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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post


    I agree with you to an extent, but I think it's also going to be hard to get the flavour across.

    For example, how does a 'vampiric misty step' differ from a 'regular misty step'?

    Or, in the case of Polymorph, I could only use it to turn myself or others into 'creatures of the night', but then that will reduce its versatility a fair bit. Or if I just use it to turn people into whatever is most useful (favouring creatures of the night in the rare instances when they are tied with others for 'most useful form'), then the flavour will be lost.
    Well, it's a matter of how you describe it. Normal Misty Step you teleport in a cloud of mist, but describing it as vampire-themed could be that you transform into a humanoid mist cloud that breaks apart and reforms in the spot you are teleporting to. On Polymorph, it also depends on how frequently you would use it. One thing I've noticed about Polymorph, regardless of how versatile I've seen it described, people tend to stick to the same shapes more often than not, plus transforming others shouldn't necessarily be a go-to for regular use, since they won't be able to use their class abilities while transformed (except for certain cases). It's more of an option rather than a go-to, at least in my experience.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

    Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?
    I think if your theme is 'necrotic and cold damage' then yeah you're out of luck.

    But if your theme is an aesthetic thing, then that's pretty doable.

    For example, you said you wanted a cold/necrotic/shadow sorcerer.

    Ask your DM to refluff hold person and slow as 'freezing' your enemy in place.
    Phantasmal Force is a way to inflict visions of the shadowfell upon your targets. You are used to those terrors, but they will drive your opponents mad.
    Mage armor is a actually a layer of iron-hard black ice that grows underneath your clothing.
    Polymorph? Refluff the T-Rex you're turning into as some kind of eldritch-looking shadow beast. (like a lesser version of your capstone)

    Seriously, you can even rename them for your character's purposes. As far as your character is concerned, it isn't "Hold Person" it's "Halt the Living." I've never met a DM that wouldn't let you do this, and it makes sorcerers like 500% better in my experience.

    But I can see not wanting, say, Buffing spells or spells that deal radiant damage. Here's a little list I came up with off the top of my head with the theme of mental manipulation.

    2nd:
    Phantasmal Force/Suggestion: Single Target disable on pretty much any target, lots of out of combat utility, and both synergize with Twin. Suggestion is better unless you have a permissive DM.
    Hold Person: If they fail their save, they will pretty much just die, since your allies auto-crit against them. This spell scales well if you cast it at a higher level, so it adds flexibility to your spell list. Synergy with Twin at low levels.

    3rd:
    Slow/Enemies Abound:Both are great spells for taking out heavy targets. Both have good synergy with Twin.
    Hypnotic Pattern: Refluff so that it's more like a vampire's hypnotic gaze. Great CC.
    Fly, Haste, Fireball, and Stinking Cloud are all great as well, but obviously they're off-theme for you.

    4th
    Banishment:absolutely devastating, bit high-level for twin, and maybe a little off-theme.
    Sickening Radiance: AOE Damage, reveals invisible creatures, and debuffs them.

    5th
    Synaptic Static: 8d6 psychic damage, and everyone in the radius deals with a INT save or suck. No concentration!

    6th
    Disintegrate: Twin this, summon the hound, and kill everything

    These spells synergize with twin and with the hound, but not so much with your darkness ability. That's fine, in my estimation. You won't have SP to use all of your abilities anyway. I would suggest that you ask if you can switch out Quicken for Subtle, though, since it's much better for what you're going for. (Quicken is best for melee Sorcerers, or for sorcerers who multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. Subtle is better for manipulators or debuffers. If you wanna be a blaster, Empower is really efficient at higher levels.)

    Be very careful with your powerful, single target Save-or-die spells. Use them in conjunction with Twin or the Doggo if possible. Hope and pray that your DM isn't fudging his monster's saving throws, and try to target an appropriate save. Orc Chief? Banishment (CHA). Ogre? Phantasmal Force (INT). Deadly mercenary? Hold Person (WIS).

    As the game goes on, your low-level concentration spells will compete with your higher-level ones, and your low-level damage spells will actually be worse than your cantrip for damage. Fortunately, you you can trade a spell every level, which let's you get spells that still pack a nice punch at high level. So Phantasmal Force for Misty Step, or Banishment for Dimension Door. Get rid of Chromatic orb and pick up shield or absorb elements. It's worth noting that some concentration spells, like suggestion, can be used outside of combat, so they don't neccesarily lose their value.

    Anyway. That's my take.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post

    4th
    Banishment:absolutely devastating, bit high-level for twin, and maybe a little off-theme.
    Sickening Radiance: AOE Damage, reveals invisible creatures, and debuffs them.

    5th
    Synaptic Static: 8d6 psychic damage, and everyone in the radius deals with a INT save or suck. No concentration!

