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    MindFlayer

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    Default Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    The story here is that the Paladin in my group was facing a minotaur and kicking ass but the battle turned on him. He called out to the gods for assistance and rolled a CRIT FAIL 1. Rather than saying he heard no reply, I opted to let him HAVE the blessing. He killed the minotaur and felt really good about being a divine class.

    So now the plan for this player will be for him to get REALLY involved with his deity. I told him he stared experiencing dreams that night and to tell me what they are next session. His divine connection grows stronger every level, as you do when you are a paladin. HOWEVER, I have decided that an evil deity not only heard his call for aid, but now wishes to corrupt him in its service.

    Problem: How do I mechanically handle an evil god PRETENDING to be a good god when it comes to alignment and the various mechanics. Its easy to brush that aside on some level but this is going to be a pivotal moment later when the big reveal happens and the deity reveals themselves to be a horrid perversion of everything that they THINK they hold dear. i.e. little perversions over time that eventually build into a terrible dogma.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazeeb View Post
    The story here is that the Paladin in my group was facing a minotaur and kicking ass but the battle turned on him. He called out to the gods for assistance and rolled a CRIT FAIL 1. Rather than saying he heard no reply, I opted to let him HAVE the blessing. He killed the minotaur and felt really good about being a divine class.

    So now the plan for this player will be for him to get REALLY involved with his deity. I told him he stared experiencing dreams that night and to tell me what they are next session. His divine connection grows stronger every level, as you do when you are a paladin. HOWEVER, I have decided that an evil deity not only heard his call for aid, but now wishes to corrupt him in its service.

    Problem: How do I mechanically handle an evil god PRETENDING to be a good god when it comes to alignment and the various mechanics. Its easy to brush that aside on some level but this is going to be a pivotal moment later when the big reveal happens and the deity reveals themselves to be a horrid perversion of everything that they THINK they hold dear. i.e. little perversions over time that eventually build into a terrible dogma.
    Seems a pretty nice idea, so the deity should try to corrupt the paladin steb by step. Start by giving him instruction to be ruthless in battle. Persuade him to murder a few prisoners, because "they are too dangerous to keep". Go on to persuade him that it's fine to deal collateral damage to civilians when needed. I can see the party planning an assault to an orc village and the paladin going "my god told me it's fine if we fireball from afar without concern for elders and children, because going it would be too dangerous". From there, try to turn him into an extremist who will cast detect evil on a crowded alley and kill all those that blip. Incidentally, the player should by now figure out something is wrong.
    Make sure that he can atone if he figures it out in time.
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Start out by giving the paladin "special quests" that seem like normal paladin quests, but secretly serve the evil god's interests. Then start the corruption process by, as King of Nowere suggested, encouraging him to be ruthless against those of the evil races, and allowing collateral damage because "that's just the fortunes of war."
    Last edited by Oracle71; 2017-12-29 at 09:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Alternatively, try using this take on Pelor:
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Only advice I've got is to not do the whole "trick the Paladin into falling without warning" thing, unless the player is okay with it.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Sounds interesting.

    IF the Player knows about and is OK with something like that. Otherwise its a really really ****ty move to be avoided like the plague.
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    conjures popcorn and some coke and watches. this would be interesting
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    Only advice I've got is to not do the whole "trick the Paladin into falling without warning" thing, unless the player is okay with it.
    What kind of carebear nonsense is this? If the player didn't want their character concept involuntarily warped beyond regonition, they wouldn't be in a game. The player knew perfectly well what they were getting into, as the only reason to play Paladins is so they can fall. The GM is the player's eyes and ears, so they are totally entitled to feel smugly superior when they 'outwit' the players by lying to them constantly.
    Last edited by Arbane; 2017-12-29 at 12:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    I've actually done something like this before in a game, albeit with a cleric whose god went bad. The corruption needs to be very, very subtle, probably over years and years. Remember, you're dealing with the timeline of a god - to them, a hundred years is like the blink of an eye. So make very slow, subtle moves over the course of the entire campaign. Executing prisoners is a good start, particularly evil prisoners. Then throw in a few morally ambiguous prisoners. Then begin suggesting that everyone is evil because everyone commits evil actions. Get them believing that. Then, once they're good and ready, throw a morally good person in front of them with some false accusation. Try to get them to dispense justice. Then, if you can swing it, have them aid in the execution of a party member. That should be sufficient to make them fall.

