Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 76
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    So every manner I can think of for using PF seems to not be workable, such as having them imagine being restrained by chains or fiery ropes.

    People keep saying that it's useful, but I don't see how the spell can possibly be useful in combat. if it really is useful in combat situations, what are some examples of how it can actually do... well... Anything to justify wasting a turn casting it when you could use something like Web, fireball or hope that they fail the save against Hold Person?

    (Need actual examples to 'get it' on how to use the spell, and thanks in advance)
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    So every manner I can think of for using PF seems to not be workable, such as having them imagine being restrained by chains or fiery ropes.

    People keep saying that it's useful, but I don't see how the spell can possibly be useful in combat. if it really is useful in combat situations, what are some examples of how it can actually do... well... Anything to justify wasting a turn casting it when you could use something like Web, fireball or hope that they fail the save against Hold Person?

    (Need actual examples to 'get it' on how to use the spell, and thanks in advance)
    You could make them believe they're surrounded by flames, or that a knight showed up and is threatening them, or that there is an obstacle on the way (like wooden spikes, a wall, or a briar patch), and stuff like that.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    You could make them believe they're surrounded by flames, or that a knight showed up and is threatening them, or that there is an obstacle on the way (like wooden spikes, a wall, or a briar patch), and stuff like that.
    But there's no way to restrain them or anything that would inflict status effects such as disadvantage to them on attacking or grant players advantage to attack? That's what I would want to use it for if possible.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Dalebert's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Two words, my friend: INT save. Many things have bad int saves.

    Encase them in a metal box with spikes pointing inward so they take dmg if they try to break out. That will typically effectively restrain them and do some dmg. It's primarily a crowd control spell; not a damage spell. That's just icing and something to make the illusions more real.

    Another thing is giving the blinded condition by encasing their heads in miniature iron maidens. Crawford has validated this particular approach and verified that the illusion will move with them because it's attached and it's in their minds.

    EDIT: Sorry, I used plural here which might be confusing--"heads". That's because I'm fond of twinning this spell. And that's another nice thing. It's twinnable!
    Last edited by Dalebert; 2018-01-02 at 02:46 PM.
    If you cast Dispel Magic on my Gust of Wind, does that mean you're disgusting?

    In real estate, they say it's all about location, location, location. In D&D I say it's about action economy, action economy, action economy.

    Crystal Mage -- a homebrewed arcane tradition

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    DMs need to remember the line in the spell: "While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real." So yes, if the creature thinks that it's trapped in a box filled with spikes, it's going to act like it. It could swing its arms around and go through the box, and then try to work through figuring it out with an action, but until then, it's going to act like it's in a spikey box and probably not do that, especially if it tries to move and takes damage.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    hellgrammite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    So every manner I can think of for using PF seems to not be workable, such as having them imagine being restrained by chains or fiery ropes.

    People keep saying that it's useful, but I don't see how the spell can possibly be useful in combat. if it really is useful in combat situations, what are some examples of how it can actually do... well... Anything to justify wasting a turn casting it when you could use something like Web, fireball or hope that they fail the save against Hold Person?

    (Need actual examples to 'get it' on how to use the spell, and thanks in advance)
    Your outnumbered by drow. A Drow assassin is tearing the party Cleric apart. You cast Phantasmal Force on the drow, convincing him he sees Lolth standing before him and chastising his pathetic male strength. The Cleric begins healing the rest of the team.

    As a DM, I would have to consider this highly effective in most cases. I would even possibly argue that the drow now suffers from the frightened condition (since per the spell it would treat it as real), and likely moves to prone on its next turn graveling for mercy. Being rfightened would also give it disadvantage on its intelligence check. A drow male would hardly question the appearance of Lolth, at least in a short period of time, and would likely stay out of combat.

    Getting a creature to gravel, beg or be overstruck with terror to me would be effective since its imposing directly or indirectly a paralyzing or fear condition.
    Last edited by hellgrammite; 2018-01-02 at 03:56 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    But there's no way to restrain them or anything that would inflict status effects such as disadvantage to them on attacking or grant players advantage to attack? That's what I would want to use it for if possible.
    I honestly don't know why you would want this when you can use it to completely stop the enemy from attacking.