    6th
    Disintegrate: Twin this, summon the hound, and kill everything

    These spells synergize with twin and with the hound, but not so much with your darkness ability. That's fine, in my estimation. You won't have SP to use all of your abilities anyway. I would suggest that you ask if you can switch out Quicken for Subtle, though, since it's much better for what you're going for. (Quicken is best for melee Sorcerers, or for sorcerers who multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. Subtle is better for manipulators or debuffers. If you wanna be a blaster, Empower is really efficient at higher levels.)
    Also note that you can upcast Banishment to hit multiple targets if you don't want to spend sorc points to Twin it or if you don't have the Twin metamagic.

    Sickening Radiance is awesome - a sickeningly powerful spell, particularly combined with some other spell (like a Druid's Entangle) that can hold targets within the area of effect.

    Synaptic Static aka "Psychic Fireball." A fantastic spell.

    Re "summon the hound," don't we all really want to say "release the hound!!!"?

    Overall, Xanathar's was quite good for Arcane Casters.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    There are important things to remember about Twin...
    1. It's expensive
    2. There's a whole host of errata removing a lot of sorceror spells that have the potential to target multiple targets from being twinned. This culls the small herd of sorceror spells to spells that are either single damage (i.e. you suffer from save or suck with the aforementioned expensive cost making those 'suck' moments horrible) or support spells like haste, etc. (where the OP has already said he has no desire to play a Supporter).
    3. Another important thing to remember about Twin though is that a lot of Sorceror spells already have an inbuilt 'twinning' effect that can ultimately be cheaper than using the metamagic. Spells like Blindness/Deafness, Flying, Banishment can be expanded to multiple targets just by upcasting.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    I think if your theme is 'necrotic and cold damage' then yeah you're out of luck.

    But if your theme is an aesthetic thing, then that's pretty doable.

    For example, you said you wanted a cold/necrotic/shadow sorcerer.

    Ask your DM to refluff hold person and slow as 'freezing' your enemy in place.
    Phantasmal Force is a way to inflict visions of the shadowfell upon your targets. You are used to those terrors, but they will drive your opponents mad.
    Mage armor is a actually a layer of iron-hard black ice that grows underneath your clothing.
    Polymorph? Refluff the T-Rex you're turning into as some kind of eldritch-looking shadow beast. (like a lesser version of your capstone)

    Seriously, you can even rename them for your character's purposes. As far as your character is concerned, it isn't "Hold Person" it's "Halt the Living." I've never met a DM that wouldn't let you do this, and it makes sorcerers like 500% better in my experience.

    But I can see not wanting, say, Buffing spells or spells that deal radiant damage. Here's a little list I came up with off the top of my head with the theme of mental manipulation.

    2nd:
    Phantasmal Force/Suggestion: Single Target disable on pretty much any target, lots of out of combat utility, and both synergize with Twin. Suggestion is better unless you have a permissive DM.
    Hold Person: If they fail their save, they will pretty much just die, since your allies auto-crit against them. This spell scales well if you cast it at a higher level, so it adds flexibility to your spell list. Synergy with Twin at low levels.

    3rd:
    Slow/Enemies Abound:Both are great spells for taking out heavy targets. Both have good synergy with Twin.
    Hypnotic Pattern: Refluff so that it's more like a vampire's hypnotic gaze. Great CC.
    Fly, Haste, Fireball, and Stinking Cloud are all great as well, but obviously they're off-theme for you.

    4th
    Banishment:absolutely devastating, bit high-level for twin, and maybe a little off-theme.
    Sickening Radiance: AOE Damage, reveals invisible creatures, and debuffs them.

    5th
    Synaptic Static: 8d6 psychic damage, and everyone in the radius deals with a INT save or suck. No concentration!

    6th
    Disintegrate: Twin this, summon the hound, and kill everything

    These spells synergize with twin and with the hound, but not so much with your darkness ability. That's fine, in my estimation. You won't have SP to use all of your abilities anyway. I would suggest that you ask if you can switch out Quicken for Subtle, though, since it's much better for what you're going for. (Quicken is best for melee Sorcerers, or for sorcerers who multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. Subtle is better for manipulators or debuffers. If you wanna be a blaster, Empower is really efficient at higher levels.)

    Be very careful with your powerful, single target Save-or-die spells. Use them in conjunction with Twin or the Doggo if possible. Hope and pray that your DM isn't fudging his monster's saving throws, and try to target an appropriate save. Orc Chief? Banishment (CHA). Ogre? Phantasmal Force (INT). Deadly mercenary? Hold Person (WIS).

    As the game goes on, your low-level concentration spells will compete with your higher-level ones, and your low-level damage spells will actually be worse than your cantrip for damage. Fortunately, you you can trade a spell every level, which let's you get spells that still pack a nice punch at high level. So Phantasmal Force for Misty Step, or Banishment for Dimension Door. Get rid of Chromatic orb and pick up shield or absorb elements. It's worth noting that some concentration spells, like suggestion, can be used outside of combat, so they don't neccesarily lose their value.

