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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Because you said "no reason" I feel like you are desperately trying to reject any notion of this particular trick succeeding.

    There are many reasons to believe the man is the King, and there are many reasons not to. The fact that he can be believed means it is the opposite of "no reason."
    uh-huh.

    lots of reasons to believe some random schmuck is the king, huh?

    if you say so.

    do yourself a favour, don't open any emails from nigerian princes.

    also, don't buy the brooklyn bridge. it's not really for sale.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    uh-huh.

    lots of reasons to believe some random schmuck is the king, huh?

    if you say so.

    do yourself a favour, don't open any emails from nigerian princes.

    also, don't buy the brooklyn bridge. it's not really for sale.
    Uh huh.

    You missed the memo that Phantasmal Force is a magical spell. And it creates an illusion you believe is real.

    (EDIT: And that the punishment for slighting the King is severe in medieval magic land, making it a very stupid choice to risk talking back to the King.)

    But if you want to insist it creates a random shmuck, less power to your players.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2018-01-03 at 12:32 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Uh huh.

    You missed the memo that Phantasmal Force is a magical spell. And it creates an illusion you believe is real.

    (EDIT: And that the punishment for slighting the King is severe in medieval magic land, making it a very stupid choice to risk talking back to the King.)

    But if you want to insist it creates a random shmuck, less power to your players.
    phantasmal force creates an illusion you believe is a real thing. nothing says you have to believe everything it says no matter how outlandish or absurd. nothing says you have to believe it is who it says it is. and since you've said the king is in diguise, and since the spell certainly doesn't have anywhere near enough AoE to include all the proper servants and guards and so forth, you're creating an absurdly unbelievable scenario. if the bartender legitimately thinks the real king just walked into the tavern in diguise, he might give out free beer. but more likely, that isn't the real king, it's just some moron pretending to be the king, and no, the bartender is not going to do whatever is asked because that scenario is laughably absurd.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Then you are saying the following things:

    1. The scenario can be made plausible by switching out the King and replacing him with something else, such that the scenario is no longer absurd
    2. It is plausible for the trick to work after all, once the scenario is no longer absurd

    If you had an issue with the King in disguise, then your players should not try that with you specifically. The point is PF forces the bartender to bend to your will via the illusion you present.

    I'm not sure if you're using this one example to deny all the illusions of PF, or if you're just denying this one scenario while allowing all the rest. In case it's the first, then you're nerfing an entire style of play and that's a problem your players have to put up with. If it's the second, I'm not really concerned with your specific ruling. PF isn't supposed to score you free drinks at a bar. The point is it can if you use it well.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Then you are saying the following things:

    1. The scenario can be made plausible by switching out the King and replacing him with something else, such that the scenario is no longer absurd
    2. It is plausible for the trick to work after all, once the scenario is no longer absurd

    If you had an issue with the King in disguise, then your players should not try that with you specifically. The point is PF forces the bartender to bend to your will via the illusion you present.

    I'm not sure if you're using this one example to deny all the illusions of PF, or if you're just denying this one scenario while allowing all the rest. In case it's the first, then you're nerfing an entire style of play and that's a problem your players have to put up with. If it's the second, I'm not really concerned with your specific ruling. PF isn't supposed to score you free drinks at a bar. The point is it can if you use it well.
    phantasmal force doesn't require anyone to bend to anyone's will. it creates an illusion of a visible phenomenon which the target believes is real. nothing forces the target to believe any random arbitrary facts related to that illusion, so you'd better make sure it's something reasonably plausible. in order for the target to believe that an avatar of a deity has shown up to smite it, rather than being an obvious fraud, it's going to need to have some context to believe that the deity in question gives enough of a crap to actually show up instead of doing whatever it is that gods normally do with their time, which for most gods will not involve personally showing up to smite mortals.