    You can simply make so they don't see the PCs (ex: make them believe there is a wall around them), and so the PCs will have advantage on attack while they won't be able to attack (unless they start taking random swings at the wall)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I honestly don't know why you would want this when you can use it to completely stop the enemy from attacking.

    You can simply make so they don't see the PCs (ex: make them believe there is a wall around them), and so the PCs will have advantage on attack while they won't be able to attack (unless they start taking random swings at the wall)
    Well, I heard talk of it restricting movement, so I assumed that was the best practical use of it. Trying to figure out ways to use it to benefit players in combat in more than just distracting the target and wanting to learn how it can give players advantage and/or give the target disadvantage on attacking while PF is active on them. To me, it's a very difficult to figure out spell to use as I tend to think more as a blaster than a buff/debuff caster and have a hard time figuring out how to be creature in making use of such vaguely worded (Imo) spells like this and Command.

    Having in-game examples would help me to understand how to use it effectively/at all.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrammite View Post
    Your outnumbered by drow. A Drow assassin is tearing the party Cleric apart. You cast Phantasmal Force on the drow, convincing him he sees Lolth standing before him and chastising his pathetic male strength. The Cleric begins healing the rest of the team.

    As a DM, I would have to consider this highly effective in most cases. I would even possibly argue that the drow now suffers from the frightened condition (since per the spell it would treat it as real), and likely moves to prone on its next turn graveling for mercy. Being rfightened would also give it disadvantage on its intelligence check. A drow male would hardly question the appearance of Lolth, at least in a short period of time, and would likely stay out of combat.

    Getting a creature to gravel, beg or be overstruck with terror to me would be effective since its imposing directly or indirectly a paralyzing or fear condition.
    Interesting, but I think it involves knowing lure about Drow vs. this this Lloth person/creature. I've never studied up on the mythology of the game as I haven't played it a lot so far and we're playing a homebrew campaign that so far seems to involve very little of universal D&D mythology. (Ironic as I'm playing a Divine Soul/Hexblade mc character who should probably know some of this.)
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    1. To fool a guard, make him believe that a local noble is walking with you.

    2. Make appear a vast pit in front of him so he has to at least get around to make it close to you. (Using his move action to get near).

    3. That he has a demon trying to stab it. Make him takes 1d6 psychic damage each subsequent turn and worries him quite much.

    Go on.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Basically, I'm looking for ways to inflict status conditions such as restrained, blinded, etc. on targets to grant advantage to me and mine and possibly disadvantage to the target(s) as well.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    hellgrammite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Interesting, but I think it involves knowing lure about Drow vs. this this Lloth person/creature. I've never studied up on the mythology of the game as I haven't played it a lot so far and we're playing a homebrew campaign that so far seems to involve very little of universal D&D mythology. (Ironic as I'm playing a Divine Soul/Hexblade mc character who should probably know some of this.)
    That is the roleplaying and investigation part of the campaign. If your engaging with foes, and had prior access to their religious texts, journals, spellbooks...ect, you could study the images and learn what makes your enemy terrified.

    Phantasmal Force is a spell that demands and rewards creativity, roleplaying and a good DM. If you tell your DM your going to make them think their demon god of horror just appeared to one of them after deciphering their religious texts you confiscated, you should be reward.

    A Sage background with access to Phantasmal force would make for a fun and powerful character if harnessed correctly.
    Last edited by hellgrammite; 2018-01-02 at 04:20 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Basically, I'm looking for ways to inflict status conditions such as restrained, blinded, etc. on targets to grant advantage to me and mine and possibly disadvantage to the target(s) as well.
    You can't restrain him, since the illusion isn't real. It has to push him away from it or he's disbelieving it quite fast.

    You can force him in a corner by having a 10 ft x 10 ft Gelatinous Cube or Monster appear (pick something really scary)

    You can corner him in a cage if you want. As soon as he touches the metal, he goes through, it may buy you a turn of him wandering what happened, maybe two.

