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    Default The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    The Shadow Vanguard

    Shadow vanguards are self taught divine spellcasters who keep a low profile until it is opportune to act and then serve as frontline combatants for their cause.

    Adventures: A shadow vanguard adventures to further a cause they believe in. Their methods usually focus on waiting for the right time to strike, setting up an advantageous encounter if possible, and then wading directly into the conflict.

    Characteristics: Shadow vanguard's tend to be more reserved in speech and actions and not as focused on gaining renown as clerics of most deities. However, in battle they live up to their vanguard title by being on the front line if it is the right time.

    Alignment: A shadow vanguard can be of any alignment as their alignment and cause are likely intertwined. More chaotic aligned shadow vanguard's may have different tactics than what would be expected, but personalities and causes can be complex and may allow for any number of possibilities.

    Religion: Although a shadow vanguard is a divine spellcaster, they are less likely than a cleric to be devoted to a deity. If they are it is usually to one with some connection to darkness (such as the moon) or subterfuge. Though it is possible for a shadow vanguard to worship any diety, more overt deities would likely have fewer followers of this nature in their ranks.

    Background: A shadow vanguard is nearly always self-taught with some cases of a bit of help from studying religious texts. This causes their magic to be less effective, requires taking advantage of as much mental acumen as they have to keep it functional, and less focused than more traditional spellcasters in ways similar to a favored soul, but also allows their methods to be more flexible in both magic and martial prowess.

    Races: Any member of any race may be a shadow vanguard as they are driven by a cause, but subterranean races known for stealth tend to have a slight reputation for being members of this class (though actual distribution of races would be difficult to gauge given the tendency for shadow vanguards to keep low profiles).

    Game Rule Information:
    A shadow vanguard has the following game statistics.
    Ability Scores: A shadow vanguard requires strength and constitution for frontline fighting. A shadow vanguard's magic benefits from intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. However, wisdom is of the highest importance for his spellcasting.
    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Dice: d10.
    Starting Wealth: As cleric.
    Starting Age: As rogue.

    Class Skills:
    The shadow vanguard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religon) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Ride (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

    The Shadow Vanguard
    Saves Spells Per Day
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Shadow Vanguard (sleep), Spells (7/0 level, 3/1st level) 5 3 - - - - - - - -
    2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Shadow Vanguard (fear), Spells Known +3 6 4 - - - - - - - -
    3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Spells Known +3 6 5 - - - - - - - -
    4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Shadow Vanguard (poison), Spells Known +3 6 6 3 - - - - - - -
    5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Spells Known +3 6 6 4 - - - - - - -
    6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Shadow Vanguard (disease), Spells Known +3 6 6 5 3 - - - - - -
    7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 4 - - - - - -
    8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Shadow Vanguard (heat and cold), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - -
    9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - -
    10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Shadow Vanguard (compulsions), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - -
    11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - -
    12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Shadow Vanguard (illusions), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - -
    13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - -
    14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Shadow Vanguard (paralysis), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - -
    15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - -
    16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Shadow Vanguard (necromancy), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 -
    17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 -
    18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Shadow Vanguard (transmutation), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Shadow Vanguard (mind-affecting), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6


    Class Features

    All of the following are class features of the shadow vanguard.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency

    A shadow vanguard is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

    A shadow vanguard casts divine spells which are not subject to arcane spell failure chance of armor and shields.

    Shadow Vanguard (Su)

    At 1st level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, fatigue, and exhaustion.
    At 2nd level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against fear.
    At 4th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against poison.
    At 6th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against disease.
    At 8th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against heat, fire, and cold.
    At 10th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against compulsions.
    At 12th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against illusions.
    At 14th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against paralysis and becomes immune to poison and disease.
    At 16th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against necromancy, negative energy, and death effects.
    At 18th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against transmutation effects and becomes immune to fear and compulsions.
    At 20th level, a shadow vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects.

    Spells

    A shadow vanguard casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list as well as abjuration, enchantment, and illusion spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Similarly to a sorcerer, he can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.

    To learn and cast a spell, a shadow vanguard must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a shadow vanguard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shadow vanguard’s Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a shadow vanguard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Shadow Vanguard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

    Shadow vanguards meditate for their spells. A shadow vanguard must spend 1 hour in quiet contemplation to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a shadow vanguard can prepare spells.