    and yes, hypothetically you could try the trick (or something like it) with something less obviously absurd. you could also try the bluff without an illusion, thereby saving a spell slot.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    exactly as Leon says the spell causes you to believe the illusion is real i admit a king trying to score free drinks is ludicrous but since the illusion is a construct of the targets mind and not any kind of visual effect its kind of combining a spell like suggestion and an illusion it is mind affecting magic so to use the ridiculous king in a bar scenario in a feudal setting believe it or not even the common people would have an idea of what the monarch looks like maybe not perfect knowledge but thats the beauty of the spell it makes the target believe that the illusion is true and any inconsistencies are taken care of by the targets own mind so while he might ask himself why is the king in my bar he will also answer the question for himself ie its not my business to question those better than me and its best i dont know. the scenario of king in a bar could easily be changed to mayor in a bar or anything the point is that the innkeep will believe because he has no choice.

    as for PFing a bag or box around someones head to blind them yes the box would move with them until they left the area of effect then their mind would make up some excuse as to why it came off and as for a wall of fire gues what people know magic exists fire is common in magic and most 6yold know not to touch fire especially because the target is forced to believe it is real



    EDIT**** and as for an avatar showing up to smite once again people know magic exists people know gods exist ergo it wouldnt be shocking that someone could summon assistance magically from said diety clerics do it daily
    Last edited by danpit2991; 2018-01-03 at 01:26 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    phantasmal force doesn't require anyone to bend to anyone's will. it creates an illusion of a visible phenomenon which the target believes is real. nothing forces the target to believe any random arbitrary facts related to that illusion, so you'd better make sure it's something reasonably plausible.
    And that is all a good imagination needs to bend targets to their will.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    in order for the target to believe that an avatar of a deity has shown up to smite it, rather than being an obvious fraud, it's going to need to have some context to believe that the deity in question gives enough of a crap to actually show up instead of doing whatever it is that gods normally do with their time, which for most gods will not involve personally showing up to smite mortals.
    PF makes the spell real, so you cannot assume it is a fraud as far as its existence is concerned.

    It's totally up to each person how they will react when a god appears before them to smite them. It sounds like your NPCs don't care about such tricks, and I'm getting the vibe you are inclined to bypass those illusions somehow. If so, less power to your players.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    and yes, hypothetically you could try the trick (or something like it) with something less obviously absurd. you could also try the bluff without an illusion, thereby saving a spell slot.
    Correct. And you can spend a spell slot to do it.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by danpit2991 View Post
    exactly as Leon says the spell causes you to believe the illusion is real i admit a king trying to score free drinks is ludicrous but since the illusion is a construct of the targets mind and not any kind of visual effect its kind of combining a spell like suggestion and an illusion it is mind affecting magic so to use the ridiculous king in a bar scenario in a feudal setting believe it or not even the common people would have an idea of what the monarch looks like maybe not perfect knowledge but thats the beauty of the spell it makes the target believe that the illusion is true and any inconsistencies are taken care of by the targets own mind so while he might ask himself why is the king in my bar he will also answer the question for himself ie its not my business to question those better than me and its best i dont know. the scenario of king in a bar could easily be changed to mayor in a bar or anything the point is that the innkeep will believe because he has no choice.

    as for PFing a bag or box around someones head to blind them yes the box would move with them until they left the area of effect then their mind would make up some excuse as to why it came off and as for a wall of fire gues what people know magic exists fire is common in magic and most 6yold know not to touch fire especially because the target is forced to believe it is real



    EDIT**** and as for an avatar showing up to smite once again people know magic exists people know gods exist ergo it wouldnt be shocking that someone could summon assistance magically from said diety clerics do it daily
    the spell makes you believe the illusion is a real thing. just because there's an illusion of "king so and so" doesn't mean that the target must believe that it legitimately is king so and so, as opposed to someone that looks like king so and so for any variety of reasons. they won't believe it's not there, but they can believe whatever else they want about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    PF makes the spell real, so you cannot assume it is a fraud as far as its existence is concerned.

