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Thread: Best Caster?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texugo View Post
    Sutble Spell Metamagic is the monopoly of "Stealth Mage" (Only sorcerers can do it). It is incomparable for social, direct combat (No Counterspell) and Sneak Mage / Stealth Mage.

    For me subtle spell is Tier S.
    This should mean that Druid is the best caster ever, right? Specifically, Moon Druid, not so much because of improved shapes than because you can wild shape as a bonus action...

    Beyond the fact that their spell list is actually great (*poke* Talamare ;))...
    Spoiler: why do I think Druid's spellcasting is great
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    Because while lacking the best spells of several categories, they do still get an impressive array of spells, from the most generalist to the most "utility niche", including...
    - Some of the most useful environment control spells (Plant Growth, Fog Cloud, Moonbeam, Dust Devil, Wind Wall, Wall of Water, Sleet Storm etc up to EarthQuake and the like)...
    - Some of the most useful buff spells (Enhance Ability, Darkvision, Longstrider, Flame Arrows, Freedom of Movement, Polymorph, plus self like Warding Wind for gishes but that's another topic)
    - Many useful healing/purification spells (Healing Words, the now op Healing Spirit, Lesser Restoration, Greater Restoration, Heal, Heroes's Feast, Primordial Ward).
    - A great variety of exploration/investigation utility spells (Locate spells, Identify, Goodberry, Purify, Dispel Magic, Find the Path, Scrying),
    - Some spells, some of them rituals, that can completely change entry or fighting tactics or warring strategy provided the situation fits (Pass Without Trace, Water Walking / Water Breathing, Transport by Plants, Wind Walk, Conjure -Air- Elementals)
    - A decent enough array of AOE, which have generally much weaker damage than direct counterparts from Sorcerer/Wizards but compensate with equal or greater range and added effects (Flaming Sphere -great for a time-, Earth Tremor -small radius so friendly, puts prone, cheap-, Erupting Earth (damage and difficult terrain), Call Lightning (good damage per concentration, large range), Tidal Wave (particular shape that seems to be adaptable), Sunbeam (great against darkness), Ice Storm (unusual shape good for low flyers and avoiding friendlies), Sleet Storm (great range, obscures area, makes people fall prone, difficult terrain) etc...
    - A pretty good array of AOE or single-target (with some upcastable) debuffs: Thorns Whip (yeah, being moved can be a pretty strong, although incidental, debuff ;)) Heat Metal, Hold Person, Polymorph, Dominate, Grasping Vine (same as Thorns Whip, party dependent so meh or great YMMV), Elemental Bane (once per turn, but every turn, plus lose resistance... ;)), Sympathy, Wall of Thorns (like Plant Growth and Spike Growth fused together)...
    - And the best creature conjuration spells until very high level (in PHB, IIRC there have been several conjuration spells added in other books but I don't know them).

    AND... You can design a different set-up among ALL the spells, EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.


    You wanted to try a spell but it has been pretty underwhelming in your experience... You're a Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock? Tough luck, you have to copie with it until next level (which can end as pretty long past level 8-9). You're a Wizard? Well, you can prepare another spell another day, but that's a few pages of your book you'll probably never read again. You can just hope that your DM will throw a few bones (read: spells as loot/trade) at you soon.

    You find that particular spell potentially great, but you are afraid you'll never see a chance to really use it (like Water Breathing)? For every class except Cleric and Druid, you have a tough choice to make because it's taking one precious "spell known" slot for a while, confer above.

    Druid is the only one that can really use all the spells, even the most niche, because you don't care about reducing your "always useful" spell list by one-two "slots" if it's only for a day.

    And if you really like those spells, Land Druid brings not only extra slots, but also some potentially "external" spells from other lists that are very useful (Haste, Slow, Cone of Cold, Silence, Web, Dream, Stinking Cloud, Greater Invisibility)

    But in addition to all that greatness and perks from Circles, Druid can Wild Shape and still maintain concentration on spells cast beforehand.
    Opening a great array of hit&run tactics or ambushes, especially if Moon (bonus action = much less chance to need another turn to complete the tactic).

    Things get absolutely gorgeous when (or rather, IF to be honest) you managed to bring Druid to up to 18th level, since you basically get permanent Subtle.

    So you could now stroll unknown to all as a regular rat/eagle/cat and wreak havoc while everyone is just wondering the cause of the catastrophe falling upon them... Bad luck? Angry deity? Enemy attack by a very distant force?

    With that said, by that time Wizards/Bards/Sorcerers got Wish so it's nothing over the top. ;)
    At least, until you get that "as often as you will Wild Shape" capstone, making Moon Druid some of the top hardest creatures to kill.