    Anyway. That's my take.
    Great suggestions on spells refluffs, and that's indeed the easiest way to go for you. I'd suggest you pick it OP. ;)

  6. - Top - End - #216
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    I think if your theme is 'necrotic and cold damage' then yeah you're out of luck.
    Well, my ideal theme would be a 'vampire' one.

    I simply said cold/necrotic because they initially seemed like the closest I'd get.

    I would like to have Enervation as one of my 4th level spells (I know it's not the strongest or most versatile, but it's about as 'vampiric' as I'm likely to get).

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Polymorph? Refluff the T-Rex you're turning into as some kind of eldritch-looking shadow beast. (like a lesser version of your capstone)
    I really like this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Seriously, you can even rename them for your character's purposes. As far as your character is concerned, it isn't "Hold Person" it's "Halt the Living." I've never met a DM that wouldn't let you do this, and it makes sorcerers like 500% better in my experience.
    That's an interesting idea. I'll see what my GM says.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    2nd:
    Phantasmal Force/Suggestion: Single Target disable on pretty much any target, lots of out of combat utility, and both synergize with Twin. Suggestion is better unless you have a permissive DM.
    Hold Person: If they fail their save, they will pretty much just die, since your allies auto-crit against them. This spell scales well if you cast it at a higher level, so it adds flexibility to your spell list. Synergy with Twin at low levels.
    If I wanted Misty Step, would you suggest swapping out one of the above for it, or swapping out a 1st level spell for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    3rd:
    Slow/Enemies Abound:Both are great spells for taking out heavy targets. Both have good synergy with Twin.
    Hypnotic Pattern: Refluff so that it's more like a vampire's hypnotic gaze. Great CC.
    Fly, Haste, Fireball, and Stinking Cloud are all great as well, but obviously they're off-theme for you.
    Well, Fly would probably be in-theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    4th
    Banishment:absolutely devastating, bit high-level for twin, and maybe a little off-theme.
    Sickening Radiance: AOE Damage, reveals invisible creatures, and debuffs them.
    I'm not sure about Sickening Radience (even refluffed, I think the effect is stretching it a bit). Would Polymorph work instead (hopefully refluffing it as you suggest above)?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    5th
    Synaptic Static: 8d6 psychic damage, and everyone in the radius deals with a INT save or suck. No concentration!

    6th
    Disintegrate: Twin this, summon the hound, and kill everything
    Heh, I got to try Synaptic Static in an unrelated one-off thing recently. It's a great spell.

    I haven't tried Disintegrate in 5e yet. I'll take your word that it's good.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    These spells synergize with twin and with the hound, but not so much with your darkness ability. That's fine, in my estimation. You won't have SP to use all of your abilities anyway. I would suggest that you ask if you can switch out Quicken for Subtle, though, since it's much better for what you're going for. (Quicken is best for melee Sorcerers, or for sorcerers who multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. Subtle is better for manipulators or debuffers. If you wanna be a blaster, Empower is really efficient at higher levels.)
    I can see what you mean with regard to swapping out Quicken. I guess I'd just seen it as being an 'emergency' metamagic (e.g. if I needed to cast a spell and disengage).

    Out of interest, if I swap out Quicken for Subtle Spell, which metamagic would you suggest I take at 10th level?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Be very careful with your powerful, single target Save-or-die spells. Use them in conjunction with Twin or the Doggo if possible. Hope and pray that your DM isn't fudging his monster's saving throws, and try to target an appropriate save. Orc Chief? Banishment (CHA). Ogre? Phantasmal Force (INT). Deadly mercenary? Hold Person (WIS).

    As the game goes on, your low-level concentration spells will compete with your higher-level ones, and your low-level damage spells will actually be worse than your cantrip for damage. Fortunately, you you can trade a spell every level, which let's you get spells that still pack a nice punch at high level. So Phantasmal Force for Misty Step, or Banishment for Dimension Door. Get rid of Chromatic orb and pick up shield or absorb elements. It's worth noting that some concentration spells, like suggestion, can be used outside of combat, so they don't neccesarily lose their value.
    Thanks, you've given a lot of really helpful advice and suggestions here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Surely there is no other reason why they would hire a charismatic and intelligent if scandalous infernal-blooded pretty boy to steal an high-ranking woman's clothes.
    “Plot” is what the DM does to amuse himself when the players aren’t talking.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post

    I hope you guys won't take this the wrong way (I really do appreciate your advice), but something I'm noticing is that sorcerer spells (or at least the good ones) seem entirely independent of any overarching theme or flavour.

    Am I to take it that looking for spells that fit a theme is a fool's errand?


    remember that you can flavor the spells however you want

    ie Burning hands- you shoot a stream or burning darkness form your hands its all in your mind how you want to do things as long as the crunch stays the same

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    strangebloke's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Well, my ideal theme would be a 'vampire' one.