    Then give them the choice - continue in service to the new god (think Darth Vader, without the corner plunge into CE madness that followed) or quest for atonement (Revan's path, from Knights of the Old Republic, for example). Either way, this becomes a major subplot and possibly leads to encounters for the whole group without screwing up the player's character too much.
    One of my players: "I hate you. I spent like...3 hours pouring over lists of items for bards. Reading, learning, analyzing, trying to improve my knowledge of the game, as I have a major decision coming up. You know what I decided after all of this? Vest of Resistance +3. Simply because you are that evil. No Cloak of Charisma, no Bardic Music enhancers. NOPE. VEST OF RESISTANCE."

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    Only advice I've got is to not do the whole "trick the Paladin into falling without warning" thing, unless the player is okay with it.
    To be fair, I don't think this paladin is about to "fall" so much as "get dragged screaming into the void they swore to fight"
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantasyPen View Post
    To be fair, I don't think this paladin is about to "fall" so much as "get dragged screaming into the void they swore to fight"
    Well, if his "deity" encourages him to do un-paladinish stuff, the player should realize it. if he does not, he deserves to fall, and his subsequent atonement could make for a good story.

    Question is, what is the actual patron god of the paladin doing? I expect whatever LG god the paladin actually worship will try to protect him, show him the truth.
    You could have an encounter where another paladin tells him the truth, and your player has to decide if he trusts this other paladin or if this guy is actually a bad guy trying to deceive him. It would also be a good way to "not screw up the player without big warning signs".
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Pazuzu from Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss sounds like a good "deity" to use for this. He loves corrupting creatures and he has the power to do so.

    ps, I'm new and don't know how to do the quote things that people often do around here when quoting the book, so I'll just say a page number: 77

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    There’s two issues here. The first is the Evil god pretending to be a Good god. That’s mostly been handled pretty well by the discussion so far.

    The second issue is the Evil god pretending to be THIS GUY’S specific god. If the Paladin was actually devoted to a specific deity before (instead of just generically LG, which is totally possible but far from guaranteed), I don’t see much of an elegant way for the Evil god to pretend to be whoever he was devoted to before, unless you’ve got some convincing reason why this Evil deity would directly interfere with a mortal but that mortal’s sworn divine patron (who is probably at least nominally invested in their own capital-P Paladins) wouldn’t get involved somehow. If you’ve made the gods be distant beings who pretty much don’t ever interfere directly in their followers’ lives (even the members of “divine classes”), then maybe this is just a powerful but non-deific fiend who’s a little bit more involved in flesh-and-blood matters than an actual god would be, but otherwise, I can see a player calling BS on their actual god not stepping in somehow.
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I can see a player calling BS on their actual god not stepping in somehow.
    Good Is Stupid. This is proven by the fact that only Good people try to be Paladins in the first place.
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    Only advice I've got is to not do the whole "trick the Paladin into falling without warning" thing, unless the player is okay with it.
    At the end of the day my intention is not really to get him to fall. I want him to question this god (in due time) that grants him spells and power. What I want is the player reaction, that dawning moment of comprehension that they are a GOOD character following an EVIL god. What they do next is up to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Sounds interesting.

    IF the Player knows about and is OK with something like that. Otherwise its a really really ****ty move to be avoided like the plague.
    I agree. Tricks for the intent of being a prick aren't good in my book. Tricks for the intent of character growth or story line however is warranted in my DM toolbox.

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    conjures popcorn and some coke and watches. this would be interesting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    What kind of carebear nonsense is this? If the player didn't want their character concept involuntarily warped beyond regonition, they wouldn't be in a game. The player knew perfectly well what they were getting into, as the only reason to play Paladins is so they can fall. The GM is the player's eyes and ears, so they are totally entitled to feel smugly superior when they 'outwit' the players by lying to them constantly.
    To be fair, I warned each of them that this world hosts the Lovecraft mythos; the world is cruel and the gods don't have to care. I constantly do things to surprise them with and shove grit into their teeth and under their nails.

    Quote Originally Posted by WesleyVos View Post
    I've actually done something like this before in a game, albeit with a cleric whose god went bad. The corruption needs to be very, very subtle, probably over years and years. Remember, you're dealing with the timeline of a god - to them, a hundred years is like the blink of an eye. So make very slow, subtle moves over the course of the entire campaign. Executing prisoners is a good start, particularly evil prisoners. Then throw in a few morally ambiguous prisoners. Then begin suggesting that everyone is evil because everyone commits evil actions. Get them believing that. Then, once they're good and ready, throw a morally good person in front of them with some false accusation. Try to get them to dispense justice. Then, if you can swing it, have them aid in the execution of a party member. That should be sufficient to make them fall.