    That's also why if you don't have the patience (or the hope) to get such high levels, but still want to play with this kind of tactics, just three levels of Sorcerers taken somewhere in the middle of your career (or rather, one starting level of Draconic/Shadow/Divine Soul Sorcerer early for Shield, Mage Armor and Constitution proficiency, then the two others once you got the spells you really want to use regularly) will make your day: Subtle.will give you the same benefit (at the potential price of burning some slots to refill SP), and the other Metamagic of choice will be Extend or Careful depending on the kind of spells you use the most (even Empowered could be worth it if you regularly use instant AOE).

    The only true drawbacks of Druid are its relative frailness (better HP and armor than Wizard, but no Shield/Blur/Mirror Image etc so ime more or less the same until level 4-5) and the potentially big strings attached in roleplay, depending on how DM sees the class and setting.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    At level 20... moon druid. Even then it is close. High levels Wizards are that good.
    True that. So true that i'd actually argue that Wizards take the top: between interchangeable free 1st and 2nd level spells, choice of two short-rest 3rd level spells, Wish and Simulacrum, and enough high level spells to (unless you're really stupid or DM is really antagonistic) get multiple ways of learning other spells, spying enemy factions and preparing lots of contingencies or countermeasures...
    In any properly evolving world, I really see only Wizards dominating but...
    Avoiding too much hurt on environment to not pull lvl 20 Druids against them: they would *probably* win a face-off per abovementioned reasons, but would be too costly for benefit involved imo. XD :)
    Same with Clerics (you usually don't want to seriously annoy deities, even "good" ones) and Warlocks (same, except usually worse since patrons tend to be entities of gigantic power but rather on the malevolent face of the coin). ^^
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-01-02 at 06:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post

    The only true drawbacks of Druid are its relative frailness (better HP and armor than Wizard, but no Shield/Blur/Mirror Image etc so ime more or less the same until level 4-5) and the potentially big strings attached in roleplay, depending on how DM sees the class and setting.
    Desert Land druids get Blur, Coast Land Druids get Mirror Image

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Desert Land druids get Blur, Coast Land Druids get Mirror Image
    True that. And Moon Druid get a few nice THP cushions.
    But I was speaking "in general", putting archetype benefits aside (because in that case even Shepherd Druid would have things to say ;)).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Snif

    Well, Druid are good, but he has a worse list of the game.
    No Dimension door, Teleport, Wish, Counterspell, Invisibility, See Invisibility, true sight, Wish. It is vulnerable against long range as 1200' or 600' Eldritch Blast . Can not see invisible. Illusion like Permanent Major Image is devasting against them. Invisibility is an unfair fight.

    Also do not worry about Sorcery Points (Coffeelocks are there) and a Sorcerer with Distant Spell Metamagic (Another Tier S) can cause serious problems. Per Example, a flying combat: The Sorcerer casts Distant Tidal Wave (240 feet) x Druid's Tidal Wave (120 feet), obviously the druids is prone.
    With wish and Simulacrum, the sorcerer has double action. Heightein Spell is incredibly dangerous against a target that has no counterspell. So, It's 2 Distant Tidal Wave at 240 feet x 1 Tidal Wave at 120 feet.
    Wish for Permanent Programmed Illusion (Until Dispelled), Wish for Contingency, Wish for Versatility.

    For example, a Divine Soul with Planar Ally + Heightein Planar Binding can summon powerful allies to fight at your side.
    Coualt, Arcanoloths, Ultroloths, Ki-rin, Empyrean, Planetars, Genies, Nightmares

    Well, Druids are cool, but, their list is weak compared to Divine Soul. Right?
    Last edited by Texugo; 2018-01-02 at 07:57 PM.

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    It's us, isn't it? We're the best casters, if only we'd realize it....

    Now pull my magic finger, you wonderful person, you.

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    I'm actually sort of surprised that there hasn't been a new 'Caster battle royale' thread since the release of Xanathar's.

    I think the last time Druid in Earth elemental form was pretty much untouchable?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texugo View Post
    Well, Druid are good, but he has a worse list of the game.
    No Dimension door, Teleport, Wish, Counterspell, Invisibility, See Invisibility, true sight, Wish. It is vulnerable against long range as 1200' or 600' Eldritch Blast . Can not see invisible. Illusion like Permanent Major Image is devasting against them. Invisibility is an unfair fight.

