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Thread: Best Caster?

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Best Caster?

    Just give me your opinion on your favorite caster or the caster you think is the best.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    There is no "best caster," although there probably is a "best caster for X" for quite a few specific Xs. As for favorite, I am having a lot of fun with a Celestial Pact Tome Warlock. Short rest recharge, lots of cantrips to choose from and ritual magic from all classes is a lot of fun.

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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Iím biased towards Warlocks, but given my homebrewing a case could also be made for sorcerers.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2018-01-01 at 10:15 PM.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    I know the forums is a place for discussion but.... c'mon, this is just lazy.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinGuy View Post
    Just give me your opinion on your favorite caster or the caster you think is the best.
    Hi!
    There is no "best caster" per se but there are areas in which each shine.
    - Versatility: Druid (you don't need to rely on DM to give extra spells like Wizards, you get loads of spells of every different kind among which you can choose each day, plus rituals, and Wild Shaping).
    - Simplicity: Bard (semi-specialized in heal/debuff/utility, good enough number of spell known, can poach spells in any list to supplement, otherwise just Bardic Inspiration to manage).
    - Variety: Wizard (you rely on DM for extra spells, you're otherwise in-beween spontaneous and prepared, so you have to learn spells but among the largest spell list of all, and barring healing covers fairly well all kind of spells, with the best in AOE and utility. Plus School benefits which give a definitive difference).
    - Easiness (to play): Cleric (if you don't want to manage prepared spells, just use the short-list of spells that always work, and go to town with your decent to good AC and Domain short-rest perks).
    - Economy efficiency: Sorcerer (possibly hardest or second hardest to play mainly because of choices of spells and metamagic being tight together, but hands-down the best for someone who has no problem having only a few handful of spells).
    - Sustainable efficiency: Warlock (having only 2 slots per short rest for half career is hard to swallow, making it the other class which is hard to play, but you are a reliable force that also have, nevertheless, several free spells to complement, plus some of the coolest class abilities).

    Here for a very short, borderline oversimplistic view (detailed examination of archetype features would change some things significantly). ;)
    My personal favorites: Druid when only caster in a party (fallback Wizard if already several WIS-based classes), Sorcerer & specific Wizards otherwise.
    (I tend to only play gishes though when I'm not the only caster, so I usually mix Sorcerer and something else).
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-01-02 at 03:47 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Wizard is the best caster
    - They have the best caster features and the best spell list

    Cleric and Bard come at second
    - With very strong features and amazing spell lists

    Sorcerer and Druid are among the worst
    - With terrible features that aren't nearly as useful as the other casters, as well as a pretty gutted spell list


    Warlock is kinda outside the ranking, since they play very differently

    Xanathar did a lot to try to bring up Druid and Sorcerer, especially Druid that was previously the worst.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    By what metric?

    Lore Bard - Full-Caster. Gets to cherry pick eight of the best spells from all lists in the game. Gets to cast these as Bard Spells using CHA. Can be quite powerful.

    Druid - Full-Caster. Gets a lot of mileage/variety out of their spell list. Can eventually cast while wild-shaped allowing outstanding self-healing. Can be quite powerful.

    Cleric - Full-Caster. Armor and Weapon Selection may Vary, usually good though. Good saving throw proficiencies. Access to sub-class from level 1. Can be quite powerful.

    Sorcerer - Full-Caster. Great saving throw proficiencies but can get MAD quickly. Narrow spell-selection, but large number of spells/day with access to meta-magic. Access to sub-class from level 1. Can be quite powerful.

    Wizard - Full-Caster. Flexible. Can learn "all the spells" or next to nothing, flavor with familiar for added options. Can be quite powerful.

    It's difficult to make a judgement without having a set of standards, no matter how arbitrary, outlined by which to judge/compare the various classes.

