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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_...d_25_point_buy

    Hers the 18bab/18 caster build I keep mentioning.
    I must be missing something. Why does the build need Aereni Focus and thus need to be Elf?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by DEMON View Post
    I must be missing something. Why does the build need Aereni Focus and thus need to be Elf?
    Makes a skill into a class skill, presumably regardless of what class you're currently taking. I can definitely see that being useful for a Sublime Chord build, which has skill pre-reqs that seem to be based on taking Bard or another high-skill class all the way into it; if you're dipping martial classes or most other Gish PrCs, you're giving up a lot of the skill points you need to get into Sublime Chord. Original poster of the build may also have the misunderstanding that the Skill Focus aspect of it would count towards the PRC qualification.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    I dont know. It actually looks like a solid build until I look up the Sublime Chord until I see it needs 48 skill ranks in 5 class skills. Not impossible, even easy with 24 from level 1 bard I think.

    Star Elf has +2 charisma and favored class is Bard.
    Humans have extra skill points which makes it far easier to reach 48.

    I think Aereni Focus and Knowledge Devotion make class skills permanent, regardless of current class. That would be key to reaching full requirements.
    Last edited by Chaosticket; 2018-01-02 at 07:39 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Makes a skill into a class skill, presumably regardless of what class you're currently taking. I can definitely see that being useful for a Sublime Chord build, which has skill pre-reqs that seem to be based on taking Bard or another high-skill class all the way into it; if you're dipping martial classes or most other Gish PrCs, you're giving up a lot of the skill points you need to get into Sublime Chord.
    I understand that, but there are way better options to pull it off.

    Able learner does it way better and also gives you +1 skill point (if human).
    And, of course, Going Brd 1 / Pal 2 / Brd +3 handles the skill ranks without the need of any feats. Okay, now I get it, it's because Abjurant Champion, nor Eldritch Knight get Listen and you need to have that skill maxed. That's what I was missing. Still, Able Learner works.
    Maybe Harmonious Knight (Paladin ACF; CoV), which fits thematically and gives the Pally a useful class skill. Milil is an acceptable option for Paladins of Freedom, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Original poster of the build may also have the misunderstanding that the Skill Focus aspect of it would count towards the PRC qualification.
    That would explain it, if it's the case. While incorrect, one can see the logic behind that.
    Last edited by DEMON; 2018-01-02 at 07:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    The two hardest requirements Sublime Chord build are knowledge(arcana) and listen. They need to be 13 before level 11 meaning they need to be class skills for the higher rank cap.

    Knowledge Devotion explicitly carries over. Aereni Focus is a probably.

    Skill focus doesnt work as it doesnt make it a class skill.
    Able learner is good as it doubles cross-skill points' points to ranks but doesnt actually make Listen or Arcana class skills.

    Im going to look for an alternative to Aereni Focus as that is setting specific.
    Last edited by Chaosticket; 2018-01-02 at 08:22 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    The two hardest requirements Sublime Chord build are knowledge(arcana) and listen. They need to be 13 before level 11 meaning they need to be class skills for the higher rank cap.

    Knowledge Devotion explicitly carries over. Aereni Focus is a probably.
    For purposes of max rank, if a skill has ever been a class skill it is treated as a class skill - otherwise, you would have the potential for weird situations where you multiclass and your skills immediately become illegal. When leveling, whether it's in class or cross-class determines how many points you'll pay for it. Able Learner makes it so you always pay the in-class rate for skill ranks, so the distinction between in-class and cross-class is much less relevant; if it's ever been a class skill for you, Able Learner lets you continue treating it as one in any way that matters.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Okay so how about

    Spoiler
    Show

    Human, level 1 bonus Feat: Able Learner

    1 bard 1 open feat
    2 bard 2
    3 bard 3 open feat
    4 bard 4
    5 paladin of Freedom 5
    6 paladin of Freedom 6 Combat Casting
    7 abjurant champion 1
    8 abjurant champion 2
    9 abjurant champion 3 open feat
    10 abjurant champion 4
    11 sublime chord 1
    12 abjurant champion 5 open feat
    13 eldritch knight 1
    14 eldritch knight 2
    15 eldritch knight 3 open feat
    16 eldritch knight 4
    17 eldritch knight 5
    18 eldritch knight 6 open feat
    19 eldritch knight 7
    20 eldritch knight 8



    level 1 Bonus: Able Learner
    level 12 bonus combat:


    Some alternate choices I can think of by swapping out Eldritch knight and/or Abjurant Champion are 1 level of Spellsword for the small Arcane Failure reduction(useful with some Mithril armors), a 2nd level of Sublime Chord for Song of Arcane Power without losing BAB.
    Last edited by Chaosticket; 2018-01-02 at 09:56 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Okay so how about

    Spoiler
    Show
    Human, level 1 bonus Feat: Able Learner

    1 bard 1 open feat
    2 bard 2
    3 bard 3 open feat
    4 bard 4
    5 paladin of Freedom 5
    6 paladin of Freedom 6 Combat Casting
    7 abjurant champion 1
    8 abjurant champion 2
    9 abjurant champion 3 open feat
    10 abjurant champion 4
    11 sublime chord 1
    12 abjurant champion 5 open feat
    13 eldritch knight 1
    14 eldritch knight 2
    15 eldritch knight 3 open feat
    16 eldritch knight 4
    17 eldritch knight 5
    18 eldritch knight 6 open feat
    19 eldritch knight 7
    20 eldritch knight 8



    level 1 Bonus: Able Learner
    level 12 bonus combat:

    Some alternate choices I can think of by swapping out Eldritch knight and/or Abjurant Champion are 1 level of Spellsword for the small Arcane Failure reduction(useful with some Mithril armors), a 2nd level of Sublime Chord for Song of Arcane Power without losing BAB.
    If you take the 1st Eldritch Knight level before going Sublime Chord, you can max that class' caster progression at the cost of another lost level of Bard spellcasting.

    Also going Bard / Paladin / more Bard / everything else can help you keep a few more skills at higher ranks before moving on to prestige classes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    I may be wrong, but Eldritch Knight doesnt have its individual spell list, its increases whatever one arcane class already taken by the character by +1 at each prestige level from EK 2-10.

    I would choose all prestige casting bonus levels to go to Bard before level 11 and after the Sublime Chord is taken redirect all future boosts to it. They all stack caster levels so its effectively Bard 8+Sublime Chord 10=18 for total caster level.

    In particular the Sublime Chord can pick spells from the Bard or Wizard/Sorcerer List.

    So Its not a Wizard in variety of spells or a Sorcerer in sheer number, but it still got a lot.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Cleric 20 has 15 BAB without Divine Power. You need e.g. Knight of the Raven, Ordained Champion, Ruby Knight Windicator or company to hit 16 BAB on a divine caster without using buffs or such, thus losing casting.
    There are 5 full BAB/full casting classes according to Troactid's list.

    Windwalker advances divine only and works on a cleric.
    Sacred Fist advances divine only but it has a monster feat tax. It's 10 levels rather than 3 if you are a text-trumps-table person.

    Hexer advances divine or arcane although entries are oddball. Maybe easiest with an archivist entry?
    Verdant Lord advances divine or arcane although the wilderness lore requirement makes it subject to DM fiat.

    Abjurant Champion is the sole arcane only class and it lasts for only 5 levels.

    Sacred Fist & Abjurant Champion are 3.5 while the others are 3.0.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    I may be wrong, but Eldritch Knight doesnt have its individual spell list, its increases whatever one arcane class already taken by the character by +1 at each prestige level from EK 2-10.
    Poor wording on my side. By taking EK 1 (that does not increase spellcasting) before going SC, you will be able to max SC's spellcasting. It's not about the caster level, but the spells per day and spells known.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    I would choose all prestige casting bonus levels to go to Bard before level 11 and after the Sublime Chord is taken redirect all future boosts to it. They all stack caster levels so its effectively Bard 8+Sublime Chord 10=18 for total caster level.
    Sublime Chord sets caster level = Sublime Chord level + one spellcaster level. The spellcaster here is bard, so it sets caster level to 5 (=4 levels of bard + 1 level of Sublime Chord). The prestige classes advancing Sublime Chord add to this caster level for Sublime Chord implying a caster level of 13=5+1(AC)+7(EK). The bard casting similarly benefits, getting a caster level of 9=5+4(AC).

    If you want to stack caster levels directly, you need something like Theurgic Specialist or Psiotheurge.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Okay I double checked it trying to understand what you mean.