    Also do not worry about Sorcery Points (Coffeelocks are there) and a Sorcerer with Distant Spell Metamagic (Another Tier S) can cause serious problems. Per Example, a flying combat: The Sorcerer casts Distant Tidal Wave (240 feet) x Druid Tidal Wave (120 feet), obviously the druids is prone.
    With wish and Simulacrum, the sorcerer has double action. Heightein Spell is incredibly dangerous against a target that has no counterspell. So, It's 2 Distant Tidal Wave at 240 feet x 1 Tidal Wave at 120 feet.

    For example, a Divine Soul with Planar Ally + Heightein Planar Binding can summon powerful allies to fight at your side.
    Coualt, Arcanoloths, Ultroloths, Ki-rin, Empyrean, Planetars, Genies, Nightmares

    Well, Druids are cool, but, their list is weak compared to Divine Soul. Right?
    Hmm... I'd tend to agree with you because I'm among the few ones around here that really don't undersell Sorcerers...
    But I also have to say I rarely got the chance to really play Druid's best spells because I'm usually the one DMing... XD

    Like Transport with Plants: seems like a meh spell at first glance, but I could really see, in an long-term "bring that powerful overlord" down campaign, a subplot made by party to make a (Large for any reasonable DM, but the writing allows you, by RAW, to exit through any plant, although you have to enter through at least a large one -and you usually want an escape plan ^^) plant be brought into the chamber of the tyran. Then you can bypass any and every protection barring the ones in the room itself: because the plant is a totally regular plant, there is no Detect Magic until you actually cast the spell. There are obviously high-level countermeasures available, but still...

    Wind Walk is also much better than Fly and Dimension Door, even it it has some risks involved: Wizard has Teleportation of course but that requires some set up beforehand.

    As for your very long-range tactics...
    First, mostly any class is really susceptible to those attacks at first glance, Sorcerer themselves included: only Wizard could maybe quickly react through some Contigency or Glyph of Warding to cast one of the countermeasures you speak of (or other class getting same spell).
    Second, it requires YOU as the big blaster to actually accurately see your target at that distance: 300 feet is fair, 600 feet is doable, 1200 feet is very hard.

    Especially if Druid decides to change into a Tiny creature: even if a (arguably generous even if it's possibly RAW) DM decided to consider that you still "see" the creature because it's actually in your vision field (aka you "see" as in getting the image somewhere on the retina, but not see as in actively processing part of what your eye gets in your brain)...
    It would just take a few feet of movement of said Druid to go behind any natural objet that would provide him full cover, unless he directly wild shapes into a burrowing animal. Good luck hitting him now, Spell Sniper or what, you will be useless. As would be most AOE incidentally unless your DM is really generous (who would defend that a Fireball, because a sphere, would actually burn down deep in the ground up to the full extent of his radius? Not me).
    While it's lesser than Greater Invisibility until very high level (because that one does let you act normally, notably casting non-concentration spells), if you just consider the defensive aspect it's Invisibility on steroids: because you are Wild Shaped (which is not a "magic effect" per se), even Dispel Magic nor Counterspell would work. Because it's a non-concentration feature, you can use it after casting any concentration spell you'd like (like, *totally randomly*, one environment spell or conjuration spell). Because it scales with Druid level, you can stay several hours (or indefinitely as capstone).

    Another tactic of Druid (honestly much simpler) would be to just cast a Fog Cloud or any of those many lowish-level spells that obscure areas between you and him, preferably close to him, to let him several rounds thinking about the best course of action.
    Because you started from that far from him, even with Dimension Door, it will still require two turns to close in: your tactic is actually turning against you...

    Third, you need to be the one starting the fight.
    If Druid is humanoid form, getting him on surprise should not be too difficult, although you still need to bypass his passive Perception check, which ought to be decent (or high if he took Observant).
    If for whatever reason surprise is not an option (confer notably a bit below), then comes Initiative rolls: both have no particular reason to boost DEX, but you have one less ASI: it will boil down on sheer luck, and whether any of you took Alert, or Lucky, or both. And Druid did not have Foresight cast before for any reason. ;)
    Nor did he ritual cast Commune With Nature regularly, otherwise your powerful celestial allies will give you out (because he will immediately notice they are not locals).
    Nor did he cast Locate Creature (this one is very far-stretched though, unless he also used Scrying before hand and already knew you were coming to him).

    Fourth, you'd need quite a bit of luck to down him on the first round.
    In fact, you have little chance of killing him on first turn with reasonable builds (so you and Simulacrum taking Quickened Agonizing Eldricht Blast + Agonizing Eldricht Blast for a grand total of potentially up to 2*4*2=16(1d10+5) = average 16*(10) + 8 (yeah, I'm lazy) = 168 damage, provided all hit.
    Druid normally built for high-level (so maxed WIS, 16 CON, 14 DEX, medium armor) would have an average of 8+3+19*(5+3)= 20*8+3 = 163.

