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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    HOUSE RULES
    (Ver.1.4.1)
    I. Adventuring

    Death and Dying: The variant rule, Death and Dying, comes into effect when a conscious character takes enough damage (from a single attack/hit) to be reduced to -10hp or lower.

    Dying: A dying character is unconscious and near death. Each round on his turn, a dying character must make a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per 5 points of damage past -10, +1 per turn after the first) to become stable at -9.

    If the character fails the save, he dies.

    If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, he does not die but does not improve. He is still dying and must continue to make Fortitude saves every round.

    If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more but by less than 10, he becomes stable but remains unconscious.

    If the character succeeds on the save by 10 or more, he becomes conscious and disabled.

    Another character can make a dying character stable by succeeding on a DC 15 Heal check as a standard action (which provokes attacks of opportunity).

    II. Class Features

    Non-magic Class Feat Advancement: Classes without access to magic or equivalents (e.g. Incarnum, Invocations, Maneuvers, Psionics, etc...), except Fighter 2.0 (see class description), gain their standard feats at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20.

    Non-magic Class Skill Ranks: Classes without access to magic (or Incarnum, Invocations, Maneuvers, Psionics, etc...) gain a minimum of 4 skill points per level.

    Fighter 2.0: See new class description (attached).

    Rogue: May select the Pathfinder feat Deadly Agility.

    Monk: Have good BAB. The ability Flurry of Blows is a Standard Action.

    Druids: No longer have an Animal Companion and may no longer select the feat Natural Spell.

    Rangers: May choose Animal Companions as a Druid from the SRD. Rangers may apply their Dex modifier to damage with bows.

    III. Combat

    A full attack is a standard action if your BAB is at least twice the highest level of spell/power/maneuver known.

    IV. Feats

    Weapon Finesse is no longer a Feat. It is a property of light weapons, rapiers, whips, or spiked chains made for a creature of your size category. If you are proficient with these weapons, you may use your dex modifier instead of you strength modifier on attack rolls.

    Powerful Maneuvers: Cleave, Imp. Bull Rush, Imp. Overrun, and Imp. Sunder are merged into the feat Powerful Maneuvers. You still need Power Attack as a prereq for this feat. This feat acts as if it was the feat it replaces for all purposes.

    Deft Maneuvers: Improved Disarm, Feint, and Trip are merged into the feat Deft Maneuvers. You still need Combat Expertise as a prereq for this feat. This feat acts as if it was the feat it replaces for all purposes

    Dodge: Dodge and Mobilty are merged into Dodge. Dodge provides a +1 bonus which increases by +1 every 5 levels(1-4th +1, 5-9th +2, etc...)

    Two Weapon Fighting: Improved Two-weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting are merged into Two Weapon fighting. You gain the the effects of the feats as you meet their prerequisite. So if you took Two weapon fighting at 3rd level, if you had a Dex of 17 and your BAB became +6, you would be able to make an extra attack with your off hand at a -5 penalty.

    V. Skills

    Stealth: Hide and Move Silently are merged into the Stealth skill

    Athletics: Climb, Jump, and Swim are merged into Athletics Skill

    Acrobatics: Tumble, Escape Artist, Balance are merged into Acrobatics

    Perception: Spot and Listen are merged into Perception

    Finesse: Disable Device, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand are merged into Finesse

    VI. Spells

    The following spells are banned: Simulacrum, Shapechange, Consumptive Field, Celerity(greater and lesser), Mage's Disjunction, Shivering Touch, Polymorph, Draconic Polymorph, Gate, and Planar Binding(incl. lesser and greater).
    Last edited by Goladar; 2018-01-02 at 09:53 PM.

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Another fan of the Elephant in the Room article, I see. :)
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2017-12-31 at 06:49 PM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Another fan of the Elephant in the Room article, I see. :)
    They seem reasonable. I'm testing them out right now.

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Look very reasonable, martials will still be behind full casters but the buffs will help.

    Death and Dying: Classes with good fort saves and a cloak of resistance will be exceedingly hard to kill with hit point damage. This might be a main goal. Making the save 1 worse for every 5 below -10 or something might add some sanity to it.

    Ranger: Full animal companion is nice, they are squishy currently. I'm assuming +dex bonus to damage instead of +str bonus, both is likely too much. Might call that out.

