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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Storing creatures in an extradimensional space, balance concerns

    I'm working on a homebrew class that allows the player to turn into a vehicle. Now, I've had to deal with a number of different issues, but I think I've done a decent job so far, and I think I'm almost ready to publish the class. There is still one issue I'm not sure about yet.

    First, one of the issues I had to deal with was size and confined spaces. You can't very well follow your party into a dungeon if you're stuck as a gargantuan battleship, now, can you? So my solution was to say that you have an extradimensional space inside you that you can fold your body up into, allowing you to revert to a smaller vehicle form, or even back to your original, non-vehicle form. Something I thought was important was that the layout of rooms and objects and such be preserved, so that when you transform back into a larger form, everything is restored as it was. You unlock your huge form in tier 3, which is big enough to be used as a modest home base, and I thought it important for the home base to be preserved even when you have to take a smaller form. As such, I decided to allow you to still count as being the largest size you have unlocked, even while in a different form, when determining your carrying capacity. Basically, you can store items inside the extradimensional space, so even when in your original form you can still carry around a literal boatload of stuff.

    However, it felt like there would be a possible exploit if you could store creatures inside that extradimensional space, so I've disallowed it for now. But this does end up causing issues for the idea of using yourself as a home base, as it means you can't have any staff/servants, or else your staff needs to get out in the open and follow on foot any time you have to revert to a smaller size. It also means that, if you intend to design the layout of your interior, you actually need one map for each size. And I've decided that larger sizes are built around smaller ones, so every room in your smaller sizes is also present in your larger ones. There can be some spatial shenanigans, like the room getting larger and having more equipment, or two connected rooms having a third room inserted between them, but it would just be so much easier if you only had one map.

    So now what I'm wondering is if I should allow creatures to be able to enter the extradimensional space, and also if your interior should always reflect your largest size, even in your smallest form. Would this be a problem? Is it exploitable? What happens when you revert to your original form? Can creatures board or disembark while in your original form? It seems like this could be really good for smuggling or for trapping creatures inside you (if they can't disembark while in your original form), and I'm not sure how to fluff allowing creatures to board or disembark while in your original form.

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    Default Re: Storing creatures in an extradimensional space, balance concerns

    You're so far off into homebrew territory that I don't know what to tell you, man. What's "exploitable" in the context of a game that clearly is already heavily modified? Won't exploits depend upon context that is only known to you and not to us?

    Maybe ask in the homebrew forum instead?https://forums.giantitp.com/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design
    Last edited by Dante; 2022-06-11 at 08:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Storing creatures in an extradimensional space, balance concerns

    I mean, maybe? I guess I should have simplified the question down a lot. If you had a cross between a Bag of Holding and a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion in your back pocket, where creatures could just chill out inside indefinitely, just how exploitable would that be? Is that something I should be concerned about, or is it more trouble to have to vacate your portable home base every time you need to fit through a doorway?

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    Default Re: Storing creatures in an extradimensional space, balance concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    I mean, maybe? I guess I should have simplified the question down a lot. If you had a cross between a Bag of Holding and a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion in your back pocket, where creatures could just chill out inside indefinitely, just how exploitable would that be? Is that something I should be concerned about, or is it more trouble to have to vacate your portable home base every time you need to fit through a doorway?
    It depends totally on campaign context. Are players already tempted to create armies of minions via Animate Dead/Planar Binding/Tiny Servant, but restrained only by the logistical hurdles of transporting them efficiently and clandestinely? If yes, then it's eliminating a major bottleneck on power and will be powerful. Otherwise it's a matter of "it depends".

    How many house rules do you have already in play, and what style of game are you running (https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.c...lay.html?m=1)? What kind of players do you have and what do they want out of the game? All this stuff affects what advice is useful.

    If your intent is to publish this for other people, then answer these questions for your target customer instead of yourself.
    Last edited by Dante; 2022-06-11 at 09:52 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Storing creatures in an extradimensional space, balance concerns

    Sounds like party members would have incredible cover all the time. How would you deal with characters popping out (or perhaps using windows/slits) casting or ranged attacking, then freely moving back into full cover? Can a cleric stay inside and heal the vehicle character as needed totally safe?