    Phantasmal force is a niche spell that rewards quick-thinking and creativity.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Well, I heard talk of it restricting movement, so I assumed that was the best practical use of it. Trying to figure out ways to use it to benefit players in combat in more than just distracting the target and wanting to learn how it can give players advantage and/or give the target disadvantage on attacking while PF is active on them. To me, it's a very difficult to figure out spell to use as I tend to think more as a blaster than a buff/debuff caster and have a hard time figuring out how to be creature in making use of such vaguely worded (Imo) spells like this and Command.

    Having in-game examples would help me to understand how to use it effectively/at all.
    Again, you could make them believe they're in a box with acid dripping from the walls. It will restrict movement and stop them from attacking a while

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrammite View Post
    That is the roleplaying and investigation part of the campaign. If your engaging in foes, and have access to their religious texts, journals, spellbooks...ect, you could study the images and learn what makes your enemy terrified.

    Phantasmal Force is a spell that demands and rewards creativity, roleplaying and a good DM. If you tell your DM your going to make them think their demon god of horror just appeared to one of them after deciphering their religious texts you confiscated, he should be reward.

    A Sage background with access to Phantasmal force would make for a fun and powerful character if harnessed correctly.
    Funny enough, Sage IS the background I went with. Usually, though, we tend to have lots of random encounters with little backstory. The main focal points of the homebrewed campaign we're going through are:

    Generations ago some vague (to my personal recollection out-of-game) wiped out much life in the land. We live in a citadel surrounded by wastelands inhabited by bandits and outcasts on one of a series of islands that are as many as 2 weeks travel by sea apart. We survived by scavenging the other islands for resources, but are down to the farthest unexplored islands, and were some of the explorer/scavengers, but a rather arrogant half-elf npc super soldier (he is basically a one-man party he's so good/talented) has taken over the citadel while we were away exploring. Framed for murder, we were forced to escape the citadel and make our way as pirates with the hope of one day returning to the citadel once we are strong enough and challenge the half-elf to free the citadel from his grasp.

    The island we explored and returned from (then revisited before we were forced to abandon it) is apparently run by a necromancer lich who makes zombies and chimera zombies that have what I can only describe as being similar to the t-virus from the Resident Evil games.

    The enemies have been so far: humanoid soldiers and bandits, t-rexes, zombies, zombie mutants, dino mutant zombies, a tribe of satyrs we encountered only once, pirates at sea, a siren, harpies we avoided fighting, a giant whale boss, a giant crab boss, and now a fishman artificer we spared and befriended. All in all, it's been a bit random with little in the way of actual lore.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalebert View Post
    Another thing is giving the blinded condition by encasing their heads in miniature iron maidens. Crawford has validated this particular approach and verified that the illusion will move with them because it's attached and it's in their minds.
    The problem with this one is if they move outside the 10ft cube, this illusion ends. Actually that's the problem with any illusion for phantasmal force. It's very limited, unless you make the creature not want to leave the area. Such as encasing them entirely in a 10ft cube with spikes on the inside, or flaming walls, or whatever.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    hellgrammite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The problem with this one is if they move outside the 10ft cube, this illusion ends. Actually that's the problem with any illusion for phantasmal force. It's very limited, unless you make the creature not want to leave the area. Such as encasing them entirely in a 10ft cube with spikes on the inside, or flaming walls, or whatever.
    I don't believe thats the official ruling on this. RAW by default doesn't suggest this. JeremyECrawford has stated also that the illusion can move as well.

    PH, page 203, about spell range: "Once a spell is cast, it's effects aren't limited by its range unless the spell description says otherwise."

    https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/14...orce-on-a-bag/
    Last edited by hellgrammite; 2018-01-02 at 06:38 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrammite View Post
    I don't believe thats the official ruling on this. RAW by default doesn't suggest this. JeremyECrawford has stated also that the illusion can move as well.

    PH, page 203, about spell range: "Once a spell is cast, it's effects aren't limited by its range unless the spell description says otherwise."

    https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/14...orce-on-a-bag/
    JC's answer doesn't say or imply that the illusion can move out of the 10ft cube.

