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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    At this point I just want to remind everyone that the main reason the battle was easy is that apparently the 22 INT unfathomably ancient General of the Blood War, a being of Evil and Law that has thrived in a culture of constant betrayal and usurpation for millennia, subject only to the Archdevils themselves, wandered off to a small cave alone and severely injured with no subordinates and no escape plans.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    I personally find SoD effects, especially ones that have hard counters, to be super boring. They're not actual abilities. They're gates in disguise. Either you have the hard counter (in which case the ability might as well not exist), or you don't (and then you die). Binary stuff like that is the opposite of good encounter or monster design. Interesting abilities force the players to react to changed circumstances. Just like interesting failure states for ability checks change the situation so you can't just keep trying the same tactic.
    Dream of Hope: a 5e setting. http://www.admiralbenbo.org
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    At this point I just want to remind everyone that the main reason the battle was easy is that apparently the 22 INT unfathomably ancient General of the Blood War, a being of Evil and Law that has thrived in a culture of constant betrayal and usurpation for millennia, subject only to the Archdevils themselves, wandered off to a small cave alone and severely injured with no subordinates and no escape plans.
    A 100ft tall chamber where an artifact that could permanently lock outsiders to the material plane (for an invasion) was located.

    Yeah, he didn't run away. Was solo, and started at normal full HP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    A 100ft tall chamber where an artifact that could permanently lock outsiders to the material plane (for an invasion) was located.

    Yeah, he didn't run away. Was solo, and started at normal full HP.
    I thought you said the Pit Fiend couldn't fly out of range of the boulders? They have a "normal" range of 50 feet, anything between 50 and 100 has disadvantage. And if your group usually runs monsters at max hp, he was down about 108 points. Why was the macguffin guarded by a single Pit Fiend and nothing else?
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    A 100ft tall chamber where an artifact that could permanently lock outsiders to the material plane (for an invasion) was located.

    Yeah, he didn't run away. Was solo, and started at normal full HP.
    So you're saying that the Pit Fiend actually had more than enough room to stay out of range of the apes, or at least easily avoid them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    I thought you said the Pit Fiend couldn't fly out of range of the boulders? They have a "normal" range of 50 feet, anything between 50 and 100 has disadvantage. And if your group usually runs monsters at max hp, he was down about 108 points. Why was the macguffin guarded by a single Pit Fiend and nothing else?
    Thus still in range just at disadvantage. BUT the monkfighter was too dangerous for that tactic. He needed to melee him or he would die.

    It's CR isn't based on max HD. 5e characters are just vastly overpowered so the DM felt fine throwing in tweaks like that for boss fights.

    Demon and Devil armies fought over the artifact. We went down both paths of the city (dungeon) so neither side had advantage. The Pitfiend was the last man standing after killing a Balor before we rushed him (sans the sorcerer who was already hidden). He still started at full hit points not MAX HD.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Thus still in range just at disadvantage.
    Only if the Pit Fiend stays directly above the apes instead of, you know, a few dozen of feets away, due to how distances work in three dimensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    BUT the monkfighter was too dangerous for that tactic. He needed to melee him or he would die.
    And why didn't it do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    The Pitfiend was the last man standing after killing a Balor before we rushed him (sans the sorcerer who was already hidden). He still started at full hit points not MAX HD.
    So you're saying you managed to surprise this Pit Fiend by having several-stories-high monkeys and dudes in armor charge at it?
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2018-01-03 at 06:33 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Some are attacking my DM now. We switched that campaign to PF and played it to level 20 without issue and the combats were fun against interesting monsters.

    Same DM. Same players. Same campaign. Different system. One system clearly has more interesting monsters.
    I don't want to attack your DM, that's not the goal here. But, your argument that 5e monsters are worse than pathfinder monsters seems predicated on the fact that your team had little trouble with this fight. So, considering that we can find some incredibly clear strategy mistakes with this fight, showing that it is highly likely that the fight itself was not the problem, is our fastest way of highlighting how your assessment is inaccurate.

    And, I'll admit, i don't understand why the pit fiend focused on the apes. They were clearly magically summoned or transformed people (even if the pit fiend didn't see the spellcaster because they were around the corner, I'm highly suspect that the caves and passageways were big enough for two huge creatures to sneak down, meaning magic is the only way they got to the fight unnannounced)

    You see, attacking the apes is pointless because they are a minor threat. They'll average about 44 damage together a turn, and being either summoned or polymorphed killing them does not actually reduce the fighting power of the true enemies. In fact, their massive hp pools and low damage make them a distraction, something the fiend should have ignored while killing the party members . Taking the attacks of opportunity for circling or flying over the apes (huge means giant size, around 25 ft tall max, 100 ft ceiling means plenty of clearance) may seem like a bad strategy, but it allows him to begin knocking out the other party members, reducing the overall damage he takes, and narrowing down who was responsible for the apes.