    Getting Eldritch Knight 1 before Sublime Chord means +1 Bard and -1 Sublime Chord level. Thanks for bringing that up.

    Edit: Lots of math

    Okay error, total caster level is 17 because of 2 levels of Paladin of Freedom and 1 level of Eldritch Knight(the dead level).

    Also reading, the Sublime Chord spells should use the total caster level, but the Bard's should stop at level 10 when It stops using prestige classes to increase it Bard spellcasting level. Is that correct?

    Edit again: I read it yet again and no the "the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes" do use the total caster level.
    Last edited by Chaosticket; 2018-01-02 at 11:01 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Never use Eldritch Knight with a spontaneous spellcaster such as Sorcerer, Bard, or Sublime Chord. Eldritch Knight gives you more spells per day and a higher caster level, but you never gain more spells known from levels of that class. That build may have 9th level spell slots, but it only has two 5th level spells known, the rest are lower. Replace Eldritch Knight with Knight Phantom and it may work, but get the fifth level of Abjurant Champion.

    Forget all about trying to use Sublime Chord to make a gish, it's a waste of time. Never, ever use dandwiki or similar wiki sites, they're filled with bad advice (Abjurant Champion 4 instead of 5), misunderstanding of the rules (Eldritch Knight on a Sublime Chord), and house rules presented as official material.

    Go for something a bit more simple, make a Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 8, you'll have a +18 BAB and 9th level spells at a caster level of 20th with Practiced Spellcaster.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    I didnt look up the important detail of spells known and now all that work is up in smoke. Knight Phantom is setting specific, so cant work with that.

    I remember I ended up with the same problem with the Mystic Theurge in Pathfinder using a Sorcerer/Oracle.

    So Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion dont add spells known. They could still work with a wizard.

    Sublime Chord is still appealing as is in terms of other classes it technically only requires 1 level of Bard and can potentially get up to tier 9 spells. Trying to get the right combination of Arcane class with enough skills and BAB is hard.

    edit: Basic combo is still Wizard 5/Fighter(or other martial) 1 then use Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion. Should get 17 BAB and 18 Caster Level.
    Last edited by Chaosticket; 2018-01-03 at 03:16 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    So Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion dont add spells known. They could still work with a wizard.
    Abjurant Champion does add to spells known. You could also use Pathfinder's Eldritch Knight; which explicitly also adds to spells known.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Most dms i have played with consider the lack of spells known asvancment in some prcs that advance spellcasting to be an ommision by mistake and allow them to advance spells known. Ask your dm.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Okay at this point you may have figured out I don't want to have to use 3rd party, homebrew, or GM permission on questionable rules. Basically an idiotproof build.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Okay at this point you may have figured out I don't want to have to use 3rd party, homebrew, or GM permission on questionable rules. Basically an idiotproof build.
    Human, Able Learner feat.

    Bard 4 / Crusader 1 / Spellsword 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 4 / Sublime Chord 4 / JPM +1 / Abjurant Champion 5.

    BAB: 17
    CL: No idea, too drunk to calculate, but you do have full SC spellcasting.

    This requires some skill joggling to qualify for all the prestige classes, but with Able Learner (and the extra skill point from being human), this should be perfectly doable.

    I did a stub up to level 10 and had ~10 skill points free on top of all the pre-reqs.
    The build had: Arc 13, Lis 13, Perf 10, Splc 7, Conc 9, Prof 6, Hist 2, Reli 2 which should amount to 59 skill points out of 69 total (Human, Int 10; higher Int recommended).
    Last edited by DEMON; 2018-01-03 at 05:53 PM. Reason: Typo, extra info, beer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Ill need to look up Book of the Nine Swords to check that.

    Abjurant Champion at level 5 has Martial Arcanist, matching Caster Level with BAB(thought not other way around).
    Last edited by Chaosticket; 2018-01-03 at 08:08 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Even with Abjurant Champion 5, your caster level can be higher than your BAB. The point of getting five levels in the class is to add +5 to the AC bonus of your abjuration spells (and Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor, which it specifically mentions as being affected), and being able to cast 3rd level abjurations as a swift action. Plus the fifth level gives you BAB, spellcasting, and a d10 HD, it's better than another level of most other classes.