    I simply said cold/necrotic because they initially seemed like the closest I'd get.

    I would like to have Enervation as one of my 4th level spells (I know it's not the strongest or most versatile, but it's about as 'vampiric' as I'm likely to get).
    Enervation is fine. It actually pairs well with quicken, in that it's a channeled spell. I'm not the sort to argue that every spell needs to be a great fit, and fourth level is sort of weak as far as options go anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    If I wanted Misty Step, would you suggest swapping out one of the above for it, or swapping out a 1st level spell for it?
    So, it all depends. Ultimately, your first level spells should be mage armor, shield, and/or absorb elements. You can easily do with only one of those, usually mage armor at low levels and shield at higher levels. Hold person is awesome at low levels, and you can upcast it which makes it a good sorcerer spell by definition. That said, you do need to use those second level slots for something and Suggestion retains its usefulness as an out-of-combat utility spell.

    In other words: IDK.

    In general, micromanaging your spells known list is going to be something you want to plan pretty carefully. Cut away those low-level damage spells, get rid of concentration spells that can only be used in combat (and can't be upcast efficiently) Also! Do NOT get too many high level spells. You can cast hold as a fifth level spell, but you can't cast disintegrate as a 2nd level spell. You will never have that many high level spell slots anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I'm not sure about Sickening Radiance (even refluffed, I think the effect is stretching it a bit). Would Polymorph work instead (hopefully refluffing it as you suggest above)?
    Polymorph is great! Wasn't sure if you'd be down since it's a buff, but here are some notes:
    If you use it on yourself and get hit, there's a decent chance that you'll lose the spell. That is bad. If you're going to be in melee at all, War Caster is a great feat.

    Twinning Poly is incredibly strong. It basically gives you a huge bucket of free health and a really strong channeled damage ability. Great for a last-ditch spell when you and the wizard are low on resources.

    Polymorph synergizes with Quicken/Subtle, since with all three, you can chomp with your action and cast at the same time. Not really efficient, but spellcasting t-rex shadow beast!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Heh, I got to try Synaptic Static in an unrelated one-off thing recently. It's a great spell.

    I haven't tried Disintegrate in 5e yet. I'll take your word that it's good.
    Disintegrate is very scary to use in that if the enemy saves... nothing happens. So twinning it is risky because you're essentially dumping 10 sp worth of spells into something that has a 25% chance of doing nothing. (Use it on creatures with low DEX saves, like a gelatinous cube) If there are two high-priority targets, it might be worth it, but in general with high level spells like this you are probably better off with Doggo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    I can see what you mean with regard to swapping out Quicken. I guess I'd just seen it as being an 'emergency' metamagic (e.g. if I needed to cast a spell and disengage).
    So, if you need to disengage like this, you can possibly use your darkness effect as an action and just walk away. You can also use misty step at equivalent cost and still have an action to spare.

    Using quicken to get a disengage/dodge/etc. off is perfectly valid though. Just don't use it to throw out a cantrip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Out of interest, if I swap out Quicken for Subtle Spell, which metamagic would you suggest I take at 10th level?
    Ah, you'll hate me for this, but quicken becomes a lot better by tenth level! Seriously, you get a lot of spells with channeled effects like enervation. Quicken lets you slap someone with a tentacle as an action and then throw down a fireball with a bonus action. That said, this is not good if you aren't using channeled effects all that often.

    Empower can be just plain awesome, depending on how many blasty spells you're using. It gets better with every level, too. If you're having trouble with friendly fire, careful does synergize well with things like hypnotic pattern. You already have heighten in the form of the doggo, and you basically have an additional metamagic in the form of the darkness, so you've really got your bases covered.

    That's the nice thing about Shadow Sorcerer. So many metamagic options! You don't have to be nearly as specialized as, say, a draconic sorcerer.

    Personally I would grab empower, since you have so many high-cost options as-is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Thanks, you've given a lot of really helpful advice and suggestions here.
    I really like sorcerers.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2018-01-03 at 09:20 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Polymorph is great! Wasn't sure if you'd be down since it's a buff, but here are some notes:
    If you use it on yourself and get hit, there's a decent chance that you'll lose the spell. That is bad. If you're going to be in melee at all, War Caster is a great feat.

    Twinning Poly is incredibly strong. It basically gives you a huge bucket of free health and a really strong channeled damage ability. Great for a last-ditch spell when you and the wizard are low on resources.

    Polymorph synergizes with Quicken/Subtle, since with all three, you can chomp with your action and cast at the same time. Not really efficient, but spellcasting t-rex shadow beast!
    You cannot cast as a beast, even with Subtle, because you lose your spellcasting ability while you're polymorphed. You do not even retain War Caster, unless the beast you morph into also has War Caster.