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    Default Re: Storing creatures in an extradimensional space, balance concerns

    I think the way to keep it from being exploitable is by looking at the GenieLock vessel. Naturally that’s the very first thing I thought of, as you very likely have taken into account. Also Bag of Holding, Rope Trick, Tiny Hut, etc…

    The way I would look at it would be something along these lines:
    - You can hold any allies or enemies within depending on the form you currently have.
    - Higher level means bigger vehicle means greater capacity.
    - Earlier levels can house 4 medium creatures.
    - 1st upgrade allows 8 medium creatures.
    - 2nd and final upgrade allows 12 medium creatures. (Or whatever numbers you wish. I kind of based it around the aforementioned spells and features.)
    - If you shift from the largest to the medium vehicle and there are greater than 8 medium creatures within, they may all (or just a few to reach the limit) randomly be shunted out next to you taking damage, you also taking damage (set amount of standard damage for you and said creatures, probably more damage if expelled from larger vessel, least damage from smallest). Something akin to teleporting to an occupied spot.
    - If something wishes to escape, it can go to the assumed exit and make an attack roll against your AC.
    - At any time if you’re incapacitated or dead, every living thing within is shunted out immediately.

    You more than likely have most of this all figured out and I realized I’m starting to get carried away. I hope I’ve provided some assistance!
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    Default Re: Storing creatures in an extradimensional space, balance concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante View Post
    It depends totally on campaign context. Are players already tempted to create armies of minions via Animate Dead/Planar Binding/Tiny Servant, but restrained only by the logistical hurdles of transporting them efficiently and clandestinely? If yes, then it's eliminating a major bottleneck on power and will be powerful. Otherwise it's a matter of "it depends".
    Yeah, see, this is the kind of stuff I'm worried about. But maybe I shouldn't be? Not every unintended use needs to be nerfed, I just want to make sure it doesn't allow them to easily break the game. I guess the thing to do is imagine NPCs using this tactic against the players, or against each other. It's kind of the same thing as if wizards could just get a simulacrum to cast Wish for them with no consequences, then every wizard would do it, and every high level wizard would have god-like abilities. Since wizards obviously don't have those kinds of abilities, it's clear that they're not doing that, which in turn means it must not be possible.

    TBH, hauling the necromancer's skeleton army around totally sounds like the sort of thing you might want to use this for, and while it's certainly useful, it doesn't seem like it would break the game.

    How many house rules do you have already in play, and what style of game are you running (https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.c...lay.html?m=1)? What kind of players do you have and what do they want out of the game? All this stuff affects what advice is useful.

    If your intent is to publish this for other people, then answer these questions for your target customer instead of yourself.
    I'll give this a look later. Ultimately, I feel like I'm definitely not the typical D&D audience, so designing something suitable both for myself and the typical audience might not be a feasible goal. I guess at the end of the day I'm making this because maybe I might want to use it at some point, so I should design it for myself first and foremost. The concept is definitely one that's out there, and throughout the process of designing this class I've come to see why it's really not a good idea. Still, I'm hopeful that the end result mostly fixes the biggest issues with the concept, and would still be fun to play at the right table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellack View Post
    Sounds like party members would have incredible cover all the time. How would you deal with characters popping out (or perhaps using windows/slits) casting or ranged attacking, then freely moving back into full cover? Can a cleric stay inside and heal the vehicle character as needed totally safe?
    Somehow this never even occurred to me, and now that I'm aware of it I'm honestly not sure what to do about it. I guess I can lay out some of the mechanics I have and maybe a solution will present itself.

    Without getting into the nitty gritty, you have turrets that other creatures can operate. One of the big reasons for this is to help involve the rest of the party in things like ship-to-ship battles, so they don't just sit on their hands while you 1v1 the enemy vessel. I've deliberately designed the turrets to enhance both weapons and magic, allowing PCs to use most of their class features with the turrets, including things like smites. Point being, a PC would much rather be operating a turret than just standing on the deck. If I make it cost a BA both to enter and exit the turret, that should solve the issue of players dipping out of a turret to take cover every turn.