    You might have still won the fight. But instead of three rounds spent tearing through temporary hp, the fiend should have been tearing through the real threats and dropping people. Especially since that poison is a death sentence, since you can't heal while poisoned and you take damage every turn, meaning a failed death save at the start of every turn. Once the paladin is down I don't see any other healers who could remove the poison and save the party members.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Thus still in range just at disadvantage. BUT the monkfighter was too dangerous for that tactic. He needed to melee him or he would die.
    Disadvantage is hardly an insignificant factor. Not sure what the Monk has to do with it given you previously claimed the Giant Apes grappling the Pit Fiend was decisive. Which I just pointed out shouldn't have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    It's CR isn't based on max HD. 5e characters are just vastly overpowered so the DM felt fine throwing in tweaks like that for boss fights.
    Overpowered compared to what exactly? The only thing you can accurately compare a 5e character to is another 5e character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Demon and Devil armies fought over the artifact. We went down both paths of the city (dungeon) so neither side had advantage. The Pitfiend was the last man standing after killing a Balor before we rushed him (sans the sorcerer who was already hidden). He still started at full hit points not MAX HD.
    So this Pit Fiend was assumed to have expended most of his resources? You keep saying it not being at max HD isn't significant. It's significant if previously boss monsters at your table always had max hit die. How was the Sorcerer hidden exactly? I'm curious as to what was used to avoid 120ft truesight.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Try harder Scripten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    How was the Sorcerer hidden exactly? I'm curious as to what was used to avoid 120ft truesight.
    Being 3 blocks away in a barrel down an alleyway.

    Polymorph has an hour long duration.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    But, your argument that 5e monsters are worse than pathfinder monsters seems predicated on the fact that your team had little trouble with this fight.
    Well no, my point is that more complex monsters in other games tend to have more tools to counter PC abilities. The Pit Fiend fight seems to be my argument because people keep wanting to talk about it (and various strategies they would have done that would amount to the Pit-fiend dying a little differently. Because you guys really can't keep up with all the various tools at the PCs disposal and neither did the devs when they wrote monsters.)

    It's a myth that only 3e monsters needed that because PCs had so many abilities. Funny thing about that. 3e PCs had far less useful abilities than 5e PCs. So monsters have been nerfed while PCs have been buffed (when striking above their CR and nerfed when handling hordes of mooks).

    The DMG estimates have been repeated over and over again. This was estimated as a "hard" fight, which means it's easy, as in Party members are not expected to die if they play smart. The fight is, at best, a big resource sink. We could have fought two Pitfiends that day and have been fine with maybe the third one actually taking us out if Polymorph ran out inbetween fights. People seem to have problem with that because they envision a general of Hell to be a bigger threat than that. Which it could have been with more abilities (even with bonded accuracy).

    Give this Pitfiend at-will dispel magic, invisibility, and SKILL PROFS (how the hell is this guy not proficient in anything?) and this fight is an auto TPK until the party is significantly higher level. But in some weird effort to be "simple" the Pitfiend is basically a beatstick that a level 5 sorcerer could cast circles around.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Oh?

    Please do tell how a level 5 Sorcerer could accomplish this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Oh?

    Please do tell how a level 5 Sorcerer could accomplish this?
    Hyperbole. Needs to at least level 7.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Snip
    More buttons to push don't necessarily make up for the tactical incompetence. The Pit Fiend already had the means to, if not win, at least make the fight much harder, as noted by other posters. The GM was just unwilling, or incapable of using them. But I guess giving him the exact countermeasures needed to deal with this exact group would be a solution, too, with no effort required on the GM's part.

    Also, solo creature against 7 characters. That's just... ugh.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Well no, my point is that more complex monsters in other games tend to have more tools to counter PC abilities. The Pit Fiend fight seems to be my argument because people keep wanting to talk about it (and various strategies they would have done that would amount to the Pit-fiend dying a little differently. Because you guys really can't keep up with all the various tools at the PCs disposal and neither did the devs when they wrote monsters.)
    That fight represents hitting a monster from surprise when it was vulnerable, while also having a seven to one advantage. It getting taken out in those circumstances doesn't seem like a problem.