    It's totally up to each person how they will react when a god appears before them to smite them. It sounds like your NPCs don't care about such tricks, and I'm getting the vibe you are inclined to bypass those illusions somehow. If so, less power to your players.



    Correct. And you can spend a spell slot to do it.
    PF makes the target believe the spell is a real thing. it doesn't make you believe that the thing over there is a real avatar of a god, it just makes you believe that the thing really is there. it could be some sort of puppet, a big creature disguised as the god, or whatever, but the thing is, unless corellon larethian makes a habit of traveling around the world smiting random small groups of orcs, you have created a scenario where "this thing is obviously something trying to trick me into believing it is correllon larethian" is more reasonable then "clearly corellon larethian has decided to show up and fight half a dozen orcs in the middle of nowhere".

    now, if you're in the main temple of corellon larethian that is currently being desecrated by orcs, it would be a bit more plausible that the avatar of corellon would show up. but again, nothing forces you to believe that the illusion is the real avatar of corellon larethian, it only requires you to believe that the thing really is there. it isn't a charm or a suggestion, it's an illusion.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Correct, you aren't forced to believe in something you see. Phantasmal Force only makes you see, not believe.

    This does not invalidate Phantasmal Force at all.

    Regarding your orc example, for the orcs to know correllon larethian does not go around smiting random things, they would have to know enough lore to know correllon larethian does not make that a habit. It's plausible they do know this lore, and it's plausible they don't.

    But how overt. Why would a creative illusionist want to spam the same illusion on different groups of orcs?

    It's totally up to the DM to validate or invalidate such illusions. You seem to be inclined to invalidate them.

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    Without wishing to derail the Phantasman Force discussion (), do you guys have any suggestions for higher levels?

    I'm thinking in terms of what 3rd/4th spells to get when I eventually reach that level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Without wishing to derail the Phantasman Force discussion (), do you guys have any suggestions for higher levels?

    I'm thinking in terms of what 3rd/4th spells to get when I eventually reach that level.
    Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Watery Sphere, Polymorph, Slow, Fear

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I look forward to eventually doing worthwhile damage when I'm lucky enough to crit.



    You say that, but even my non-Cantrip spells rarely even match their damage, let alone exceed it. Currently, it seems like I have to spend resources to be almost as good as they are.



    I see. Well, given that I already hate metamagic, I guess I'm in for a bad time with this class.



    The thing is, it seems like I don't have enough spell points for any metamagic. Especially if I'm also planning to use Darkness or the Shadow Wolf thing at lv6. If I use Darkness even once then I'm left with a single spell point to use on a metamagic ability. That doesn't seem like enough to want to build around. And if I want to use the lv6 Shadow Wolf ability more then once per day, that'll consume my entire daily allotment of spell points.



    She's a half-elf with 14 Dex and 18 Cha. I can give the crossbow a go, but having a significantly worse to-hit bonus makes me wary of it.



    Yeah, I get it. Sorcerers get better eventually. But that knowledge doesn't make the intervening levels and less tedious.



    Having never played a sorcerer before, I did exactly that.

    That was de facto precisely how I came to end up with this sodding mess of a character.



    Pretty much.

    To be honest, when I picked metamagic, I thought it was something that would only matter in later levels anyway. I mean, I've currently got barely any spell points to begin with (and casting Darkness uses up 2/3 of them), and from lv6 onwards I'd thought that most of them would be used to summon the Shadow Wolf (which would also stand in for Heighten Spell). I do regret not picking Subtle Spell, but all the guides I read basically marked it as pointless (making it seem like a rather bad choice for my first Sorcerer).



    That's good to know. I wish I'd read it before I made my character.



    Thanks for the input. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experienced this.



    Thinking about it, I think Debuffer and Controller would be the best fit for my character. Not sure which I'd want as my primary role - it might depend on their respective spell lists.