    It's a good buff on others. It's also a good debuff (turn enemies into actual worms for 1 hour as you monologue). But it's not a stellar self-buff except for when you need the temp HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Disintegrate is very scary to use in that if the enemy saves... nothing happens. So twinning it is risky because you're essentially dumping 10 sp worth of spells into something that has a 25% chance of doing nothing. (Use it on creatures with low DEX saves, like a gelatinous cube) If there are two high-priority targets, it might be worth it, but in general with high level spells like this you are probably better off with Doggo.
    Accurate, Twinned Disintegrate is generally a bad idea.

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    I'm currently toying with the Divine Sorcerer, and I must say that the potential to build something refined is quite niche but rewarding.

    The fact that you can straight out twin Sanctuary and Healing Word while providing Bless at level 3 (+ 2 level 2 spells ... )

    You have the basis of any support that is wanted. You can pave the way out and sustain yourself/allies.

    Regarding to a level 5 sorcerer

    1 : Healing Word, Sanctuary, Bless
    2 : Earthen Grasping Hand (or Spiritual Weapon), Panthasmal Force/Suggestion/Silence/Blindness-Deafness/EVEN Prayer of healing (something to debuff)
    3 : Counterspell - Haste

    The key is to pick what you want to define your sorcerer at level 2. Shatter is a good damage spell for efficient area (likely hit 2+ creatures).

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Enervation is fine. It actually pairs well with quicken, in that it's a channeled spell. I'm not the sort to argue that every spell needs to be a great fit, and fourth level is sort of weak as far as options go anyway.
    Do you think it's ever worth Twinning Enervation, or would that be wasting too many resources?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    So, it all depends. Ultimately, your first level spells should be mage armor, shield, and/or absorb elements. You can easily do with only one of those, usually mage armor at low levels and shield at higher levels. Hold person is awesome at low levels, and you can upcast it which makes it a good sorcerer spell by definition. That said, you do need to use those second level slots for something and Suggestion retains its usefulness as an out-of-combat utility spell.

    In other words: IDK.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    In general, micromanaging your spells known list is going to be something you want to plan pretty carefully. Cut away those low-level damage spells, get rid of concentration spells that can only be used in combat (and can't be upcast efficiently) Also! Do NOT get too many high level spells. You can cast hold as a fifth level spell, but you can't cast disintegrate as a 2nd level spell. You will never have that many high level spell slots anyway.
    Interesting. I actually remember hearing the opposite from someone a while back - they said that they basically scrapped all their low-level spells for higher-level ones, and then just turned their low-level spell slots into spell points.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Polymorph is great! Wasn't sure if you'd be down since it's a buff
    That's true, it is a buff. However, shapeshifting into animals is in-theme with vampires, so I'm prepared to give it a pass (especially if my DM allows me to re-fluff the animals).

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    but here are some notes:
    If you use it on yourself and get hit, there's a decent chance that you'll lose the spell. That is bad. If you're going to be in melee at all, War Caster is a great feat.

    Twinning Poly is incredibly strong. It basically gives you a huge bucket of free health and a really strong channeled damage ability. Great for a last-ditch spell when you and the wizard are low on resources.
    Good points there, though I'll come back to this at the end (since I've got a related question).

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Polymorph synergizes with Quicken/Subtle, since with all three, you can chomp with your action and cast at the same time. Not really efficient, but spellcasting t-rex shadow beast!
    Sadly, I don't think you can cast when Polymorphed, even with Subtle spell or such.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Disintegrate is very scary to use in that if the enemy saves... nothing happens. So twinning it is risky because you're essentially dumping 10 sp worth of spells into something that has a 25% chance of doing nothing. (Use it on creatures with low DEX saves, like a gelatinous cube) If there are two high-priority targets, it might be worth it, but in general with high level spells like this you are probably better off with Doggo.
    Okay, I'll bear that in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    So, if you need to disengage like this, you can possibly use your darkness effect as an action and just walk away. You can also use misty step at equivalent cost and still have an action to spare.

    Using quicken to get a disengage/dodge/etc. off is perfectly valid though. Just don't use it to throw out a cantrip.

    Ah, you'll hate me for this, but quicken becomes a lot better by tenth level! Seriously, you get a lot of spells with channeled effects like enervation. Quicken lets you slap someone with a tentacle as an action and then throw down a fireball with a bonus action. That said, this is not good if you aren't using channeled effects all that often.
    No, I get what you mean. From 10th level, I'll have more spell points to play with and also some spells that will (hopefully) synergise better with Quicken - like the aforementioned Enervation.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Empower can be just plain awesome, depending on how many blasty spells you're using. It gets better with every level, too. If you're having trouble with friendly fire, careful does synergize well with things like hypnotic pattern. You already have heighten in the form of the doggo, and you basically have an additional metamagic in the form of the darkness, so you've really got your bases covered.

    That's the nice thing about Shadow Sorcerer. So many metamagic options! You don't have to be nearly as specialized as, say, a draconic sorcerer.