    On top of that, this directly reinforces what I was talking about with context. The 5e monsters are generally not designed to square off against seven PCs by their lonesome, and played that way they're a bit lackluster. A seven against seven fight with somewhat more complex terrain would play very differently, and would also be much more interesting.

    3e meanwhile generally did design monsters to work best in isolation, and it usually doesn't take that many for the mechanics to start getting cumbersome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Well no, my point is that more complex monsters in other games tend to have more tools to counter PC abilities. The Pit Fiend fight seems to be my argument because people keep wanting to talk about it (and various strategies they would have done that would amount to the Pit-fiend dying a little differently. Because you guys really can't keep up with all the various tools at the PCs disposal and neither did the devs when they wrote monsters.)

    It's a myth that only 3e monsters needed that because PCs had so many abilities. Funny thing about that. 3e PCs had far less useful abilities than 5e PCs. So monsters have been nerfed while PCs have been buffed (when striking above their CR and nerfed when handling hordes of mooks).

    The DMG estimates have been repeated over and over again. This was estimated as a "hard" fight, which means it's easy, as in Party members are not expected to die if they play smart. The fight is, at best, a big resource sink. We could have fought two Pitfiends that day and have been fine with maybe the third one actually taking us out if Polymorph ran out inbetween fights. People seem to have problem with that because they envision a general of Hell to be a bigger threat than that. Which it could have been with more abilities (even with bonded accuracy).

    Give this Pitfiend at-will dispel magic, invisibility, and SKILL PROFS (how the hell is this guy not proficient in anything?) and this fight is an auto TPK until the party is significantly higher level. But in some weird effort to be "simple" the Pitfiend is basically a beatstick that a level 5 sorcerer could cast circles around.
    I will give you skill proficiencies, that is something that annoys the hell out of me and I homebrew constantly.

    And giving Pit Fiends more abilities would make them more threatening, and against a 15th or higher party I'd definitely home brew them to do so.

    But, there is a problem with your theory to counter pc abiities. What do you counter? Sure, you need an answer for spellcasting, but with the vast amount of casting only an at-will counter spell would make a dent without wrecking the fiends action economy. Do you counter paladins aura by increasing saves? Well, paladins aren't standard. Counter magic items? Not standard. Counter feats? Not standard. Counter bards? Barbarians? Need an answer for moon druids and clerics, then move on to rogue sneak attacks.

    Kind of ridiculous sounding after a minute. The designers can't possibly build a counter for every single ability, because then to give players a chance you need counter-counters, and 5e isn't supposed to play like that.

    And some of what you want does exist. There are soft counters to some abilities. But, giving the single pit fiend vs 9 characters an action dispel magic isn't going to make a big difference to the fight you described. He couldn't run and use hit and run tactics, according to you, so invisibility wouldn't have helped.

    In fact, the first thing you said it needed a few posts back, was the ability to instantly slay enemies below a certain level. That doesn't counter player ability, that counters player existence, and it's boring, cause it is no threat to the players at the level they are supposed to fight at.

    High CR creatures needing some extra work to properly challenge high level characters is a known complaint. But it isn't a requirement and plenty of games don't have the issue you've described. Heck, the only problem a pit fiend would have against my level 17 party is that 300 hp would get chewed through too fast, but with a handful of minions and a good setting i could probably do a lot of damage to them.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    You know what would act as a counter for most of PCs' abilities?

    Let's take a look at the points of similarities to find a pattern: most of the PCs' abilities are meant to kill the monster, make it easier to kill the monster, or make themselves harder to kill so they can kill the monster more.

    So, obviously, we need something that would prevent the monster from getting killed. To get "hurt", so to speak, before they die.

    Of course, we're not going to classify all the types of "hurt" that are possible. A Commoner dies no matter if you hit them with a stick or if you set them on fire, so it's not relevant to say they're hurt in different ways. In a way, it makes the designation "hurt" be more of a paradigm than any particular instance. So, let's call it "hurt paradigm". Thought it'd look better with capitalization rather than "", so let's change that.

    Of course, them getting Hurt only once before dying would make the monsters rather weak and boring, so they probably needs more than one Paradigm. They need several. Bags of them, if you will. But the term is a bit long to say, so abbreviating it will make it more practical.

    So, in conclusion: to counter PCs abilities, monsters are given bags of HPs.

