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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    And that little retelling is precisely what happens when the focus is on narrative instead of facts, on interpretation instead of reporting. In that paragraph, you've taken individual things that have happened, laid out a story from the series of events, and presented that story as truth (even through it is not, at the factual level, true).
    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    It's what happens when you don't try to pretend subtext doesn't exist.
    "Subtext"... a fancy word for the observer's own inferences.

    Meanwhile, and with all possible irony... there's real, non-inferred, actual contentious baggage, and non-RPG specific usage, and internal-to-RPGs motive and methodology distinctions, all attached to the term "collaborative storytelling", that some posters want to fastidiously ignore.

    And for added irony on this "subtext" nonsense, we've just had ~15 pages of people using the same exact arguments that were used by "the Edwardians" and a specific term that was used by "the Edwardians" to push their (the "Edwardians") specific agenda, an agenda that still has effects on the way games are designed and discussed... and you calling any concern that might have caused some of us here (paraphrasing) "conspiratorial nonsense")... which might be taken as completely belittling and deriding anything other than a very precise technical reading of the term in question here even given that well-established history...

    ...and now you're flipping around 180 degrees and claiming that the charming little narrative you just made up from bits and pieces of what was actually posted is (paraphrasing) "all there in the subtext".
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-11 at 04:57 PM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "Subtext"... a fancy word for the observer's own inferences.

    Meanwhile, and with all possible irony... there's real, non-inferred, actual contentious baggage, and non-RPG specific usage, and internal-to-RPGs motive and methodology distinctions, all attached to the term "collaborative storytelling", that some posters want to fastidiously ignore.

    And for added irony on this "subtext" nonsense, we've just had ~15 pages of people using the same exact arguments that were used by "the Edwardians" and a specific term that was used by "the Edwardians" to push their (the "Edwardians") specific agenda, an agenda that still has effects on the way games are designed and discussed... and you calling any concern that might have caused some of us here (paraphrasing) "conspiratorial nonsense")... which might be taken as completely belittling and deriding anything other than a very precise technical reading of the term in question here even given that well-established history...

    ...and now you're flipping around 180 degrees and claiming that the charming little narrative you just made up from bits and pieces of what was actually posted is (paraphrasing) "all there in the subtext".
    I could respond to this, but it honestly works better if I just quote it entirely to archive the conspiratorial myth making that is exactly what I referred to. It's a microcosm of everything I've criticized, and for that I thank you.

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    I could respond to this, but it honestly works better if I just quote it entirely to archive the conspiratorial myth making that is exactly what I referred to. It's a microcosm of everything I've criticized, and for that I thank you.
    OK, so it's "conspiratorial myth-making" when people are using the exact same arguments and the exact same terms, and we're trying to point that out as an issue...

    ...but it's "valid subtext" when you're making up things that people never actually posted?

    Hypocrisy and double-standards are fine now, I guess.


    Are you accusing kyoryu of wearing a tinfoil hat, too, or are you still conveniently ignoring his posts covering exactly the same issues?
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-11 at 05:32 PM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Are you accusing kyoryu of wearing a tinfoil hat, too, or are you still conveniently ignoring his posts covering exactly the same issues?
    I find that offensive!

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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    I find that offensive!

    Double-lined lead engraved with Dho-Na geometry curves are the least one can do to protect one's self.
    Good grief. Just cast mind blank like the rest of us.

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Are you accusing kyoryu of wearing a tinfoil hat, too, or are you still conveniently ignoring his posts covering exactly the same issues?
    I just went through and reread every one of his posts (unless Chrome's search function missed some). None of my criticisms apply to them, which is why I didn't include them in said criticisms. At most I'll say that the impression I've gotten assigns an out sized role to the Forge and similar a bit, but the claim that there is baggage for specific people who've engaged in specific arguments against the Forge being applied elsewhere is a totally different claim than "collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase", let alone the accusations of pushing agendas being thrown around left and right.

