's probably so lenient you may as well ask for an infinite wish loop. After all, if they did each count as natural weapons, then you'd get to do each feat once per turn on full attack, which definitely doesn't seem to be the intent. And if you can't hit with two feats in one turn, then they probably aren't a pair of natural attacks.

So, that's probably a dead end. But, if it is a natural attack, then every trick for getting more attacks out of a normal natural attack ought to still work, such as Haste, and Whirling Berserker.

And as a natural attack, I believe there's a path from Book of 9 Swords for that.

Yeah I see the feats as just granting one attack that you can apply different effects to depending on your mood. Like imagine a beckoning apparition with one outstretched hand or something like that.

I wouldn't go too far down the multiple attack road, since it's limited uses per day. I would say that getting the feats Touch Attack Specialisation and Empowered Ability damage are pretty important for making the attacks hurt (1d4+2, increase total by 50% is a scary amount of con damage), and the feat Shrivelling Touch from Ghostwalk gives you effectively more uses of the ability, but they deal drain instead!

I'm sorry I keep saying this, but since we're going with the natural weapon interpretation (and even if we weren't house ruling it to work would make a lot of sense) the easiest way to get multiple attacks is the weapon ability "Necrotic Focus". It's a +3 ability that lets the wielder apply it's ability damage/drain through the weapon, "as if attacking with it's natural weapons.", so it's a pretty easy way to get iterative attacks that all deal ability damage. Combine with Ghost touch so you avoid the miss chance for hitting corporeal foes.

The last thing to consider is whether to deal CON damage or DEX damage. CON would synergise with the HP damage the rest of the party is dealing, but a dragon taking multiple hits to DEX in one turn is going to die really fast.

[SangoProduction]

Yeah I see the feats as just granting one attack that you can apply different effects to depending on your mood. Like imagine a beckoning apparition with one outstretched hand or something like that.

I wouldn't go too far down the multiple attack road, since it's limited uses per day. I would say that getting the feats Touch Attack Specialisation and Empowered Ability damage are pretty important for making the attacks hurt (1d4+2, increase total by 50% is a scary amount of con damage), and the feat Shrivelling Touch from Ghostwalk gives you effectively more uses of the ability, but they deal drain instead!

I'm sorry I keep saying this, but since we're going with the natural weapon interpretation (and even if we weren't house ruling it to work would make a lot of sense) the easiest way to get multiple attacks is the weapon ability "Necrotic Focus". It's a +3 ability that lets the wielder apply it's ability damage/drain through the weapon, "as if attacking with it's natural weapons.", so it's a pretty easy way to get iterative attacks that all deal ability damage. Combine with Ghost touch so you avoid the miss chance for hitting corporeal foes.

The last thing to consider is whether to deal CON damage or DEX damage. CON would synergise with the HP damage the rest of the party is dealing, but a dragon taking multiple hits to DEX in one turn is going to die really fast.

I feel that the concern for the quantity is overrated, as you do get 2 per level. So, while a level 1 whirling barbarian might spend all charges in one full attack Strike that. They get it once per level, which is substantially more limited. But, the point remains that it only remains a problem in the lowest levels (even if it's not trivialized so quickly). And...I don't know of any choices you could make that would be asking for one or the other, when you can both get quick attacks, and make the attacks better. Obviously, if you were forced to choose one or the other, quality would probably win out, but still.

Even so, you can take the feat multiple times (or advance to drain), admittedly, having to choose another attribute to damage, but still. And lastly, I just got a chance to actually read Ghostwalk. Under the Eidolon (ghost) class, it does state that this is an option available, even to the living, which the potential RAI problems.

[Baby Gary]

I personally would go with enerverating touch and/or nauseating touch. Neither of them have anything about uses per day.

[Remuko]

Actually if you look at the grammar, the position of the "and" before supernatural you can see it's separating it as such:
Monster Descriptions and templates
and
Supernatural, extraordinary, and spell like abilities.

Besides, there's no delineation between a "monster Su" ability and a "Player Su" ability, because every class based Su ability is potentially obtainable by a monster via class level advancement, and a good portion of monsters are usable as PC races via level adjustment. Thus we can also use this line of deductive reasoning to conclude the above.

I agree with that as well, but I was saying I can see how others could think its the other way around.

[SangoProduction]

I personally would go with enerverating touch and/or nauseating touch. Neither of them have anything about uses per day.

Oh. I didn't notice that. Good debuffs too.

[Boggartbae]

I personally would go with enerverating touch and/or nauseating touch. Neither of them have anything about uses per day.

Enervating Touch also qualifies you for the Life Drain and Improved Energy Drain feats, which are both really strong.

Then, if you include Pathfinder material, you could dual-wield a small sized Life-drinker that's been upgraded with Necrotic Focus (3 negative levels on hit) with an Energy Drain Shield with the Necrotic Focus ability on it's spikes (1d4+1 negative levels on hit)

Agile Shield fighter might be better than 2 weapon fighting, and this isn't really about touch attacks anymore, but it's certainly the most potent Sword'n'Board build in the game.

[SangoProduction]

Improved Energy Drain seems to be kinda meh, unless it stacks with itself (which I doubt, and would be insane if it did). If it were constantly active, yeah, that would probably be quite worth it for a feat, if your character were exceptionally eclectic.

Anyway. Enervating Touch can be pretty potent, and has no maximum uses per level. So...making the race Dvati seems like a good idea to just straight up x2 attacks for that. (Then again, I think I'm simply obsessed with Dvati as a race, so meh.)

That would put our stat dependencies to Str (to hit, probably tertiary because touch attack), Con (to not die, being in melee, with half HD hp), and Cha (bonus as damage per negative level, not to mention bonus hp, which is also quite valuable).

So, the primary stat, before getting to classes, is going to be Con, followed by Cha then Str.

Even so, I believe that Whirling Barbarian is going to be even better, because it's now +2 attacks per round, rather than just +1, which was already pretty good. Pounce would be a very strong pick up as well. A level 1 Dvati could drain 8 levels in 2 rounds.

Dipping Martial for a level or 2 could be quite potent. Bonuses to initiative, when your first round probably going to launch massive debuffs on the enemy is great. And it applies to your allies too, so you aren't entirely selfish!

Dreadful Wrath is a fear effect in a 20 ft radius, which ought to help with the counter attack. It won't get much extra use from being a Dvati, as they are immune after 1 use, but is still great, when