    Yeah, I think we got it, folk.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2018-01-03 at 09:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    And some of what you want does exist. There are soft counters to some abilities. But, giving the single pit fiend vs 9 characters an action dispel magic isn't going to make a big difference to the fight you described. He couldn't run and use hit and run tactics, according to you, so invisibility wouldn't have helped.
    He goes invisible and then dispels the Polymorph spell. Boom! 300+ HP down. With athletics he could then walk up to monk and just stomp him. Disengage after the monk is dead and then fireball everyone else at his leisure.

    Eventually an invisible sorcerer would find his dead party and the pitfiend gone with the artifact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    So, in conclusion: to counter PCs abilities, monsters are given bags of HPs.
    Wha....? That doesn't counter abilities. It just lets a monster live a bit longer. Were you a dev for the Division or Destiny and confuse interesting mechanics with MORE HP?
    Last edited by Rhedyn; 2018-01-03 at 09:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    The Pit Fiend already had the means to, if not win, at least make the fight much harder, as noted by other posters. The GM was just unwilling, or incapable of using them.
    This just isn't true. Combat went like this.

    Round 1: Pitfiend cast wall of fire. Ape Squad moves Closer. Monk wall runs and shoots
    Round 2: Pitfiend fireballs the monk. The monk saves. Ape Squad runs through wall with paladin saves and OoA granting resistance to magic damage. Wall is basically worthless.
    Round 3: Pitfiend flys up and fireballs the monk again. Still ineffective. The wizard (I believe) cast protection from elements on the monk and then separates. Apes throw rocks.
    Round 4: Pitfiend wall of fires the monk and the wizard. Monk is fine. Wizard is down. Apes throw more rocks
    Round 5: Pitfiend is hurting. Attempts to fly to monk (dome ceiling), apes intercept/monk disengages.
    Round 6-x: Pitfiend is trapped (bad athletics) and gets pounded on. Paladin fails fear save multiple times due to bad rolls (fear effect isn't that bad anymore). Apes pass on first save because of paladin buffs. GM waffles on who to beat down first. Ape gets most of the beating and unleashes a Bard, who nearly dies. Pitfiend in ended by a smite from the paladin after he makes his save. Top DPR goes to the monkfighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    This just isn't true. Combat went like this.

    Round 1: Pitfiend cast wall of fire. Ape Squad moves Closer. Monk wall runs and shoots
    Round 2: Pitfiend fireballs the monk. The monk saves. Ape Squad runs through wall with paladin saves and OoA granting resistance to magic damage. Wall is basically worthless.
    Round 3: Pitfiend flys up and fireballs the monk again. Still ineffective. The wizard (I believe) cast protection from elements on the monk and then separates. Apes throw rocks.
    Round 4: Pitfiend wall of fires the monk and the wizard. Monk is fine. Wizard is down. Apes throw more rocks
    Round 5: Pitfiend is hurting. Attempts to fly to monk (dome ceiling), apes intercept/monk disengages.
    Round 6-x: Pitfiend is trapped (bad athletics) and gets pounded on. Paladin fails fear save multiple times due to bad rolls (fear effect isn't that bad anymore). Apes pass on first save because of paladin buffs. GM waffles on who to beat down first. Ape gets most of the beating and unleashes a Bard, who nearly dies. Pitfiend in ended by a smite from the paladin after he makes his save. Top DPR goes to the monkfighter.
    ...and this here proves what Chaosmancer just said.

    In Round 1, how did the Monk wall run? Specifically, how did they wall run and manage to get high enough to hit an enemy surrounded by an *opaque wall of fire*.

    Unless the monk somehow managed to get above the Wall of Fire and with a good angle to hit the devil with only one round of movement, he should not have been able to shoot.

    In Round 2, if the Pit Fiend had *moved* rather than staying there and waiting for the apes like a tree, simply to attack the monk, it wouldn't have had any problem. And it could still have had no problem with your party, if basic tactics had been used.

    Also, the "paladin save" wouldn't do anything. If you cross the wall, you take damage, no save.

    And the damages are also continuous if you stay within 10ft of the wall. So that's about 20 less HPs by round 3, which means that the Paladin should have been damaged enough to die on the third round.

    In Round 3, The Fiend is not stupid enough to keep shooting avoidable spells at someone who can use Evasion. Just move to the monk and multiattack. Death in one or 2 rounds maximum. Or just kill the Paladin who's in melee range.

    In Round 4, the Pit Fiend had no reason to use Wall of Fire again, or at least not like this.

