OOTS #1108 - The Discussion Thread

[MReav]

Thank you V for preventing the sitcom-level farce cringe.

[a1chemi]

She didn't want to talk to him.

She wanted to find out where he was, hunt him down, and kill him, without him knowing she was coming. Scrying would have let her know at the very least what his surroundings looked like, with him unaware that she was doing so. Sending would only have sent a message, and would have let him know she was looking for him.

I find the evidence that she wants to kill him specious at best. She said once that she was looking for people who want to murder Durkon, and she hates him sure, but I fully expect there to be more of a twist coming here.

Other than that one line, which doesn't exactly state that she herself wants to kill him, she has only said since that she's been trying to find him.

[brian 333]

Nope. She met him briefly. That's a +0. So the DC is 15 plus Hilgya's WIS modifier (at least +3, as she needs a 15 to cast a fifth level spell), and Durkon's WILL save will be (depending on level at the time of scrying) +8 to +10, plus his WIS modifier (currently pegged at +11, see Geekery). So Durkon will make that save unless rolling a 1.

Anyway, Hilgya's being an idiot. If you don't know where someone is, going to where you know they need to go is the smartest option available generally. It's even a trope, called cutting them off at the pass.

None of which matters because Durkon is dead. Durkula's will save might matter. Durkon exists only as a figment of a vampires imagination.

As a DM I might allow scrying on a vampire of someone they knew but it would be the vampire that makes the save. I might also allow scrying on Durkon's spirit but I'd treat it as if it were on another plane, the player would have to specify they are doing so, the characters would be required to have an understanding of how vampirism works, and the vampire would still get a save. Telepathy would be easier.

[Anarion]

Should we be concerned for Roy's mental health here? He's talking a lot like Elan. Amusing comic though, V thinking pretty well on that front.

[factotum]

Explanation of why she couldn't find Durkon: he resisted the spell. Conclusion: Sending wouldn't work? Yeah, I know if I can't find someone over the Internet, calling them by cellphone is clearly not going to work when you know what number to dial.

Except that's not how D&D spells work. Check the SRD--Scry has a saving throw (Will negates), whereas Sending does not; so even if someone can resist being scryed, they can't resist someone sending them a message via Sending.

[georgie_leech]

Except that's not how D&D spells work. Check the SRD--Scry has a saving throw (Will negates), whereas Sending does not; so even if someone can resist being scryed, they can't resist someone sending them a message via Sending.

Right, hence the rest of my post speculating on why she didn't Send instead when she was upset Durkon apparently didn't take responsibility for the child he didn't know about.

[Ruck]

I find the evidence that she wants to kill him specious at best. She said once that she was looking for people who want to murder Durkon, and she hates him sure, but I fully expect there to be more of a twist coming here.

She was looking for people who want to murder him, she immediately allied with those people once she found them, and in her view, she has perfectly good cause for murdering such a degenerate hypocrite who saddled her with a child and abandoned his responsibilities afterward. I don't find that specious; indeed, I find it to be the motivation that best explains her actions since she reappeared.

There might be a twist predicated on Durkon discovering he has a son, but I don't think that's going to be because Hilgya currently has different intentions than her apparent ones.

[Ironsmith]

Should we be concerned for Roy's mental health here? He's talking a lot like Elan.

I would say not. What Roy's showing now more than ever is a certain savviness for the medium he's in. Elan might not be the brightest bulb in the hardware store, but he's still more or less sane. If Roy seems to be acting uncharacteristically badly, recall that even he is prone to mistakes, and that he's trying to operate at around midnight as of right now, which is sort of hard to do unless you're already used to it and your sleep schedule's been displaced.

===

Anyway, I'm with the interpretation that Hilgya's actively out trying to, minimum, kill Durkon, since she had no objections to raise to someone else trying to do the same. Also, further proof that she's projecting/in denial... in the space of four panels, she goes from complaining about his "uptight, rule-worshipping little brain" to saying he'd probably slept with Hayley. While those two statements aren't incompatible, exactly (since "the rules" clearly allowed him to have sex, even if he didn't see any prospective partners that really interested him), they're still wildly incongruent, since one is invocative of the Durkon we know and the other describes the heartbreaker we know (and she should know) Durkon isn't.

