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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    It's also worth remembering where this thread started. It was with a claim that the term "collaborative storytelling" was literally meaningless; even if only the narrow/strong definition holds that's still not true.
    No, it's still true. Even now, the weak/broad definition is still meaningless and does not usefully describe the way I play RPGs.

  2. - Top - End - #782
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    No, it's still true. Even now, the weak/broad definition is still meaningless and does not usefully describe the way I play RPGs.
    To be fair some people find it useful as one part of a descriptive toolbox, and I'm fine with that as long as they don't insist on pushing it onto people who'd rather not use it, and can live and let live.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    To be fair some people find it useful as one part of a descriptive toolbox, and I'm fine with that as long as they don't insist on pushing it onto people who'd rather not use it, and can live and let live.
    Oh. Yes. It has plenty of meaning for people who want to use it to describe how they play RPGs.

    Heck, it can even can have meaning to them for mentally categorizing in their own head how they see me playing RPGs. That's all fine and dandy too.

    It's just not useful nor meaningful way for someone else to tell me that's what I'm doing when I play RPGs.

    So okay. I'm wrong. The phrase "collaborative storytelling" can haz meaning. Depending on what purpose they are putting it to.

    I'm assuming here we're not discussing the phrase "RPGs are about collaborative storytelling", because that is still a universal statement. Unless qualified, it doesn't stand, because it automatically includes telling me that's my purpose when I play RPGs.

  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Oh. Yes. It has plenty of meaning for people who want to use it to describe how they play RPGs.

    Heck, it can even can have meaning to them for mentally categorizing in their own head how they see me playing RPGs. That's all fine and dandy too.

    It's just not useful nor meaningful way for someone else to tell me that's what I'm doing when I play RPGs.

    So okay. I'm wrong. The phrase "collaborative storytelling" can haz meaning. Depending on what purpose they are putting it to.

    I'm assuming here we're not discussing the phrase "RPGs are about collaborative storytelling", because that is still a universal statement. Unless qualified, it doesn't stand, because it automatically includes telling me that's my purpose when I play RPGs.
    Nope, not defending the "about" statement as a universal claim, that's still just plain wrong.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I'm assuming here we're not discussing the phrase "RPGs are about collaborative storytelling", because that is still a universal statement. Unless qualified, it doesn't stand, because it automatically includes telling me that's my purpose when I play RPGs.
    There's a reason basically everyone has been avoiding the term "about".

  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    There's a reason basically everyone has been avoiding the term "about".
    I'll have to go check, but I think that's the statement that prompted me to post this thread. Or possibly it was an over-reaction to seeing it so often

    Because, yknow, overreacting is totally out of character for me. 😂
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2018-01-30 at 09:23 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #787
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    My life, when viewed in retrospect and written down on paper, is a story.

    Does that mean everyone I met in my life have been involved in collaborative storytelling?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
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  8. - Top - End - #788
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    My life, when viewed in retrospect and written down on paper, is a story.

    Does that mean everyone I met in my life have been involved in collaborative storytelling?
    Isn't life just an RPG that most of us don't powergame?

  9. - Top - End - #789
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Isn't life just an RPG that most of us don't powergame?
    With extremely randomized character creation system. And without level-appropriate challenges. Not to mention we don't know all the rules. Basically, it sucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Blue text for sarcasm is an important writing tool. Everybody should use it when they are saying something clearly false.

  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    My life, when viewed in retrospect and written down on paper, is a story.

    Does that mean everyone I met in my life have been involved in collaborative storytelling?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Isn't life just an RPG that most of us don't powergame?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    With extremely randomized character creation system. And without level-appropriate challenges. Not to mention we don't know all the rules. Basically, it sucks.

    Worst.

    GM.

    Ever.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  11. - Top - End - #791
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Brainstorming something over in the World Building subforum, it occurred to me that part of the problem here really might come down to people simply not thinking the same way (and despite what some branches of psych, the pop-science media, and the self-help industry will tell you, human minds do not all "work" in exactly the same way).

    It's possible that how much individual people actually "think in stories" is quite variable, and that the disconnects and talking past each other here originate in part from two people coming from fundamentally different places in how they think.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  12. - Top - End - #792
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Brainstorming something over in the World Building subforum, it occurred to me that part of the problem here really might come down to people simply not thinking the same way (and despite what some branches of psych, the pop-science media, and the self-help industry will tell you, human minds do not all "work" in exactly the same way).