    As for ignoring his posts, there's only so much that can be responded to feasibly. I've chosen to focus my efforts on the most egregiously wrong points, and the people trying to assign agendas to me that I don't actually have. Kyoryu's done none of that.
    Last edited by Knaight; 2018-01-11 at 06:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    As for ignoring his posts, there's only so much that can be responded to feasibly. I've chosen to focus my efforts on the most egregiously wrong points, and the people trying to assign agendas to me that I don't actually have. Kyoryu's done none of that.
    Thanks. I try to engage in debates with honesty and integrity.

    Because otherwise, ya know, what's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Good grief. Just cast mind blank like the rest of us.
    Yes, well, that's not really sufficient for those of us that have signed Section Thr....

    Nevermind. Yes, that's a perfectly fine suggestion.
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2018-01-11 at 06:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    I just went through and reread every one of his posts (unless Chrome's search function missed some). None of my criticisms apply to them, which is why I didn't include them in said criticisms. At most I'll say that the impression I've gotten assigns an out sized role to the Forge and similar a bit, but the claim that there is baggage for specific people who've engaged in specific arguments against the Forge being applied elsewhere is a totally different claim than "collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase", let alone the accusations of pushing agendas being thrown around left and right.

    As for ignoring his posts, there's only so much that can be responded to feasibly. I've chosen to focus my efforts on the most egregiously wrong points, and the people trying to assign agendas to me that I don't actually have. Kyoryu's done none of that.
    Because not bothering to engage the constructive posts in favor of engaging posts that are (at least according to you) "egregiously wrong" does so much for the quality of discourse...

    "The agenda" was about some posters trying whatever it took to apply a term to other people's gaming, no matter what it took, even if that meant stripping the term down to a word-by-word over-literal definition based on the broadest loosest meanings of the individual words, and utterly ignoring any other usages of that term*, and utterly ignoring the history of that term, and telling people things like "This is what you do when you game, even if you don't want to, don't intend to, and don't attempt to." and "We know more about how you think and how your mind works and what's going on in your head than you do." and "You're kidding yourself if you don't think you're telling stories." and "all communication is storytelling".

    The reason The Forge came up was twofold: because those were exactly the sort of tactics that Edwards and his little cult used, and because that's where a chunk of the nastiest baggage comes from.

    * Outside of gaming, collaborative storytelling refers to a whole swath of things have nothing to do with RPGs. Inside gaming, "storygames" and "storytelling games" are names for narrower specific type of game.

    And it's pretty freaking ironic to object to people "assigning you agendas you don't have" but evidently be fine with telling people what their in-game agenda is even when they repeatedly tell you that it's not why they game, or how they game, or what they do when they game.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-11 at 10:12 PM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Again, I go to my three interaction types in RPGs

    1)
    GM: "This is the situation"
    Player: "I do this."
    GM: "This is the new situation."

    2)
    Player 1: "I move my piece in accordance with the rules."
    Player 2: "I move my piece in accordance with the rules."
    Player 3: "I move my piece in accordance with the rules."

    3)
    Player 1: "This happens."
    Player 2: "Then this happens."
    Player 3: "Then this happens."

    Few games are strictly one type or another, and most blend at least two. "Cooperative storytelling" is primarily when everyone is engaging in type 3 interactions for the majority of the game. Fiasco, Microscope, Penny For My Thoughts, Kingdom - these are all good examples.

    My personal beef is the "it's all about storytelling." No, it's not, unless you stretch the definition of "storytelling" to the breaking point, and make it so expansive that any human activity can be "about storytelling."

    Snip
    In regards to Kyoryu's comments which mainly focus around this post I would have to strongly disagree with the statement that it is only my stretching the definition of storytelling to it's breaking point that storytelling would describe what is going on during a gaming session. A group of people are sitting around a table providing an account of the actions and dialogue of characters within a fiction. That seems to pretty much be the very definition of storytelling to me.

    The only real interesting point which has come up in my eyes is the tense of the actions. If you can describe something which is happening at the moment as a story. After taking a peek at some books on my shelves and thinking back on some news coverage though I reached the personal conclusion that yes it can.