Similarly, I do feel like there's going to be a twist coming on... if I had to guess, it'd probably be that Durkon* is far more appealing to Hilgya than Durkon is, or that the congruence between the two is going to radically affect Hilgya's thinking and therefore, the plot.


Also, pure theory territory here: she's going to get exactly the revenge she thinks she wants (killing Durkon*), only to find it devoid of any meaning (since it doesn't really fix her problems). In the absence of any other cleric capable of performing the appropriate spell, though, it'll fall on her to actually Resurrect Durkon, first edition. Naturally, she'll be reluctant, and it'll take some prodding from the rest of the group to convince her to do so. From there, I see one of several things happening.

• Durkon comes back to life, sees Hilgya, and is overjoyed to see her again. Hilgya, obviously, does not feel the same way. Hilgya then proceeds to berate Durkon for all the flaws she perceives him as having, while he himself takes it stoically... with Hilgya being the hedonist she is, this only serves to infuriate her even more, since it looks to her as though Durkon simply isn't having an emotional reaction to what she's saying ("Does this mean absolutely nothing to you?!") Durkon's response will... well, it'll probably be something that subverts what she thinks of him, most likely having to do with his infant son.
• Durkon comes back to life, sees Hilgya, and is torn; on the one hand, she's doing exactly what forced him to send her away in the first place: running away from her gods-given duty as a dwarf to pursue her own ambitions. On the other hand, despite witnessing definite murderous intentions on her part only moments prior, she did eventually find it in herself to bring him back. He's similarly torn on the subject of Kudzu: on the one hand, Kudzu is his son and it's his gods-given duty to care for his child, born in or out of wedlock. On the other hand, Hilgya probably still isn't going to let him near the boy. Tears and possibly (more) blood will be shed before the night is through.
• Durkon comes back to life, but the added urgency of Xykon being right by Kraagor's Gate means there's not a lot of time for him and Hilgya to sort out their differences. Durkon has to leave with the Order, but this time, he promises Hilgya he'll return, if only to take care of their son. His arc concludes later, probably at roughly the same time V's business with Inkyrius, Belkar's death, Elan's (and possibly Hayley's, since her own father is involved in the conflict and she was a significant part of Elan's own troubles with papa) confrontation of Tarquin, and Roy's own business all take place.

Bonus points if in one of the above, Durkon ends up having a moment with the party that parallels his memory in this strip. Not sure why, exactly, but something like that.

[Peelee]

Anyway, Hilgya's being an idiot. If you don't know where someone is, going to where you know they need to go is the smartest option available generally. It's even a trope, called cutting them off at the pass.

When did Hilgya ever know where Durkon needed to go?

None of which matters because Durkon is dead. Durkula's will save might matter. Durkon exists only as a figment of a vampires imagination.

This is D&D, not real life. Souls are prooved to exist. Durkon still very much exists, he's just trapped between life and the afterlife.

[lcavalheiro]

"Narrative abhors a vaccum"
I've lived to see Elan quoting (sort of... original statement is "Nature abhors a vacuum") Aristotle! Nice one, Giant!

[Peelee]

"Narrative abhors a vaccum"
I've lived to see Elan quoting (sort of... original statement is "Nature abhors a vacuum") Aristotle! Nice one, Giant!

Aristotle was truly amazing. I think without a doubt he was the smartest person to get absolutely everything wrong.

[lcavalheiro]

Aristotle was truly amazing. I think without a doubt he was the smartest person to get absolutely everything wrong.