    Regarding my theme, Necrotic/vampire-y would be more accurate. I only went with ice because necrotic seemed rather underrepresented on the sorcerer spell list.



    I have a couple of questions:
    1) Is there a winner between Phantasmal Force and Suggestion, or should I aim to have both?
    2) Regarding Phantasmal Force, do you have any suggestions (hah!) for illusions that should keep enemies occupied?



    I'm afraid I don't follow you on this. Surely my character pledging their soul/servitude to a dark power or sentient weapon is far from a trivial decision?

    Anyway, I get it - Warlock would be a great addition to a sorcerer. If I'd known this earlier, I probably could have tweaked her backstory to have her start as one. However, as it stands, there's just no way she'd go through with something like this.
    There are more tropes to a pact than that of a servant-master or selling your soul. Being a Shadow Sorcerer allows to explore just that; You could for example make a pact with your very own Shadow (depending on your DM) and use it as a weapon; the terms of the pact would be to win against it in a fight/duel.

    Or perhaps a Vampire ancestor from the Shadowfell is your Patron, in the literal meaning; He teaches you Arcane Knowlage and provided you with an ancient Magical Weapon that belonged in your fammily for generations, and expects you to bring glory to the fammily's name in return.

    In any case, if you don't feel like it, it's ok. It's still a very good option IMO.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    @Sharforce and @LeonBH and others: guys, this discussion on Phantasmal Force is interesting, but it's really not the point of the thread. I'd argue that it would merit a dedicated thread. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Without wishing to derail the Phantasman Force discussion (), do you guys have any suggestions for higher levels?

    I'm thinking in terms of what 3rd/4th spells to get when I eventually reach that level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raif View Post
    Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Watery Sphere, Polymorph, Slow, Fear
    I plus all of these ones, especially Slow, Polymorph and Wall of Fire (but they are really all great spells, and Hypnotic Pattern can also be used as a mega-sleep for infiltration too IIRC).

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Without wishing to derail the Phantasman Force discussion (), do you guys have any suggestions for higher levels?

    I'm thinking in terms of what 3rd/4th spells to get when I eventually reach that level.
    Fireball, Haste, Fly, Polymorph and Banishment.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    If you don't want to suck as a sorcerer, make sure the spells you selected are worth your playstyle. You get to be one of the best casters in the game if you work around your strenghts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    Fireball, Haste, Fly, Polymorph and Banishment.
    I'd also point out that Polymorph can be used both offensively (by polymorphing opponents into mice) and defensively (by polymorphing your ally who's down to his last hit point into a T-Rex or similarly fearsome fighting machine). It's a highly useful and versatile spell, exactly the sort of thing that a sorcerer with his limited spell list should be looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strangways View Post
    I'd also point out that Polymorph can be used both offensively (by polymorphing opponents into mice) and defensively (by polymorphing your ally who's down to his last hit point into a T-Rex or similarly fearsome fighting machine). It's a highly useful and versatile spell, exactly the sort of thing that a sorcerer with his limited spell list should be looking for.
    If you intend to support your fellow players, you might as well go Divine Soul and grab some healing along the way. Polymorph used a way to grant temporary hps is subpar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    There are more tropes to a pact than that of a servant-master or selling your soul. Being a Shadow Sorcerer allows to explore just that; You could for example make a pact with your very own Shadow (depending on your DM) and use it as a weapon; the terms of the pact would be to win against it in a fight/duel.
    I'm a little confused about how that would work.