    I established a base line of this conclusion by comparing it to Tanarii's definition and asking myself it seems more reasonable. Now one of the key components in Tanarii's definition is that the term story in an RPG only applies when one disregards causal resolution in favour of narrative resolution. So a person who utilizes causal resolution cannot be engaged in storytelling by that definition.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy
    And it's pretty freaking ironic to object to people "assigning you agendas you don't have" but evidently be fine with telling people what their in-game agenda is even when they repeatedly tell you that it's not why they game, or how they game, or what they do when they game.
    That's the thing though Sir Killjoy. Nobody has been trying to tell you what your in-game agenda is. They have been trying to tell you what your actions are. There is a load of difference there. This cycles back to the intent discussion however I think everyone established their thoughts on that and you now know that no-one is discussing your agenda although we do still have disagreements on if intent matters.
    Last edited by Tinkerer; 2018-01-11 at 08:18 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    The necessity of maintaining a shared "secondary reality" and mental gamespace between those involved in the game, does not in and of itself make for "storytelling". Communication must occur or there is no game. Presenting that as being an automatic act of storytelling is nothing less than an assertion that all communication is supposedly storytelling.
    Not necessarily. It could also say that the inherent nature of those "necessary communications" means that it fits into the category of communication known as "storytelling", without saying that all communication is storytelling

    Does that make sense?

    Anything I can explain/clarify?

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    And it's pretty freaking ironic to object to people "assigning you agendas you don't have" but evidently be fine with telling people what their in-game agenda is even when they repeatedly tell you that it's not why they game, or how they game, or what they do when they game.
    That's funny, I don't remember telling people what their in-game agenda is. I remember explicitly describing it as an incidental side effect, and saying that the actions they explicitly say they're doing fit the definition.

    As another analogy, consider the terms "ape" and "animal". Yes, there's an application of both terms where you use them to describe people as an insult. "You're an animal" as specific phrasing is almost always an insult.

    That doesn't mean that saying "animal is a meaingless word" is in any way correct, and when people familiar with basic taxonomy point out that it's a useful category getting pissy because they dared to state that humans are animals, even when they insist that they're not.

    That's what's going on here. Tanarii opened the thread with "animal is a meaningless word", most of the thread responded "animal is a useful taxonomic term", and then there's been push back alternating between "I'm not an animal, how dare you call me an animal", "The term animal has baggage, so I object to being called an animal", and "If you look at horizontal gene transfer in bacteria it really shows that the whole concept of a species is fuzzy. Therefore all words pertaining to species classification are meaningless, therefore 'animal' is a meaningless term."

    Yet everyone here is still an animal. Whether or not we intend to be an animal is irrelevant.
    Last edited by Knaight; 2018-01-11 at 07:36 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    The necessity of maintaining a shared "secondary reality" and mental gamespace between those involved in the game, does not in and of itself make for "storytelling". Communication must occur or there is no game. Presenting that as being an automatic act of storytelling is nothing less than an assertion that all communication is supposedly storytelling.
    But it isn't all communication. Even during an RPG, plenty of communication isn't storytelling... such as discussing rule mechanics.

    AND it comes across as a "gotcha", a cheap rhetorical trick, whereby those who are decidedly NOT engaged in storytelling are told "well you can't play without communicating, so you're doing story no matter what".
    I'm really sorry that you have encountered these story Nazis... that seem to insist that storytelling should be the motivation and purpose of playing an RPG. I think they are idiots and wrong.

    There is no hidden agenda behind my saying that "technically you are telling a story when you play an RPG, even if that isn't why you are playing"... I'm just making a logical statement based on the meaning of a word. The only reason I argue this is because you are saying that my logic is wrong... I don't care about stories or about the phrase "collaborative storytelling", I'm just defending my logic.
    Last edited by Aliquid; 2018-01-11 at 07:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerer View Post
    That's the thing though Sir Killjoy. Nobody has been trying to tell you what your agenda is. They have been trying to tell you what your actions are. There is a load of difference there. This cycles back to the intent discussion however I think everyone established their thoughts on that and you now know that no-one is discussing your agenda although we do still have disagreements on if intent matters.
    Regarding the bold part... based on the term, what the term means in broader contexts, and the arguments used in favor of the term in this specific context, the only reason I know that people aren't doing that is because they are very specifically telling me that they're not doing that.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Regarding the bold part... based on the term, what the term means in broader contexts, and the arguments used in favor of the term in this specific context, the only reason I know that people aren't doing that is because they are very specifically telling me that they're not doing that.
    Hmm, I'm gonna go back and add "in-game" before the word agenda. No one is telling you what your in-game agenda is. That was the intent there. Aside from that I don't quite follow.
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerer View Post
    Hmm, I'm gonna go back and add "in-game" before the word agenda. No one is telling you what your in-game agenda is. That was the intent there. Aside from that I don't quite follow.
    What I'm saying is the very term "collaborative storytelling", and the larger outside-this-thread contexts and usages of that term, and the arguments made in-thread in favor of that term, all gave the appearance of direct assertion about why and how other people game; that is, an assertion about their "agenda" for engaging in the act of playing a PC in an RPG.

