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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Replace Earthen Grasp with Phantasmal Force or Suggestion. They are prime for twinning.

    When you reach 5th level your Cantrip damage will double. Be patient. Right now they're a glorified crossbow. Let the warriors be the damage kings. I'm personally not a fan of Chromatic Orb, but if it works for you great. At higher levels Cantrips outdamage it, but it's good for awhile. Sleep has to go away. I've seen it used well here and there but ultimately it's a waste. It only works on creatures that were going to die in a round anyway from damage. Burning Hands or Thunderwave for area of effect damage. Magic Missile when you need to be sure you hit. Disguise Self or Charm person for utility. When at 5th level and Cantrips become reliable damage, spending a spell slot on Mage Armor is worth it.

    Still, be patient. It gets better. 5th level is key.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Bitters View Post
    For optimal damage... first off, do you tend to stand back a ways from the melee combatants and stay safe, or do you do you get caught up in the fray?
    I stay behind so far as that's possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Bitters View Post
    For long range blasting: twinned chromatic orb, empowered magic missile, and ray of frost/chill touch. Scorching ray for the level 2 spell--it's very, very good.
    In terms of cantrips, would I be better off with Fire Bolt over Ray of Frost?

    I'll take Scorching Ray when I get a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Bitters View Post
    Dragon's breath for the level 2 spell--cast it on yourself, twin it with someone else.. quite good. And then actually once you do that, if you stick with Quicken as a metamagic, you can cast another spell while using your dragon's breath. So you could theoretically pump out 6d6 of damage with burning hands and dragon's breath in an area. Costly but very good damage.

    EDIT: just in case you didn't know, dragon's breath gives the option to do acid, cold, fire, lightning, and poison damage, so you can stick to theme while using it.
    I'm not sure my DM will allow Dragon's Breath but I'll ask. Thanks either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Bitters View Post
    Can you post which classes your party members are playing and also your ability scores for your sorcerer?
    My scores are:
    Str 12
    Dex 14
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Wis 14
    Cha 18
    (Probably the best scores I've ever rolled. I only wish I could make use of them. )

    My other party members are:
    - A half-orc Barbarian
    - A halfling Ranger
    - A tabaxi Rogue
    - A human Paladin
    (Not sure about subclesses offhand.)

    Quote Originally Posted by danpit2991 View Post
    sorry if i came off wrong, wasnt my intent.
    No worries.

    Quote Originally Posted by danpit2991 View Post
    Sorc is a good platform like i said it is your spell list that is causin the suck there have been many suggestions of what to change to stop that suckage ... but like i said it will take DM approval to change it now
    Well, I'd prefer to change spells than to multiclass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Replace Earthen Grasp with Phantasmal Force or Suggestion. They are prime for twinning.
    I'm not really a fan of Phantasmal Force. I've had it before and it's one of those spells that either sits on my spell list gathering dust or else just ends up being a really crap damage spell because the monster in question largely ignores the illusion.

    Suggestion is a good idea though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    When you reach 5th level your Cantrip damage will double. Be patient. Right now they're a glorified crossbow. Let the warriors be the damage kings.
    Yeah, I know cantrips get better eventually, but that knowledge doesn't make the intervening levels any less tedious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I'm personally not a fan of Chromatic Orb, but if it works for you great.
    As I said earlier, I was stupid enough to trust in a sorcerer guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Sleep has to go away. I've seen it used well here and there but ultimately it's a waste. It only works on creatures that were going to die in a round anyway from damage. Burning Hands or Thunderwave for area of effect damage. Magic Missile when you need to be sure you hit. Disguise Self or Charm person for utility. When at 5th level and Cantrips become reliable damage, spending a spell slot on Mage Armor is worth it.

    Still, be patient. It gets better. 5th level is key.
    Alright, cheers for the spell suggestions.
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    Rogue's Capstone: [ERROR] class_feature not found. return value; +1 BAB, +1 Ref

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Out of interest did you play levels 1 and 2 or start straight at 3rd? Little surprised to hear you say sleep has been useless as by third it will be losing some of its oomph but whenever I've played its basically been as instant 'win the encounter' button for the first few levels.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    I recently ran a sorc from 1-5, so I will suggest the following:

    Use Earthen Grasp on enemy casters or rogues who have low strength scores.

    Twinned Ice Knife and Chromatic Orb are efficient damage dealers at low level.

    Swap out Frostbite for Ray of Frost.
    Reducing enemy speed can keep you out of harms way.

    Shield, Mage Armor, and/or absorb elements is helpful for early survivalbilty.

    Twin cast a biff like enlarge/reduce on your heavy hitters. They will like the effect and see you as a credit to the team.

    Stay mobile as much as you can to put your allies between you and the enemy.