    Warlock - Does it even belong on this list? Depends on what metrics we're measuring doesn't it?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    There's no such thing as "best caster" for all situations, so here's one designed for a caster duel, just off the top of my head:

    Fighter 4 / Bard 16 (Lore)
    5 ASIs: +2 Dex, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 Cha, Alert (Dex/Cha = 20)

    20 Dex gives you +5 Init
    Alert gives you +5 Init
    Jack of All Trades (Bard 2) let's you add half prof bonus to non-proficient checks which gives you +3 Init
    Peerless Skill (Bard 14) gives you +1d12 Init

    You have +13+1d12 Init total, which should hopefully ensure you go first.
    You have action surge, so you can get off two action-casting spells in the first round.
    If your opponent still gets to act, you can use your reaction to Counterspell, which uses an ability check, which therefore also benefits from Jack of All Trades and Peerless Skill, giving you 1d20+5+3+1d12 to beat a max DC of 19.

    Ta da! No more Draco Malfoy.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Best caster is a muscle wizard


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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Wizard is the best caster
    - They have the best caster features and the best spell list

    Cleric and Bard come at second
    - With very strong features and amazing spell lists

    Sorcerer and Druid are among the worst
    - With terrible features that aren't nearly as useful as the other casters, as well as a pretty gutted spell list



    Warlock is kinda outside the ranking, since they play very differently

    Xanathar did a lot to try to bring up Druid and Sorcerer, especially Druid that was previously the worst.
    Thanks to make my day with that comment, very funny. ;=)

    Don't hesitate to actually try and play those classes sometimes, preferably a day in which you feel energized so you can fully express your tactical wits and creativity. Because this is all thoses classes are about. :)

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    I feel like this thread needs to be re-titled to be "I'm truly curious about your opinion, but am going to start a fight"

    As others have said, there is no "best" there is a best for players/dms and a best for situations.


    For example, illusionists wizard can be extremely powerful characters. However, if you lack the ability (like I do) to use them effectively they aren't good.


    Personal, I like the Cleric spell list. You have choices, you can help your friends, and you don't need to keep as track of as much as you do for all the other caster classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnightJin View Post
    Play a Tabaxi caster with Gust, use the cantrips to knock stuff off of tables.
    I'm pretty sure my next character will be a Tabaxi Arcane Tricker Rogue with Gust and mage hand legerdemain specifically for this.
    Spoiler: Homebrew
    Show

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Thanks to make my day with that comment, very funny. ;=)

    Don't hesitate to actually try and play those classes sometimes, preferably a day in which you feel energized so you can fully express your tactical wits and creativity. Because this is all thoses classes are about. :)
    Oh
    I didn't know that Sorcerer had the best spell list.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Wizards are the best casters, due to the strength of their spell options and casting-support features.
    Druids are the best casters, because their class features let them fill a variety of roles in a party.
    Bards are the best casters, because they can learn any spell in the game.
    13th+ level Thief Rogues are the best casters, because they can use all the magic toys.


    But I think y'all can guess what me real answer is...
    Why yes, Warlock is my solution for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Active Abilities are great because you - the player - are demonstrating your Dwarvenness or Elfishness. You're not passively a dwarf, you're actively dwarfing your way through obstacles.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe the Rat View Post
    Wizards are the best casters, due to the strength of their spell options and casting-support features.
    Druids are the best casters, because their class features let them fill a variety of roles in a party.
    Bards are the best casters, because they can learn any spell in the game.
    13th+ level Thief Rogues are the best casters, because they can use all the magic toys.


    But I think y'all can guess what me real answer is...
    Is it Barbarian? Totem barbarians get free ritual spells.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Oh
    I didn't know that Sorcerer had the best spell list.
    I'm sorry for you, you seem to have a very serious sight trouble, because I never said such thing. I urge you to plan a medical visit ASAP, as doctors tend to be overloaded so you may still have to wait several weeks.

    I hope you get better soon.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    I'm sorry for you, you seem to have a very serious sight trouble, because I never said such thing. I urge you to plan a medical visit ASAP, as doctors tend to be overloaded so you may still have to wait several weeks.

    I hope you get better soon.
    How childish, then Druid has the best spell casting features (before Xanathar)

    What's that, you never said that either?