    AC would be at least 16 (Hide + shield), provided Druid neither has a preventive Stoneskin activated when he's in humanoid form (Land has extra slots so it's doable), nor got hands on magical armor and shield that would easily boost his AC to 18-20, nor decided to get a Magic Initiate: Shield because he already learned in the past that some nasty things could come from afar.

    So with your Sorcerer, having 5+6=11 to hit, chances to land each ray would be respectively of 80%, 60-70%, 45% (18 AC by Stoneskin + Shield for example), 35% (worst case: AC 20 through magic armor and shield, plus Shield spell activated on first hit).
    So respectively 13 (rounding up), 10-11, 7, and 5-6 hits on all your attacks.
    With a bit of luck, you have a decent chance of downing the Druid in the best case. For next in line, you'd need several criticals. In all other cases, you failed to down him, and now he has time to prepare either escape or counter-attack depending on context.

    The only other big thing I can think of is Meteor Swarm, but even if both of you cast it, it would amount to 2*20d6 (fire) and 2*20d6 (bludgeoning) damage. Provided Druid did not cast Stoneskin as a permanent countermeasure (arguably very low chance: this is a 4th level spell, so much higher cost), he still has Absorb Elements: immediately halving fire damage of both parts, so total of 20d6 on a failed save. So worst case guy will suffer 60d6 damage for a nasty average of 360 damage: yeah, here you can be sure you got him good that time provided cases hereunder are not applicable.

    And this is IF Druid didn't cast Foresight (advantage on saves, imposes disadvantage on attacks) when starting his day: high chance if he didn't know he is targeted by a powerful caster or he is not paranoÔac like a Wizard ^^, very low chance otherwise. Same with Protection from Energy. ;)

    And this is IF Druid was humanoid in the first place: provided you seem to speak about level 18-20 builds here, I don't see any reason for Druid (at least Moon) to not be in animal shape permanently. Which means, on your part, using spells like Scrying (which target Wis, Druid being evidently good at those saves) to try and locate him. Then trying to blow through his THP (which is just NOT doable on a Moon Druid, who has access to Elemental Forms or can just Wild Shape into a 18 AC, 80+ HP as a bonus action as often as he wishes).

    Incidentally, there is no reason either why such a high level Druid would not have basically every living animal being in his general trending area aware of his existence and either respectuous or fearful of him, so feeding him information one way or another. So you would also need to approach covertly if you want to take a chance at your surprise attack.

    And apart from having probably several creatures ready to help/defend him without order (although I admit that is 100% DM dependent ;)), Druid can himself invoke powerful Elementals or Feys to help him. I have no useful opinion on comparative worth of high level cast of those compared to Planar Ally (especially since I don't know well the creatures you speak of) but I'd guess the superior action economy of a group (especially when some creatures *cough* Pixies *cough* can cast spells) could counterbalance the superior stats and ability of a single creature (or two, *maybe* three). Technically there are no limits apparently to the number of creatures you could bind with the Planar combo, but I'd expect any DM to restrict one way or another (especially since you actually "invite" creatures to your plane to bind them forcefully for a great amount of time, to send them on a very dangerous mission: the godly entity you are calling to won't appreciate the fact you are using its creatures as scapegoats).
    All these creatures would also need tremorsense or great tracking abilities to still find the Druid escaping underground... If he didn't directly use Transport by Plants to quickly escape to a safe haven from where he can ramp up his personal protection against your next attempt.

    Sooo... I really don't think it would be THAT easy in a properly made world, for a Sorcerer/Warlock to kill Druid: it would be certainly be doable but with a pretty great amount of preparation and without being totally devoid of risks. ;)
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-01-02 at 09:00 PM.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Thank you citan. Good to see that the nature caster is still on top when it comes to survival. Would be silly otherwise, because as we all know Nature always finds a way.

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    Personal opinions ahead:

    Personal favorite: Bard
    Most versatile: Bard. They won't be the best at anything, but there's no category they can't cover.
    Best utility-wise: Wizard/Druid. These are the guys you want outside of combat.
    Best damage-wise: Sorcerer. Not only in terms of direct damage, but also implied damage given to teammates.

    Clerics rely too much on domain and role to be classified.

    @Citan - just give it up, man, some people just crave the conflict and attention.
    Last edited by Specter; 2018-01-03 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortis_Elrod View Post
    Thank you citan. Good to see that the nature caster is still on top when it comes to survival. Would be silly otherwise, because as we all know Nature always finds a way.
    Nice reference to one of the greatest movies of its generation (well, at the very least, one of my top ten, that ought to amount to something -totally assumes own megalomania ).