    Low levels suck for everyone.
    At level 5 your cantrips double in damage and you can twin cast buffs and debuffs.
    No one of else can Twin Haste or Flight for instance.

    Hang in there.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I stay behind so far as that's possible.



    In terms of cantrips, would I be better off with Fire Bolt over Ray of Frost?

    I'll take Scorching Ray when I get a chance.


    I'm not really a fan of Phantasmal Force. I've had it before and it's one of those spells that either sits on my spell list gathering dust or else just ends up being a really crap damage spell because the monster in question largely ignores the illusion.

    Suggestion is a good idea though.
    Hmmm, if you are still going for that Ice caster feel, stick with Ray of Frost. A d8 damage dice is perfectly fine, and it has a neat rider. It won't be as optimized as firebolt, but it is perfectly serviceable.

    And responding to an earlier post, any cantrip that gives your target a Con save should be avoided at all costs. I have played a Yuan-Ti before which automatically gets Poison Spray. It does a nice d12 damage...and gives targets a con save. I have played the character from levels 1 to 7, and yet to hit anything with it due to the con save. Frostbite and Poison Spray are rendered useless because everything you could face has a great con save.

    And finally, sounds like your DM doesn't know how Phantasmal Force works. If you can make it an unavoidable illusion, and they fail their save, they physically can't just ignore it. I hate DMs who fail to read the "They totally believe the illusion and rationalize any inconsistencies with the illusion" part of Phantasmal Force.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    At level 3 Shadow Sorcerers get an incredibly powerful boost via Eyes of the Dark. That is the ability to spend 2 Sorcery Points to cast Darkness and get, what amounts to as, Devil's Sight. You can dump mage armor/shield and stay further back in your dark bubble. Many of the spells in XGtE are not the greatest but many have already suggested the usual Sorcerer spells/cantrips to get you to the next spell casting level. Some spells like Magic Missile don't cause the highest damage at low levels but have no saving throw. Remember that few characters can destroy a mob on one attack. Sorcerers are no different.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    No you still take 18 other levels of Sorcerer. But it's really hard to justify not taking two levels of Warlock as a Sorcerer. You get so much DPR and additional metamagic use.
    way more consistent DPR yes. way more metamagic use... no. you don't. not unless you are constantly taking short rests way more than expected, anyways.

    you have to count your 2 SP from having 2 sorcerer levels (there goes one short rest worth of SP) and the SP you could've gotten from converting your additional spells that you lost by taking warlock levels to get an actual correct idea of how much more metamagic you would get, and when you factor that in, it is frequently 0, i think there is one level where it is a positive number, and several where it is a negative number. multiclassing into warlock has benefits. more metamagic is typically not one of them.





    @ OP: now then, sorcerer requires a completely different mindset from warlock. the warlock is a very consistent spellcaster. you always have eldritch blast to fall back on, your spell slots come back on a short rest and are always the same level, you likely even have some at-will invocations you can use as needed. sorcerer is not like that. sorcerer is all about finding the right time to spend resources to make a big change, and the rest of the time you need to just accept that you're not going to have the consistent impact you might wish to have.

    so, the first thing with sorcerer, have an idea what you want to do. you've got a theme, which is nice, but what you really need is a better grasp on what role you want to fill. then you need to choose your metamagic accordingly (if you want to be good in social encounters, choose subtle, for example). then, once you have your metamagic figured out, only then do you choose spells, because that is the only thing in the entire class worth a damned thing. the rest of the class was gutted so that sorcerers could play with metamagic and nobody else can, so you absolutely must make the most of your metamagic, otherwise you're just a really crappy wizard with fewer spells per day, fewer interesting class abilities, fewer spells known, and fewer spells on your spell list. which means, it isn't too surprising you're having a hard time with sorcerer. sorcerer is not an easy class to use.

    so anyways, you have quicken and twin. looking at your spell list, apart from cantrips the only thing that works with twin is chromatic orb, and quicken is both expensive and unimpressive at your current level if you use it to get an extra cantrip out. this is likely a major source of your frustration. so, first order of business: ask yourself what you want to do. do you want to be a controller? a nuker? (i'm not convinced a full focus on nuking is great for any spellcaster, but if that's what you want to do you'll need to work with it). do you want to try and buff party members and bring utility? whatever your desired role is, understand that it isn't an exclusive thing. you will need to focus your metamagic picks and spells on your primary role, but being a nuker doesn't mean you can't know counterspell to provide protection from enemy spellcasters or haste to turn the rogue into a murder machine.

    you've been given some interesting suggestions, but really, first order of business absolutely must start with what you want to do. from there you can explore your options (like "will your DM allow you to rebuild your character from the ground up so that you can have the cantrips, spells, and metamagic options you want?)