    A shadow vanguard’s selection of spells is limited. A shadow vanguard begins play knowing seven 0-level spells and three 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new shadow vanguard level, he gains three new spells of any level he can currently cast. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a shadow vanguard knows is not affected by his Intelligence score.) These new spells can be spells chosen from the cleric list or abjuration, enchantment, or illusion spells sorcerer/wizard spell list.

    ===

    Making homebrew and no one can stop me! Mwa ha ha ha! Technically still not as strong as a druid (which is a low bar for balance, but still). Multiple ability dependence caster. Treat fluff as unaffiliated cleric that's kind of like a sorceror in some ways.

    EDIT: Fixed the table.

    Fluff... at some point when I think of it.

    Got the fluff in there. Basically, they are self taught for the most part and use every bit of their mental ability scores to power their spellcasting and keep it at least reasonably functional. This gives them more flexibility and also allows them enough time to focus on their combat prowess. Though it does make their willpower a bit less.

    Subtle: Enchantment, Illusion
    Vanguard: Abjuration

    Took a bit of verbal and logical gymnastics, but that should explain how everything works with fluff and still allow flexibility in alignments and playing the character.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2018-01-05 at 01:07 PM.
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    Default Re: The Sacred Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    Sacred Vanguard (Su)

    At 1st level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, fatigue, and exhaustion.
    At 2nd level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against fear.
    At 4th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against poison.
    At 6th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against disease.
    At 8th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against heat, fire, and cold.
    At 10th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against compulsions.
    At 12th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against illusions.
    At 14th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against paralysis.
    At 16th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against necromancy effects.
    At 18th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against transmutation effects.
    At 20th level, a sacred vanguard gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects.
    Personally, I would grant larger effects at some point, and especially grant poison/disease immunity.

    Spells

    A sacred vanguard casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list as well as abjuration, enchantment, and illusion spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
    You misspelled "Sorcerer or a Favored Soul"

    To learn and cast a spell, a sacred vanguard must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sacred vanguard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sacred vanguard’s Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a sacred vanguard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sacred Vanguard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
    Any specific reasons for these? I get that this is supposed to be MADder than a bardbarian, but perhaps fill it in the fluff.

    Sacred vanguards meditate for their spells. A sacred vanguard must spend 1 hour in quiet contemplation to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a sacred vanguard can prepare spells.
    Copy/paste a bit more? By RAW, spells cast in the last 8 hours don't count against him. I think I'm wrong here, but I would check the SRD to see if I'm missing anything here.

    A sacred vanguard’s selection of spells is limited. A sacred vanguard begins play knowing seven 0-level spells and three 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sacred vanguard level, he gains three new spells of any level he can currently cast. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sacred vanguard knows is not affected by his Intelligence score; the numbers on Table: Sacred Vanguard Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be spells chosen from the cleric list or abjuration, enchantment, or illusion spells sorcerer/wizard spell list.
    ERROR 404: Table not found

    Making homebrew and no one can stop me! Mwa ha ha ha! Technically still not as strong as a druid (which is a low bar for balance, but still). Multiple ability dependence caster. Treat fluff as unaffiliated cleric that's kind of like a sorceror in some ways.
    I think it's pretty good. essentially trades off another casting stat in exchange for "dual*" casting. Only problem is that the class doesn't have fluff, and the short amount here doesn't quite explain why only *Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion...

    Actually it looks kinda like a distorted beguiler, which already spontaneously casts Enchantment and Illusion spells...
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-01-02 at 05:23 PM.
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    Default Re: The Sacred Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Personally, I would grant larger effects at some point, and especially grant poison/disease immunity.
    Gave a bit more, but 9th level spells are already nice imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    You misspelled "Sorcerer or a Favored Soul"
    Actually, it's correct because a cleric or wizard must prepare spells in advance and this class doesn't have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Any specific reasons for these? I get that this is supposed to be MADder than a bardbarian, but perhaps fill it in the fluff.
    Yep, I'll have to think up some fluff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Copy/paste a bit more? By RAW, spells cast in the last 8 hours don't count against him. I think I'm wrong here, but I would check the SRD to see if I'm missing anything here.
    I'll have to look into this carefully. It's a real shame that the SRD causes my computer to lock up sometimes.

    "Recent Casting Limit

    As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    ERROR 404: Table not found
    Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    I think it's pretty good. essentially trades off another casting stat in exchange for "dual*" casting. Only problem is that the class doesn't have fluff, and the short amount here doesn't quite explain why only *Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion...
    I'll have to think of some fluff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Actually it looks kinda like a distorted beguiler, which already spontaneously casts Enchantment and Illusion spells...
    Sort of.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2018-01-03 at 08:35 AM.
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    Default Re: The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    .