    The only reason I've been given to conclude that some posters were not making that assertion about other players and their "agendas in gaming" is their statements that they were not making that assertion.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  16. - Top - End - #466

    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerer View Post
    That is the whole point of having multiple authors in a linearly progressing story, you don't get to control everything.
    Except the Classic Type RPG (aka like D&D) only have one author: The DM. Players, at best, might get a Producer credit or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerer View Post
    In short I don't get why you interpret story as predetermined-narrative.
    I'd say as a story, to be a good story, needs a lot of predetermination.

    Everyone is SO caught up on the Bad Story: This is where you just do some random stuff for a set amount of time, then stop. After you stop, you can look back and tell the story of what you did during that time. And this does not work for fiction as you will just have a random mess of ''this happened'' or ''that happened'' and then ''I did this or that''. It will be the story of what you did, but it will be a bad fiction story.

    A good story, even more so a good fictional story, needs things like predetermination and details and things set up.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    It sounds like a good understanding of the nature of language informed by reading linguistic theorists like Agamben. In other words, yes, and get over it.
    Agamben's a moron and post-modernism is trash :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Put a mystery to solve,
    That's a story

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    or an enemy infiltrator to uncover,
    That's also a story

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    or an artifact to recover,
    That's a story too
    Last edited by ross; 2018-01-11 at 09:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    What I'm saying is the very term "collaborative storytelling", and the larger outside-this-thread contexts and usages of that term, and the arguments made in-thread in favor of that term, all gave the appearance of direct assertion about why and how other people game; that is, an assertion about their "agenda" for engaging in the act of playing a PC in an RPG.

    The only reason I've been given to conclude that some posters were not making that assertion about other players and their "agendas in gaming" is their statements that they were not making that assertion.
    Hmm, I know it's against the rules to pull from another thread however does that apply if I ask your permission?
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by ross View Post
    That's a story



    That's also a story



    That's a story too

    Not unless they're structured into actual stories.

    Or you're claiming that the real world is also comprised entirely of stories.

    At which point you've reduced the word "story" to uselessness through ubiquity.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-11 at 09:49 PM.
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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Not unless they're structured into actual stories.

    Or you're claiming that the real world is also comprised entirely of stories.

    At which point you've reduced the word "story" to uselessness through ubiquity.
    Nope, it's ubiquitous and useful.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by ross View Post
    Nope, it's ubiquitous and useful.
    This ground has been very well covered at this point, and your "position" already thoroughly addressed.

    Your random grab of old points comes across as crap-stirring. Try at least reading to the end of the thread first.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    This ground has been very well covered at this point, and your "position" already thoroughly addressed.

    Your random grab of old points comes across as crap-stirring. Try at least reading to the end of the thread first.
    welcome to being the lone/two arguer of your lone unpopular point, Max.

    your argue and you argue your point, but then a new person with the popular point comes up and starts it all over again. this is why I recommend you give up, save yourself the trouble. you'll get tired of this eventually, better give up while you can still bow out gracefully in these kinds of threads.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    welcome to being the lone/two arguer of your lone unpopular point, Max.