    Then give them the choice - continue in service to the new god (think Darth Vader, without the corner plunge into CE madness that followed) or quest for atonement (Revan's path, from Knights of the Old Republic, for example). Either way, this becomes a major subplot and possibly leads to encounters for the whole group without screwing up the player's character too much.
    I think a slow build up of worship is a good idea. Make him a missionary and use him to build a new faith, perhaps even head of a church, only to have the word of God be something that doesn't align with his personal dogma. I think it will be necessary to relax the alignment restriction on paladin in order to make this work.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantasyPen View Post
    To be fair, I don't think this paladin is about to "fall" so much as "get dragged screaming into the void they swore to fight"
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    Well, if his "deity" encourages him to do un-paladinish stuff, the player should realize it. if he does not, he deserves to fall, and his subsequent atonement could make for a good story.

    Question is, what is the actual patron god of the paladin doing? I expect whatever LG god the paladin actually worship will try to protect him, show him the truth.
    You could have an encounter where another paladin tells him the truth, and your player has to decide if he trusts this other paladin or if this guy is actually a bad guy trying to deceive him. It would also be a good way to "not screw up the player without big warning signs".
    The group will be safe under my wong from his actions, but NPCs and monsters will not. Even story essential ones. I must get a god written up to make use of a carefully worded dogma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    Pazuzu from Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss sounds like a good "deity" to use for this. He loves corrupting creatures and he has the power to do so.

    ps, I'm new and don't know how to do the quote things that people often do around here when quoting the book, so I'll just say a page number: 77
    I love the idea of Pazuzu. Especially the last bit:

    Pazuzu might also answer anyone who uttered his name, or one of his aliases, three times in succession. This type of summons formed a link between the demon lord and the victim, across any distance or the planes. This link provided Pazuzu with the ability to read the thoughts of the summoner, determine their intentions, and appear directly beside them at will. Pazuzu typically granted aid at much cost to the victim, and would grant this aid repeatedly, establishing a dependence on Pazuzu's services. Through one victim, the Corrupter could reach others, spreading through whole communities.

    Maybe I can cherry pick this for use and make a custom diety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    There’s two issues here. The first is the Evil god pretending to be a Good god. That’s mostly been handled pretty well by the discussion so far.

    The second issue is the Evil god pretending to be THIS GUY’S specific god. If the Paladin was actually devoted to a specific deity before (instead of just generically LG, which is totally possible but far from guaranteed), I don’t see much of an elegant way for the Evil god to pretend to be whoever he was devoted to before, unless you’ve got some convincing reason why this Evil deity would directly interfere with a mortal but that mortal’s sworn divine patron (who is probably at least nominally invested in their own capital-P Paladins) wouldn’t get involved somehow. If you’ve made the gods be distant beings who pretty much don’t ever interfere directly in their followers’ lives (even the members of “divine classes”), then maybe this is just a powerful but non-deific fiend who’s a little bit more involved in flesh-and-blood matters than an actual god would be, but otherwise, I can see a player calling BS on their actual god not stepping in somehow.
    This is a well point and its my fault the paladin is in this situation. I've been avoiding the gods and pantheons in my world. I opted to let him play the class and have access to the powers that be but the specific moment he finds his faith was/is meant to be party of a greater story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Good Is Stupid. This is proven by the fact that only Good people try to be Paladins in the first place.
    "Good is Good, but Bad is Better."

    If the player renounces his faith and quests to find a new god when the time comes, I'll reward him with a holy war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    Alternatively, try using this take on Pelor:
    Ooooooh that is brilliant! I need to have more of this. Nearly everything in Pyria is either a perversion or swapped around from the regular idea of DnD. My players keep stumbling over the idea that cyclops were the ones that spawned most races and Satyrs are the Swiss bankers of the world and hold the monopoloy on teleportation magic; don't even get me started on the gorgons.
    Last edited by Hazeeb; 2017-12-30 at 06:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    So I did some thinking and wanted this god to be grey enough that the player would have no reason to lash out later and may, in fact, enjoy continuing to serve. I took some great material from other gods and rolled it into her.