    Monk: Full BAB helps, what does the other part mean? Your rules they can move then full attack/flurry, what happens as a standard action? Might be simple redundancy.

    Pathfinder uses combined skills like your house rules, as well as giving everyone feats at 1, 3, 5, 7, etc. Might simplify a lot by stating "use pathfinder rules for ..." Giving rogues sleight of hand basically for free never hurts.

    Psychic Warriors and Swordsages stand out as not benefiting from your martial buffs. They don't need it as much as fighters and monks, but up to you whether they get more feats or move+full attack, or not.

    Druids were nerfed hard. Even after this, they are solidly Tier-1 but likely a chunk behind the Cleric. Again, you may be perfectly happy with this result.

    Overall good houserules, generally will improve over base 3.5. Level 9 casters still dominate, but move+full attack can be a big deal. Improved initiative is much more valuable now.

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    One of the things pointed out in the Elephant in the Room comments is that Improved Feint is not actually a combat manoeuvre in the same way the others are. Deft Manoeuvres should probably have Disarm, Grapple and Trip, rather than Feint.

    I have no idea about the actual balance, but you could probably gestalt Psychic Warrior and Soulblade for free and not have too many problems.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2018-01-01 at 07:07 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladar View Post
    HOUSE RULES
    (Ver.1.4)
    I. Adventuring

    Death and Dying: The variant rule, Death and Dying, comes into effect when a conscious character takes enough damage (from a single attack/hit) to be reduced to -10hp or lower.

    Dying: A dying character is unconscious and near death. Each round on his turn, a dying character must make a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per turn after the first) to become stable.

    If the character fails the save, he dies.

    If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, he does not die but does not improve. He is still dying and must continue to make Fortitude saves every round.

    If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more but by less than 10, he becomes stable but remains unconscious.

    If the character succeeds on the save by 10 or more, he becomes conscious and disabled.

    Another character can make a dying character stable by succeeding on a DC 15 Heal check as a standard action (which provokes attacks of opportunity).
    I'm basing these questions on the assumption that this rule only applies to characters who were at positive hit points and reduced to -10 hit points in a single hit.

    A. Are the normal dying and stabilization rules still in effect? (I.E.: when reduced to -1 through -9 you still become unconscious and roll stabilization checks)
    B. If a character becomes stable at -10 or below, or conscious and disabled at that same number, what happens to his hit points? Per the current rules, characters with less than -9 HP are dead.

    II. Class Features

    Non-magic Class Feat Advancement: Classes without access to magic or equivalents (e.g. Incarnum, Invocations, Maneuvers, Psionics, etc...), except Fighter 2.0 (see class description), gain their standard feats at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20.

    Non-magic Class Skill Ranks: Classes without access to magic (or Incarnum, Invocations, Maneuvers, Psionics, etc...) gain a minimum of 4 skill points per level.
    This phrasing feels very loaded to me.
    For starters, you definitely need a fully inclusive list on what counts as "equivalent" to magic for the purposes of this rule.
    Secondly, you also need to clearly define what counts as access to magic. After all, a Rogue 20 with max ranks in Use Magic Device certainly has "access" to magic, even though it's not a class feature. Another scenario worth considering involves classes like Chameleon, who even without ranks in UMD can selectively have access to magic on a daily basis.
    Finally, this is an unintentional nerf to build types that are very feat starved but have access to magic as an incidental, such as the stock Swift Hunter build of Scout 4/Ranger 16.

    Fighter 2.0: See new class description (attached).
    *looks around for "attached"*
    >.>
    <.<
    ...Uhh....

    Monk: Have good BAB. The ability Flurry of Blows is a Standard Action.
    This is the first thing on the list that made my head snap up on reading it.
    How does the monk function under this rule? Does this mean that the monk, now with full BAB, takes his entire attack routine for the round as a standard action? Do you only get a two attacks when you flurry; one for the normal standard action melee attack, plus one extra for flurry (which turns into two extra for Greater Flurry at Monk 11?). Is this now an entirely separate action that can no longer be used as part of a full attack action? This feels like a one line change for something that would require a full rewrite.

    Druids: No longer have an Animal Companion and may no longer select the feat Natural Spell.

