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Thread: Why are Werebears good?
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2018-01-01, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Why are Werebears good?
It always struck me as odd that they are good and wondered what the reasoning was? I am assuming someone agrees to become one in order to protect some area or tribe
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2018-01-01, 01:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
I'm guessing because Beorn from The Hobbit was a reasonably good-aligned guy, and that's what Gygax and the others were working off of.
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2018-01-01, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-01, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
The more interesting part is how many similarity you can still see in the werebears presented in W:tA, even though they are generation and genres away from LotR.
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2018-01-02, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
To an extent there are even older links. Older Bear-Warrior legends were from N European legend as In-Group members and used during battle vs say the werewolf legend where the were performing actions against the in-group (and thus evil)
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2018-01-02, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-02, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
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2018-01-02, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-03, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
Even more ironic when you take into account that Gygax was a MUCH bigger fan of and much more interested in ripping off pulp fantasy authors like Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft.
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2018-01-03, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
He ripped off a lot of Tolkein's set dressing in the end because somebody told him "hey, these books are popular and you might want to include them" while he was writing. In the end, he said he really wished he hadn't on some level because everybody assumed he'd just ripped off The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and sort of ignored the rest as time went by.
Werebears are good for a combination of The Hobbit, because of some old European legends, because he needed a balance to the other lycanthropes (hence were-ravens as well), and because it was cool. Does it need more explanation?It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.
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2018-01-03, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
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2018-01-04, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-04, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-04, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
So if you can't add something meaningful to the discussion, why are you posting?
Unless your argument is that no one can have any idea what the developers' reasoning was, in which case I'd have to disagree. The developers were very garrulous, sometimes stating outright what their reasons were, and other times just letting us infer it from the list of books they'd read that inspired them.Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
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2018-01-04, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
It is still a point. D&D brought in influences from many, many, many points of origins so stating that it was "Because Tolkien" seems a little weak. Particularly because while they did use Tolkien they also drew from his inspirations as well. There are many sources which one could draw good werebears from aside from Tolkien so one important question in terms of determining the origin is "where was the earliest mention of good werebears in D&D."
Last edited by Tinkerer; 2018-01-04 at 01:23 PM.
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2018-01-05, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
Beorn
evil werebears make for terrific monsters though, so by all means, make them up/use them, as other games have done.
Heck, over in middle earth, specificly MERP, it is entirely possible to have villainous characters like this: "Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength." (The Hobbit Chapter 18 The Return Journey).
MERP has them (& Beorn) as a subset of Northmen, a race called Beornings, Beijabar or Bajaegahar.
EDIT: weak or not, the answer to many an early D&D questions was "because Tolkien"
some varied myths to take from:
http://www.hotcakencyclopedia.com/ho...Man-Bears.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onikuma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungnyeo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JambavanLast edited by CE DM; 2018-01-05 at 10:48 PM.
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2018-01-07, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-07, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-08, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
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2018-01-09, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
Because Were Bears are Care Bears.
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2018-01-09, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
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2018-02-02, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
Gygax's claim that LotR isn't an essential part of D&D's roots really has to be taken in context of him getting sued by the Tolkein estate for copyright infringement. D&D's races are very clearly Tolkein, for starters, including Hobbits (I think they were even called that in the earliest printings), Orcs, Tolkein's mistake with Hobgoblins being larger goblins, distinguishing Elves and Dwarves at all, distinguishing them by "this one lives in the woods and thinks they're better than you, this one lives underground and loved gold".
Chainmail directly drew from a system designed to allow people to wargame out battles from Middle-Earth such as the Battle of the Five Armies
Does D&D owe a lot to Conan, The Dying Earth, Elric, Barsoom, etc.? Yes, absolutely. But the idea of a D&D world populated like a D&D world came from Tolkein.
Given that, I think the claim that Beorn is the archetype for the D&D Werebear is more than plausible.
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2018-02-03, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
I'm going to at least be slightly fair and say that Gygax's versions of elves leaning more towards the Chaotic Good side of the alignment tree rather than the Lawful end was probably a homage to the elves seen in Poul Anderson's novels, which came out more or less simultaneously with Tolkien's work. In fact, this is an elf described in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword:
He looked at her through the strange slant eyes of the elves, all cloudy-blue without whites or a readily seen pupil. There were little moon-flecks drifting in Imric’s eyes, and shadows of ancient knowledge, for he had dwelt long in the land. But he was ever youthful, with the broad forehead and high cheekbones, the narrow jaw and straight thin-chiselled nose of the elf lords. His hair floated silvery-gold, finer than spider silk, from beneath his horned helmet down to the wide red-caped shoulders.
“Not often of late lifetimes have the elves gone forth among men,” said the witch.
“Aye, we have been too busy in our war with the trolls,” answered Imric in his voice that was like a wind blowing through trees far away. “But now truce has been made, and I am curious to find what has happened in the last hundred years.”
“Much, and little of it good,” said the witch. “The Danes have come from overseas, killing, looting, burning, seizing for themselves much of eastern England and I know not what else.”
“That is not bad.” Imric stroked his moustache. “Before them, Angles and Saxons did likewise, and before them Picts and Scots, and before them the Romans, and before them Brythons and Goidels, and before them-but the tale is long and long, nor will it end with the Danes. And I, who have watched it almost since the land was made, see naught of harm in it, for it helps pass the time. I would fain see these newcomers.”
“Then you need not ride far,” said the witch, “for Orm the Strong dwells on the coast, distant from here by the ride of a night. Or less on a mortal horse.”
“A short trip for my stallion. I will go.”
“Hold-hold, elf!” For a while the witch sat muttering, and her eyes caught what light came from the tiny fire on the hearth, so that two red gleams moved amidst the smoke and shadows. Then of a sudden she cackled in glee and screamed, “Aye, ride, ride, elf, to Orm’s house by the sea. He is gone a-roving, but his wife will guest you gladly. She has newly brought forth a son, who is not yet christened.”
At these words Imric cocked his long, pointed ears forward. “Speak you sooth, witch?” he asked, low and toneless.
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2018-02-06, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
Another reference to LotR are Balrogs. Armed with whips of flame and a sword? At times there were also a very limited number of them just like in LotR (a specified number that is).
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2018-02-19, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-03-02, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-03-03, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2018-03-08, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
I think part of it may also be that culturally Bears are regarded as defensive fighters as opposed to active hunters. Obviously this isn't exactly accurate but it's a perception that tends to persist, in part due to bears size and tendency to hibernate over winter.
This perceptions makes bears into Guardians, contrasted with wolves who are culturally regarded as hunters. Guarding something is generally regarded as a "good" trait so by extension were-bears are good.
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2018-03-09, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are Werebears good?
I would have to agree with the lotR rip as I have never been able to find much on the concept of werebears before lotR
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