    Go ahead and use Eldritch Knight, but with a Wizard-based gish. Go Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight 9/ Abjurant Champion 5 in that order, you miss out on eight levels of learning new Wizard spells for free, but you can always spend (spell level x 50 gp) plus the page count (get a Blessed Book so every spell is one page) to learn as many spells as you want.

    Feel free to change up that build a bit even. Make it start Human Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Martial Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1 instead. Replace Eldritch Knight 9 with Eldritch Knight 7/ Paragnostic Apostle 2, you lose one point of BAB but you'll still be at +17 by 20th level, and that's two more levels of free spells learned. You want to say the Eldritch Knight levels were earned as early as possible because you'll miss out on fewer free high level spells that way, lower level spells are cheaper to buy.

    Otherwise just go with a Cleric build. A Human Cleric of Zarus 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10 with DMM: Persistent isn't setting-specific and it can have all kinds of buffs on all day: Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Stormrage, Greater Visage of the Deity, Choose Destiny, etc. Start with the Strength and War domains, trade the Strength domain's power for Divine Restoration in Dungeonscape. Pick up the Oracle, Law, and Destiny domains from prestige classes. Get Extra Turning and Craft Rod to make your own Nightsticks, their effect isn't expressed as a bonus so having more than one will stack. Take Power Attack, since his favored weapon is a greatsword.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Have you considered Psionics? (Illithid) Slayer gives 9/10 Advancement, and Full BAB: Ardent gives Full Manifesting and 3/4 BAB, along with the ability to not expend focus on a particular mantle and gets access to Anticipatory Strike, Time Hop, (best way to enter a room with a closed door, ever), Synchronicity, etc. Linked Power hilarity also

    You can go full ridiculous, and use the wording of the Spell To Power Erudite and the Wyrm Wizard to argue any Arcane or Divine Spell is thus a Psionic Power, and eligible for being selected as part of either Expanded Knowledge feat or the Substitute Powers ACF, letting you customize any mantle as appropriate.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    A Cleric persisting spells seems like the most straightforward approach. Their spells are not as flashy, but if you look around enough there are plenty of good ones for combat. I made a cleric list here.

    If you go with a good alignment instead, you can benefit from Sacred Exorcist to get 2 turning pools (= twice the persistent spells) by starting out with the Rebuke Dragons ACF (Dragon Magic). If you take Extra Turning 7 times, each turning pool can support about 5 persistent spells (=(7*4+3+Charisma bonus+minor items)/7) implying 10 spells can be persisted each day. If you take rods of extend spell (which are relatively cheap), you can double that number to 20 by casting 10 extended persistent spells per day. You can make your spells effectively undispellable by using a prayer bead of karma (20k gp), an ankh of ascension (9k gp), and a bard friend casting Hymn of Praise (level 3) and Harmonic Chorus (level 2) to raise caster level by 12 during your daily buffing session.

    None of the above has any questionable interpretation. Your BAB ends up at 20 with persisted divine power and you have full spell access throughout the build. You can always use heavy armor.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Okay let me understand. You traded all your feats so you can make one spell almost permanent and the function of that one spell is to raise your BAB to your character level.

    Thats a hefty trade as by that point the spell would last quite a while.

    Havent really gone into Divine Gish as they already have most necessary abilities. Still multiclass Divine would be interesting.

    Mystic Theurge is interesting but also a trap unless you play to level 30.

    Arcane Hierophant is better as even basic build keeps the Druids main features.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Okay let me understand. You traded all your feats so you can make one spell almost permanent and the function of that one spell is to raise your BAB to your character level.

    Thats a hefty trade as by that point the spell would last quite a while.

    Havent really gone into Divine Gish as they already have most necessary abilities. Still multiclass Divine would be interesting.

    Mystic Theurge is interesting but also a trap unless you play to level 30.

    Arcane Hierophant is better as even basic build keeps the Druids main features.
    I'm not sure you understand how Divine Metamagic works.

    You spend feats on Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell, and if necessary Extra Turning and Craft Rod. That's five feats. You can get the feat prerequisite for Divine Oracle by saying you visited the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel and paying a few thousand gold.

    In many cases a character can take two flaws from Unearthed Arcana (more choices of flaws are available in various Dragon magazine issues) to get two additional feats. As a Human, with two flaws, you have ten feats by 20th level, that costs you no more than five of them. You don't have feat taxes like Practiced Spellcaster or Combat Casting.