    Rangers: May choose Animal Companions as a Druid from the SRD. Rangers may apply their Dex modifier to damage with bows.
    The first question I have is whether or not this would preclude a druid from taking the Wild Cohort feat. If not, then that feat will likely replace Natural Spell as the "required" feat for all druid builds.

    My second question relates directly to the combat change just below:

    Classes without access to magic(or Incarnum, Invocations, Maneuvers, Psionics, etc...) and classes with Good BAB (e.g. Monks, Paladins, and Rangers) can move up to their speed and use the Full Attack action. If a character without magic later gains access to magic, they lose the ability to Move and Full Attack.
    Um. Wow.
    Okay. There is a lot to unpack here.

    For starters this has the same problem as the first rule; "gains access to magic" needs to be more rigidly defined as to whether that would include characters with ranks in Use Magic Device and special circumstances like Chameleon, or even characters in possession of magic items (does someone wearing a Ring of Invisibility also not have "access" to magic?). I next want to question why they even bothered to call out Paladins and Rangers on that list. They both gain access to their respective spell lists two full levels before they get a second attack from their good BAB.

    Additionally, this is a massive buff to rogues and ranged combat. Potentially game-breaking. When fighting a rogue in melee combat, the most important strategy is to keep yourself as mobile as possible, and to not let him flank you for the sneak attack damage. Now a mid to high level rogue can easily Tumble into a flank and deliver his full attack routine every single round. Specialist archers (but not, rangers, apparently...) can take a move action to retreat from advancing enemies and then use full attacks with Rapid Shot to pepper their foes that are trying to advance on them. Even with the advancing side taking double moves to the archers single moves, it is still quite possible that the archers could easily kill them before their targets can close to melee.

    IV. Feats

    Weapon Finesse is no longer a Feat. It is a property of light weapons, rapiers, whips, or spiked chains made for a creature of your size category. If you are proficient with these weapons, you may use your dex modifier instead of you strength modifier on attack rolls.

    Powerful Maneuvers: Cleave, Imp. Bull Rush, Imp. Overrun, and Imp. Sunder are merged into the feat Powerful Maneuvers. You still need Power Attack as a prereq for this feat. This feat acts as if it was the feat it replaces for all purposes.

    Deft Maneuvers: Improved Disarm, Feint, and Trip are merged into the feat Deft Maneuvers. You still need Combat Expertise as a prereq for this feat. This feat acts as if it was the feat it replaces for all purposes

    Dodge: Dodge and Mobilty are merged into Dodge. Dodge provides a +1 bonus which increases by +1 every 5 levels(1-4th +1, 5-9th +2, etc...)

    Two Weapon Fighting: Improved Two-weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting are merged into Two Weapon fighting. You gain the the effects of the feats as you meet their prerequisite. So if you took Two weapon fighting at 3rd level, if you had a Dex of 17 and your BAB became +6, you would be able to make an extra attack with your off hand at a -5 penalty.
    While I don't disagree with the principle of condensing some of the combat feats together, it bothers me when it is combined with the measure of giving non-magic classes four additional feats everyone else. This will in turn make various useful quality of life feats, such as Improve Initiative, Skill Focus, Combat Reflexes, or Mage Slayer gimmies on almost every character.

    V. Skills

    Stealth: Hide and Move Silently are merged into the Stealth skill

    Athletics: Climb, Jump, and Swim are merged into Athletics Skill

    Acrobatics: Tumble, Escape Artist, Balance are merged into Acrobatics

    Perception: Spot and Listen are merged into Perception

    Finesse: Disable Device, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand are merged into Finesse
    This additionally exacerbates the mechanical advantages handed to various mundane classes. In addition to the extra skill points, they can now spread them around to extra places they wouldn't be able to, which not only makes feats like Knowledge Devotion a gimmie on such characters, it also takes away out-of-combat jobs from classes who used to specialize in that thing. An archivist who was once relegated to digging up information for the party no longer would have that role to play as basically anyone can now do it. Though whether or not this is a good or bad thing I suppose is a matter of perspective.

    In my personal opinion, implementing ALL of these changes at once is going too far. I don't doubt that a couple of tweaks would make the game more interesting by opening up options for non-spellcasters, but you are taking a sledgehammer to the rules without considering some of the deeper ramifications, which will lead to unintended consequences.