    Honestly, I'd really really like some day to, not even necessarily play, but just watch stories unveil in a world carefully crafted by a DM over several years, with players and NPC alike, across all classes, having finally attained ultimate power...
    That would be probably incredible to watch (and such people that mastered world-building up to that point should really sell their work to roleplaying game makers or movies publishers ;)).

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    Personal opinions ahead:

    Personal favorite: Bard
    Most versatile: Bard. They won't be the best at anything, but there's no category they can't cover.
    Best utility-wise: Wizard/Druid. These are the guys you want outside of combat.
    Best damage-wise: Sorcerer. Not only in terms of direct damage, but also implied damage given to teammates.

    Clerics rely too much on domain and role to be classified.

    @Citan - just give it up, man, some people just crave the conflict and attention.
    True, but I didn't mind because I thought that his question was still very much worthwhile in essence, and the resulting exercise in theorycraft interesting*. Plus it may breed some feedback from other people that actually played highest level classes for a decent time, which I always like (especially on use of some Druid/Cleric/Wizard spells, that I just have no idea how to use properly). ;)
    It did take a good chunk of my night though. ^^

    If at least some people read it and found it interesting, I'll say it was worth the effort.

    * It made me at least realize how Meteor Swarm could be deadly against most casters except Wizards (at least I guess so because of Contigency, Clone and that half dozen other spells that seem great but I never really used myself), Moond Druid (as explained) and particular builds using Extended Foresight + Extended Aid or Action Surge, even with Absorb Elements or more generally fire resistance. Especially if you can chain two of them thanks to a recent Simulacrum. ^^
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-01-03 at 05:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texugo View Post
    Can not see invisible. Invisibility is an unfair fight.
    Faerie Fire?
    Last edited by Beelzebubba; 2018-01-03 at 07:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texugo View Post
    Well, Druid are good, but he has a worse list of the game.
    No Dimension door, Teleport, Wish, Counterspell, Invisibility, See Invisibility, true sight, Wish. It is vulnerable against long range as 1200' or 600' Eldritch Blast . Can not see invisible. Illusion like Permanent Major Image is devasting against them. Invisibility is an unfair fight.

    Well, Druids are cool, but, their list is weak compared to Divine Soul. Right?
    Well, first off the 1200 and 600 foot range is meaningless. You may be able to snipe people from that distance...but there's no realistic way to make use of that sort of range. As for the Druid spell list, I'm going to be honest. I play a Moon Druid in a party with a Warlock, a Soradin, a Wizard, and a Barbarian. And let me tell you:

    - My Moon Druid tanks better then the barbarian. Barbarian has gone down multiple times and actually died when I missed one game. I have been knocked out once because of a BS crit where the DM nearly rolled max damage on the first turn. Seriously, first turn, DM managed to roll a high on initiative for once and went before me. And what did he do? He crit the level 6 Druid with a max HP of 51 for 6d10 and rolled a 58. Can't even get mad, everyone was shocked, including him. XD

    -My moon druid often does better with their spells then the warlock or Wizard. I think part of it is that the Wizard isn't that good at optimizing a Wizard...the warlock did well before he died when I missed a second session. While the Druid's spell list may not have as much firepower as a Wizard, they make up for it with amazing utility and battlefield control. You've never seen anything until you see a Hydra get ripped to pieces because you're playing Tomb of Annihilation and got to summon eight 1/4 cr raptors that rip the hydra apart for 88 damage. And that was just with a single 3rd level Summon Beast spell.

    - Wanna make sure no-one can ever walk to you? Plant Growth and Spike Growth. They'll have to kill themselves walking to you, or used ranged attacks.

    - Need healing? Druid's got ya covered. I may not be a Life Cleric, but my spells are still perfectly fine.

    I'd suggest playing the Druid class and looking a bit closer at the spells. I feel like the Druid spell list is very similar to Illusion spells. They're only good if you're creative with their use, and if you have someone who knows how to use them then they can be insane.


    That said, after singing the praises of the Druid, they are not my favorite caster class. My three favorites would have to be, in this order:

    - Wild Magic Sorcerer. If you have a DM who lets you play with the Wild Magic it's a blast...literally =p

    - Divination Wizard. Who doesn't love forcing everything to fail their save against Tasha's Hideous Laughter? I'll make sure you die with a smile. <3

    -Lord Bard, it's a spell caster, buffer, debuffer, and Rogue all in one =p
    Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2018-01-03 at 06:41 PM.

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    Divine Sorcerer 17 / Divine Warlock 3
    Cast ALL of the things!
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    Best Caster? maybe druid maybe bard maybe wizard or even coffeelock.