    once you've got that figured out, your next step is to start looking for spells that fit your metamagic (either your original choices if your DM is not allowing you to change them, or whatever you prefer if the DM is allowing the change. just to re-emphasize, metamagic is what makes or breaks a sorcerer, so make sure you've got ways to use it, and use it well.

    some general tips for various metamagic:

    subtle: allows you to get away with magic shenanigans in a variety of situations; when you're in a silence spell, when you're underwater, when you're tied up, when you're in front of a king who has guards that could one-shot you, when you're facing an enemy spellcaster that could counterspell you (they have to see the spell being cast to counter it, and if you're not moving your hands or mouth, how are they seeing you spellcast?)

    quicken: so many people obsess over this, but they forget to ask an important question: what am i going to do with my regular action. it can't be casting a spell other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action, which at this point pretty much means dealing 1d8 damage for you, so what else is it going to be used for? something like disengage or dodge actions would be better, but best of all is to find a spell which requires an action to control it (which is *not* the same thing as casting a spell). for example, if you have sunbeam active, you can use an action to blast people... but that isn't the "cast a spell" action, it's a special action. same with the dragon breath spell that was suggested to you, as i recall. so that would mean that you can do things like, say, quickened fireball on a target with your bonus action and then sunbeam with your regular action on the same turn. so look for spells that you can use with an action to get the most out of quicken.

    careful: depending on whether your DM listens to jeremy crawford or not, careful may or may not allow you to create zones of perpetual crowd control that do not hinder your allies. for example, a careful web might allow you to designate all your melee party members to be able to always make saves against it, which means it never entangles them ever. however, if your DM does listen to jeremy crawford, then careful only works on the initial round, which still leaves it somewhat useful for spells like fear or hypnotic pattern. the main thing is to look for spells where a successful saving throw does absolutely nothing; taking half damage from a fireball probably is not worth it (on the other hand, eventually some party members may gain evasion or similar effects which will allow them to take no damage on a successful save against a fireball, at which point careful spell may become worth combining with that). don't think of it for damage spells; most of the spells you want to use careful on will be crowd control.

    twin: look for high-impact spells that are restricted to single targets because of how high impact they are. suggestion is a great example; choose two enemies, tell them to run, and if they fail their save they run off for up to 8 hours (but you'll probably want your concentration back before then). at your current level, hold person is normally single target as well, though at later levels it can be used on multiple targets, so that's a reasonable suggestion (so long as you don't upcast it). later on, you may consider spells like disintegrate, enlarge*, haste**, improved invisibility, and polymorph (which is an absurdly overpowered buff when you first get it and can turn party members into giant apes for an hour, giving them an entire extra HP bar to spend and substantial damage boosts most likely).

    extend: i would not recommend this for a single classed sorcerer unless they're a divine soul. theoretically, you'd be looking for spells with a mid-range duration (4 hours or 8 hours, for example. maybe even 10 minutes if you're in a dungeon or for some healing spells). currently, sorcerers don't have those kinds of spells on their list (but clerics do, which is why it's good for divine souls). i will add that there is one niche for extend that isn't often noticed: you can get a lot more damage out of delayed blast fireball if you have time to charge it up. that won't come up until level 13 at the earliest though, so i'd leave that for later.

    empower: if you want to nuke as your primary focus, take it. otherwise, you really shouldn't.

    reach: i wouldn't take it with the sorcerer spell list. you don't need range that desperately, most of the spells you'd like to use it on technically don't have a range, and you don't have enough touch spells for it to be worth it, imo. YMMV.


    * enlarge is not just for the damage boost, it's so that your party members can grapple bigger targets, push heavier objects, etc. you can also use reduce to allow party members to squeeze through gaps sized for tiny creatures, or to walk comfortably in areas sized for small; personally, i'd rather have -1d4 damage per hit than be subject to the squeezing rules, though not everyone will agree with that. note that you should be able to enlarge your friend and reduce an enemy if you twin it, which means your (formerly) medium warrior can grapple a (formerly) gargantuan monster

    ** everyone seems to think haste is the best thing since sliced bread. i'm not that impressed with it generally, but you do have a rogue which means it can be a lot more powerful if the rogue does not otherwise have a means to gain reaction attacks, and if you're gonna cast it you probably may as well twin it. the way to use it on the rogue is to have the rogue make a regular attack action using the haste action. it disallows the extra attack feature, but rogues don't have that anyways. this will also be sufficient to trigger two weapon fighting or crossbow expert bonus action attacks, for the record. you then use your regular non-haste action to ready an attack. the key here is that sneak attack is once per turn, not once per round; as soon as you end your turn, someone else's turn starts, which means your rogue can now use sneak attack again. it also does have the advantage that haste is likely to never be useless; you may be facing an enemy where none of your spells are great, but where you need to make a good impact, and in that situation, well... haste is probably one of your best options, even if that's only because your other options are super bad.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Just remember your metamagic is your biggest resource.