    Compare and contrast to Silent Image, which explicitly allows the image to move to any spot within range.

    Edit: Actually, looking at the spell more closely, since it's in the targets head it may be able to move freely relative to the target, if appropriate to the illusion being created. I very well may have been nerfing this spell hard.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2018-01-02 at 06:48 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    hellgrammite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    JC's answer doesn't say or imply that the illusion can move out of the 10ft cube.

    Compare and contrast to Silent Image, which explicitly allows the image to move to any spot within range.
    Agreed, that is explicit in silent image, but doesnt mean the phantasmal force can't. But I have an open mind if you can show me explicity why the imagine projected from a target's mind couldn't move. I gave you two rulings that would lean to say it could, including a rule in PHB if a spell isnt explicit.
    Last edited by hellgrammite; 2018-01-02 at 06:49 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrammite View Post
    Agreed, that is explicit in silent image, but doesnt mean the phantasmal force can't. But I have an open mind if you can show me explicity why the imagine projected from a target's mind couldn't move.
    I'll reply with my edit, since it was simultaneous to you posting:
    Actually, looking at the spell more closely, since it's in the targets head it may be able to move freely relative to the target, if appropriate to the illusion being created. I very well may have been nerfing this spell hard.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    hellgrammite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I'll reply with my edit, since it was simultaneous to you posting:
    Actually, looking at the spell more closely, since it's in the targets head it may be able to move freely relative to the target, if appropriate to the illusion being created. I very well may have been nerfing this spell hard.
    No problem. Your not exactly just creating an illusion, your spell is going inside the target's mind and he is then projecting an illusion. Debate is useful on sites like this.

    I would argue its one of the more powerful spells you could use at 2nd level. It could bestow conditions like frightened for an entire encounter on a target potentially, while dealing damage.
    Last edited by hellgrammite; 2018-01-02 at 06:52 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    May 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Basically, I'm looking for ways to inflict status conditions such as restrained, blinded, etc. on targets to grant advantage to me and mine and possibly disadvantage to the target(s) as well.
    What kinds of things would inflict those status conditions? Make an illusion of that.

    Honestly, if you're the type of player that needs someone to explain how phantasmal force is useful, then you're probably the type of player that will find the spell less than stellar. The thing is, illusions are all about your creativity.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2018-01-02 at 06:59 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    strangebloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    So I'm not familiar with all of JC's rulings, but here is what phantasmal force can do by strictest RAW:

    Create an illusory object that fits within a ten-foot cube.
    The target sees/hears/touches this object, and must treat it as real.
    The object can deal 1d6 psychic damage a round if pain is part of the illusion.
    The target rationalizes anything that happens with respect to illusion.
    The target needs to spend his action making an investigation check.
    The phantasm dissipates at the end of the duration... but the target doesn't get to automatically know that what he saw was an illusion.

    What is not explicit, but could be allowed within RAW, is the following:

    Creating an illusion that moves and acts within the ten-foot cube. (A deity appears and scolds the target)
    -I'd allow this, because if you don't allow it here you can't allow it for any other of the 'image' line of spells. But by RAW this isn't necessarily how things should work. And the PC should definitely not have real-time control over the image. The image should have a simple program that it follows and be under DM control.

    Creating an illusion that 'sticks' to the target. (A series of gongs appear around the target, clanging. He runs away, and they follow him.)
    -I... would not allow this. Allowing the phantasm to track the target makes the illusion a little too smart, particularly when things like teleportation come into play.

    The object can be interacted with (you trap someone in a hamster ball, and the act of him running lets him keep moving... and the ball moves with him.)
    -I would allow this.

    The object can inflict status effects like 'blind' and 'restrained.'
    -I would NOT allow this. However, you should be able to effectively blind someone, by rendering all of your party 'unseen.' If the target thinks he is restrained, .