    But best Magic User? My friends have you forgotten about the Mystic so easily?

    Level 20 capstone might just beat a druid in survivability.

    You wanna talk about Versatile look no further.

    Maybe the Mystic is lacking in the Game Changing abilities. maybe.... You could always summon shadows and consume the world.

    Best thing here is you can just say What Counterspell?

    I submit the Mystic for nomination. Who will second me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinGuy View Post
    Just give me your opinion on your favorite caster or the caster you think is the best.
    Favorite = Wizard, the Swiss Army Knife of casters.

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    Wizard has spell slots. Sorcerer has metamagic. I think there pretty even as for bard, warlock, druid, and cleric, I think they too are pretty good in different situations. Also Hexblade is pretty good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    We, as humans, have incisors. Those are made for tearing flesh and meat.
    Meat tastes good.
    If we aren't supposed to eat people, then why are they made of meat?

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    Gnome illusionist

    Every other caster you have seen or even thought you played was just you failing your int(investigation) check.

    It's ok you just learn to live in the illusion.
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    You don't see the gnomes running around fighting wars with each other, do you? No, because they're civilized.

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    Default Re: Best Caster?


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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    The best caster... do you mean the ability of the Sorcerer to Twin a ridiculous amount of limited spells.

    Do you mean the versatillity of the Mage. Do you mean the raw power that Warlock can harness. Do you intend to go the Druid route with the tanking capabilities. Would you prefer a supportive Bard who can be a clutch member of teamfights with Lore College and access to a full spelllist (Bards are quite powerful).

    You can even go into Cleric if you want to bring back your friends from the grave.

    Best caster in term of raw power are Mage with Arcane Recovery, Sorcerer with Sorcery Points and Druid (Land) with their font of recovery that function like Wizards (from memory). These three casters have the maximum amount of slots virtually (Coffeelock is a thing, but it's rather hard to evaluate as a pure caster... he can have lot of spells, but he doesn't have much in versatility if we compare to the Mage or the Druid (or the metamagic spikes from Sorcerer).

    I believe the system has some good balance after all... there is not a singular archetype that I found disgusting as to never allow it as a DM.

    Another question is access to key spells (like Teleportation or Counterspell).

    You're a strong caster the day you have Counterspell in your inventory... because you can nullify enemy and make a proper use of your reaction.

    You're also a valuable member of the party when you heal. You're as strong as those you are playing with.

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mortis_Elrod View Post
    Best Caster? maybe druid maybe bard maybe wizard or even coffeelock.

    But best Magic User? My friends have you forgotten about the Mystic so easily?

    Level 20 capstone might just beat a druid in survivability.

    You wanna talk about Versatile look no further.

    Maybe the Mystic is lacking in the Game Changing abilities. maybe.... You could always summon shadows and consume the world.

    Best thing here is you can just say What Counterspell?

    I submit the Mystic for nomination. Who will second me?
    I think nobody talked about the Mystic because everyone silently agrees that it's by far (barring maybe the I-dont-remember-name- Wizard archetype that also got all Cleric spells) the most ridiculously overpowered class so far (like, getting some empowered Enlarge effect for a ridiculous cost, before even casters getting the spell). Which is pretty normal since they apparently concentrate all "new" features at low level to ease testing for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    I think nobody talked about the Mystic because everyone silently agrees that it's by far (barring maybe the I-dont-remember-name- Wizard archetype that also got all Cleric spells) the most ridiculously overpowered class so far (like, getting some empowered Enlarge effect for a ridiculous cost, before even casters getting the spell). Which is pretty normal since they apparently concentrate all "new" features at low level to ease testing for some reason.
    As far as what has been released and is official material, the Divine Soul is the only fullcaster that can pick in both lists. And you have to pick carefully... not much spells to work with (the Cleric-1 dip helps... and I'm a big fan of this archetype being one of the best casters due to the innate ability to pick spells from a large spell list... you have to work it out quite much though).

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    As far as what has been released and is official material, the Divine Soul is the only fullcaster that can pick in both lists. And you have to pick carefully... not much spells to work with (the Cleric-1 dip helps... and I'm a big fan of this archetype being one of the best casters due to the innate ability to pick spells from a large spell list... you have to work it out quite much though).
    Think he was talking about the Theurge wizard. I agree FS Sorcerer is pretty good.


    And to be fair Citan itís probably that way because high levels donít see much play.

    Though on the other hand that might be a design flaw, could have made it easier to get higher levels in the first place, but they might not have had the foresight they needed to make that decision....