    Oh so Druid and Sorcerer has the worst spell casting feature and the worst spell list.
    Making them the worst spell casters in the game?

    Oh you're so cute, did you know that?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Easy_Lee's Avatar

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    I like sorcerers because you can build them to do one or two things exceptionally well, and they require above-average mechanical knowledge to play effectively. Both of those qualities appeal to me.

    Sorcerers are not for everyone. No class is. The best caster is the one YOU find the most fun in YOUR campaign with YOUR DM. Don't underestimate the impact that the campaign and DM have on class balance.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    How childish, then Druid has the best spell casting features (before Xanathar)

    What's that, you never said that either?

    Oh so Druid and Sorcerer has the worst spell casting feature and the worst spell list.
    Making them the worst spell casters in the game?

    Oh you're so cute, did you know that?
    You are the one acting like a 5-year child honestly, bringing personal opinions that basically say some classes are ****ty as absolute truth without even a draft of argumentation. ;)

    Moreover, the point was not "which one has the best spell list" but "which one is the best caster". Besides the fact that the question is devoid of any real interest, because each caster has its own strenghs making him better than other in some situations, it means that you have to evaluate a caster as a whole.

    Even putting that aside, each of those individual points you make...
    Spoiler: list
    Show

    * Sorcerer has the worst spelllist
    * Druid has the (I guess second?) worst spell list.
    * Sorcerer has the (I guess second?) worst features.
    * Druid has the worst features.

    Are, to say the least, extremely debatable.
    Also you're cute when trying to shield yourself behind a "pre-Xanathar". AFAIK, OP didn't restrict debate to PHB so all options are on the table.

    But you are obviously not here to try a constructive discussion, so I don't feel it worth to spend some time detailing my own arguments to defend the opposite opinion (obviously if other people want it I'll be glad to provide ;)).
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-01-02 at 01:35 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Cleric 1 (Life) - Sorcerer (Divine Soul from Xanathar's) X

    This can go a long distance. It's pretty versatile, it's good at healing as a baseline and you have access to Twinned Spell for Cleric spells.

    I plan on doing this class in the game I'm in as a player, in 3 games so far it has been doing fairly well. I planned ahead a bit and reserved enought Sorcerer slots for higher levels spell (Cleric 1 covers all my level 1 needs at long term).

    This is a pretty efficient caster, that act as a party face and has the Actor feat at level 1, (so it could be more optimized with a more optimal feat at level 1, but Actor to me is fairly good on this character).

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    There are many types of caster.

    The best gish build is still to me the Valor Bard. The magical mysteries gives Bard the ways of smite or Swift Quicker. Hexblade Warlock and Barbaric - Monkish Druid are also quite viable in their spots.

    In term of raw power... Sorcerer can go a long way.

    In terms of versatility... Wizards sit still on top of the pile.

    Cleric have the best healers. Cleric Life is a common level 1 dip that I advocate on any character that wants to heal as a main goal in the party.

    Only some classes get access to Counterspell.

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Oh
    I didn't know that Sorcerer had the best spell list.

    Hey hello to Divine Soul. Pick Sorcerer and Cleric spells and acess to wish.

    Firebolt/Eldritch Blast/Toll of Dead/ANY CANTRIP + Twin Sanctuary works really nice.
    Last edited by Texugo; 2018-01-02 at 04:39 PM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Texugo View Post
    Hey hello to Divine Soul. Pick Sorcerer and Cleric spells and acess to wish.

    Firebolt/Eldritch Blast/ANY CANTRIP + Twin Sanctuary works really nice.
    Sorcerer have access to twin. Twinning Haste is disgusting with the right group to profit from it. This simple deed is enough to set apart why Sorcerer are Sorcerer (Divine Soul only make things better).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    Sorcerer have access to twin. Twinning Haste is disgusting with the right group to profit from it. This simple deed is enough to set apart why Sorcerer are Sorcerer (Divine Soul only make things better).
    Also, It can fly as well. ^^

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Texugo View Post
    Also, It can fly as well. ^^
    Wings are a nice bonus. But the Cleric Spell List is so good. I mean... Silence at level 2 is quite good.