    Could you perhaps elaborate a little?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    Or perhaps a Vampire ancestor from the Shadowfell is your Patron, in the literal meaning; He teaches you Arcane Knowlage and provided you with an ancient Magical Weapon that belonged in your fammily for generations, and expects you to bring glory to the fammily's name in return.
    Without wishing to go into too much detail, my character would never make a pact with a vampire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    In any case, if you don't feel like it, it's ok. It's still a very good option IMO.
    Oh, I agree that it's a great option in terms of power. The issue is the RP aspect, with the whole pact thing really being out of character for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raif View Post
    Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Watery Sphere, Polymorph, Slow, Fear
    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    I plus all of these ones, especially Slow, Polymorph and Wall of Fire (but they are really all great spells, and Hypnotic Pattern can also be used as a mega-sleep for infiltration too IIRC).
    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    Fireball, Haste, Fly, Polymorph and Banishment.
    I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

    Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?
    Last edited by Dr. Cliché; 2018-01-03 at 10:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I'm a little confused about how that would work.

    Oh, I agree that it's a great option in terms of power. The issue is the RP aspect, with the whole pact thing really being out of character for me.

    I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

    Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?
    People are recommending good spells. Whether they're thematic is up to you as only you know what kind of theme you want.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?
    Honestly? Yes. Metamagic is the actual Sorcerer's subclass IMO, you have to pick spells that work well with what you chose. You also learn too few spells, so versatility is important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strangways View Post
    People are recommending good spells. Whether they're thematic is up to you as only you know what kind of theme you want.
    Well I've said my theme several times, but it's long since ceased to have any bearing on what spells people suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    Honestly? Yes. Metamagic is the actual Sorcerer's subclass IMO, you have to pick spells that work well with what you chose. You also learn too few spells, so versatility is important.
    Okay, that's useful to know. Kinda depressing, but useful to know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Well I've said my theme several times, but it's long since ceased to have any bearing on what spells people suggest.

    Okay, that's useful to know. Kinda depressing, but useful to know.
    The sorcerer spell list is just a subset of the wizard spell list. The only spell a sorcerer has access to that a wizard does not is the unimpressive level 1 spell Chaos Bolt. Conversely, there are far more spells on the wizard spell list than are on the sorcerer spell list. What separates a sorcerer from a wizard is primarily metamagic plus various sorcerer subclass features (like your ability to use sorc points to cast Darkness that doesn't affect your own vision). Spell for spell, your spells will hit harder than a wizards due to metamagic and other subclass abilities so that's your niche as a sorcerer - hit harder than a wizard, your spells do more damage than the equivalent spell cast by a wizard, your saving throws are more difficult to make, your spells are harder to counterspell etc. depending on what metamagic you choose and how you use it. Leave versatility (including really situational spells like Earthbind) to the wizards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

    Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?
    I don't think it's a fool's errand, necessarily. It's just that there are only so many spells for any particular theme that fit with a given play style. What you might want to do is think about having a couple spells being your "signature" powers that you use primarily which match your theme, with other spells being less thematic still being there to use. The other spells might be more fluffed to be in line with your core theme, as opposed to directly matching without re-fluffing.

    So, your theme was a vampire/necrotic sort of thing? Well, vampires are known for their mesmerizing/hypnotic abilities so Suggestion and Phantasmal Force are still in line with that. Haste could be re-fluffed to be that you are hypnotizing your allies into performing better (I've seen this used before but I can't find the source at the moment :( ). Blur could also be re-fluffed in that you are hypnotizing the enemies' perception as well.

    Misty Step and Gaseous Form are also in line with vampires turning to a mist form, with the ability to extend that power to others.

    If you've been having trouble with hitting enemies, due to bad luck on your rolls or their saves, you might want to have Magic Missile as a fall back. It doesn't scale in damage that well, but at least it's a guaranteed hit, and it can be split between a couple enemies. You can also re-fluff the appearance of the missiles as you'd like, so they could be arrows of darkness or something like that.

    My main point is, though, if a spell isn't immediately within your theme, a lot of times it can be re-fluffed to be.

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    Your metamagics are Quicken and Twin, so you need to capitalize on those with your spell selection moving forward.

    Quicken is good for gishes because they can cast a spell and make attacks in the same round. I don't think that's your thing. So you're better off using spells that require your action to manipulate. The Dominate X line of spells are good for this, though they're higher level than 3rd or 4th.