    Quicken is great, but it isn't what you think. Maximizing your usage of quicken is all about improving your (non spell) action, since you still can't cast two spells in a round. Multiclassing with warlock or paladin will fix this problem, but obviously that's only good if you built for it m You can also use a concentration spell that gives you powerful things to do with your action, but... Yeah not a lot of good option at this level.

    Twin is all about powerful low level single target buffs and debuffs. As others have said, phantasmal force is awesome, although DMs get all prissy about it. My favorite usage is 'character is locked in a steel sphere filled with acid.' if the DM says 'he is not blind/restrained' just note that regardless, he cannot see you, and therefore everyone has advantage against him. Other good ones include enlarge/reduce, blindness/deafness, enhance ability, and invisibility. At fifth level there's haste and slow.

    Remember that you shouldn't pick too many spells that you don't want to keep.

    Remember, too, that sorcerers are an extreme Nova class. They can easily blow through all their resources in a single encounter. So you will not be a major force in all encounters, just the ones where you use resources.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    "My scores are:
    Str 12
    Dex 14
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Wis 14
    Cha 18
    (Probably the best scores I've ever rolled. I only wish I could make use of them. )

    My other party members are:
    - A half-orc Barbarian
    - A halfling Ranger
    - A tabaxi Rogue
    - A human Paladin
    (Not sure about subclesses offhand.)
    "

    As the only full caster in the party, you offer a lot to the group. You might consider Haste if you want to buff the party some. Those are really good stats, btw. Don't be afraid to do more in the rp-department outside of combat, esp. for things involving Intelligence, which no one else in the party is likely to have as high as you do. With high Charisma, you're also most likely the party's face, so even if you can't shine in combat, you can be the party's representative in interacting with npcs.

    As far as cantrips, I still recommend Acid Splash as DEX is a better save to have foes roll against than Concentration. Fire Bolt will be your long range option as is a good cantrip to have.

    Later on (post lv. 5) you can mc into warlock for 2 levels. The armor proficiency will help overcome the need for Mage Armor as you have so few known spells as a sorc. If you do, Eldritch Blast will work really well with Quicken.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    I think they missed a good opportunity to make the sorceror cool here. Quicken as it stands is only good for multiclass builds like Sorcadin.

    When I explain it doesn't bypass the limit you can actually see the player get disappointed and decide to roll a different class.

    They needed to make metamagic more powerful and balanced it somewhere else if it was going to be the class's core concept.
    They needed to make Quicken more expensive (and remove the stupid spell casting limit that EVERYONE HATES)

    Then give Sorcerers more actual features!

    Since overall, Metamagics are pretty good... but they are kinda of like Warlock Invocations
    A secondary-ish feature that doesn't inherently define you

    While the features that do define you like... Dragon and Wild, are pretty disappointingly lackluster compared to Wizard options.
    Basically I'm saying they probably felt Metamagic would be so broken, that they nerfed the crap out of Sorcerer...
    but Metamagic ended up being just kinda of okay, so the nerfs weren't justified.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    I think most of the metamagic options are just fine, but often so niche... double the amount you get at every level and you’d have some real versatility despite the small spell list

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Chill Touch is actually quite good - decent range, a damage type (necrotic) that almost nothing resists and a secondary effect (target can't heal) that can be useful against regenerating creatures. Firebolt is a more popular choice because it does a d10 of damage instead of d8, but fire (along with poison) are the two most commonly resisted damage types.

    Level 3 is not a level at which you're going to feel super-powerful. You have very few sorcery points and your cantrips are still doing single-dice damage. They won't go up to doing 2 dice of damage until level 5.

    One thing you don't mention is using Darkness. As a shadow sorcerer, you can cast Darkness using sorcery points and, when you do, you can see in that darkness, even though no one else can (unless they have Devil's sight, which almost nothing does). That will make you an unseen attacker in combat, giving you advantage on every attack roll the enemies, who cannot see you, will have disadvantage on attack rolls against you. This tactic is your go-to approach for most combats (at least the combats nontrivial enough to warrant spending sorcery points) and will greatly increase your damage output, not to mention reducing your damage taken.