    If you change the table's header from this
    [table="width:600, class: head alt1 alt2"]
    to this
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]

    the table will be more readable and look like this


    The Shadow Vanguard
    Saves Spells Per Day
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Shadow Vanguard (sleep), Spells (7/0 level, 3/1st level) 5 3 - - - - - - - -
    2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Shadow Vanguard (fear), Spells Known +3 6 4 - - - - - - - -
    3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Spells Known +3 6 5 - - - - - - - -
    4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Shadow Vanguard (poison), Spells Known +3 6 6 3 - - - - - - -
    5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Spells Known +3 6 6 4 - - - - - - -
    6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Shadow Vanguard (disease), Spells Known +3 6 6 5 3 - - - - - -
    7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 4 - - - - - -
    8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Shadow Vanguard (heat and cold), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - -
    9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - -
    10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Shadow Vanguard (compulsions), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - -
    11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - -
    12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Shadow Vanguard (illusions), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - -
    13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - -
    14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Shadow Vanguard (paralysis), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - -
    15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - -
    16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Shadow Vanguard (necromancy), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 -
    17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 -
    18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Shadow Vanguard (transmutation), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Shadow Vanguard (mind-affecting), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

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    Default Re: The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    .

    If you change the table's header from this
    [table="width:600, class: head alt1 alt2"]
    to this
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]

    the table will be more readable and look like this


    The Shadow Vanguard
    Saves Spells Per Day
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Shadow Vanguard (sleep), Spells (7/0 level, 3/1st level) 5 3 - - - - - - - -
    2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Shadow Vanguard (fear), Spells Known +3 6 4 - - - - - - - -
    3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Spells Known +3 6 5 - - - - - - - -
    4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Shadow Vanguard (poison), Spells Known +3 6 6 3 - - - - - - -
    5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Spells Known +3 6 6 4 - - - - - - -
    6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Shadow Vanguard (disease), Spells Known +3 6 6 5 3 - - - - - -
    7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 4 - - - - - -
    8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Shadow Vanguard (heat and cold), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - -
    9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - -
    10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Shadow Vanguard (compulsions), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - -
    11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - -
    12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Shadow Vanguard (illusions), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - -
    13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - -
    14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Shadow Vanguard (paralysis), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - -
    15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - -
    16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Shadow Vanguard (necromancy), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 -
    17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 -
    18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Shadow Vanguard (transmutation), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Shadow Vanguard (mind-affecting), Spells Known +3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
    Updated table to look nicer as quoted. I'm not entirely sure why it does, but I'll take it. Thanks for the assist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woland View Post
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    Default Re: The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    So just to be sure: Its a limited List prepared Caster?
    THat depends on all three mental Attributes?


    That explains the amount of BAB and other bonuses then. ;)


    Not bad overall, if one likes something MAD, still you might want to switch it to spontaneous casting, it has limited spells known anyway already, and clarify: are the arcane Spells the Shadowguard learns (from the allowed Schools) still considered Arcane, or do they cast these arcane Spells as Divine Spells?
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2018-01-05 at 11:53 AM.
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    Default Re: The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    So just to be sure: Its a limited List prepared Caster?
    THat depends on all three mental Attributes?


    That explains the amount of BAB and other bonuses then. ;)


    Not bad overall, if one likes something MAD, still you might want to switch it to spontaneous casting, it has limited spells known anyway already, and clarify: are the arcane Spells the Shadowguard learns (from the allowed Schools) still considered Arcane, or do they cast these arcane Spells as Divine Spells?
    It is a spontaneous caster... what part is making it sound like it's not though? (I think I may have fixed the part that could have caused the confusion)

    They are considered divine spells.

    Technically, it not only depends on all three mental attributes, it also depends on all three physical attributes and has good reason to take them (lack of heavy armor, str and con for getting into melee). It is completely MAD. The cleric list isn't especially blasty and your save DC's likely won't be good, so the abjuration and cleric spells let you use your melee abilities to deal the damage instead.

    Think of it a bit like a tier 2 druid. Except that you won't need an excel spreadsheet to run it in exchange for giving up the power of playing a druid and you get the novelty of full BAB which is fun.