    Personally I would grab empower, since you have so many high-cost options as-is.
    Interesting. Okay, I'll consider Empower as well. I'll probably wait and see how many damage spells I've got, and whether or not my role has changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    I really like sorcerers.



    Okay, so when I get to 4th level, I'm thinking that this will be my spell list:

    Cantrips:
    - Chill Touch
    - Minor Illusion
    - Prestidigitation
    - Frostbite
    - Booming Blade

    Lv1:
    - Mage Armour
    - Ice Knife

    Lv2:
    - Suggestion
    - Hold Person
    - Misty Step

    If my GM lets me change my metamagic, I'll have Twin and Subtle.

    Also, my stats are:
    Str 11
    Dex 14
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Wis 14
    Cha 18

    EDIT: My character also has the Mobile feat (we were allowed to pick a free feat at 1st level).

    First question: Does that spell list look reasonable?

    Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
    - +2 Dex?
    - +2 Cha?
    - A feat?
    Last edited by Dr. Cliché; 2018-01-04 at 06:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Surely there is no other reason why they would hire a charismatic and intelligent if scandalous infernal-blooded pretty boy to steal an high-ranking woman's clothes.
    “Plot” is what the DM does to amuse himself when the players aren’t talking.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post

    Okay, so when I get to 4th level, I'm thinking that this will be my spell list:

    Cantrips:
    - Chill Touch
    - Minor Illusion
    - Prestidigitation
    - Frostbite
    - Booming Blade

    Lv1:
    - Mage Armour
    - Ice Knife

    Lv2:
    - Suggestion
    - Hold Person
    - Misty Step

    If my GM lets me change my metamagic, I'll have Twin and Subtle.

    Also, my stats are:
    Str 11
    Dex 14
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Wis 14
    Cha 18


    First question: Does that spell list look reasonable?

    Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
    - +2 Dex?
    - +2 Cha?
    - A feat?

    Spell list looks great! Though what's the Booming Blade for? Planning on going into melee? Or for a "What if someone is too close" kind of thing? Otherwise I'd look at Ray of Frost and refluff it also.

    Very fitting for the theme you went. Sorry my earlier suggestions weren't' exactly theme appropriate but Sorcerer has that issue so you need to refluff.

    As for your ASI - definitely charisma, not dex. Dex, while good, will only increase your AC and initiative by 1, but your Charisma will do much more for you. It's much more important for you to have that at max.

    If you were to consider a feat I'd say Warcaster or Alert (makes sense with the "supernatural senses of vampires" trope).
    Last edited by Raif; 2018-01-04 at 06:30 AM.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
    - +2 Dex?
    - +2 Cha?
    - A feat?
    I would increase CHA to 20 before taking any feat or increasing DEX.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Okay, so when I get to 4th level, I'm thinking that this will be my spell list:

    Cantrips:
    - Chill Touch Love this cantrip.
    - Minor Illusion Another great Cantrip
    - Prestidigitation Can be very useful
    - Frostbite Fits your theme... but I'm not feeling it quite as much. I'd personally stick with Chill Touch, but that's just me.
    - Booming Blade Your character description so far hasn't come across as a gish, which is why I'm not sure why you selected this cantrip.
    Thunder doesn't fit your vampiric theme nor should your character be in combat often. I would swap for shocking grasp so you have a means of escaping combat


    I'd like to put in as an honourable mention Shape Water. It fits your cold theme. Would give you lots of utility around water. And all you have to do is get your hands on a jug of endless water and you've got readily made difficult terrain.

    Lv1:
    - Mage Armour Good
    - Ice Knife Also good. Very thematic. Later on though you'll want to swap it out.

    Lv2:
    - Suggestion All three of these are great... though one could argue that Suggestion can do a lot of things that Hold Person does and a LOT more. It's also just one save whereas HP saves every turn. Because of that, I would personally swap out Hold Person for one of the following:
    Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Levitate, Mirror Image or Web

    - Hold Person
    - Misty Step

    If my GM lets me change my metamagic, I'll have Twin and Subtle.

    Also, my stats are:
    Str 11
    Dex 14
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Wis 14
    Cha 18


    First question: Does that spell list look reasonable? Definitely good.

    Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
    - +2 Dex?
    - +2 Cha? I would argue that the sooner you get to Charisma 20, the better.
    - A feat?
    Comments included in bold.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raif View Post
    Spell list looks great! Though what's the Booming Blade for? Planning on going into melee? Or for a "What if someone is too close" kind of thing?
    Yeah, it's in case someone closes with me.

    Something I completely forgot to mention is that my character has the Mobile feat. We were allowed to pick a free feat at 1st level (could be anything that didn't increase an ability score). I know it's not very useful for a sorcerer, but it fitted my character's personality.