    ...And I think that covers it. By default, though, you should be able to do the iron maiden trick, although that won't really work too well on dumb creatures. You should be able to convince a local authority that the illusory man sitting in your caravan is in fact the king in disguise. You should be able to create a phantasmal duplicate of yourself that the target won't be able to distinguish from yourself.

    should

    But DMs are idiots about these things.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    hellgrammite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    What kinds of things would inflict those status conditions? Make an illusion of that.

    Honestly, if you're the type of player that needs someone to explain how phantasmal force is useful, then you're probably the type of player that will find the spell less than stellar. The thing is, illusions are all about your creativity.
    Reading the spell again, even I missed something "The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm."

    The example is falling through an illusionary bridge, and the target thinks he slipped off or something, not that the bridge isn't real. The target will do anything possible to believe the illusion.

    I have not had a character in one of my campaigns use this spell, but realistically once a creature fails the initial save it might be very hard for them to attempt to investigate it. Unless an ally is attempting to convince them, or I rule they are a very intelligent creature, or some strange event happens, they would likely believe it for 1 minute.
    Last edited by hellgrammite; 2018-01-02 at 07:34 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    hellgrammite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Creating an illusion that 'sticks' to the target. (A series of gongs appear around the target, clanging. He runs away, and they follow him.)
    -I... would not allow this. Allowing the phantasm to track the target makes the illusion a little too smart, particularly when things like teleportation come into play.
    I would allow the illusion to stick.

    1) This has been ruled to be allowable as mentioned earlier.
    2) The illusion is 'rooted inside the mind' of the target. While this is an Illusion category spell, it really its written like an enchantment spell, since the illusion is within the creatures mind.

    Its why its called Phantasmal Force. Its a delusion within the creature. It is also a delusion they will believe in almost every circumstance if possible, which to me is quite a powerful description, and damage doesn't break the deception either!
    Last edited by hellgrammite; 2018-01-02 at 08:03 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Aug 2016

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Creating an illusion that moves and acts within the ten-foot cube. (A deity appears and scolds the target)
    -I'd allow this, because if you don't allow it here you can't allow it for any other of the 'image' line of spells. But by RAW this isn't necessarily how things should work. And the PC should definitely not have real-time control over the image. The image should have a simple program that it follows and be under DM control.
    The ability to create a creature who attacks (one of the explicit functions of the spell) would make no sense if the illusion couldn't move.

    RAW its unclear if the spellcaster can choose not to inflict the damage each turn it they created a damaging illusion (which would undermine the idea that you caster doesn't have turn by turn control) but I'm inclined to agree that I would rule that the spell should just be given a remit when cast and work based on that.

    Creating an illusion that 'sticks' to the target. (A series of gongs appear around the target, clanging. He runs away, and they follow him.)
    -I... would not allow this. Allowing the phantasm to track the target makes the illusion a little too smart, particularly when things like teleportation come into play.
    I think you're on much shakier ground here. The spell doesn't target a 10 foot cube, it targets the mind of a person and can cause them to see an illusion of no more than a 10 foot cube. I would argue whether the illusion will move depends entirely on the nature of the illusion created (which is I believe support by Sage Advice).

    The object can be interacted with (you trap someone in a hamster ball, and the act of him running lets him keep moving... and the ball moves with him.)
    -I would allow this.
    I don't get why you would allow this but not the one above.

    The object can inflict status effects like 'blind' and 'restrained.'
    -I would NOT allow this. However, you should be able to effectively blind someone, by rendering all of your party 'unseen.' If the target thinks he is restrained, .
    Again confused - how do you render the party unseen without conjuring an illusory bag over their head (inflicting blindness).

    ...And I think that covers it. By default, though, you should be able to do the iron maiden trick, although that won't really work too well on dumb creatures.
    Why wouldn't it work on dumb creatures. The phantasm includes sound, temperature and other stimuli (including physical pain). If they aren't intelligent enough to realise its illusory it feels real to them. This spell is at its best with dumb creatures/animals as they'll likely keep wasting their turns trying to interact with the illusion and failing (allowing the party to focus on other combatants in the combat) where a more intelligent foe might just accept whatever thing is only doing d6 damage a turn and start doing something else.