    Twin works with buffs and debuffs really well. Polymorph and Greater Invisibility are the two obvious choices.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2018-01-03 at 11:37 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strangways View Post
    The only spell a sorcerer has access to that a wizard does not is the unimpressive level 1 spell Chaos Bolt.
    The spells Enhance Ability, Daylight, Water Walk, Dominate Beast, Insect Plague, Fire Storm, and Earthquake are also not on the Wizard spell list.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I'm a little confused about how that would work.

    Could you perhaps elaborate a little?

    I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

    Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?
    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    Honestly? Yes. Metamagic is the actual Sorcerer's subclass IMO, you have to pick spells that work well with what you chose. You also learn too few spells, so versatility is important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Well I've said my theme several times, but it's long since ceased to have any bearing on what spells people suggest.



    Okay, that's useful to know. Kinda depressing, but useful to know.
    Err. Honestly? There is a good amount of truth in what Daphne said, but it's still exaggerated. The other factors are...

    1. Me and probably others totally forgot about your theme as the discussion advanced. XD
    2. Your themes are honestly not well covered in the first place in spells in general (from what I remember fire > lightning > radiant > poison ~= cold > acid > necrotic ~= force ~= psychic, to put it crudely). Necrotic is especially rare in Sorcerer spell list: even the "reasonably good for thematic" Vampiric Touch is on Warlock side, but no Sorcerer). Ray of Sickness is nice for a 1st level spell but gets old quick.

    For necrotic and cold, only things I can think at a glance are Stinking Cloud (poison ~= necrotic because death in common, right? no?), Chromatic Orb (cold), Cloudkill and Cone of Cold, Disintegrate (refluff as flesh rotting extra fast) and Finger of Death.
    But really to get a real variety in necrotic spells the only reasonable options from what I recall are Wizard and Bard (because poach), or maybe Death Cleric.

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    And conversely, because of your limited spell selection, you need to choose spells that can be used in a multitude of situations.

    And remember that you can only concentrate on one spell at a time (barring twinning... :P). So when you choose your spells, think long and hard about which concentration spells you will actually use. Sorcerors get a lot of good concentration spells, but if you're always going to be using Haste in a combat situation (You're a supporter), then even though you may like Hypnotic Pattern, the odds of you using it are going to be pretty slim. Are those infrequent occasions really worth it taking up valuable spell selection space? Probably not.

    Which is why I said, you NEED to know what kind of Sorceror subtype you plan on being. Otherwise you can get stuck with all the wrong spells and your gameplay will suck.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strangways View Post
    The sorcerer spell list is just a subset of the wizard spell list. The only spell a sorcerer has access to that a wizard does not is the unimpressive level 1 spell Chaos Bolt. Conversely, there are far more spells on the wizard spell list than are on the sorcerer spell list. What separates a sorcerer from a wizard is primarily metamagic plus various sorcerer subclass features (like your ability to use sorc points to cast Darkness that doesn't affect your own vision). Spell for spell, your spells will hit harder than a wizards due to metamagic and other subclass abilities so that's your niche as a sorcerer - hit harder than a wizard, your spells do more damage than the equivalent spell cast by a wizard, your saving throws are more difficult to make, your spells are harder to counterspell etc. depending on what metamagic you choose and how you use it. Leave versatility (including really situational spells like Earthbind) to the wizards.
    Your last sentence has me rather confused. I thought people wanted me to take spells like Polymorph specifically for their versatility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    I don't think it's a fool's errand, necessarily. It's just that there are only so many spells for any particular theme that fit with a given play style. What you might want to do is think about having a couple spells being your "signature" powers that you use primarily which match your theme, with other spells being less thematic still being there to use. The other spells might be more fluffed to be in line with your core theme, as opposed to directly matching without re-fluffing.
    That's not a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    So, your theme was a vampire/necrotic sort of thing? Well, vampires are known for their mesmerizing/hypnotic abilities so Suggestion and Phantasmal Force are still in line with that. Haste could be re-fluffed to be that you are hypnotizing your allies into performing better (I've seen this used before but I can't find the source at the moment :( ). Blur could also be re-fluffed in that you are hypnotizing the enemies' perception as well.