It's what happens when you use logic tools to make statements about everything

[eilandesq]

Unless:

--Hilgya only recently started trying (meaning that Durkon was dead and the scrying would consequently automatically fail);

--Hilgya tried for a while, but gave up after X number of attempts in spite of her certainly knowing that Durkon would automatically fail at least 1 time in 20 no matter how ridiculous his save bonus was, or;

--she did keep trying for an extended period (given the timeline if she had started casting when she was clearly pregnant, she should have had time to cast that spell hundreds of times), and Durkon still made his save every single time either due to blind luck or someone actively tampering with the situation.

, there is at the very least a large hole in her account, without even getting into "she had access to many other spells that would have done the trick or at least given her a more definitive answer, most notably Sending."

[Riftwolf]

Quick question: do you know when you've made a will save vs scrying?
I remember reading somewhere that you know, on some level, that a spell has been cast, even if you resist all its effects and don't see or hear the caster.
But I also remember a game where a prisoner was willingly failing will saves versus scrying, with the reasoning that the only people who'd scry for him would be people planning his rescue.
That said, it's possible Durkon knew the scrying occurred, but didn't know who scryed. It could've been Xykon for all he knew.
I can see Hilgya's reasoning a bit; if I was looking for an ex I had good reason to contact, I'd probably try finding them in person before magically telephoning directly up their skull. But if scrying failed, I would've sent after.

Possible future strip: it turns out Hilgya did, but due to sendings word limit, she didn't say 'I'm pregnant' till the spell cut out. Durkon would've misunderstood her message, and told her to go back to her husband. This would explain Hilgya's bitterness to a degree.

[Curupira]

Aristotle was truly amazing. I think without a doubt he was the smartest person to get absolutely everything wrong.

Everything except narrative theory. To this day he's the most influential thinker on that topic :)

[lcavalheiro]

Everything except narrative theory. To this day he's the most influential thinker on that topic :)

I'm afraid I disagree. Even on Classic Athens we had more complete narrative theories (Plato and sophists, for instance) than aristotelian ones. Jumping to medievals, we had a lot of good theorists too, primarily among Arabs. Post-Renascence thinkers have added a lot on narrative theory, from Hobbes to Kant, from Hegel to Nietzsche. Plus, we had 20th century names, like Campbell or King.

I believe Aristotle is one of most influential thinker in both areas he exceled at: ethics and classical logic. Even on latter, he is outdated, since mathematical logic superseded classical one starting from 19th century.

[lcavalheiro]

Quick question: do you know when you've made a will save vs scrying?
I remember reading somewhere that you know, on some level, that a spell has been cast, even if you resist all its effects and don't see or hear the caster.
But I also remember a game where a prisoner was willingly failing will saves versus scrying, with the reasoning that the only people who'd scry for him would be people planning his rescue.
That said, it's possible Durkon knew the scrying occurred, but didn't know who scryed. It could've been Xykon for all he knew.
I can see Hilgya's reasoning a bit; if I was looking for an ex I had good reason to contact, I'd probably try finding them in person before magically telephoning directly up their skull. But if scrying failed, I would've sent after.

Possible future strip: it turns out Hilgya did, but due to sendings word limit, she didn't say 'I'm pregnant' till the spell cut out. Durkon would've misunderstood her message, and told her to go back to her husband. This would explain Hilgya's bitterness to a degree.

As far as I can remember, by D&D rules when you make a subconscious Will save (like ones you do against Scryng), you know you did the save, but you don't know against what you did or any info about caster or spell. You just know "I passed on a Will save". But it's Stickverse, and The Giant showed us before he isn't afraid to bend or rewrite rules for drama, comic or story advancement purposes

[Peelee]

Everything except narrative theory. To this day he's the most influential thinker on that topic :)

Influential is different. Aristotle is arguably the most influential person ever. His model of physics stood for a thousand years. He laid the building blocks for half the sciences. He was wrong about everything, but that's because he didn't have adequate tools to be right. He figured what I think are the best possible mechanisms to explain how the world works that anyone could have made at the time, with the tools and knowledge available.

Hence, the smartest person to be wrong about absolutely everything.