    Eos

    Titles The Burning Claw, The Forgotton Flame, The Shining Scourge, The Lion's Teeth
    Home Unknown/Forgotten
    Alignment Neutral Evil
    Areas of Concern Warfare, The Sun, Pride and Deception
    Worshipers Scattered desert tribes
    Domains War, Sun, Strength, Trickery, Lion
    Subdomains Tactics, Thirst, Resolve, Heroism, Deception
    Favored Weapon Heavy mace
    Symbol Lion jaws around the sun or three black claws surrounded by an orange flame.
    Sacred Animals Lion
    Sacred Colors Yellow, orange

    Eosis the exception to the rule that the sun is associated with benevolent deities and a force for good in the world. For those that fear the sun or enjoy its capability for destruction, the worship of Eos beckons.

    Eos came into power during The Long Night, during the millennia long conflict against the aberrations. Worshiped primarily by desert nomads and those calling for light in the darkness, her power remained solid among those faithful until the Age of Dragons. After that point dragon worship and a newer, gentler gods came into power and Eos was slowly forgotten by all but her most zealous followers and the clerics of Bastet, with whom she regards as a bitter rival among cats. Eos is desperate to come back into worship and frequently "assumes" the place of those calling for divine aid in order to convert them to her worship and regrow her faith.

    Eos is a cruel god and revels in planning the defeat of her foes, often demanding captured heretics be burned alive or staked out in the desert sun to die of dehydration. She despises undead because they are often weakened or destroyed by the sun and cannot offer her proper worship. She is a proud creature and brooks no insult to her person OR worshipers. Those found guilty of this offense find themselves attacked by a pack of large predatory cats within days.

    Eos's head and lower body is of a golden lion with flaming paws, with her midriff that of a dark, humanoid female. Intense light is emitted from her eyes and mouth and her voice booms whenever she deigns to speak. Eos's signature weapon is a heavy mace with a small sun acting as its head.

    Eos might also answer anyone who utters her name, or one of his aliases, three times in succession. This type of summons forms a link between the Eos and the caller, across any distance or the planes. This link provided Eos with the ability to read the thoughts of the summoner, determine their intentions, and appear directly beside them at will. Eos typically grants aid at much cost to the caller, and would grant this aid repeatedly, establishing a dependence on Eos's services. These vary from simple requests such as providing a divine source of light when surrounded by darkness, or far more direct such as summoning a pack of lions to fight for the worshipper.


    SUGGESTIONS??
    Last edited by Hazeeb; 2018-01-03 at 08:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    All I can imagine now is that the Paladin has some kind of accent and ended up screaming "Pl-eos help me!" three times in succession.
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    d6 Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Allow the Paladin a chance send conflicting dreams. One of falling his deity one of standing in a valley new fun deity.

    Send a priest of the new deity to a location where the Paladin is staying. This priest can say his prayers at noon in the sun light if allowed to join the party. if not allowed to join party have a second member of the priest party suggest a joint effort to go on a mission to other party members that can not detect evil. If they do not want to become one party suggest camping 75 feet apart so that it is just out of dark vision range and hearing distance but still a good reaction time to help. Everybody needs some privacy.

    Next have the priest heal the paladin to spur him on to more risky behavior and create that special bond of trust.

    As it progresses have the priest insist on small things that are morally grey. Have a thief steal provisions for example. Do you let her go or hunt them down and execute? After that have a flying manticore attack the party when it is brought down suggest that the meat could be eaten. eating for survival is good eating an intelligent being is grey. One hundred pounds of meat for two parties of # unknown goes a long way.

    In the adventure have people beg for mercy from both groups the evil one first. They get cut down does the Paladin follow suit?

    Nothing I have stated is anything serious and all player choice actions. You are setting a table telling a story but the Paladin and his buddies are in charge and can act as they will.
    Last edited by denthor; 2017-12-30 at 02:34 PM. Reason: you already answered
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    All I can imagine now is that the Paladin has some kind of accent and ended up screaming "Pl-eos help me!" three times in succession.
    HA!

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    Allow the Paladin a chance send conflicting dreams. One of falling his deity one of standing in a valley new fun deity.

    Send a priest of the new deity to a location where the Paladin is staying. This priest can say his prayers at noon in the sun light if allowed to join the party. if not allowed to join party have a second member of the priest party suggest a joint effort to go on a mission to other party members that can not detect evil. If they do not want to become one party suggest camping 75 feet apart so that it is just out of dark vision range and hearing distance but still a good reaction time to help. Everybody needs some privacy.

    Next have the priest heal the paladin to spur him on to more risky behavior and create that special bond of trust.

    As it progresses have the priest insist on small things that are morally grey. Have a thief steal provisions for example. Do you let her go or hunt them down and execute? After that have a flying manticore attack the party when it is brought down suggest that the meat could be eaten. eating for survival is good eating an intelligent being is grey. One hundred pounds of meat for two parties of # unknown goes a long way.