    Well in the interest of fair play I retract the Mystic. In its stead I will vote for Eldritch Knight, for being the only caster to get 4 attacks per turn and the other goodies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortis_Elrod View Post
    Think he was talking about the Theurge wizard. I agree FS Sorcerer is pretty good.


    And to be fair Citan itís probably that way because high levels donít see much play.

    Though on the other hand that might be a design flaw, could have made it easier to get higher levels in the first place, but they might not have had the foresight they needed to make that decision....

    Well in the interest of fair play I retract the Mystic. In its stead I will vote for Eldritch Knight, for being the only caster to get 4 attacks per turn and the other goodies.
    I was indeed speaking of "relative overpowerness by design" of UA content, and indeed trying to get "Theurge" in my failing memory. Thanks for pointing that out. ;=)

    But you know, I made times ago the same conclusion as you regarding the way UA is made, "put features at low level because high level play is rare", but it doesn't make any more sense to me: if you, designer, wants to play test something, just start the campaign at the level you want your character to be. ;=)

    I mean, the only thing to "test" is really the mechanical power of a feature. You don't care about actually playing a campaign, unless a few cases where the feature is actually about downtime advancement or long-term benefits. So basically you can just take pre-made encounters and resolve them.

    So my only explanation is that they put obviously powerful features much lower than you'd expect to see "how low" they can put it before it breaks all the balance relative to monsters of corresponding CR (hope I'm clear ^^)...
    I'll double on that, in reflection, through the fact that many of the Mystic features could be summarized as "cast X spell but on self only, possibly without concentration". So they are searching how you can "dumb down (or up)" the level at which you acquire that feature compared to corresponding spell: self means significant "potential loss", but non-concentration means "big potential gain" (because you can stack it with other effects)...
    And for that, using low-level encounters is certainly easier (less tactical options on both sides, less HP so quicker fights, etc).
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-01-04 at 08:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    I was indeed speaking of "relative overpowerness by design" of UA content.

    But you know, I made the same conclusion as you "put features at low level because high level play is rare", but it doesn't make any more sense to me: if you, designer, wants to play test something, just start the campaign at the level you want your character to be. ;=)

    I mean, the only thing to "test" is really the mechanical power of a feature.
    So my only explanation is that they put obviously powerful features much lower than you'd expect to see "how low" they can put it before it breaks all the balance relative to monsters of corresponding CR (hope I'm clear ^^)...
    Yeah youíre clear. Itís like they want to know at what point 5e breaks. Or viewed differently they want to know how op they can sell something for.

    Makes me think of why we call it ďbalanceĒ . What are balancing? Mechanics with mechanics? Power creep and Consumer opinion ? Potential Profit and Design principles ?

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    I'm still familiarizing mys of with 5e but I've always had a soft spot for Druids and wizards personally. Want heals? Druid. Everything but heals? Wizard. But I'm big on roll play not just mehanics so the mindset of both interest me as well. It boils down to preference, mindset of yourself and the character.

    If we're talking spell dueling or raw magic might I'd put my money on the wizard or sorcerer more often than not. Fighting and casting in the Frey of combat? Sorcerer or cleric. (Maybe Druid). Heals? Druid or cleric, bard would be alright. Overal utility? Likely bard.
    So it depends on your play style and preference, what gap you want to fill. There really isn't an answer to "best" overall, all have a place and best use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strangways View Post
    Favorite = Wizard, the Swiss Army Knife of casters.
    I'm going to start using this line :-)

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Favorite is the wizard, in my opinion they have the most options(spells) at most tiers of play. Plus collecting new spells is fun.

    The best caster though, would depend on tiers of play. This is my opinion of course, liable to change.
    Tier 1(1-4) cleric, druid
    Tier 2(5-10) sorcerer, wizard(glyph of warding for ultimate house defense), cleric, bard(lore), warlock
    Tier 3(11-16) wizard(their list really outshines others at about here but requires a lot of gold, demiplane, clone, force cage, simulacrum, contingency)
    Tier 4(17-20) anyone with wish (so many options, makes any caster a Swiss Army knife), so wizard, bard, arcana cleric, sorcerer

    And at level 20 specifically, Moon druid, arcana cleric(100% god summon chance and wish), wish casters still great too, so wizard, bard, sorcerer17/warlock3 is great at 20 as well.

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tboy1492 View Post
    I'm still familiarizing mys of with 5e but I've always had a soft spot for Druids and wizards personally. Want heals? Druid. Everything but heals? Wizard. But I'm big on roll play not just mehanics so the mindset of both interest me as well. It boils down to preference, mindset of yourself and the character.