    You'll get a major boost in power output when you hit level 5 and you cantrips go to 2 hit dice, and another big boost at level 6 when you can summon the Hound of Ill Omen.
    Last edited by Strangways; 2017-12-29 at 11:40 PM.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I apologise if I come across as shutting everyone down. You're right - I am frustrated with my character choice. However, you'll forgive me if advice like 'take warlock levels instead' or 'take a feat that lets you take warlock spells' hasn't exactly sold me on the sorcerer or its ability to not suck.
    I know that I said take from my advice what you will, but I'm a little bit disappointed that you specifically chose to address only the one small portion of my suggestions that you don't want to do. Warlock was the most intuitive suggestion for magic initiate because it runs on charisma and has Toll The Dead. That's not the kind of feat that requires you to think too deeply into the fluff behind it - you're not turning into a warlock.

    All of your spells, if you noticed, realistically speaking, can only target 1 creature at a time and they are all-or-nothing effects. So it makes sense that if you don't have a decent degree of success, you will be bummed out!
    Look into some AoE effects - Thunderwave, Burning Hands, Web, Pyrotechnics even! Even if your enemies succeed in the save they usually get a partial effect or partial damage

    From there, you can take some commonly useful metamagic that goes with AoE but require minimal spell points (because you should want a many as possible for Darkness) - Careful Spell, Empowered spell ...

    Also, I'm sure you liked sleep, but you'll likely have an easier time casting suggestion to tell someone to fall asleep, because I'm sorry to say it's not a spell that remains effective beyond 1st level.
    Last edited by Prince Zahn; 2017-12-30 at 04:27 AM.
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    Hmmm, if you are still going for that Ice caster feel, stick with Ray of Frost. A d8 damage dice is perfectly fine, and it has a neat rider. It won't be as optimized as firebolt, but it is perfectly serviceable.
    Well, I actually wanted a more vampire-y/necrotic feel. However, this was blown out of the water somewhat when I found that Vampiric Touch wasn't on the sorcerer spell list.

    Ice seemed like the closest I could get, but I'd welcome any better possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    And responding to an earlier post, any cantrip that gives your target a Con save should be avoided at all costs. I have played a Yuan-Ti before which automatically gets Poison Spray. It does a nice d12 damage...and gives targets a con save. I have played the character from levels 1 to 7, and yet to hit anything with it due to the con save. Frostbite and Poison Spray are rendered useless because everything you could face has a great con save.
    I might ask my DM if he'll let me swap out Frostbite.

    Honestly, I keep forgetting that cantrips can't be swapped at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrast View Post
    Out of interest did you play levels 1 and 2 or start straight at 3rd? Little surprised to hear you say sleep has been useless as by third it will be losing some of its oomph but whenever I've played its basically been as instant 'win the encounter' button for the first few levels.
    We started at lv1 but I didn't start with Sleep - that was something I took at a later level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    I know that I said take from my advice what you will, but I'm a little bit disappointed that you specifically chose to address only the one small portion of my suggestions that you don't want to do. Warlock was the most intuitive suggestion for magic initiate because it runs on charisma and has Toll The Dead. That's not the kind of feat that requires you to think too deeply into the fluff behind it - you're not turning into a warlock.
    It's less about the fluff and more about it being disheartening to be told that the best way to be a good sorcerer is to pinch spells or levels from other, better classes.

    If nothing else, it just seems to confirm the idea that I shouldn't have picked Sorcerer to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    All of your spells, if you noticed, realistically speaking, can only target 1 creature at a time and they are all-or-nothing effects. So it makes sense that if you don't have a decent degree of success, you will be bummed out!
    Look into some AoE effects - Thunderwave, Burning Hands, Web, Pyrotechnics even! Even if your enemies succeed in the save they usually get a partial effect or partial damage

    From there, you can take some commonly useful metamagic that goes with AoE but require minimal spell points (because you should want a many as possible for Darkness) - Careful Spell, Empowered spell ...

    Also, I'm sure you liked sleep, but you'll likely have an easier time casting suggestion to tell someone to fall asleep, because I'm sorry to say it's not a spell that remains effective beyond 1st level.
    Okay, that's all useful. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    @ OP: now then, sorcerer requires a completely different mindset from warlock. the warlock is a very consistent spellcaster. you always have eldritch blast to fall back on, your spell slots come back on a short rest and are always the same level, you likely even have some at-will invocations you can use as needed. sorcerer is not like that. sorcerer is all about finding the right time to spend resources to make a big change, and the rest of the time you need to just accept that you're not going to have the consistent impact you might wish to have.
    That's helpful to know. I wish I'd seen that before I picked a sorcerer.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    so, the first thing with sorcerer, have an idea what you want to do. you've got a theme, which is nice, but what you really need is a better grasp on what role you want to fill. then you need to choose your metamagic accordingly (if you want to be good in social encounters, choose subtle, for example). then, once you have your metamagic figured out, only then do you choose spells, because that is the only thing in the entire class worth a damned thing. the rest of the class was gutted so that sorcerers could play with metamagic and nobody else can, so you absolutely must make the most of your metamagic, otherwise you're just a really crappy wizard with fewer spells per day, fewer interesting class abilities, fewer spells known, and fewer spells on your spell list. which means, it isn't too surprising you're having a hard time with sorcerer. sorcerer is not an easy class to use.
    Also useful to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    so anyways, you have quicken and twin. looking at your spell list, apart from cantrips the only thing that works with twin is chromatic orb, and quicken is both expensive and unimpressive at your current level if you use it to get an extra cantrip out. this is likely a major source of your frustration. so, first order of business: ask yourself what you want to do. do you want to be a controller? a nuker? (i'm not convinced a full focus on nuking is great for any spellcaster, but if that's what you want to do you'll need to work with it). do you want to try and buff party members and bring utility? whatever your desired role is, understand that it isn't an exclusive thing. you will need to focus your metamagic picks and spells on your primary role, but being a nuker doesn't mean you can't know counterspell to provide protection from enemy spellcasters or haste to turn the rogue into a murder machine.

    you've been given some interesting suggestions, but really, first order of business absolutely must start with what you want to do. from there you can explore your options (like "will your DM allow you to rebuild your character from the ground up so that you can have the cantrips, spells, and metamagic options you want?)

    once you've got that figured out, your next step is to start looking for spells that fit your metamagic (either your original choices if your DM is not allowing you to change them, or whatever you prefer if the DM is allowing the change. just to re-emphasize, metamagic is what makes or breaks a sorcerer, so make sure you've got ways to use it, and use it well.
    Well, I'm the only full caster in the party, so maybe I should focus on utility (or other stuff that the mundane classes can't do)?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    some general tips for various metamagic:

    subtle: allows you to get away with magic shenanigans in a variety of situations; when you're in a silence spell, when you're underwater, when you're tied up, when you're in front of a king who has guards that could one-shot you, when you're facing an enemy spellcaster that could counterspell you (they have to see the spell being cast to counter it, and if you're not moving your hands or mouth, how are they seeing you spellcast?)

    quicken: so many people obsess over this, but they forget to ask an important question: what am i going to do with my regular action. it can't be casting a spell other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action, which at this point pretty much means dealing 1d8 damage for you, so what else is it going to be used for? something like disengage or dodge actions would be better, but best of all is to find a spell which requires an action to control it (which is *not* the same thing as casting a spell). for example, if you have sunbeam active, you can use an action to blast people... but that isn't the "cast a spell" action, it's a special action. same with the dragon breath spell that was suggested to you, as i recall. so that would mean that you can do things like, say, quickened fireball on a target with your bonus action and then sunbeam with your regular action on the same turn. so look for spells that you can use with an action to get the most out of quicken.

    careful: depending on whether your DM listens to jeremy crawford or not, careful may or may not allow you to create zones of perpetual crowd control that do not hinder your allies. for example, a careful web might allow you to designate all your melee party members to be able to always make saves against it, which means it never entangles them ever. however, if your DM does listen to jeremy crawford, then careful only works on the initial round, which still leaves it somewhat useful for spells like fear or hypnotic pattern. the main thing is to look for spells where a successful saving throw does absolutely nothing; taking half damage from a fireball probably is not worth it (on the other hand, eventually some party members may gain evasion or similar effects which will allow them to take no damage on a successful save against a fireball, at which point careful spell may become worth combining with that). don't think of it for damage spells; most of the spells you want to use careful on will be crowd control.

    twin: look for high-impact spells that are restricted to single targets because of how high impact they are. suggestion is a great example; choose two enemies, tell them to run, and if they fail their save they run off for up to 8 hours (but you'll probably want your concentration back before then). at your current level, hold person is normally single target as well, though at later levels it can be used on multiple targets, so that's a reasonable suggestion (so long as you don't upcast it). later on, you may consider spells like disintegrate, enlarge*, haste**, improved invisibility, and polymorph (which is an absurdly overpowered buff when you first get it and can turn party members into giant apes for an hour, giving them an entire extra HP bar to spend and substantial damage boosts most likely).

    extend: i would not recommend this for a single classed sorcerer unless they're a divine soul. theoretically, you'd be looking for spells with a mid-range duration (4 hours or 8 hours, for example. maybe even 10 minutes if you're in a dungeon or for some healing spells). currently, sorcerers don't have those kinds of spells on their list (but clerics do, which is why it's good for divine souls). i will add that there is one niche for extend that isn't often noticed: you can get a lot more damage out of delayed blast fireball if you have time to charge it up. that won't come up until level 13 at the earliest though, so i'd leave that for later.

    empower: if you want to nuke as your primary focus, take it. otherwise, you really shouldn't.

    reach: i wouldn't take it with the sorcerer spell list. you don't need range that desperately, most of the spells you'd like to use it on technically don't have a range, and you don't have enough touch spells for it to be worth it, imo. YMMV.
    Thanks for that guide. I wish I'd seen it before I picked my metamagic.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Twin is all about powerful low level single target buffs and debuffs. As others have said, phantasmal force is awesome, although DMs get all prissy about it. My favorite usage is 'character is locked in a steel sphere filled with acid.' if the DM says 'he is not blind/restrained' just note that regardless, he cannot see you, and therefore everyone has advantage against him.
    Wow, that's nasty. Yeah, if I take Phantasmal Force with this (or another) character, I'll have to remember that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Remember, too, that sorcerers are an extreme Nova class. They can easily blow through all their resources in a single encounter. So you will not be a major force in all encounters, just the ones where you use resources.
    Hmm, that's pretty much the antithesis of my mindset when playing a caster.

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    As the only full caster in the party, you offer a lot to the group. You might consider Haste if you want to buff the party some. Those are really good stats, btw. Don't be afraid to do more in the rp-department outside of combat, esp. for things involving Intelligence, which no one else in the party is likely to have as high as you do. With high Charisma, you're also most likely the party's face, so even if you can't shine in combat, you can be the party's representative in interacting with npcs.
    Well, as I said, the out-of-combat stuff with this character is fine (though, I'm rarely our representative for various reasons). It's the combat that's a pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strangways View Post
    One thing you don't mention is using Darkness. As a shadow sorcerer, you can cast Darkness using sorcery points and, when you do, you can see in that darkness, even though no one else can (unless they have Devil's sight, which almost nothing does). That will make you an unseen attacker in combat, giving you advantage on every attack roll the enemies, who cannot see you, will have disadvantage on attack rolls against you. This tactic is your go-to approach for most combats (at least the combats nontrivial enough to warrant spending sorcery points) and will greatly increase your damage output, not to mention reducing your damage taken.
    That's a good point. I guess it just seems like a waste at the moment - since my attacks are pretty crap even when they do hit (hence, Advantage doesn't mean a whole lot).

    Also, you say that it should be my go-to approach for combats, but how? I have 3 sorcery points and it takes 2 of them just to cast Darkness. So if I want to use it more than once per day, I have to start burning spell slots to get more spell points. Is that really a good idea? Especially when I need to use those spells to inflict any meaningful damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    A level 3 Sorc should try to check all of the following items:

    1. Has a ranged attack cantrip (Firebolt is best)
    2. Has a melee attack cantrip (Shocking Grasp is best, GFB if going gish)
    3. Spells are as defensive as possible
    4. Almost all spells do not require concentration

    If I were a L3 Sorc, I'd take Mage Armor and Shield as two of my four spells (because a Sorc knows a number of spells equal to their level plus one).

    The remaining two spells are a toss up, but I'd never take an attack spell. You simply don't have enough spell slots to play a blaster yet. Mirror Image, Invisibility, Suggestion, or Phantasmal Force are all good picks.

    Your metamagic choices are also expensive. You can't Quicken a spell round after round at level 3, and there's very few things you can do with a quickened spell at that level. Meanwhile, Twin Spell is best used on buffs because you're liable to miss attacks or the targets pass their saves (since you have such a low DC). But it is also very expensive.

    You just have to focus on defensive play here. If you feel like your spells aren't helping, don't forget you can use the Help action to grant advantage.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Last time I played a Sorcerer my spells at 3 were Disguise Self, Fog Cloud, Invisibility, Suggestion

    You don't need to shine in combat to be a useful member of the team

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Just try to enjoy the character and have fun with it. You choose very few damage spells, so that's why you are feeling bad in combat, pick whatever and have fun with it, there's nothing to compete for.
    English isn't my first language, so I will likely express myself poorly.
    Please assume that I'm arguing in good faith, and that I mean no offense to anybody.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Twin your cantrips. One sorc point to do double damage in any encounter with 2+ creatures left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    (because a Sorc knows a number of spells equal to their level plus one).
    But at lv. 17 and beyond, the maximum number of spells a sorc knows is 6 cantrips and 15 leveled spells (16 for Divine Soul and the UA version of Favored Soul). You get a new spell known per level up to lv. 11, then it drops down to one extra spell for every 2 levels beyond that, capping at lv. 17, which is imo the worst thing about sorcerers. The only way to overcome this with via multiclassing. Magic Initiate can also help to partially alleviate this. (I would recommend going sorc if you want attack cantrips and taking either Mage Armor or Shield for your lv. 1 spell.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    But at lv. 17 and beyond, the maximum number of spells a sorc knows is 6 cantrips and 15 leveled spells (16 for Divine Soul and the UA version of Favored Soul). You get a new spell known per level up to lv. 11, then it drops down to one extra spell for every 2 levels beyond that, capping at lv. 17, which is imo the worst thing about sorcerers. The only way to overcome this with via multiclassing. Magic Initiate can also help to partially alleviate this. (I would recommend going sorc if you want attack cantrips and taking either Mage Armor or Shield for your lv. 1 spell.)
    I was simplifying. Up to level 10, the Sorc's spells known is their spell level plus one, which applies to the OP. At higher levels, they know less spells.

    Personally, I like that the Sorcs don't have an expanded spell list. Spell preparation is a big pain, creativity is brought about by restrictions/spontaneity, too much freedom just invites overthinking. The Sorc is supposed to be specialized in one thing anyway, and they're very good at that one thing they decide to specialize in.

    Honestly, the only thing I dislike about Sorcs is the low HD. They didn't go to magic school like Wizards, so they should have gotten at least a d8 like Bards and Warlocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    I was simplifying. Up to level 10, the Sorc's spells known is their spell level plus one, which applies to the OP. At higher levels, they know less spells.

    Personally, I like that the Sorcs don't have an expanded spell list. Spell preparation is a big pain, creativity is brought about by restrictions/spontaneity, too much freedom just invites overthinking. The Sorc is supposed to be specialized in one thing anyway, and they're very good at that one thing they decide to specialize in.

    Honestly, the only thing I dislike about Sorcs is the low HD. They didn't go to magic school like Wizards, so they should have gotten at least a d8 like Bards and Warlocks.
    Yeah, the low hp really sucks. I'm at lv. 5 and don't get my first ASI/feat until next level (Divine Soul 3 / Hexblade 2) and only have 32 hp. :(
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    Just try to enjoy the character and have fun with it.
    If I was having fun with it, I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    You choose very few damage spells, so that's why you are feeling bad in combat
    Half my cantrips are damage spells, along with half my spells known. Am I supposed to take nothing but damage spells to be worthwhile?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    pick whatever and have fun with it
    I did 'pick whatever'. It did not result in fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    there's nothing to compete for.
    Perhaps not, but being a dead-weight in combat doesn't make for a fun experience either.
    “Plot” is what the DM does to amuse himself when the players aren’t talking.
    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Sorry to disappoint everyone, but Dragon's Breath can't be twinned as per Jeremy Crawford. I know I was disappointed.
    https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...72988983062528

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    For what it's worth, I like the flexibility in chromatic orb, since you can change the damage depending on your enemy. I have to say though, at low levels non-warlock spellcasters struggle a little more, due to recovery time from spending their resources, and having fewer resources to spend. It gets better over time, but it does test the patience and groups some times, especially when everyone is used to hearing stories of the game warping things sorcerers and wizards do later in game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zejety View Post
    Sorry to disappoint everyone, but Dragon's Breath can't be twinned as per Jeremy Crawford. I know I was disappointed.
    https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...72988983062528
    But he allows Ice Knife to be twinned. If the casting of Dragon's Breath affects a single target in the form of a creature who gains the breath attack, then why can't it be twinned if the breath attack is a separate action? His ruling makes very little sense. :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    But he allows Ice Knife to be twinned. If the casting of Dragon's Breath affects a single target in the form of a creature who gains the breath attack, then why can't it be twinned if the breath attack is a separate action? His ruling makes very little sense. :/
    Not to derail the thread, but I hadn't seen that ruling before and googling brought up this consistent ruling: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/11...-on-ice-knife/
    Do you have a link on him saying it's twinnable?

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    If you feel like you are not contributing to the party enough to have fun, imagine how that poor Halfling Ranger feels...

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    The halfling ranger is probably putting out three attacks in a turn for 5d6+9 damage. Nothing weak about rangers in these early levels..
    Last edited by Jack Bitters; 2017-12-30 at 06:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zejety View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but I hadn't seen that ruling before and googling brought up this consistent ruling: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/11...-on-ice-knife/
    Do you have a link on him saying it's twinnable?
    Unless that was an old ruling you found. Last I heard, IK CAN be twinned because the initial attack hits a single target and the burst is a secondardy effect, but as the INITIAL target is a single creature, it was twinable. It sounds like he likely changed his mind on the ruling at some point. :(
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Unless that was an old ruling you found. Last I heard, IK CAN be twinned because the initial attack hits a single target and the burst is a secondardy effect, but as the INITIAL target is a single creature, it was twinable. It sounds like he likely changed his mind on the ruling at some point. :(
    Originally it was that Twin needed the word Target in it

    These days its become 'affect'

    Which causes people to insult Craw by saying then by his logic Haste is no longer twinnable. Since the extra attacks can 'affect' others...

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