[lcavalheiro]

(...)He figured what I think are the best possible mechanisms to explain how the world works that anyone could have made at the time, with the tools and knowledge available.

I must disagree on that. Aristarchus of Samos have conceived and mathematically demonstrated the heliocentric model a hundred years before Aristotle. Also, Erathostenes of Cyrene proved that Earth is rounded-shape, calculated the distance between Earth and Sun and tilt of Earth axial tilt, and invented the leap day at same time Aristotle was alive. So, for some topics Aristotles would have the tools he needed if he had the "classical" Philosophy formation of his time (which involved a lot of maths, a thing Aristotle couldn't bear well).

I find very fitting insinuating that Aristotle was a bard: he wrote about a LOT of things, but for ignoring some tools he had in his time some of his theories are shallow as bardic lore.

[a1chemi]

Quick question: do you know when you've made a will save vs scrying?

Possible future strip: it turns out Hilgya did, but due to sendings word limit, she didn't say 'I'm pregnant' till the spell cut out. Durkon would've misunderstood her message, and told her to go back to her husband. This would explain Hilgya's bitterness to a degree.

Someone said earlier that you always know if you succeed at a savings throw but need to make a spell craft check to know what spell was targeting you.

I'm thinking that she didn't send because she didn't expect him to respond, given that he told her to get lost last time they saw each other.

Also, given her view of him, she also probably thinks he wouldn't believe he being pregnant, or wouldn't care, and didn't want to get his (expected to be dickish) response via sending rather than in person so that she could smack him with a hammer if she felt the need.

Also a sitcom misunderstanding isn't likely because she could have just cast send again and correct it.

[Goblin_Priest]

Scrying is "Saving Throw: Will negates"
There's a -10 modifier to the save if the person scrying has a body part.

So... that's it? She couldn't scry him, because his will save is too high?

That's... pretty weak. A natural 1 on the will save is an automatic fail. Sure you can only do it once per day... but just keep spamming it. Makes me wonder, though, that scrying eye some speculated was from Zzdiri, maybe it was from her?

As for the DC itself, why is it even all that high? She has first-hand experience with Durkon. Heck, having actually slept with him, I'd say that qualifies as "Familiar (you know the subject well)", so he gets -5 on his will save for that. Then, there's the connection. A mere picture is enough to reduce the save even further, and she's pretty dumb if she can't even invest in having a sketch artist make one up for her. Possession or garment is another -4. Seriously... that baby's half his blood (DNA), that should absolutely qualify for a -4 on the save, or at the very least a -2. That's a potential -11 on his save. Something he should be able to fail.

On top of all this, Durkon should KNOW if he's targeted by scrying spells.

Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

[Sebastian]

As for the DC itself, why is it even all that high? She has first-hand experience with Durkon. Heck, having actually slept with him, I'd say that qualifies as "Familiar (you know the subject well)"

Just listen to her talking about him. do you think she knows him well?

[Nomen]

So... that's it? She couldn't scry him, because his will save is too high?

That's... pretty weak. A natural 1 on the will save is an automatic fail. Sure you can only do it once per day... but just keep spamming it. Makes me wonder, though, that scrying eye some speculated was from Zzdiri, maybe it was from her?

As for the DC itself, why is it even all that high? She has first-hand experience with Durkon. Heck, having actually slept with him, I'd say that qualifies as "Familiar (you know the subject well)", so he gets -5 on his will save for that. Then, there's the connection. A mere picture is enough to reduce the save even further, and she's pretty dumb if she can't even invest in having a sketch artist make one up for her. Possession or garment is another -4. Seriously... that baby's half his blood (DNA), that should absolutely qualify for a -4 on the save, or at the very least a -2. That's a potential -11 on his save. Something he should be able to fail.

On top of all this, Durkon should KNOW if he's targeted by scrying spells.

My guess is she tried once or twice then gave up it fits what little we know about her character.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So... that's it? She couldn't scry him, because his will save is too high?

That's... pretty weak.