    It's possible that how much individual people actually "think in stories" is quite variable, and that the disconnects and talking past each other here originate in part from two people coming from fundamentally different places in how they think.
    Well I can see how that makes sense, I'm high-functioning autistic so I know all about how people don't really think all the same! Neurodiversity is something that deserves more awareness. so I guess I can see where your coming from. Some people have told me I'm perfectionistic even though I hate perfection and think trying to reach it is ridiculous, I mostly do things to improve myself because its better to improve, not to reach an impossible ideal, and I guess thats like roleplaying without actually having the goal of telling a story?
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  13. - Top - End - #793
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Brainstorming something over in the World Building subforum, it occurred to me that part of the problem here really might come down to people simply not thinking the same way (and despite what some branches of psych, the pop-science media, and the self-help industry will tell you, human minds do not all "work" in exactly the same way).

    It's possible that how much individual people actually "think in stories" is quite variable, and that the disconnects and talking past each other here originate in part from two people coming from fundamentally different places in how they think.
    I think that describes about half of the discussions in this forum. And quite obviously people will think differently. Still, one should not fall into the other trap and think that humans can never understand each other.

    I tend to see the human minds as having a large set of axes, where we might share the same type of axes but have different degrees of them. So we can be radically different to one another, but a truly alien mind would have a completely different set of axes altogether. The "mind space" would be different, so to speak. Which is why it is so hard for science fiction writers to imagine "real" aliens, despite the fact that they can imagine different types of humans.

    Anyway, that is completely off topic.

    What has been the conclusion in this extraordinarily long thread? I tried to follow it a bit but I got completely lost (not enough time) at some point.

    To me, collaborative storytelling is not a meaningless phrase at all. It hardly describes all role playing gaming that takes place, but it certainly describes some of it.

    I guess you could make a case for that all RPGs are accidental collaborative storybuilding (which is not the same as telling), but that would describe all human life as well and indeed becomes rather meaningless.
    Last edited by Lorsa; 2018-02-01 at 03:53 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #794
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    I think that describes about half of the discussions in this forum. And quite obviously people will think differently. Still, one should not fall into the other trap and think that humans can never understand each other.

    I tend to see the human minds as having a large set of axes, where we might share the same type of axes but have different degrees of them. So we can be radically different to one another, but a truly alien mind would have a completely different set of axes altogether. The "mind space" would be different, so to speak. Which is why it is so hard for science fiction writers to imagine "real" aliens, despite the fact that they can imagine different types of humans.

    Anyway, that is completely off topic.
    It's on topic in that I suspect some of the "all gamers are doing Strong CS even if they think they're not" crowd are failing to grasp that some other people do not think like they do, and either can't or won't imagine that someone else isn't "thinking in story" when they're playing their character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    What has been the conclusion in this extraordinarily long thread? I tried to follow it a bit but I got completely lost (not enough time) at some point.

    To me, collaborative storytelling is not a meaningless phrase at all. It hardly describes all role playing gaming that takes place, but it certainly describes some of it.

    I guess you could make a case for that all RPGs are accidental collaborative storybuilding (which is not the same as telling), but that would describe all human life as well and indeed becomes rather meaningless.

    That hits a lot of it.

    "Weak CS" applies to a lot of gaming simply by being broad, and has some utility as part of a toolkit for explaining what an RPG is to the unfamiliar person.

    "Strong CS" applies to the way some people game, but not the way others game.

    A few people are Strong CS zealots and will insist that all gamers actually are doing Strong CS even if they think they're not. As we've seen in this thread multiple times, part of their failure to comprehend and/or accept what others are and are not doing rests on conflating what you term "accidental storybuilding" with deliberate collaborative storytelling.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  15. - Top - End - #795
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It's on topic in that I suspect some of the "all gamers are doing Strong CS even if they think they're not" crowd are failing to grasp that some other people do not think like they do, and either can't or won't imagine that someone else isn't "thinking in story" when they're playing their character.
    You mean sort of like how some people think that "immersion" is a pointless goal as they find there is no way you can get around knowing that you sit around a table speaking whereas others find it is indeed a very worthwhile goal as they feel their imaginary space can be just as strong as whatever sensory input the real world is giving to them?



    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    That hits a lot of it.

    "Weak CS" applies to a lot of gaming simply by being broad, and has some utility as part of a toolkit for explaining what an RPG is to the unfamiliar person.

    "Strong CS" applies to the way some people game, but not the way others game.

    A few people are Strong CS zealots and will insist that all gamers actually are doing Strong CS even if they think they're not. As we've seen in this thread multiple times, part of their failure to comprehend and/or accept what others are and are not doing rests on conflating what you term "accidental storybuilding" with deliberate collaborative storytelling.
    Well, it's quite obvious in the term. "Storytelling" implies some sort of intent (the word 'telling' holding the implication). Your goal is to tell a story, with collaborating meaning together (unlike a railroaded adventure which can be storytelling but hardly collaborative).