    Anyway, it means she can use Booming Blade to hit a creature and then walk away without risking an opportunity attack, while the creature will suffer damage if it tries to follow her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raif View Post
    Very fitting for the theme you went. Sorry my earlier suggestions weren't' exactly theme appropriate but Sorcerer has that issue so you need to refluff.
    No worries, advice is always welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raif View Post
    As for your ASI - definitely charisma, not dex. Dex, while good, will only increase your AC and initiative by 1, but your Charisma will do much more for you. It's much more important for you to have that at max.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    I would increase CHA to 20 before taking any feat or increasing DEX.
    Okay, I'll improve my charisma this level. Thanks, guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Surely there is no other reason why they would hire a charismatic and intelligent if scandalous infernal-blooded pretty boy to steal an high-ranking woman's clothes.
    “Plot” is what the DM does to amuse himself when the players aren’t talking.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Yeah, it's in case someone closes with me.

    Something I completely forgot to mention is that my character has the Mobile feat. We were allowed to pick a free feat at 1st level (could be anything that didn't increase an ability score). I know it's not very useful for a sorcerer, but it fitted my character's personality.

    Anyway, it means she can use Booming Blade to hit a creature and then walk away without risking an opportunity attack, while the creature will suffer damage if it tries to follow her.
    Booming Blade doesn't stop opportunity attacks. All it does is make it costly for someone to follow you. Being mobile, it'll be harder for them to follow you anyways. Shocking grasp on the other hand lets you disengage.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by GorogIrongut View Post
    Booming Blade doesn't stop opportunity attacks. All it does is make it costly for someone to follow you. Being mobile, it'll be harder for them to follow you anyways. Shocking grasp on the other hand lets you disengage.
    Booming Blade doesn't stop opportunity attacks but the Mobile feat does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Surely there is no other reason why they would hire a charismatic and intelligent if scandalous infernal-blooded pretty boy to steal an high-ranking woman's clothes.
    “Plot” is what the DM does to amuse himself when the players aren’t talking.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Booming Blade doesn't stop opportunity attacks but the Mobile feat does.
    Good call. Even though you were discussing Booming Blade I considered it a magical attack rather than a melee attack. I rescind my suggestion of Shocking Grasp.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by GorogIrongut View Post
    Good call. Even though you were discussing Booming Blade I considered it a magical attack rather than a melee attack. I rescind my suggestion of Shocking Grasp.
    Thanks for your other advice, by the way.

    - Regarding Hold Person, I might try it and see how it goes. If it doesn't perform, I'll swap it out for something else.

    - Regarding the Cantrips, I agree with you about Frostbite being a poor choice. However, I'm not sure about Shape Water either. Assuming I'm allowed to change it, what about either Friends or Ray of Frost?
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Surely there is no other reason why they would hire a charismatic and intelligent if scandalous infernal-blooded pretty boy to steal an high-ranking woman's clothes.
    “Plot” is what the DM does to amuse himself when the players aren’t talking.

  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Thanks for your other advice, by the way.

    - Regarding Hold Person, I might try it and see how it goes. If it doesn't perform, I'll swap it out for something else.

    - Regarding the Cantrips, I agree with you about Frostbite being a poor choice. However, I'm not sure about Shape Water either. Assuming I'm allowed to change it, what about either Friends or Ray of Frost?
    That's fine. I just happen to be a big fan of Mould Earth and Shape Water. I've found a lot of out of combat utility in them.

    If your choice is between Friends and Ray of Frost, I'd go with Friends every time. That said, you get a LOT more in game utility if you use Friends in combination with Disguise Self. Throw in a bit of performing skill and you can go across town/the country convincing your enemies to hate each other just by acting like you're one of them and then playing them off each other. I love that rider about them automatically becoming hostile and seeking to attack or gain revenge against you. It's an automatic aggro push button.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Thanks for your other advice, by the way.

    - Regarding Hold Person, I might try it and see how it goes. If it doesn't perform, I'll swap it out for something else.

    - Regarding the Cantrips, I agree with you about Frostbite being a poor choice. However, I'm not sure about Shape Water either. Assuming I'm allowed to change it, what about either Friends or Ray of Frost?
    I personally LOVE hold person, especially on sorcerer. With your mobile feat and Booming Blade you can hold person and then quicken booming blade and run away for an auto crit while making room so they can't hit you anymore.

    With a few melee partners hold person turns into an extremely powerful twinned option. Autocrits all around.

    For the spells you've chosen I would honestly stay with both as they seriously fit that vampire theme. Suggestion for the "suggestive/seductive" nature to get what you want and Hold Person for those scenes where you see the vampire close in on its prey with it paralyzed with fear in the corner.

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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cliché View Post
    Do you think it's ever worth Twinning Enervation, or would that be wasting too many resources?

    Okay, so when I get to 4th level, I'm thinking that this will be my spell list:

    Cantrips:
    - Chill Touch
    - Minor Illusion
    - Prestidigitation
    - Frostbite
    - Booming Blade

    Lv1:
    - Mage Armour
    - Ice Knife

    Lv2:
    - Suggestion
    - Hold Person
    - Misty Step

    If my GM lets me change my metamagic, I'll have Twin and Subtle.