    Note: I'm debating just having it be +1 sacred bonus to saving throws at 1st + 1 per 3 levels (4, 7, 10, etc) for simplicity.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2018-01-05 at 01:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woland View Post
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    Default Re: The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    Now its clearer, yes.
    Simply a weird formulation, if you ask me.


    Is there a list of their maximum SPells known/Spell level enywhere? The "get +3 SPells each level tells me their maximum number in total, but not if they are allocated to a specific level (aside from those at level 1 that is). Simply giving 3 new ones of any Level they can cast could result in a Spontaneus Caster with 6+ Spells/Day to choose from just about any Cleric (and extra School) level 9 Spell. Is that intentional?
    If not, maybe say that at each level only 1 SPell may be spent for the maximum SPell level known?
    Generally I`d opt for giving them fewer Level 9 Spells though, 6 to choose from is massive, bad DC`s (without cheese, as always) nonwithstanding, there are enough where you dont NEED high DC`s.


    As for the DC`s: Would make it simpler, but given that it would also nullify their additional weakness of 2 low saves, I`d would not recommend it.
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2018-01-05 at 03:44 PM.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Now its clearer, yes.
    Simply a weird formulation, if you ask me.


    Is there a list of their maximum SPells known/Spell level enywhere? The "get +3 SPells each level tells me their maximum number in total, but not if they are allocated to a specific level (aside from those at level 1 that is). Simply giving 3 new ones of any Level they can cast could result in a Spontaneus Caster with 6+ Spells/Day to choose from just about any Cleric (and extra School) level 9 Spell. Is that intentional?
    If not, maybe say that at each level only 1 SPell may be spent for the maximum SPell level known?
    Generally I`d opt for giving them fewer Level 9 Spells though, 6 to choose from is massive, bad DC`s (without cheese, as always) nonwithstanding, there are enough where you dont NEED high DC`s.


    As for the DC`s: Would make it simpler, but given that it would also nullify their additional weakness of 2 low saves, I`d would not recommend it.
    I had a feeling on the saving throw bonuses that would be an issue, with confirmation I think I'll leave it as is then.

    Another feature I'd thought of just recently is removing the saves (keeping the immunities later on) and making it so you can cast any abjuration on yourself as a swift action a number of times per day.

    As for the spell list, the cleric list (at least in core) isn't impressive enough for me to be too worried about having access to that many 9th level spells. Clerics have access to them all rather than just a few. Illusion and enchantment usually allow saves. If I'd given them transmutation in particular . Though if you can think of something particularly game breaking I'd look into it. If it were that strong spontaneous variant clerics would would be too strong as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woland View Post
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    Shadow Vanguard [3.5 Base Class Homebrew] Narthex

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    The problem, as always with the big three, is their support in other books.
    If you are restricting them to players guide spells to. Choose from, I rescind my above point.
    If not, some book will add more troublesome spells, and the three additional schools offer quite some flexibility as well.

    Think about a limit on the say 8th and 9th level spells at least. Other classes don't get as many of them as of first level either :)
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    gooddragon1's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Shadow Vanguard [Full BAB/Spellcasting/MAD Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    The problem, as always with the big three, is their support in other books.
    If you are restricting them to players guide spells to. Choose from, I rescind my above point.
    If not, some book will add more troublesome spells, and the three additional schools offer quite some flexibility as well.

    Think about a limit on the say 8th and 9th level spells at least. Other classes don't get as many of them as of first level either :)
    I was looking at the effects of MAD on spellcasters and even with the extra flexibility of more spells known at higher levels they may need it just to compete with shapechange and lower damage numbers. Usually high level spell casters have a good idea what they will pick anyways and being limited to spells known in exchange for spontaneous casting is less useful. I could lower it to 2 instead of 3 at those levels, but with mad added in I think they will need every advantage they can get. Particularly if a DM is stingy with magic items to help with mad later on.

    Though in light of your balance concerns about external spells I won't be going forward with any of the buffs I'd planned (particularly the swift action abjuration option because by not adding it they will have the action economy also working as a balancing factor).

    I feel the class is definitely less powerful with comparable optimization to tier 1's and even sorcerer tier 2's, but it's more fun. You're trading power for fun basically, and that's a trade I like (as long as it's not totally irrelevant).
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2018-01-07 at 07:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woland View Post
    Honestly, some lawyer somewhere is probably having an orgasm and he doesn't know why."
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    Shadow Vanguard [3.5 Base Class Homebrew] Narthex

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