    Also, even if it did decide to attack the Wizard and managed to down him, it would have cancelled the protection magic on the Monk (unless I'm mixing up the spells).

    In Round 5, how the hell did a *flying* enemy get intercepted and apparently grappled by huge gorillas? According to you, the Fiend has been flying since round 3

    In Round 6-x, how did the Paladin reach the enemy for the smite?

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    How did the Monk wall-fun? You say they were a Monk-Fighter multiclass, and furthermore, that they were an Arcane Archer, so they were at least Fighter 3. Monks don't get wall-running till level 9. They also don't get Evasion till level 7.

    In addition, let me ask you this-what should the odds of player death be in an encounter? Just average it, across all encounters. Does 5% sound reasonable? 5% chance of someone dying per encounter?

    Because, if it does...

    Spoiler: Math
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    It takes only 14 encounters before the death rate is above 50%.

    In addition, let's assume the average encounter is Medium. (Some will be Easy, some Hard, some Deadly, but let's average it to Medium.) You have 6 encounters from level 1 to 2. 6 from level 2 to 3. 12 from level 3 to 4. Let me make a chart.(Note that I will ROUND DOWN in all cases.)

    Level X to Y (X-Y( Encounter Total
    1-2 6
    2-3 6
    3-4 12
    4-5 15
    5-6 15
    6-7 15
    7-8 14
    8-9 15
    9-10 14
    10-11 17
    11-12 9
    12-13 10
    13-14 9
    14-15 10
    15-16 10
    16-17 9
    17-18 10
    18-19 9
    19-20 10
    Total 215

    So, you want to make it to level 20? That's 215 encounters. Assuming an aggregate 5% death rate per encounter, that's just over 10 dead PCs over a campaign, or, assuming a standard 4-man group, the entire party replaced twice. Plus change.
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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    How did the Monk wall-fun? You say they were a Monk-Fighter multiclass, and furthermore, that they were an Arcane Archer, so they were at least Fighter 3. Monks don't get wall-running till level 9. They also don't get Evasion till level 7.

    In addition, let me ask you this-what should the odds of player death be in an encounter? Just average it, across all encounters. Does 5% sound reasonable? 5% chance of someone dying per encounter?

    Because, if it does...

    Spoiler: Math
    Show
    It takes only 14 encounters before the death rate is above 50%.

    In addition, let's assume the average encounter is Medium. (Some will be Easy, some Hard, some Deadly, but let's average it to Medium.) You have 6 encounters from level 1 to 2. 6 from level 2 to 3. 12 from level 3 to 4. Let me make a chart.(Note that I will ROUND DOWN in all cases.)

    Level X to Y (X-Y( Encounter Total
    1-2 6
    2-3 6
    3-4 12
    4-5 15
    5-6 15
    6-7 15
    7-8 14
    8-9 15
    9-10 14
    10-11 17
    11-12 9
    12-13 10
    13-14 9
    14-15 10
    15-16 10
    16-17 9
    17-18 10
    18-19 9
    19-20 10
    Total 215

    So, you want to make it to level 20? That's 215 encounters. Assuming an aggregate 5% death rate per encounter, that's just over 10 dead PCs over a campaign, or, assuming a standard 4-man group, the entire party replaced twice. Plus change.
    10 dead pc's? Excuse me while I don't waste my time and go play Diablo or Cuphead instead.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    How did the Monk wall-fun? You say they were a Monk-Fighter multiclass, and furthermore, that they were an Arcane Archer, so they were at least Fighter 3. Monks don't get wall-running till level 9. They also don't get Evasion till level 7.
    Good points.

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    He goes invisible and then dispels the Polymorph spell. Boom! 300+ HP down. With athletics he could then walk up to monk and just stomp him. Disengage after the monk is dead and then fireball everyone else at his leisure.
    Dispel would only work on one polymorph effect at a time, meaning it would take two castings to make both apes turn back into people. That's two turns for a rather minimal effect.

    And while athletics would almost guarentee escaping the apes grapple (assuming that's why it matters) looking at the RAW numbers isn't terrible. Apes +9 vs Fiends +8. Almost even numbers as is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    This just isn't true. Combat went like this.