    In the adventure have people beg for mercy from both groups the evil one first. They get cut down does the Paladin follow suit?

    Nothing I have stated is anything serious and all player choice actions. You are setting a table telling a story but the Paladin and his buddies are in charge and can act as they will.
    The Paladin is currently LG and the new god i drafted is NE.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    You're employing an entire god to screw the player over. Don't do this. It's not fun.

    At minimum the paladin wouldn't be the first and there would be some kind of larger plot for him to discover with other paladins and clerics getting screwed over first. The deity shouldn't even be interested in the paladin individually unless he's level 15+. If not level 25+.
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    You're employing an entire god to screw the player over. Don't do this. It's not fun.

    At minimum the paladin wouldn't be the first and there would be some kind of larger plot for him to discover with other paladins and clerics getting screwed over first. The deity shouldn't even be interested in the paladin individually unless he's level 15+. If not level 25+.
    I think you haven't really understood the point of this thread.

    Some background: the paladin is facing down an armored minotaur at level one with his party. It looks rough and he is asking for wiggle room. I ask him squarely "how badly do you want this divine blessing." He replied with "i want to survive". That was enough justification for me to have him roll and utter a prayer. He rolls a natural 1. Instead if a straight fail i felt it was a better story mechanic that he succeeded
    Because something other than good answered him.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    One thing to keep in mind is that Evil isn't one big happy family. Eos may well have rivals/enemies among the Evil and Neutral gods as well as the Good--so in the initial stages of her plan, she could send her shiny new paladin on missions that won't set off any alarm bells. Her hatred of undead could be particularly good for this. The paladin won't find anything odd about his god tasking him with taking out a pack of ghouls, a vampire, or a necromancer.
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazeeb View Post
    I think you haven't really understood the point of this thread.

    Some background: the paladin is facing down an armored minotaur at level one with his party. It looks rough and he is asking for wiggle room. I ask him squarely "how badly do you want this divine blessing." He replied with "i want to survive". That was enough justification for me to have him roll and utter a prayer. He rolls a natural 1. Instead if a straight fail i felt it was a better story mechanic that he succeeded
    Because something other than good answered him.
    So what prophecy is the paladin a part of that makes this evil deity think he will ever make it past level 1?
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    This reminds me of a bit from the Simpsons episode "Behind the Laughter"

    Narrator: "The simpsons had started out on a wing and a prayer, but now that wing was on fire and the prayer had been answered by Satan"

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Hmmm, Level 1?

    In that case I would not do it, unless you ahve a very good explanation for why the God(dess) is doing it AND the player is all fired up about this (he has to know, as said above).

    I somehow thought this was a mid to high Level paladin....
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    So what prophecy is the paladin a part of that makes this evil deity think he will ever make it past level 1?
    As a matter of fact he is now level 2! I give all players one Ex Machina in my world for death (before level 3). While the Paladin hasn't had to use his yet, he made it very clear that a direction of divine class is his goal.

    As for prophecy? Those are easy to manufacture and make vague enough to work with. If its necessary I'll craft one for him to discover later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    This reminds me of a bit from the Simpsons episode "Behind the Laughter"

    Narrator: "The simpsons had started out on a wing and a prayer, but now that wing was on fire and the prayer had been answered by Satan"
    Love that episode.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Hmmm, Level 1?

    In that case I would not do it, unless you ahve a very good explanation for why the God(dess) is doing it AND the player is all fired up about this (he has to know, as said above).

    I somehow thought this was a mid to high Level paladin....
    This is for character growth. We can't blindly accept help and pretend there are no consequences. Giving players a chance to either confront or embrace something in this scenario allows for story and role play that keep the game interesting and engaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aka-chan View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that Evil isn't one big happy family. Eos may well have rivals/enemies among the Evil and Neutral gods as well as the Good--so in the initial stages of her plan, she could send her shiny new paladin on missions that won't set off any alarm bells. Her hatred of undead could be particularly good for this. The paladin won't find anything odd about his god tasking him with taking out a pack of ghouls, a vampire, or a necromancer.
    Now THAT is a good idea. I believe this could work quite nicely since he's low level and (so far) shows a knack for combat in game.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Not to be a killjoy, but Paladins don't gain their powers from deities, or even the idea that they are acting as an intermediary of said deities, but simply from being lawful good. They are powered by the alignment itself, unbodied and pure.
    They can worship deities, but it offers them no more benefit than a fighter worshiping Kord, or Ares. It's a choice and an unnecessary[mechanical] one.