    If we're talking spell dueling or raw magic might I'd put my money on the wizard or sorcerer more often than not. Fighting and casting in the Frey of combat? Sorcerer or cleric. (Maybe Druid). Heals? Druid or cleric, bard would be alright. Overal utility? Likely bard.
    So it depends on your play style and preference, what gap you want to fill. There really isn't an answer to "best" overall, all have a place and best use.
    Divine Soul from Xanathar's turn Sorcerer into buffing machines.

    1 level dip into Life Cleric and you're suddenly free to choose your spells for higher slots and leave the bunch of level 1 to Cleric (which gets Bless, Healing Word, Cure Wounds and Sanctuary with only 13 Wisdom).

    Then build the sorcerer you want. You can pick Revivify at 3. With Counterspell.

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    Default Re: Best Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    You are the one acting like a 5-year child honestly, bringing personal opinions that basically say some classes are ****ty as absolute truth without even a draft of argumentation. ;)

    Moreover, the point was not "which one has the best spell list" but "which one is the best caster". Besides the fact that the question is devoid of any real interest, because each caster has its own strenghs making him better than other in some situations, it means that you have to evaluate a caster as a whole.

    Even putting that aside, each of those individual points you make...
    Spoiler: list
    Show

    * Sorcerer has the worst spelllist
    * Druid has the (I guess second?) worst spell list.
    * Sorcerer has the (I guess second?) worst features.
    * Druid has the worst features.

    Are, to say the least, extremely debatable.
    Also you're cute when trying to shield yourself behind a "pre-Xanathar". AFAIK, OP didn't restrict debate to PHB so all options are on the table.

    But you are obviously not here to try a constructive discussion, so I don't feel it worth to spend some time detailing my own arguments to defend the opposite opinion (obviously if other people want it I'll be glad to provide ;)).
    I usually go by the rule that the first to insult is the childish one.

    Personal opinion is a little inherently in most arguments, but it's not like my opinion isn't supported.

    You're right that the question is Which class is the Best Caster, however we need to establish parameters to what makes the Best Caster, the Best.

    Now to be the Best Caster one would assume you have...
    -Strong Spell List
    This is easily one of the most important factors. Since this is what determines the effect of our Caster will have. Having a large selection of spells is crucial, but so is having the arguably best spells readily available. We need both Diversity and Power.

    -Strong Caster Features
    It's often not enough to just having access to good spells, since a lot of classes may also have access to those spells. It's also crucial to be able to manipulate those Spells or to provide additional support thru your Caster Features.

    If you have additional criteria that you feel is crucial to being a strong Caster, feel free to add it.

    Now each of these core necessities have different sub importance.
    Spell List might be weighed by Damage, Control, Support, etc.

    Needless to say its obviously a pretty complex system.

    However in the end...
    Wizard has the best Spell List and among the Best Spell Casting features.
    Cleric and Bard have great Spell List. Cleric has better Spell Casting Features, while Bard has unique mechanics that allows them make their Spell List uniquely the best in a limited fashion.
    Sorcerer Meta Magic is probably the 2nd or 3rd Best Spell Casting features with Metamagic, but the more you examine Metamagics the more you realize that a lot of them are fairly limited in scope. You're often limited to only a few amazing options, and a huge amount of mediocre and poor ones. Sorcerer is then further limited by a pretty Terrible spell list.
    Druid is limited by having nearly zero Spell Casting features, and a pretty terrible Spell List that inherently misses on a huge amount of crucial and powerful Spells. They get a few useful unique spells, but lose too much to make them worth it.

    So
    Best Spell List
    Wizard ~ Bard
    Cleric
    Sorcerer
    Druid

    Best Spell Casting Features
    Sorcerer
    Wizard
    Cleric
    Bard
    Druid

    Oh, and I'm not hiding behind "Pre-Xanthar". I'm acknowledging Xanathar changes a lot of the previous power levels. Which means we need more time to fully understand what Xanathar brings. Trying to claim rankings before it has been properly analyzed is just Childish.

    Finally, if you didn't feel it was worth it to respond, then you shouldn't have responded... Twice

    Edit - Disclaimer which should go unsaid but I'm starting to doubt it... Being the Best and the Worst is something you need to consider what it means. Being the Best Caster and being the Worst Caster doesn't mean that the Best is overpowered, and the Worst is unplayable. All 5 options are incredibly powerful and can be game changing in any game they are in. All 5 options actively switch places on specific situations that might make one better than the other despite their general ranking. However, in the end you need to stop and consider who is the most useful for the majority of situations. Kinda of like average as many different situations you can think of. In the end the one of the most variety of tools and assets will generally rise to become the Best Overall. That is what we have here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    I think nobody talked about the Mystic because everyone silently agrees that it's by far the most ridiculously overpowered class so far
    Agreed

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