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    Wings are a nice bonus. But the Cleric Spell List is so good. I mean... Silence at level 2 is quite good.
    Silence + Subtle Spell Metamagic is amazing.

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    Easy_Lee's Avatar

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Texugo View Post
    Silence + Subtle Spell Metamagic is amazing.
    To this point, Subtle can make Sorcerers the best social casters. Most spells don't give the caster away, and a Subtle spell requires no words, no movement, nor even a glance in the target's direction by RAW. You only need line of sight to the target, and then you can mess with it.

    Combine with Disguise Self for a good time, provided your party is willing to sit back and let you work on occasion.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    To this point, Subtle can make Sorcerers the best social casters. Most spells don't give the caster away, and a Subtle spell requires no words, no movement, nor even a glance in the target's direction by RAW. You only need line of sight to the target, and then you can mess with it.

    Combine with Disguise Self for a good time, provided your party is willing to sit back and let you work on occasion.

    Sutble Spell Metamagic is the monopoly of "Stealth Mage" (Only sorcerers can do it). It is incomparable for social, direct combat (No Counterspell) and Sneak Mage / Stealth Mage.

    For me subtle spell is Tier S.
    Last edited by Texugo; 2018-01-02 at 05:17 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    To this point, Subtle can make Sorcerers the best social casters. Most spells don't give the caster away, and a Subtle spell requires no words, no movement, nor even a glance in the target's direction by RAW. You only need line of sight to the target, and then you can mess with it.

    Combine with Disguise Self for a good time, provided your party is willing to sit back and let you work on occasion.
    A subtle Suggestion can lead to a pretty fast way through a social situation without much backfire. The person is aware it has been charmed if it succeeds the saving throw... by who ?

    Subtle is great. It's another take on the sorcerer (the Face one who cares about her party's needs with buffs and debuffs and healing).

    Sorcerer have a lot of potential as dedicated healer - supports - face when you go the Divine Soul route.

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    A subtle Suggestion can lead to a pretty fast way through a social situation without much backfire. The person is aware it has been charmed if it succeeds the saving throw... by who ?

    Subtle is great. It's another take on the sorcerer (the Face one who cares about her party's needs with buffs and debuffs and healing).

    Sorcerer have a lot of potential as dedicated healer - supports - face when you go the Divine Soul route.
    Planar Ally + Heightein Planar Binding. Divine Soul Sorcerer is the best summoner.
    Summon Genies, Nightmare, Coault,Planetar others and laugh.

    Only Clerics and Divine Soul can do it, but The Divine Soul has doubled chances to succeful with Heightein Spell.
    Last edited by Texugo; 2018-01-02 at 06:06 PM.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    For me I rate sorcerer highest from about level 6 up till about level 12. At high levels the Wizard spell list just ends up being more powerful and most of the game changing effects happen outside of combat or against enemies with enough special abilities to shrug of some of the sorcerer's metamagic benefits. At low levels the shortage of sorcery points is an issue. At this level bard is also pretty awesome - level 6 ability is a big step up in power for both.

    I would rate cleric at the level 1 and 4 and 5 level to be the best. Healing is important when it is easy to drop dead. Low level cleric spells are some of the best. You are keeping getting bonus domain spells at this level. Spells prepared is huge, especially when they are more limited, as they are at the level. Access to more armour is good - although at the low levels plate is probably out of reach.

    At level 2 and 3 warlocks are awesome. At this level damage is king and warlocks can just keep churning it out all day. Pact features add a bit of extra something. Honourable mention to the early moon druid peak as well - although for me the extra range on eldritch blast is pretty significant.

    At level 13-19 wizard takes it. The total versatility they can pick up from high level rituals, campaign changing spells is magnificent. Sorcerer can compete for a long time though - more metamagic, more sorcery points, divine soul spells and eventually wish + metamagic.

    At level 20... moon druid. Even then it is close. High levels Wizards are that good.

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