    In addition to my recommendation for a clearly defined and fully inclusive list of what counts as "access to magic" as well as the clarifications for Flurry of Blows, my only other direct suggestion would be to make the extra damage on bows that Rangers get, as well as the damage from the Deadly Agility feat subject to the same rules as precision damage. This would stop it from totally devaluing Strength based builds, since as it stands Dexterity would now count for attack, damage, Armor Class, and Reflex saves, more or less turning Dex-based builds into a one-stat class. Which if I am not mistaken is the main complaint regarding primary spellcasters.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
    This additionally exacerbates the mechanical advantages handed to various mundane classes. In addition to the extra skill points, they can now spread them around to extra places they wouldn't be able to, which not only makes feats like Knowledge Devotion a gimmie on such characters, it also takes away out-of-combat jobs from classes who used to specialize in that thing. An archivist who was once relegated to digging up information for the party no longer would have that role to play as basically anyone can now do it. Though whether or not this is a good or bad thing I suppose is a matter of perspective.
    Skills can't even begin to compete with magic without feat support, so having 50 skills where 25 would do is a disservice to an skill-based character. Magic-users don't care and just carry on with their spells.

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    This will in turn make various useful quality of life feats, such as… Skill Focus… gimmies on almost every character
    Is this what you meant to write?

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
    Specialist archers (but not, rangers, apparently...) can take a move action to retreat from advancing enemies and then use full attacks with Rapid Shot to pepper their foes that are trying to advance on them. Even with the advancing side taking double moves to the archers single moves, it is still quite possible that the archers could easily kill them before their targets can close to melee.
    I'd actually call this a plus. For me, it feels like a boost to 3.5's Verisimilitude. Ranged weapons have this exact advantage over melee weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant12 View Post
    I'm assuming +dex bonus to damage instead of +str bonus, both is likely too much. Might call that out.
    Bows in 3.5 don't deal STR damage unless you are using a Composite bow.

    I'd accept arguments from either side how these rules would handle rangers using Composite bows.

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    As others have commented, dying is too hard.
    By level 5ish everyone with Good Fort saves will autostabilize.

    Your hitpoint total (a negative number) should modify the save at a minimum. So when you bash a guy to -30 he dies.
    And save again every time you take damage, plus the check on your turn.

    The casting vs standard full attacks is awkward. You have to add exceptions for ranger/paladin casting. And melee types who dip a single level of Cleric for travel devotion. And dozens of other cases.

    How about "A full attack is a standard action if your BAB is at least twice the highest level of spell/power/maneuver known"?
    Bards would qualify, but not a Sublime Chord.

    A gish might manage it carefully, but I don't think he could get 9ths. +19 and 9ths is hard.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
    I'm basing these questions on the assumption that this rule only applies to characters who were at positive hit points and reduced to -10 hit points in a single hit.(Correct)

    A. Are the normal dying and stabilization rules still in effect? (I.E.: when reduced to -1 through -9 you still become unconscious and roll stabilization checks)
    B. If a character becomes stable at -10 or below, or conscious and disabled at that same number, what happens to his hit points? Per the current rules, characters with less than -9 HP are dead.

    Normal dying and stabilization rules are in effect. I've added a line to state that you return to -9hp if you make the save.

    This phrasing feels very loaded to me.
    For starters, you definitely need a fully inclusive list on what counts as "equivalent" to magic for the purposes of this rule.
    Secondly, you also need to clearly define what counts as access to magic. After all, a Rogue 20 with max ranks in Use Magic Device certainly has "access" to magic, even though it's not a class feature. Another scenario worth considering involves classes like Chameleon, who even without ranks in UMD can selectively have access to magic on a daily basis.
    Finally, this is an unintentional nerf to build types that are very feat starved but have access to magic as an incidental, such as the stock Swift Hunter build of Scout 4/Ranger 16.


    *looks around for "attached"*
    >.>
    <.<
    ...Uhh....

    Yea, this is for my players. You could probably do a search for "Fighter 2.0 pathfinder" and it should show up.

    This is the first thing on the list that made my head snap up on reading it.
    How does the monk function under this rule? Does this mean that the monk, now with full BAB, takes his entire attack routine for the round as a standard action? Do you only get a two attacks when you flurry; one for the normal standard action melee attack, plus one extra for flurry (which turns into two extra for Greater Flurry at Monk 11?). Is this now an entirely separate action that can no longer be used as part of a full attack action? This feels like a one line change for something that would require a full rewrite.

