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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Ideally, you don't design scenarios in which the players need to be guided anywhere, and certainly not "tricked". You design them so the players are free to make their own choices, based on information you have provided them about the situation, and you allow the outcome of their choices to be dictated by the rules of the game and the rational reaction of the environment.

    If an event absolutely needs to happen in your game, you narrate it happening. Preferably, all the necessary narration happens at the beginning of the game or session, before you set the players free to engage with the scenario.

    So, for instance, if you want the players to go on a quest to fight a dragon and save the kingdom, you tell them that the game will be about a quest to fight a dragon and they should make characters that want to save the kingdom and maybe that know each other. Then you describe the setting and set-up to them, and let them figure out how to find and fight the dragon.

    You don't start out with four characters wandering into a town for unrelated reasons, and then try to contrive a convenient reason that they meet each other, and then contrive reasons why they have to stay together, and then contrive a reason why they would volunteer to go after a dragon, and then contrive a reason why they can't change their mind and abandon the quest.

    They need to be able to succeed or fail based on their choices. That's the game part of a role playing game. You aren't trying specifically to defeat them, but you also aren't letting them win. You are challenging them to figure out the scenario and to choose where and how to take risks and where to play it safe and the best way to use their game resources (character abilities and equipment, etc.). You can make the scenario as easy or as difficult as you want, but you don't control what happens.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    If you're going to provide examples, you should provide examples of what you say you're going to provide examples of.

    Neither of those is an example of a GM manipulating or tricking or deceiving players, or of a GM railroading players, or of a GM infringing on player agency.

    If you intend to be sarcastic, it's not helping the discussion.

    If someone has actually expressed those responses to those situations, it's because they don't understand what they're talking about and are using buzzwords to get their way.
    The entire message was sarcastic, but I'm not sure how to do blue text. Anyways, the examples were meant to show how stupid the argument that influencing players to go a certain way is taking away their agency.

    I agree that "trick" may not have been the best choice of words, but what the original poster was asking for was pretty clear. Definitely doesn't excuse the tidal wave of "I'm not going to help you because you want advice on how to do something 'deceptive' (give me a break...), so instead I will preach about how bad it is to deceive players!"

    The original poster made it clear all he wants is advice on how to discreetly lead the players to take a certain course of action.
    If you want to say how influencing players to take a certain path in a dungeon is "lying to your friends" (???) then do it somewhere else, THAT is what isn't helping the discussion.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    bc56's Avatar

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    Thumbs up Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnocius View Post
    The entire message was sarcastic, but I'm not sure how to do blue text. Anyways, the examples were meant to show how stupid the argument that influencing players to go a certain way is taking away their agency.

    I agree that "trick" may not have been the best choice of words, but what the original poster was asking for was pretty clear. Definitely doesn't excuse the tidal wave of "I'm not going to help you because you want advice on how to do something 'deceptive' (give me a break...), so instead I will preach about how bad it is to deceive players!"

    The original poster made it clear all he wants is advice on how to discreetly lead the players to take a certain course of action.
    If you want to say how influencing players to take a certain path in a dungeon is "lying to your friends" (???) then do it somewhere else, THAT is what isn't helping the discussion.
    Thanks so much again. I do admit trick is bad wording, but I couldn't think of a better choice. (I can now: convince).

    As I will repeat, I intended to pose a serious question, but almost all the answers I received were either sarcasm or "you're mean and evil because you manipulate your players."

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Be aware, the words you use to convince your players to make the choices you want them to make is going to be even more critical and important than the words you use to frame your question on this forum. So if you can't come up with the right words here, you'll have more trouble in front of your players.

    So, I suggest you don't use words to guide your players along the path you want, but you need to design your adventures to keep them going the way you want, or design them to deviate without harming your plot.

    I suggest you Google "Prepping plots" "jacquaying" and "five room dungeon". Lots of good advice there.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Quote Originally Posted by bc56 View Post
    Thanks so much again. I do admit trick is bad wording, but I couldn't think of a better choice. (I can now: convince).

    As I will repeat, I intended to pose a serious question, but almost all the answers I received were either sarcasm or "you're mean and evil because you manipulate your players."
    What you are after is a technique called illusionism. It simply is the appearance of choice where there is none

    If you need your players to go down path #A in a branching path then both paths lead to the same destination.