    your argue and you argue your point, but then a new person with the popular point comes up and starts it all over again. this is why I recommend you give up, save yourself the trouble. you'll get tired of this eventually, better give up while you can still bow out gracefully in these kinds of threads.
    For what it's worth I'm in complete agreement with them on everything except the definition of "storytelling" and "story". And "account" apparently... and a few of the digressions. Unfortunately when the definition of collaborative storytelling is the point of the thread that doesn't really account for much. They are a trio though.
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerer View Post
    For what it's worth I'm in complete agreement with them on everything except the definition of "storytelling" and "story". And "account" apparently... and a few of the digressions. Unfortunately when the definition of collaborative storytelling is the point of the thread that doesn't really account for much. They are a trio though.
    Which is kind of my point. you argue for too long on something minuscule and stupid like this, you start annoying people more than having a conversation with them, which can only make you enemies, and making enemies is never good, especially when they otherwise agree with you on other things.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerer View Post
    For what it's worth I'm in complete agreement with them on everything except the definition of "storytelling" and "story". And "account" apparently... and a few of the digressions. Unfortunately when the definition of collaborative storytelling is the point of the thread that doesn't really account for much. They are a trio though.
    I can say the same thing.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    welcome to being the lone/two arguer of your lone unpopular point, Max.

    your argue and you argue your point, but then a new person with the popular point comes up and starts it all over again. this is why I recommend you give up, save yourself the trouble. you'll get tired of this eventually, better give up while you can still bow out gracefully in these kinds of threads.
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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Not unless they're structured into actual stories.

    Or you're claiming that the real world is also comprised entirely of stories.

    At which point you've reduced the word "story" to uselessness through ubiquity.
    The real world tends to generate "history", not "story". Note the relation of the words.

    Context matters here. I can accept your position under the stipulation that there're some gaming styles that are more focused on exploration of a fictional world and those will indeed inly generate history, not story. But I think that those styles are far less common than the ones that are based on exploration of a story. Note the difference between the setting being the game in contrast to the story being the game and the setting only being the background and facilitator to it.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    Max and Cosi should go on a date...but then I would be horrified of any resulting love-children
    A stubborn being who endlessly argues for both imbalance AND real world simulationism? That would be horrifying, at least it would be unlikely for them to end up in any position of power, that would be too inconsistent for both of them! After all, they'd have tell so many lies, and for the life of me I can't imagine either of them lying at all, they're so aggressively honest.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    welcome to being the lone/two arguer of your lone unpopular point, Max.
    I know this well myself.


    I'll say again: to just tell the sequence of events that happened for a set time is the worst and lowest possible type of story. Just barley counting as a story. So, sure, at the very, very, very bottom of the types of stories is the ''this is what I did Friday'' types. This type of story takes no skill, talent and very little effort. And nearly all the time it will be dull, boring and uninteresting. All most all the time: exciting, engaging and interesting things simply do not happen. Though it's popular as anyone, and again with no skill or talent or anything else, can tell the story of what happened for a set time.

    But telling at tale is a story like a bread and water is a meal. You can have bread and water for a meal, and it does count as a meal...same way telling a tale counts as a story.

    Now, a Real Story (like a feast) needs preparation and an outline, and rails, and all sorts of things. A Real Story has a propose: to tell ''something'' for a reason. A Real Story has a start and middle and end. And maybe most of all, a story is controlled/set up/created/ and made for things to happen.

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    Default Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    The real world tends to generate "history", not "story". Note the relation of the words.
    After several years of Naval service, traveling all over Asia and the South Pacific, the stories I could tell you could fill volumes.

    History IS stories...History is the collection of stories from the many peoples and events, that all come together at random place, at a random time, and combine into a story larger than the sum if it's parts.

    Sit down and watch "A Band of Brothers."

    You get the stories of the individual soldiers.
    You get the stories of the entire unit.
    You get the stories of the places they visit, and the people they encounter.
    All of those combine, and you get the story of various theaters of action during WW2.
    Combine all of the stories of the various theaters of acting during WW2, and you get History.
    History is nothing more than a story that has grown so big, it out lives, and becomes bigger than, the people and places that took part in them

    For ages, before man started writing things down, history was told to new generations as stories, heroic lays, songs.... Just because you take a lot of the excitement out if a story, and just tell the bare facts, doesn't make it any less of a story.
    Last edited by Mutazoia; 2018-01-12 at 07:49 AM.
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