    I guess this makes the Full Attack action worthless for monks after 9th level?

    The first question I have is whether or not this would preclude a druid from taking the Wild Cohort feat. If not, then that feat will likely replace Natural Spell as the "required" feat for all druid builds.

    I'd have to think about it.

    For starters this has the same problem as the first rule; "gains access to magic" needs to be more rigidly defined as to whether that would include characters with ranks in Use Magic Device and special circumstances like Chameleon, or even characters in possession of magic items (does someone wearing a Ring of Invisibility also not have "access" to magic?). I next want to question why they even bothered to call out Paladins and Rangers on that list. They both gain access to their respective spell lists two full levels before they get a second attack from their good BAB.

    Adjusted


    Additionally, this is a massive buff to rogues and ranged combat. Potentially game-breaking. When fighting a rogue in melee combat, the most important strategy is to keep yourself as mobile as possible, and to not let him flank you for the sneak attack damage. Now a mid to high level rogue can easily Tumble into a flank and deliver his full attack routine every single round. Specialist archers (but not, rangers, apparently...) can take a move action to retreat from advancing enemies and then use full attacks with Rapid Shot to pepper their foes that are trying to advance on them. Even with the advancing side taking double moves to the archers single moves, it is still quite possible that the archers could easily kill them before their targets can close to melee.

    This is on purpose

    While I don't disagree with the principle of condensing some of the combat feats together, it bothers me when it is combined with the measure of giving non-magic classes four additional feats everyone else. This will in turn make various useful quality of life feats, such as Improve Initiative, Skill Focus, Combat Reflexes, or Mage Slayer gimmies on almost every character.

    I'm ok with that.

    This additionally exacerbates the mechanical advantages handed to various mundane classes. In addition to the extra skill points, they can now spread them around to extra places they wouldn't be able to, which not only makes feats like Knowledge Devotion a gimmie on such characters, it also takes away out-of-combat jobs from classes who used to specialize in that thing. An archivist who was once relegated to digging up information for the party no longer would have that role to play as basically anyone can now do it. Though whether or not this is a good or bad thing I suppose is a matter of perspective.

    I'm also OK with this.

    In my personal opinion, implementing ALL of these changes at once is going too far. I don't doubt that a couple of tweaks would make the game more interesting by opening up options for non-spellcasters, but you are taking a sledgehammer to the rules without considering some of the deeper ramifications, which will lead to unintended consequences.

    MWAH HA HA HA HA!!!!(Can this be the official color for Chaotic Evil?)


    In addition to my recommendation for a clearly defined and fully inclusive list of what counts as "access to magic" as well as the clarifications for Flurry of Blows, my only other direct suggestion would be to make the extra damage on bows that Rangers get, as well as the damage from the Deadly Agility feat subject to the same rules as precision damage. This would stop it from totally devaluing Strength based builds, since as it stands Dexterity would now count for attack, damage, Armor Class, and Reflex saves, more or less turning Dex-based builds into a one-stat class. Which if I am not mistaken is the main complaint regarding primary spellcasters.

    Hmmm......
    Thank you for taking the time to respond to all these points!


    Thanks for the rewording, Elkad!

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    You could just use multi-quote for that.

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladar View Post
    MWAH HA HA HA HA!!!!(Can this be the official color for Chaotic Evil?)
    It can, but Red Fel kind of has made Purple standard for evil.

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    It can, but Red Fel kind of has made Purple standard for evil.
    Red Fel is much more a Lawful Evil than a Chaotic Evil, though.
    Last edited by Hellpyre; 2018-01-03 at 04:54 PM.

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    Default Re: PEACH these House rules for 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    It can, but Red Fel kind of has made Purple standard for evil.
    If memory serves, Thealtruistorc actually made some shade of green the standard for CE. So... Mission retroactively accomplished?

    Of course, whatever color you choose to use to express yourself is entirely up to you. I certainly wouldn't dictate how you should use your fonts. I certainly wouldn't become possessive of what is obviously a superior alignment and obviously a superior color choice for said alignment. I certainly wouldn't do something unspeakable to those who overstepped the bounds of decorum by violating what I would consider to be set-in-stone color palette decisions.

    Certainly not.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

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