    Also, my stats are:
    Str 11
    Dex 14
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Wis 14
    Cha 18

    EDIT: My character also has the Mobile feat (we were allowed to pick a free feat at 1st level).

    First question: Does that spell list look reasonable?

    Second question, what do you think I should use my 4th level Ability Score Improvement for?
    - +2 Dex?
    - +2 Cha?
    - A feat?
    Hey again ;=)

    So, spells list seems great (good call on Booming Blade, but mainly because you got Mobile -so you have a benefit even on a miss-, otherwise, I would have advised as others to get Shocking Grasp instead).

    As for ASI, contrarily to others, I would not increase CHA: you got 18 CHA already, which is a level most casters live with until lvl 8 (sometimes even 12) and have no problem with.

    I'd really put one of those at top priority instead...
    - Not Inspiring Leader (normally yes, but totally against your thematic).
    - Magic Initiate: Wizard or Ritual Caster: Wizard (IIRC, you liked the idea of a familiar to hold a Darkness stone: beyond that, pick Initiate if you want utility cantrips, otherwise Ritual Caster).
    - Warcaster: will be useful, from now and ever after, whether you use Darkness or any other great concentration spell you will get later.

    Considering your extremely great stats (yeah, you can multiclass in everything, that's not small), I'd go with Warcaster right now (especially since you have Booming Blade), get at least up to Sorcerer 6, then either...
    - All is fine, no problem surviving, no problem having fun >>> pure Sorcerer (max CHA at 8).
    - I'm feeling a bit weak > Death Cleric 1: medium armor and shields (paired with Warcaster), ability to twin necrotic cantrips for free, Healing Words (refluff as internal "bag" of blood used for emergency drinks), Sanctuary (refluff as "Intimidating Gaze"), etc...
    - I'm feeling a bit constrained in spells > whatever caster has spells you like.
    - I like blasting things SO MUCH > Evoker Wizard 2.
    - I want to be the one nobody can hit > Swashbuckler Rogue 3.
    Etc...

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    furious Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Hey again ;=)
    Hey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    So, spells list seems great (good call on Booming Blade, but mainly because you got Mobile -so you have a benefit even on a miss-, otherwise, I would have advised as others to get Shocking Grasp instead).
    Yeah, if I didn't have Mobile, I'd definitely want Shocking Grasp for escaping Opportunity Attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    As for ASI, contrarily to others, I would not increase CHA: you got 18 CHA already, which is a level most casters live with until lvl 8 (sometimes even 12) and have no problem with.

    I'd really put one of those at top priority instead...
    - Not Inspiring Leader (normally yes, but totally against your thematic).
    - Magic Initiate: Wizard or Ritual Caster: Wizard (IIRC, you liked the idea of a familiar to hold a Darkness stone: beyond that, pick Initiate if you want utility cantrips, otherwise Ritual Caster).
    - Warcaster: will be useful, from now and ever after, whether you use Darkness or any other great concentration spell you will get later.
    Interesting. I'll admit that Magic Initiate is tempting, simply because my character would probably appreciate a Familiar. In terms of the Cantrip, I could get Toll the Dead for flavour, though I'd have to cast it with Cha, so the DC would be a lot worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Considering your extremely great stats (yeah, you can multiclass in everything, that's not small), I'd go with Warcaster right now (especially since you have Booming Blade)
    Warcaster is probably the best choice, mechanically. My only concern is whether it fits in with my character's fluff/personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    get at least up to Sorcerer 6, then either...
    - All is fine, no problem surviving, no problem having fun >>> pure Sorcerer (max CHA at 8).
    - I'm feeling a bit weak > Death Cleric 1: medium armor and shields (paired with Warcaster), ability to twin necrotic cantrips for free, Healing Words (refluff as internal "bag" of blood used for emergency drinks), Sanctuary (refluff as "Intimidating Gaze"), etc...
    - I'm feeling a bit constrained in spells > whatever caster has spells you like.
    - I like blasting things SO MUCH > Evoker Wizard 2.
    - I want to be the one nobody can hit > Swashbuckler Rogue 3.
    Etc...
    Thanks, I'll refer back to these when we reach level 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Surely there is no other reason why they would hire a charismatic and intelligent if scandalous infernal-blooded pretty boy to steal an high-ranking woman's clothes.
    “Plot” is what the DM does to amuse himself when the players aren’t talking.

  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: How to not suck as a Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    You cannot cast as a beast, even with Subtle, because you lose your spellcasting ability while you're polymorphed. You do not even retain War Caster, unless the beast you morph into also has War Caster.

    It's a good buff on others. It's also a good debuff (turn enemies into actual worms for 1 hour as you monologue). But it's not a stellar self-buff except for when you need the temp HP.
    Right, you're quite correct about that. Don't know where my head is.

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