    If he was requesting this, it would be fine, but it seems like both he and you are slightly off bullseye.


    If it works for you AND the player, my point is moot, because there are divine intervention rules in deities and demigods, but if he thinks that his powers come from worship of a deity, he's technically wrong. It's from being righteous and having a code. That code might be the tenents of a lawful good religion, but they come from the internal emotional connection to those ideals, rather than an outsider.



    If you told him that it was a dark god from the jump and he made the choice, well, then you have the option to explore possibly his paladin levels being forfeit, and him taking his next level in cleric of said deity, but just going for the switcheroo is kind of ...bleh


    If this were 4e, then I'd be wrong though. They definitely align themselves with deities/religions for their powers. You get more paladin of X there.

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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    I think you can do corruption better than "fireballing a few orcs" - especially with the direction you are going in with Eos.

    Eos is a deity of pride and warfare among other things, right? So perhaps encourage the paladin to be an "example to others" by showing off the glory of goodness (and granting some minor boons to the paladin for proper public display of awesomeness). Pride isn't evil, but it DOES go before fall :) Like it was previously suggested, have Eos guide the paladin towards her enemies amongst the gods of evil. Preferably infiltrators/cultists that hide in normal society. Then, once the paladin uncovers the worshipers of darkness, you have some interesting options. For example:

    Have Eos encourage the paladin to lead a "peoples crusade" against evil, claiming that people must learn to stand on their own and can't be forever dependent on a handful of defenders. This makes some kind of sense, but in reality it will cause the loss of lots of civilians that had no business being on a crusade, not to mention making the survivors more brutal and likely to engage in further warfare.

    Are there surviving enemies from the crusade? They must be made an example of! Swift and relatively painless execution is too good for them, make a show of it, where they are tried in a mock trial and executed in public after being dragged around for everyone to see. In short, try to get the paladin to act as a self righteous bully that encourages people getting themselves killed - all in the name of good. Much more interesting than frying a few elderly orcs (that had it coming anyway!).
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Interestingly enough, paladins (at least in PF) don't get their powers from a specific deity. They get it from "the power of goodness" or some rubbish. It is perfectly legitimate for a paladin to offer token worship to an evil god, as long as he never commits an unlawful or evil act, he'd be fine. Of course, the god should be calling for his follower to commit evil (or whatever the alignment of the god might be) acts, but the Paladins choice to follow the gods call, is his own.

    A good way to think about this is for the paladin to look upon his god as like a racist uncle - he loves him because he's family, but would never follow his tenants. So the paladin listens to the gods rants, and tolerates his attitude, but knows the god is wrong, and does good anyway.

    So, i think it should be completely obvious the first time your evil deity tells your pally to do something evil, he should know that something's wrong. If not, then continue the god's quest to corrupt him. When he realizes that the god is actually evil - Do not cause a fall. Allow the pally to retain his powers and seek an atonement if he's committed several questionable acts. (Lets face it, pallys operate in black and white and the world is not a black and white place. Catch 22s and impossible to win situations exist. I think pallys should seek atonement every so often regardless of how good they've been - no one is perfect and making good choices often get people killed anyway).

    If the player choses to fully turn to the evil god, it should be a knowing act. The player and the paladin should be aware of it long before it happens. It should not be a surprise, but a calculated decision. At some point, (not anytime soon) when your player starts to suspect something, the Dm should tell the player what's going on, and offer the player a choice - Chose to go the route of the god, or turn away and seek atonement. Both should enhance the story and have very little affect on the way mechanics go, until/unless the paladin/player ultimately decides to take the fall.
    If the player decides to turn, then make the atonement meaningful and fun for all the players involved. Maybe a quest or side mission. I dunno, use your DM skills to make it an enjoyable part of the story.

    The fall should never be a punishment. The fall and/or atonement should be a story that engages everyone.
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    Default Re: Paladin accidentally connected to evil god and doesn't know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by DMVerdandi View Post
    Not to be a killjoy, but Paladins don't gain their powers from deities, or even the idea that they are acting as an intermediary of said deities, but simply from being lawful good. They are powered by the alignment itself, unbodied and pure.

    Just because its true in your game doesn't mean it true in every game. Paladins specifically get their powers from a deity in our game for example, although with how we work divine spells they could also gain power from outsiders, since they only gain up to 4th level spells.

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