    Misty Step and Gaseous Form are also in line with vampires turning to a mist form, with the ability to extend that power to others.
    Most of those are fair, but I think the Haste one is stretching it a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    My main point is, though, if a spell isn't immediately within your theme, a lot of times it can be re-fluffed to be.
    I agree with you to an extent, but I think it's also going to be hard to get the flavour across.

    For example, how does a 'vampiric misty step' differ from a 'regular misty step'?

    Or, in the case of Polymorph, I could only use it to turn myself or others into 'creatures of the night', but then that will reduce its versatility a fair bit. Or if I just use it to turn people into whatever is most useful (favouring creatures of the night in the rare instances when they are tied with others for 'most useful form'), then the flavour will be lost.


    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Err. Honestly? There is a good amount of truth in what Daphne said, but it's still exaggerated. The other factors are...

    1. Me and probably others totally forgot about your theme as the discussion advanced. XD
    No worries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    2. Your themes are honestly not well covered in the first place in spells in general (from what I remember fire > lightning > radiant > poison ~= cold > acid > necrotic ~= force ~= psychic, to put it crudely). Necrotic is especially rare in Sorcerer spell list: even the "reasonably good for thematic" Vampiric Touch is on Warlock side, but no Sorcerer). Ray of Sickness is nice for a 1st level spell but gets old quick.
    Yeah, when I picked sorcerer as my class, I'd completely forgotten that Vampiric Touch wasn't on their spell list.


    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    For necrotic and cold, only things I can think at a glance are Stinking Cloud (poison ~= necrotic because death in common, right? no?), Chromatic Orb (cold), Cloudkill and Cone of Cold, Disintegrate (refluff as flesh rotting extra fast) and Finger of Death.
    But really to get a real variety in necrotic spells the only reasonable options from what I recall are Wizard and Bard (because poach), or maybe Death Cleric.
    To be honest, I think the ice/cold theme was a mistake to begin with. I only went with it because, as you say, Necrotic spells are so rare.

    I think a more vampiric theme could work (as Temperjoke suggested, stuff like Suggestion, Misty Step are in-theme, and Polymorph could maybe work to represent shapeshifting).

    However, as above, I think the difficulty is going to be how I actually represent my theme so that it doesn't just come across as a random collection of spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by GorogIrongut View Post
    And conversely, because of your limited spell selection, you need to choose spells that can be used in a multitude of situations.

    And remember that you can only concentrate on one spell at a time (barring twinning... :P). So when you choose your spells, think long and hard about which concentration spells you will actually use. Sorcerors get a lot of good concentration spells, but if you're always going to be using Haste in a combat situation (You're a supporter), then even though you may like Hypnotic Pattern, the odds of you using it are going to be pretty slim. Are those infrequent occasions really worth it taking up valuable spell selection space? Probably not.

    Which is why I said, you NEED to know what kind of Sorceror subtype you plan on being. Otherwise you can get stuck with all the wrong spells and your gameplay will suck.
    Well, the one archetype I really *don't* want to be is a buffer. I'm sure they can be good, but I never ever enjoy playing as them.
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Your last sentence has me rather confused. I thought people wanted me to take spells like Polymorph specifically for their versatility?
    What I mean by leaving versatility to the wizards is that wizards can prepare obscure, highly situational spells like Earthbind for particular situations, then swap them out the next day for something else when they're no longer needed. Since the sorcerer's spells are fixed, the sorcerer needs to concentrate on spells that will be useful in a wide range of situations, and leave the highly situational spells to the wizards.

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