    If the group didnt go to the haunted house where you wanted them to go then you'll just place the haunted house elsewhere

    Just google illusionism and rpg and you'll find more on the subject
    Optimizing vs Roleplay
    If the worlds greatest optimizer makes a character and hands it to the worlds greatest roleplayer who roleplays the character. What will happen? Will the Universe implode?

    Roleplaying vs Fun
    If roleplaying is no fun then stop doing it. Unless of course you are roleplaying at gunpoint then you should roleplay like your life depended on it.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    bc56's Avatar

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    frown Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Due to the lack of useful replies, I, as OP, hereby disown this thread. I will not post anymore on this thread, nor will I check the thread. I advise everyone who is following this thread to leave it alone, because all your preaching on the "evil" of trying to help players achieve their objectives has only annoyed and bored me, not convinced me of your point. Don't bother posting on this thread in the future.

    I would like to heartily thank Ronnocius for his stalwart promotion of my original intent with this thread.

    Thank you also to Incorrect, LordEntrails, and Psyren for giving serious and helpful replies.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Quote Originally Posted by bc56 View Post
    Thank you also to Incorrect, LordEntrails, and Psyren for giving serious and helpful replies.
    You're welcome and all the best on future queries

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Hm. Too bad the OP left.

    I was going to say that, given the specific example of the locked door down corridor A, with the somewhat inobvious key down B, I'd let them go either way they want. When they have explored both, if they haven't already come to the conclusion on their own to do whatever backtracking is needed to re-examine things, I'd let them use skills to investigate.

    I might even go so far as to tell the lockpicking rogue that, now that he examines the lock, it looks a lot like that doohickey they saw down the other corridor might fit in it. Or offer Int checks for people to put it together.

    Generally, I wouldn't try to convince them to go to the door first, because even if they miss the inobvious key the first time, the CHARACTERS have seen it, so there are mechanics that justify reminding the PLAYERS of what their characters might remember/think of.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Darth Ultron's Avatar

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    Default Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Hm. Too bad the OP left.
    I know....I never got to add in my two coppers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I was going to say that, given the specific example of the locked door down corridor A, with the somewhat inobvious key down B, I'd let them go either way they want.
    So, for any others then the OP that might be wondering about this question and would like an answer without the predictable responses from the Everyone Collective:

    Now you can do the Segev way, otherwise known as the Time Filler Way. The DM just makes up random stuff and absurdity lets the amazing players just do whatever they want (''within reason'').

    So if you have two hallways with two locked doors....A leads to something, and B leads to nothing....the DM just sits back...maybe in another room, and takes no action what so ever...other then to react to what the players do. So if, the Most amazing players on the Planet decide they want to spend two hours trying to get through door B and find nothing.....the DM lets them. The DM should just sit back, smile and tell the players how great they are and be in awe.

    Now the above is a perfectly fine way to play the game, and it's very popular.....for some people.

    Not the way I do it of course:

    First off, why NOT be obvious? Hallway A is a well traveled and clean hallway with low burning torches set along the walls leading to a closed door with well oiled hinges and a good quality lock. Hallway B is full of spider webs, rubble and is dark with a closed door at the end with hinges rusted shut and a good lock on the door. Does one way seem more obvious? I like to go more with the: Way A is a plain stone hallway and Way B is a black stone hallway with the walls and floor covered in oddly wet blood that slowly flows around over the stones. Hum, is one more obvious?

    Of course...the real trick and secret about being obvious is that everyone has their own view point. What is ''obvious''? What is obvious to a DM, might not be obvious to a player....or even just one person to another.

    Second, there is no point in giving the players a choice if there is no choice for them to make. If you do, your just wasting time. At best your just filling up time. And why would you want to do that? So if you have two hallways just do: A leads to the adventure and B is a dull boring dead end with nothing at all in it. See, easy.

    Third, try and keep in mind there is no ''right'' way for the players to go....there is just the way they choose to go. And in a general sense as a DM you really want to be as neutral as possible about the way the players go....as long as they A)Are doing something meaningful and B)following the story adventure. Of course if your game has no story adventure, then it does not matter.


    So when you make things for an adventure don't think of it in ways right or wrong or ways to go and not go. Really, you want the characters to go everywhere. And with this in mind, make everywhere interesting. It is not 100% realistic, but then again the game is fiction anyway. So make every way interesting and every way a mix of good and bad....try to avoid all of both. You want a trap/treasure at every turn.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    kinglinus1's Avatar

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    Default Re: Subliminal Messaging

    Ooh Ooh I know this one!

    Put a ton of Neon Signs pointing in one direction... and make that the one you don't want them to go!

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