    There's no limit to the number of persistent spells you can have on your character at once, apart from the resources it takes to cast them.

    Nightsticks are in Libris Mortis, each one you possess effectively functions as the Extra Turning feat, allowing you to turn/rebuke undead four more times each day. You can buy/craft ten of those and be able to turn/rebuke undead 43+Cha times per day. It takes seven to use DMM: Persistent, so you can have six, maybe seven different persistent spells on you every day:

    Divine Power: +6 Str (enhancement), BAB equal to character level.
    Choose Destiny (Destiny domain, Races of Destiny): Roll every d20 twice and use the better roll.
    Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium): Effectively puts Haste on yourself and the rest of your party all day every day, with an extra +3 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls.
    Stormrage (Spell Compendium): Fly speed 40, immunity to thrown weapons and projectile attacks, immunity to natural and magical wind effects, and you can shoot bolts of lightning from your eyes as often as you want. Just being outright immune to all ranged weapons that aren't spells is a good enough reason to use this one, the rest is icing on the cake.
    Greater Visage of the Deity (Spell Compendium): Gain the Half-Celestial (if good) or Half-Fiend (if evil) template for the duration of the spell, easily replaced if you find something you like more.
    Righteous Might: Nerfed in the errata, but still decent, especially since it lasts all day.
    Shield of Law: Buffs yourself and your party with +4 to AC and saving throws, immunity to compulsion effects, and if a chaotic creature hits your character in melee they're affected by a Slow spell.
    Ice Axe (Spell Compendium): If you're into that. You should be able to buff it with Greater Magic Weapon, you can Power Attack with it and any extra damage will be more cold damage.

    Plus there are plenty of hour/level and 24-hour buffs you can use:
    Heroes' Feast: Immunity to poison and fear effects for your whole party.
    Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment: Buff your weapon, armor, and (animated) shield to +5 all day every day without spending any gold on it.
    Superior Resistance: +6 to saving throws.
    Energy Immunity: Immune to one of the five energy types.

    Get a 6th level Pearl of Power and a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity twice, use the pearl to cast it three times with the rod so each lasts 48 hours. On the days in between prepare Energy Immunity and Superior Resistance each once, cast those with the rod and use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity again, those last 48 hours. All day every day you're immune to all five energy types, and you've got a +6 resistance bonus to your saving throws, for two 6th level spells each day and the cost of those two items.

    Be sure you have all of the Necessary Magic Items either from magic items or from your spells.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2018-01-05 at 02:30 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Okay let me understand. You traded all your feats so you can make one spell almost permanent and the function of that one spell is to raise your BAB to your character level.
    As BF says---not sure you are appreciating persistent spell effectively. Reiterating in a different way, the adventuring day buff statistics for the Favored Soul I linked are probably to overpowered for your game.
    Spoiler: buff statistics
    Show

    LE Medium Outsider [good, cold]
    Darkvision 60' + see in magical darkness (True Seeing at will) + Spot 22 (much higher with Owl's Insight+29, Divine Inspiration+15, Benediction+20)
    AC 69 (Dex+5, Armor+10, Shield+7, Deflect+21, Sacred+5, Natural Armor+4, Luck+3, Insight+2, Dodge+2)
    Fort 38 (FS+12, Con+8, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+2) + Immune unless harmless or affects objects
    Refl 40 (FS+12, Dex+5, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+5, Insight+2)
    Will 36 (FS+12, Wis+4, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+2, Iron Will+2) + Immune Mind-affecting
    Initiative +5
    Ranged Touch attack+49 (base attack+20, Dex+5, Enhance+21, Luck+3) for 30 Fire (45 vs evil) or 5d6 Acid (x1.5 vs evil)
    Melee attacks+115 (base attack+20, Str+71, Enhance+21, Luck+3) for by-weapon damage
    Caster level 50/60(buffs) (20 base +29 Consumptive Field+4 Prayer Bead:Karma+4 Ankh of Ascension+1 Orange Ioun Stone+1 Robe of Arcane Might)
    Strength 156 (12+120 Consumptive Field+6 Enhance+4 Clawed Arm+8 Size+2 Sacred)
    Dexterity 22 (13+1 Inherent+6 Enhance)
    Constitution 26 (13+2 Inherent-1 Cerebrosis+6 Enhance+4 Size+2 Sacred)
    Intelligence 10
    Wisdom 18 (14 +4 Inherent) (+Owl's Insight)
    Charisma 32 (16 base, Enhance+6, Level+5, inherent+5)
    Immunity to Mind-Affecting, Paralysis, Stunning, Death, Suffocation, Poison, Sleep, Critical Hits, Non-lethal, Starvation, Massive Damage, Fort unless harmless or affects objects, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Physical Ability Damage, Cold, Fire, Acid, Electricity, Sonic, Death by Damage, Encumbering Magic, Grapple, Dazzle, Blindness, Spells, SLAs, and Su via Antimagic Field.

    ... and that was using Persistent Spell the hard way. Pick whichever subset is reasonable for your game.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Another example, I made a level 11 Cleric Charger that can one-shot a Hecatoncheires (the hardiest printed first party monster) with no loops, no Consumptive Field. Instead it uses the Southern Magician and Anyspells to persist Arcane spells. And the character is immune to damage and can do that more or less all day long. Persistent Spell just completely annihilates any sanity buff stacking has since suddenly your only restriction is having the spell available and it either being innately persistable or you turning it persistable (Reach Spell/Ocular Spell). Even without Reach/Ocular though, just buffstacking yourself to high heavens is absolutely insane numerically compared to any non-full caster.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2018-01-05 at 08:59 AM.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Dec 2017

    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Sorry I have to check the Cleric and Druid spell lists in 2nd, 3.5, and Pathfinder to understand some things.

    3.5 doesnt have the same power as 2nd edition spells. Harm and Heal arent the key spells that guarantee the Cleric a place. Slay Living is pretty good.

    In 3.5 Divine Favor, Divine Power and Haste actually stack unlike Pathfinder.

    Okay so this reinforces the Arcane Gish as it has more damage, crowd control, and key group buffs like Haste. If Im missing something feel free to instruct me and anyone else.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Sorry I have to check the Cleric and Druid spell lists in 2nd, 3.5, and Pathfinder to understand some things.

    3.5 doesnt have the same power as 2nd edition spells. Harm and Heal arent the key spells that guarantee the Cleric a place. Slay Living is pretty good.

    In 3.5 Divine Favor, Divine Power and Haste actually stack unlike Pathfinder.

    Okay so this reinforces the Arcane Gish as it has more damage, crowd control, and key group buffs like Haste. If Im missing something feel free to instruct me and anyone else.
    Eldariel's build uses 2 arcane spells, but divine casting is essential for access to persistent spells at a reasonable level in a campaign setting independent way. Without persistent spell, you'll need to ask the bad guys for a timeout while you buff before each combat and then cast the spells once per encounter (i.e. many times/day) to get the same benefits.

    If you want very broad spell access, you might consider an Archivist base. You'll have half as many persistent spells after taking a level of Sacred Exorcist but you'll get access to every divine spell (and access to the ability to make every spell divine via scribe scroll).
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Gish builds request

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Eldariel's build uses 2 arcane spells, but divine casting is essential for access to persistent spells at a reasonable level in a campaign setting independent way. Without persistent spell, you'll need to ask the bad guys for a timeout while you buff before each combat and then cast the spells once per encounter (i.e. many times/day) to get the same benefits.
    That said, a non-persisting (or brute force persisting for higher level stuff; on ECL 13-15 you can persist a lot of really powerful stuff the oldfashioned way, doubly so with Practical/Easy Metamagic) gish is still going to be very powerful compared to any non-caster when played appropriately. Natively all day buffs combined with swift action buffs and perhaps a round before you actually reach engagement distance or some other foreknowledge allows a buff or two and gives you very solid numbers. It does make stuff like Consumptive Field, Divine Power, etc. far less impressive though (but still very good). But yeah, both Arcane and Divine have great gish spells and generally you kinda doubledip either way (Polymorph, Wraithstrike and Bite of the WereX lines are way too good not to use as a divine gish and Divine Power is a staple on arcane gish builds, though divine buffs extend far beyond that point as evident in any number of the builds in this thread).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2018-01-05 at 05:32 PM.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

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