    I leave it up to the player to determine the layout of the vehicle, but I broadly define it into three section: the exterior deck, the interior cabins, and interior holds. Anything on the deck is out in the open, allowing you to attack and be attacked. Cabins are any rooms that connect directly to the deck, while holds are rooms that don't connect to the deck. This gives you a place to hide passengers if you get boarded. While the player can create an actual map, I've also provided a more abstract option, where the vessel consists of a central deck connected to an arbitrary number of cabins, connected to an arbitrary number of holds. Moving between them costs all your movement, with a Dash action letting you move twice. Under this abstract model, you similarly wouldn't be able to dip into a cabin every turn, though you could do it every other turn, and all it costs is your movement, which you're not using anyway. But again, if an unoccupied turret exists, you'd rather be there, so maybe that's enough?

    As for the pocket cleric, that's a real stumper. I'm chagrined that I didn't even think of it. It does kind of make sense, though. They'd be like Scotty making repairs to the Enterprise while its under fire. But one obvious solution that would mostly solve the issue is to change the vehicle player's creature type to construct. Some types of healing would still work, and a lot of other beneficial effects would still work, but it at least wouldn't be so easy. Perhaps only their vehicle form would be a construct, and their original form would retain their original creature type, allowing you to still get healed if you revert to your original form.

    Quote Originally Posted by animorte View Post
    You more than likely have most of this all figured out and I realized I’m starting to get carried away. I hope I’ve provided some assistance!
    Actually yes, but no worries. Some of the features I already have include:
    • When you assume a larger form and there are creatures occupying the space your new form will occupy, you can choose to bring them safely aboard (if you have room) or to smoosh them on a failed DEX save.
    • Likewise, when you revert to a smaller form, you can safely eject a passenger into one of the spaces you just vacated, or to the nearest unoccupied space.
    • If someone tries to board you, you can use a reaction to try and stop them, making a contested Athletics/Acrobatics check. I don't have a similar rule for someone trying to get off, but maybe I should...
    • Your passenger limit is simply how many creatures you can carry that don't count against encumbrance. You can carry more, but they count against encumbrance.
    • The limit is based on medium creatures. Large count as 2, huge as 4, and gargantuan as 8. Likewise, 2 small creature count as one passenger, and 4 tiny creatures (rounded down) count as one passenger.
    • If you drop to 0 HP, you can shed the vehicle shell, reverting to your original form or the smallest vehicle form (which can't be shed) and appearing somewhere inside the shell (likely an interior room where you can hide and wait for healing). You'll have to spend a lot of time and money rebuilding yourself, but at least you're not dead. Or you can not shed your shell, but you're a pretty big target, so failed death saves are likely.

    Your passenger limit also does increase as you level up. I like what I've done here, because each form clearly delineates your progression as a vehicle. You go from only being able to carry one person, to being able to carry the party, to acting as the party's home base, to acting as the party's walking castle.
    • In tier 1, you're basically someone's personal mech suit. You are medium sized and can carry one passenger.
    • In tier 2, you can act as a transport for the party. You are large sized and can carry five passengers.
    • In tier 3, you become a small mobile base. You are huge sized, and I've waffled on the passenger numbers a bit, but it's ranged from about 20 to 40.
    • In tier 4, you become a small mobile city. You are gargantuan sized. I've waffled on the passenger numbers here, too, but it's ranged from 120 to 200.

    Some of the largest ships in history had crews measuring in the thousands. And honestly, that sheer size is what the class lore is implying with that final form. You're like one of the titans from 40k. Gargantuan is pitifully small in comparison to the true size of such monsters, and even a battleship would be around 100 feet long, not 20x20 feet. For now, I'm handwaving the size thing, but I could definitely see raising the passenger number on that final form. After a certain point, it doesn't really matter, does it? And besides, it's tier 4; is there any class that isn't broken in tier 4?
    Last edited by Greywander; 2022-06-12 at 01:46 AM.

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