    You should be able to convince a local authority that the illusory man sitting in your caravan is in fact the king in disguise.
    I mean...you can certainly create an illusory person. Convincing him that's the king is an entirely separate matter.

    You should be able to create a phantasmal duplicate of yourself that the target won't be able to distinguish from yourself.
    The only reason I don't see this working is if your DM doesn't let you have any control over the appearance of the illusion which would be an...interesting choice? In practice if you're in combat at the time the enemy is likely to quickly realise one of you is doing a lot more damage than the other.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    strangebloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrammite View Post
    I would allow the illusion to stick.

    1) This has been ruled to be allowable as mentioned earlier.
    2) The illusion is 'rooted inside the mind' of the target. While this is an Illusion category spell, it really its written like an enchantment spell, since the illusion is within the creatures mind.

    Its why its called Phantasmal Force. Its a delusion within the creature. It is also a delusion they will believe in almost every circumstance if possible, which to me is quite a powerful description, and damage doesn't break the deception either!
    That's a completely fair ruling. I actually changed my personal ruling on the topic a couple of times when I was typing this up. I've ran it both ways in games.

    On the one hand, it's in the mind of the creature, so having it stick to the creature makes more sense than having it stick to, say, an arbitrary wall, for instance. On the other hand, it's also rooted in your mind via the concentration mechanic, so it also makes sense for it to be fixed to a point that you're holding in your mind.

    Potato potato.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    hellgrammite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    That's a completely fair ruling. I actually changed my personal ruling on the topic a couple of times when I was typing this up. I've ran it both ways in games.

    On the one hand, it's in the mind of the creature, so having it stick to the creature makes more sense than having it stick to, say, an arbitrary wall, for instance. On the other hand, it's also rooted in your mind via the concentration mechanic, so it also makes sense for it to be fixed to a point that you're holding in your mind.

    Potato potato.
    I didnt have that opinion either until earlier today when I re-read the spell for the post. Being an 'illusion' spell makes one at first blush compare it to other illusion spells.

    Compared to Phantasmal Killer (4th level), there are some interesting pros/cons. There are situations where Phantasmal Force might be stronger if your interested in keeping a creature out of combat longer (Phantasmal Killer deals a massive amount of damage each turn, but also gives them a save every turn.) As written, I am not sure a target of Phantasmal Force would make an investigation check every turn, or at all in some cases.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Okay, I think I've got a way to accomplish what I want...

    Say I create an illusion of wither rings of flame or a cylinder of fire surrounding the target and about five inches from their body. Since fire can be passed through, if they touch it the effect of PF would inflict 1d6 damage they would consider fire damage (per the spell effect even though it's really psychic damage). Since they can't move far without touching the illusion, couldn't that cause them to believe they are restrained by the flames, resulting in the restrained condition? If I kept the flames lower than the victim's head, they could still see, so no blinded condition. Would this achieve what I would want to have happen? (meaning they are restrained and provide advantage to anyone who attacks them?)
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2017

    Default Re: So sell me on Phantasmal Force a.k.a. how can it possibly be useful?

    Tomb of Annihilation. We'd just arrived in Omu, we were lv4, and we ran into a CR10 Froghemoth. It could've easily wiped the party.

    It failed its Int Save against Phantasmal Force, and suddenly, Ubtao, god of those ancient lands, rose from the water and started shouting at it like Hulk Hogan. "OOOOOH YEAH, UBTAO'S GONNA SMASH YA! UBTAO'S GONNA TAKE YOU OUT TO DINNER AND NEVER CALL BACK, BROTHER!"

    Every time its attention would turn back to the party, I would make a great show of having the illusory hogan take the trash talk to the next level while punching it in the head.

    Towards the end of the fight, I was literally walking around the game table with my arms out, showboating for an invisible audience, shouting about how Ubtao was GONNA BRING THE PAIN AGAIN AND AGAIN.

    This managed to lock the froghemoth down for a full minute, while the party chipped it to death.

    That's how we won a CR10 fight at lvl4, without taking a single point of damage. Phantasmal Force rocks, you've just gotta get creative with it.
    Last edited by polymphus; 2018-01-02 at 08:49 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •