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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Since I could not guess, let me just ask: what do you want your sorcerer to do? Sorcerers can be great at one or two things, but you have to know exactly what those things are before you put pen to paper.

    Depending on what you're looking for, asking your DM to let you rebuild the character may be in order. But maybe not.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by brainface View Post
    I think you just need to heavily favor spells with attack rolls, and keep darkness up on yourself as much as possible. Chill Touch isn't the most exciting cantrip, but chill touch with advantage every round is probably going to hit. Twinned Chromatic Orbs with advantage are probably fun. (And probably eats all your spell points, but meh.)

    That is, you have a very reliable (if resource expensive) source of advantage to attack, use it like it's going out of style. ^^
    He's right. As a shadow sorcerer, you have two additional metamagics: shadow doggo and darkness. Darkness allows for efficient attack rolls, doggo is good with saving throws.

    Darkness is a big boost to damage and defense, even if all you do is cover yourself.

    Remember, never cast darkness. Use a bonus action to convert a second level slot to sp, and then use that sp to cast darkness.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2018-01-02 at 11:53 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    I've not been on the player side a lot this edition, but I have a Cleric 1 (Life) - Sorcerer 3 (Divine Soul from XGtE) and it's going pretty well so far in terms of planning.

    I dipped 1 in Life Cleric to sustain my healing part a lot, and I've been taking all the level 1 from Cleric before focusing on the sorcerer aspect. I am slowed by 1 level in spell progression overall, but I'm doing fairly well.

    This is the only character I've been playing, and it does what it's supposed to do quite well. It heals... it buffs (thanks to Twinned Spell from sorcerer, you can make great use of the action economy potential... and if you want to be a face just grab subtle spell).

    As for the spells available, I don't have to tell you more about the vast amount of benefits having 1 level dip in Cleric (Life) Brings in 5 spells to the level 1 list (thus covering all my needs basically), and letting me enjoy the Sorcerer spells a bit more at higher levels (planning ahead is key).

    The sorcerer strives in term of action economy. Twinned Spell is so good on a support (Twinning a Healing Word is clutch mini-burst heal).

    Sorcerers don't tend to suck. They're designed towards accomplishing powerful deeds, while Wizard have way more versatility.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Devil

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Phantasmal Force was originally a spell used to scare enemies away. What it used to do was summon an illusory army, and presumably the opposing side will flee. That's why it's called a phantasmal (ie, illusory) force (ie, army).

    You can still do that with Phantasmal Force. But since the spell has changed a lot, you can use it for other things now, too. You can't restrain, but you can block line of sight, drown out sounds, instill confusion, manipulate targets into doing your will, protect your allies, and of course, scare your enemies into surrender/retreat.
    So could I use it to make the target think that I and the other players are its allies and its REAL allies are us so it attacks them instead?
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    So could I use it to make the target think that I and the other players are its allies and its REAL allies are us so it attacks them instead?
    Where in the spell description gives you this idea?

    EDIT: Obviously, you're taking my words "manipulate them into doing your will" and running with it. Obviously, the answer is no. And obviously, the fact that you can't literally make its allies into its enemies does not make Phantasmal Force a useless damage spell.

    Much less obviously, you can trick the target into defecting, joining your side, by presenting him with evidence that would make him abandon his original team. How you do that is entirely dependent on your imagination and knowledge of your enemies.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2018-01-02 at 01:22 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    So could I use it to make the target think that I and the other players are its allies and its REAL allies are us so it attacks them instead?
    That is suggestion, not phantasmal force.

    Phantasmal Force creates something new that tries to make the target believes it is happening.

    Suggestion disrupt cognitive dissonance of the target to reorganize a certain idea or thought process for the duration.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    That is suggestion, not phantasmal force.

    Phantasmal Force creates something new that tries to make the target believes it is happening.

    Suggestion disrupt cognitive dissonance of the target to reorganize a certain idea or thought process for the duration.
    So since PF has no useful applications, I should choose a different spell. That sucks. :(

    I guess I'll have to go with either Web or see if my DM will let me take Flaming Sphere so I have a spell that will both have a decent chance to hit by avoiding targeting Wisdom as PF is a useless spell.
    Last edited by samcifer; 2018-01-02 at 01:25 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    LeonBH's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    So since PF has no useful applications, I should choose a different spell. That sucks. :(
    Not really, PF is better than Suggestion, though both are top tier spells among the 2nd level spells.

    Suggestion is limited by the requirement that the suggestion must be reasonable and not self-harming, among other limitations. PF is not.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2018-01-02 at 01:24 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    So since PF has no useful applications, I should choose a different spell. That sucks. :(

    Phantasmal Force has lot of useful applications.

    It's just a level 2 spell. You have to work within the power level of the spell you are reading.

    Suggestion is level 3. See the pattern.

    I had a bard which used Phantasmal Force in plenty of different fashion (both in Social encounters and Combat, while outside of these two also), it's hilarious. Just use your imagination and be sure that it works within the limits of the spell.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    Suggestion is level 3. See the pattern.
    Minor correction. Suggestion is level 2.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Minor correction. Suggestion is level 2.
    But it targets Wisdom, which means it will have little chance to hit. :(
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! ™"

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    But it targets Wisdom, which means it will have little chance to hit. :(
    Yep, and just another reason why PF is the stronger spell. Int save proficiency is far less common.

    EDIT: Though Suggestion is also incredibly strong despite the Wis save. Used properly, it can replicate Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, Friends, Tasha's Hideous Laughter...
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2018-01-02 at 01:30 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    But it targets Wisdom, which means it will have little chance to hit. :(
    Everything has little chance to hit if the target makes the saving throw.

    That's the point of letting dice decides the outcome of things.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Yep, and just another reason why PF is the stronger spell. Int save proficiency is far less common.
    Don't give him everything right away.

    You were right for Suggestion being level 2, I still have the old level of the spell in mind. The effect is still, to me, stronger in effect then Phantasmal Force in terms of reality warping, but both are potent. If I intended to make someone who tricks with people's mind, I'd take both (Phantasmal Force is more disruptive on the short term while Suggestion can make the long game so efficient).

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Yep, and just another reason why PF is the stronger spell. Int save proficiency is far less common.

    EDIT: Though Suggestion is also incredibly strong despite the Wis save. Used properly, it can replicate Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, Friends, Tasha's Hideous Laughter...
    But again, PF is a useless spell for me because nothing I think of as a use for it would work. Because of my lack of creativity in regards to it (apparently) I have no choice but to stick to a blaster approach to spellcasting my taking spells that damage, defend, heal or remove status effects. Any head-games spells are beyond my ability to use as a player because they make no sense to me on how they're supposed to be useful. :(

    Sorry to come off as a jerk or that I'm flinging an enraged serpent, but I clearly don't get mind magick spells at all and no idea I have for using them works, making them useless to me.
    Last edited by samcifer; 2018-01-02 at 01:34 PM.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    But again, PF is a useless spell for me because nothing I think of as a use for it would work. Because of my lack of creativity in regards to it (apparently) I have no choice but to stick to a blaster approach to spellcasting my taking spells that damage, defend, heal or remove status effects. Any head-games spells are beyond my ability to use as a player because they make no sense to me on how they're supposed to be useful. :(
    Phantasmal Force is useless if you don't think of something that will do anything different if the target believes what you described.

    Phantasmal Force is pretty efficient if you know what you want it to achieve (believe that you are in a darkness... simple and he loses sight).

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    Phantasmal Force is more disruptive on the short term while Suggestion can make the long game so efficient.
    That's actually opposite my experience. PF changes the long term direction of the campaign because it's "traceless" in that the belief stays with the target even after the spell's duration expires and they don't know they were under an illusion (assuming you didn't kill the target). They can continue to believe for months if they didn't break free from the spell in the first minute.

    Suggestion works only for 8 hours so it's shorter term. It's great for instant mind control but once the duration expires, you've lost your lackey and must re-cast the spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    But again, PF is a useless spell for me because nothing I think of as a use for it would work. Because of my lack of creativity in regards to it (apparently) I have no choice but to stick to a blaster approach to spellcasting my taking spells that damage, defend, heal or remove status effects. Any head-games spells are beyond my ability to use as a player because they make no sense to me on how they're supposed to be useful. :(

    Sorry to come off as a jerk or that I'm flinging an enraged serpent, but I clearly don't get mind magick spells at all and no idea I have for using them works, making them useless to me.
    Ah, I got the wrong vibe. Sorry, I misunderstood you. I think using PF efficiently requires a certain amount of Evil to be present in the player as well. Just because you can't be afraid to think outside the box and potentially entertain thoughts that are certainly not in the neighborhood of Good.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2018-01-02 at 02:06 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Suggestion is limited by the requirement that the suggestion must be reasonable and not self-harming, among other limitations. PF is not.
    Perhaps, but at least Suggestion can't be overridden by the target moving his arms or taking a couple of steps forward.
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    That's actually opposite my experience. PF changes the long term direction of the campaign because it's "traceless" in that the belief stays with the target even after the spell's duration expires and they don't know they were under an illusion (assuming you didn't kill the target). They can continue to believe for months if they didn't break free from the spell in the first minute.

    Suggestion works only for 8 hours so it's shorter term. It's great for instant mind control but once the duration expires, you've lost your lackey and must re-cast the spell.
    That is hilarious and proves that both spells are useful. In the end, it's all up to the player to make it work (the DM has to buy it basically). I've been a GM for 90 % of my gaming time so far and I'm always amazed how creative players can be sometimes.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Thread is starting to get offtrack, but Phantasmal Force reminds me of genjutsu from Naruto anime/manga, albeit with less success, more chances to break it.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Perhaps, but at least Suggestion can't be overridden by the target moving his arms or taking a couple of steps forward.
    Not all illusions by PF can be overridden by waving your arms or taking a couple steps forward. Only a subset.

    For example, if your illusion has no stationary walls, there is nothing to touch that is wall like.

    Even a simple illusion of "make his underwear give off a thick and steady column of black smoke" will bypass that "restriction" because your arms naturally pass through smoke, while blocking line of sight.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Lol @ phantasmal force discussion. Phantasmal Force is, RAW, garbage. Phantasmal Force is, depending on DM, amazing. Basically the rules for what illusions actually govern are intentionally open ended. A strict interpretation makes the spell garbage. A more lax interpretation makes it the best 2nd level spell in the game. In short, YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT, depending on WHO is DMing. In my limited experience, the average DM gives you a decent amount of play with Phantasmal Force over a normal illusion, since it is more of a mind altering effect than a "true" illusion. If you're looking to debuff, you can do a lot with it depending on circumstance.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    i the long long ago (2E) i had a gnome illusionist and this was one of my go to spells need to intimidate? burning tendrils of fire slowly creep up on the target , need some breathing room in a fight oh look i just summoned a hellhound need to cover an escape? bamm pillar of fire very useful spell. in this edition and all previous editions illusion spells require a willing dm as they are very, how do i say it? subjective to interpretation. the whole school of magic was designed around the rule of cool so if you or your dm dont have imaginations (which would be strange given the topic) or the dm seriously metas against you they are just meh spells

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by danpit2991 View Post
    i the long long ago (2E) i had a gnome illusionist and this was one of my go to spells need to intimidate? burning tendrils of fire slowly creep up on the target , need some breathing room in a fight oh look i just summoned a hellhound need to cover an escape? bamm pillar of fire very useful spell. in this edition and all previous editions illusion spells require a willing dm as they are very, how do i say it? subjective to interpretation. the whole school of magic was designed around the rule of cool so if you or your dm dont have imaginations (which would be strange given the topic) or the dm seriously metas against you they are just meh spells
    The meta part is so true. I love toying with my players, as they love to toy with my various encounters. Suggestion is my bread'n'butter and you have to describe what you want to do precisely in some sort as a player. I had no trouble registering an enemy who doesn't see me with Suggestion so far.

    An enemy can flee reliably with Suggestion also.

    I like to Twin it (Divine Soul Sorcerer are so good at making annoynig things really annoying) and have two targets receive the same ''The other guy has betrayed you''. If one of them fails, they'll attack each other and be distracted for at least 1 round, often the whole combat.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    phantasmal force is super situational. i have never been in the situation (super generous DM) where it is amazing, and i have plenty of times been in the situation where the DM pretty much shuts down most illusions that don't have clearly defined effects.

    for many of the uses you could have for phantasmal force (most of which involves the target being unable to interact with it), other spells work just fine, ime.

    and, just to be clear, phantasmal force does not make the target believe anything about the illusion other than that it is really there. it can convince them that there's a guy standing over there dressed in robes and carrying a staff. it cannot convince you that it is khelben blackstaff (but if it looks like khelben blackstaff and you know what khelben blackstaff looks like, "that is khelben blackstaff" is certainly a reasonable assumption. if you don't know what khelben blackstaff looks like a bluff check is probably in order. if you know what khelben blackstaff looks like, and this illusion is not what he looks like, expect some suspicion... not necessarily that there is an illusion, they could just as easily believe the guy is an imposter, or that you are lying about who they are).

    likewise, it cannot persuade anyone that the illusion is the king of anywhere, though it could certainly look like the king. but the target is under no obligation to believe that the (illusion of a) guy in a corner over there is the king, merely that the guy is genuinely there.

    so unless your DM is going to be rather permissive about what the spell can do (and i've never met the DM who is), i find it generally to be very underwhelming.

    (as to the specific use of hiding inside an illusion of a small walled area... 10x10x10 should be plenty big enough for the stereotypical group of 4 adventurers. admittedly, it will not work if you are in a group of 10, unless perhaps you use the squeezing rules and most of you are already small).

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    If you're a medieval bartender working at a fantasy bar, and a hooded figure reveals himself to you as the King, and you recognize the voice, the face, and the insignia, will you:

    1. Disobey?
    2. Obey?

    Generally, the answer is (2), because he's the King and you don't question the King's actions.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    If you're a medieval bartender working at a fantasy bar, and a hooded figure reveals himself to you as the King, and you recognize the voice, the face, and the insignia, will you:

    1. Disobey?
    2. Obey?

    Generally, the answer is (2), because he's the King and you don't question the King's actions.
    if you're a medieval bartender, why do you recognize the king's voice, face, and insignia? are you also the king's personal friend or something? does the king frequent your bar under normal circumstances? odds are good you've only heard him shouting from a distance at best, seen his face from a hundred feet away at best (so basically you haven't seen his face), and have no particular reason to recognize his insignia because the king doesn't need to send official diplomatic documentation to him. and all that presume he actually has ever seen the king or heard his voice under any circumstances, which may not be the case. go figure, the bartender doesn't get invited to royal balls terribly often.

    add on that for some reason, the king is apparently so broke that he has to ask for freebies when he's apparently gone to extreme lengths to avoid drawing attention to himself by announcing his presence, and also you just cast a spell while in the room (which probably drew some attention from others around him), and you don't have any of the stuff marking you as the king's servant, and the king disappears 60 seconds later... that's a whole heck of a lot of failure points. you'd best be making a bluff check because if that bartender really thinks about the situation, he's gonna figure out that *something* isn't right. now he'll still believe the guy is there, but that he's the king? maybe, maybe not.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Are you suggesting the medieval bartender doesn't know who is his King?

    Brilliant, then he has no business doubting someone who can even possibly remotely be the King, because the King has gold and guards and the bartender does not.

    Add to that, the King can just take away the bartender's bar by force if he so wished, because that's within the rights of a King, who owns all of the land he rules over. Perks of feudalism.

    There is no issue making bluff checks for it. Nothing automatically succeeds beyond what the DM allows. But once the bartender believes you are associated with the King, you control that bartender from that moment onwards.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2018-01-02 at 10:50 PM.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    i am suggesting that the bartender doesn't necessarily know his king by sight, or by voice, and certainly has no particularly compelling reason to presume that some random guy in his bar is actually the king when he shows up with no guards, no attendants, no servants, etc.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Because you said "no reason" I feel like you are desperately trying to reject any notion of this particular trick succeeding.

    There are many reasons to believe the man is the King, and there are many reasons not to. The fact that he can be believed means it is the opposite of "no reason."

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