No, it is not.

Makes me wonder, though, that scrying eye some speculated was from Zzdiri, maybe it was from her?

No. It was Z's.

As for the DC itself, why is it even all that high? She has first-hand experience with Durkon. Heck, having actually slept with him, I'd say that qualifies as "Familiar (you know the subject well)"

She obviously does not know him at all, if he really thinks Durkon is some serial philanderer.

A mere picture is enough to reduce the save even further, and she's pretty dumb if she can't even invest in having a sketch artist make one up for her.

Where would he find a sketch artist that could paint an accurate picture of Durkon?

Possession or garment is another -4

Which she does not have any of.

Seriously... that baby's half his blood (DNA), that should absolutely qualify for a -4 on the save, or at the very least a -2.

Irrelevant. This is magic, not science. Hair has no DNA and is still the most traditional focus to us. That alone tells you that DNA is not what counts. What matters is that it was part of the person being scryed, and Kudzu is his own person, not some amalgamation of his parents. Otherwise, when you scryed for someone, you'd end up scrying his entire family, and that obviously is not what happens.

That's a potential -11 on his save. Something he should be able to fail.

No, it's a +0.

On top of all this, Durkon should KNOW if he's targeted by scrying spells.

As per the comic, he does not: it is a subconscious resistance. And even if it was per RAW, Durkon might have known someone might have tried to scry him and failed, not who did it - and there is no lack of antagonists that might have been targeting him, so from that conclude "Hilgya" is really grasping at straws.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

When did Hilgya ever know where Durkon needed to go?

Roy just told her, and she immediately discarded that as unworkable in favor of her plan, which has never worked yet.

Still, it tells us she must have a bag of holding on her to be carrying the jeweled font of holy water she needs for the forthcoming scry attempt. If she memorized the spell today.

[Goblin_Priest]

Extra point I intended to point out: she could have targeted known low-will members of the party, like Belkar.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Extra point I intended to point out: she could have targeted known low-will members of the party, like Belkar.

The party that had abandoned him in the dungeon? Why would she assume Durkon had rejoined them? She didn't.


GW

[Kish]

As per the comic, he does not: it is a subconscious resistance. And even if it was per RAW, Durkon might have known someone might have tried to scry him and failed, not who did it - and there is no lack of antagonists that might have been targeting him, so from that conclude "Hilgya" is really grasping at straws.

As someone pointed out, in one of the Dragon Magazine strips Durkon does go, "Huh, I just had to make an unexplained Will save! And another one!" At the time it just looks like setup for a single-strip joke, but it was quite a clever setup if Rich really had this in mind at the time he was writing that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As someone pointed out, in one of the Dragon Magazine strips Durkon does go, "Huh, I just had to make an unexplained Will save! And another one!" At the time it just looks like setup for a single-strip joke, but it was quite a clever setup if Rich really had this in mind at the time he was writing that.

Well, if scrying is really only once per day, then that can't have been just Hilgya. If anything, it proves that passing will saves is such an occupational hazard for Durkon that one more would not exactly raise any new alarm bells.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I must disagree on that. Aristarchus of Samos have conceived and mathematically demonstrated the heliocentric model a hundred years before Aristotle. Also, Erathostenes of Cyrene proved that Earth is rounded-shape, calculated the distance between Earth and Sun and tilt of Earth axial tilt, and invented the leap day at same time Aristotle was alive. So, for some topics Aristotles would have the tools he needed if he had the "classical" Philosophy formation of his time (which involved a lot of maths, a thing Aristotle couldn't bear well).

I find very fitting insinuating that Aristotle was a bard: he wrote about a LOT of things, but for ignoring some tools he had in his time some of his theories are shallow as bardic lore.

I thought most Greeks (and most people in general, that were relatively well-educated) embraced Eratosthenes's global earth. Did Aristotle not?

Also, I've never heard of Aristarchus before. Did he really have a heliocentric model proof? Why didn't it take off like other Greek proofs did?