    Round 1: Pitfiend cast wall of fire. Ape Squad moves Closer. Monk wall runs and shoots
    Round 2: Pitfiend fireballs the monk. The monk saves. Ape Squad runs through wall with paladin saves and OoA granting resistance to magic damage. Wall is basically worthless.
    Round 3: Pitfiend flys up and fireballs the monk again. Still ineffective. The wizard (I believe) cast protection from elements on the monk and then separates. Apes throw rocks.
    Round 4: Pitfiend wall of fires the monk and the wizard. Monk is fine. Wizard is down. Apes throw more rocks
    Round 5: Pitfiend is hurting. Attempts to fly to monk (dome ceiling), apes intercept/monk disengages.
    Round 6-x: Pitfiend is trapped (bad athletics) and gets pounded on. Paladin fails fear save multiple times due to bad rolls (fear effect isn't that bad anymore). Apes pass on first save because of paladin buffs. GM waffles on who to beat down first. Ape gets most of the beating and unleashes a Bard, who nearly dies. Pitfiend in ended by a smite from the paladin after he makes his save. Top DPR goes to the monkfighter.
    I'll second confusion on this monk/arcane archer. If he's really level 7 as claimed then for this "wall run, shoot, and take zero damage from fireballs" strategy he would need a Ring of Evasion and Slippers of Spider-climbing (or some equivalent abilities). Otherwise, even at half damage 16d8 plus the 5d8 from wall of fire (probably quarter damage since the wizard wouldn't technically drop concentration til after the spell effect resolved) would leave him severly battered.

    Also, if monk is on wall, and fiend is flying over and down, how did apes intercept before devil could attack? I mean, it's about an 80 ft floor (from apes taking two turns to approach) and the fiend got intercepted the only time he moved towards the monk. Did the apes fall back at some point?

    I assume the grappling allowed the apes to slam the fiend on the ground, allowing the paladin to land the killing blow.

  26. - Top - End - #176
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post

    Also, if monk is on wall, and fiend is flying over and down, how did apes intercept before devil could attack? I mean, it's about an 80 ft floor (from apes taking two turns to approach) and the fiend got intercepted the only time he moved towards the monk. Did the apes fall back at some point?
    If the room is a 100ft high dome, then it should be around 200ft of diameters. And apparently the Pit Fiend just stood there on the ground, near the center.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2018-01-03 at 11:58 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #177
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    At this point the gaps opening up in the story are so huge that either the group described didn't really understand the game they were playing, or the encounter as recounted didn't happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Besides everything already posted, the Pit Fiend could also use Hold Monster on the monk (of course, monk suddenly has proficiency in Wis saves and insane wisdom, so he always succeeds on the DC 21 save), and then either murder him in a single turn with autocrit multiattack at advantage, or, to horrify his teammates further, grapple him (monk autofails thanks to being paralyzed) and do the same thing, except 100' in the air where the others can't do anything but watch, perhaps more slowly. The monk is the only threat, though he'll also propably try to kill the wizard, if he does anything. Apes are harmless as long as he's in the air, and it doesn't seem the paladin had a ranged option. How much knowledge of the party the Pit Fiend had, anyway?

    Also, where did the apes got the huge rocks they threw at the Pit Fiend? It doesn't sound like there were any in the chamber, and I doubt they took them from the outside. Oh, let me guess: they pulled them out of their hairy behinds, because Giant Ape has a rock attack in it's statblock, which means they can magically generate the rock anytime they want to.

    And what is Pit Fiend's goal in this fight? Because if all he wanted was the artifact, he could've grabbed that and just fly away (taking few shots from the monk), perhaps frying the sorcerer when he meets him on the way out.

    Edit: and how did the party got the apes to walk into the fire? Polymorph turns its targets into animals mentally, though they'll keep their personality. Unless that personality is "I'm suicidal fool", no animal will walk into huge wall of flames willingly.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2018-01-04 at 07:04 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    Giant Apes have 7 int. They are basically people in terms of sapient status. Rock throwing is in their stat block, thus they have it. Debris from the battle was the narrative reason. Otherwise they are just pulling rocks from the ground.

    Monk was majority monk, but he probably misread when he got wall run. He didn't have evasion. We were level 8 not 7.

    Twin Polymorph is one effect. Both would be dispelled by one dispel magic.
    Last edited by Rhedyn; 2018-01-04 at 08:19 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Are 5e monsters boring bags of HPs? PROVE IT!

    I guess this is a good example of problems when people are so invested in making a "hard" encounter impossible.

    The system estimate puts this fight as merely a heavy resource drain. IDK why you guys dislike 5e so much that it NEEDS to be a TPK or the DM did it wrong. Seems our encounter went exactly as the DMG predicts it would.

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