    If that's not your goal, then obviously you are still, by accident, building a story. That goes without saying as all human activity is accidentally making a story. But you don't go around calling a football match "collaborative storytelling", as that is not its goal. A movie about a football match on the other hand, would be storytelling, most likely even collaborative.

    I really can't see what is so controversial about this issue.
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  16. - Top - End - #796
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    You mean sort of like how some people think that "immersion" is a pointless goal as they find there is no way you can get around knowing that you sit around a table speaking whereas others find it is indeed a very worthwhile goal as they feel their imaginary space can be just as strong as whatever sensory input the real world is giving to them?
    Some feel that immersion is not a worthwhile goal because they think to be true it has to be complete and total, such that the person would forget they're sitting at a table with other gamers gaming... it's all or nothing, so the absence of all means it must be nothing.

    Some want to denigrate immersion as a tactic in pushing a "distance from character" approach to gaming (plastic playing piece, or "third person narrative" stance), so they deliberately paint immersion either as impossible -- so why bother trying? -- or as equivalent to delusion.


    But from where I sit... I don't forget that I'm reading a book while I'm reading a book, I still know I'm sitting there reading. That doesn't mean that the quality of the book, and its ability to present people-who-could-be-real in a world-that-could-be-real, and it's ability to suck me in, aren't important. No one accuses people who get caught up in reading a book of being delusional. Why should playing a character in an RPG be any different?
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  17. - Top - End - #797
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Some want to denigrate immersion as a tactic in pushing a "distance from character" approach to gaming (plastic playing piece, or "third person narrative" stance), so they deliberately paint immersion either as impossible -- so why bother trying? -- or as equivalent to delusion.
    Third person narrative isn't necessarily less immersive though, as is demonstrated by novel after novel written in third person omniscient.

  18. - Top - End - #798
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Third person narrative isn't necessarily less immersive though, as is demonstrated by novel after novel written in third person omniscient.
    That's true.

    But then it's not my thought process... it's one apparent thought process of those who attack the idea of immersion because they evidently think it forwards their own view on what gaming should be.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  19. - Top - End - #799
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    But from where I sit... I don't forget that I'm reading a book while I'm reading a book, I still know I'm sitting there reading. That doesn't mean that the quality of the book, and its ability to present people-who-could-be-real in a world-that-could-be-real, and it's ability to suck me in, aren't important. No one accuses people who get caught up in reading a book of being delusional. Why should playing a character in an RPG be any different?
    I am pretty sure there have been moments when I've read books when I've forgotten I'm actually sitting there reading a book. People had to stand right next to me and yell my name in order to get my attention (say, I had been sitting there for 4 hours and it was now dinner time).

    There have been moments when I watched movies when I forgot that I was actually sitting in a chair watching a movie. In fact, I remember one time very clearly when a friend of mine was knocking on the window and it took me several seconds to figure out that was happening in the *real* world and not in the movie as I thought.

    RPGs however, when done right, have always had the strongest ability of making me forget the real world. When that happens, it is amazing. Unfortunately, RPGs are often performed by amateurs, so it can be harder to get it "right" (unlike books where you just have to find the right author and follow them).

    I mean sure, some people may argue that you never truly 100% believe you are part of the fictional world, but by god do the lines they blurry sometimes.

    In any case, as you say, immersion is a scale. You can have less or more where 50% is still better than 0%.
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Isn't it a pretty good definition of you need to explain what rpgs are to someone who doesn't know what they are and how they work, and don't want to give a lecture about it?

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Knight 2k View Post
    Isn't it a pretty good definition of you need to explain what rpgs are to someone who doesn't know what they are and how they work, and don't want to give a lecture about it?
    It's like Skyrim, but with friends and the GM is the Xbox.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Knight 2k View Post
    Isn't it a pretty good definition of you need to explain what rpgs are to someone who doesn't know what they are and how they work, and don't want to give a lecture about it?
    No it is not. It's not clear or accurate enough to avoid a lecture.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Cooperative storytelling is meaningless because it nothing about how resolution of given events is handled, nor acknowledges that stories don't exist while events occur. All it does is sound meaningful, without providing any actual meaning.

    (This one probably doesn't need a Fight Me! It's gonna happen anyway. )
    Your post is IMO spot on. I am thinking back to the challenges that some song writing teams have, and the successes. How many books have two authors? Some do (Nordoff and Hall, Weiss and Hickman) but most have one.
    (Whoops, I believe there may be some Necromancy going on here)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-04-29 at 10:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Metamagic Mod: thread uncollaboratively closed.
    Last edited by truemane; 2020-05-07 at 07:38 AM.
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