You just gained a level in real life! What class would you take?

[Celestia]

Not 26 int, but at least 16, maybe 18(the average human actually is really, really stupid). You leave a developed country school with a 12-14 anyway. Otherwise, yes, psion, out of which telepathy is most exploitable.

Actually, the average human has *shock and horror* average intelligence. IQ is a bell curve with most people concentrated in the middle. Almost everyone you meet will have an IQ between 80 to 120, and chances are, so do you. If we're applying D&D stats to this, then average is, of course, 10, and most people are between 8 and 12. School does not change this. School gives you knowledge, not intelligence. An 18 is literally the smartest that a human can possibly be (at first level). That's not something that just anyone will have; that's the Einsteins and the Hawkings of D&D world.

[martixy]

Actually, the average human has *shock and horror* average intelligence. IQ is a bell curve with most people concentrated in the middle. Almost everyone you meet will have an IQ between 80 to 120, and chances are, so do you. If we're applying D&D stats to this, then average is, of course, 10, and most people are between 8 and 12. School does not change this. School gives you knowledge, not intelligence. An 18 is literally the smartest that a human can possibly be (at first level). That's not something that just anyone will have; that's the Einsteins and the Hawkings of D&D world.

I disagree. A lot.

What you're missing here is scale and context. Leading to statements full of assumptions.

Assumption #1: IQ as an infallible measure of intelligence. That's not true.
Assumption #2: 10 points of IQ = 1 ability point - we have no reference for this so this is pure speculation.
Assumption #3: D&D average = real world average. It's not. I'd imagine peasants in D&D are a lot, lot stupider than Joe Schoe of today.
Assumption #4: 18 is the peak of human intelligence(in game or otherwise). It isn't. Just because the game said so, doesn't make it true. Contextual examples are a better metric. The easier metric, which I have looked up, so can assert with some manner of certainty is strength, where peak human is about 22-24 strength.

And the last one is flat-out wrong. School CAN and does teach what D&D defines as intelligence - the ability of critical thinking and problem solving. Those are skills that can be improved with concerted effort, not some kind of mystical talent you are born with and can never get better at.

[Telonius]

There is a fair amount of selection bias, too. People who play D&D are probably not going to be representative of people, in general. I'd expect Int to skew higher. But, that's not the rules of the game; it'll devolve into yet another "what are your D&D stats?" thread if we start doing that.

[Celestia]

I disagree. A lot.

What you're missing here is scale and context. Leading to statements full of assumptions.

Assumption #1: IQ as an infallible measure of intelligence. That's not true.

And neither is D&D's version of intelligence. Besides, it's the best we've got, unless you know of some other method that would be better.

Assumption #2: 10 points of IQ = 1 ability point - we have no reference for this so this is pure speculation.

Nope. Coincidence. 10 is average, and with rolling 3d6, it creates a bell curve around that. Though, I suppose the average roll is actually 10.5, so it would have been more accurate of me to say that the bell curve rests on 8 to 13, instead.

Assumption #3: D&D average = real world average. It's not. I'd imagine peasants in D&D are a lot, lot stupider than Joe Schoe of today.

The average intelligence of humanity has not meaningfully changed in tens of thousands of years. A commoner in Mesopotamia was roughly as smart as a commoner today. I imagine, in D&D, it's not much different.

Assumption #4: 18 is the peak of human intelligence(in game or otherwise). It isn't. Just because the game said so, doesn't make it true. Contextual examples are a better metric. The easier metric, which I have looked up, so can assert with some manner of certainty is strength, where peak human is about 22-24 strength.

True. With level up bonuses, a human can get up to 23. That requires gaining experience points, however, which is not something easily done in our world. I'm sure most of us are all still low level.

More than that, however, is the fact that high level characters in D&D are suppose to represent mythical figures and superheroes. Their peak is above normal human range. Sure, a human in D&D can get above 18, but that's not for the typical person. Thus, as far as we're concerned, 18 effectively is the peak.

And the last one is flat-out wrong. School CAN and does teach what D&D defines as intelligence - the ability of critical thinking and problem solving. Those are skills that can be improved with concerted effort, not some kind of mystical talent you are born with and can never get better at.

Fair point. Those are things than can be taught, but are they? When I was in school, all I was taught were facts and figures. That's what our schools do. They teach rote memorization, not critical thinking. As such, my point still stands.

[martixy]

There is a fair amount of selection bias, too. People who play D&D are probably not going to be representative of people, in general. I'd expect Int to skew higher. But, that's not the rules of the game; it'll devolve into yet another "what are your D&D stats?" thread if we start doing that.

That too. Though I'd argue you picked the wrong "selection". More like "people who engage with these forums" than "play D&D". Though there's that too, since it's a hobby requiring a lot of free time and some disposable income and at least knowledge of english(only with 5e did they decide on a more concerted localization effort). All these factors tend to skew the demographics a certain way.

[Quertus]

That too. Though I'd argue you picked the wrong "selection". More like "people who engage with these forums" than "play D&D". Though there's that too, since it's a hobby requiring a lot of free time and some disposable income and at least knowledge of english(only with 5e did they decide on a more concerted localization effort). All these factors tend to skew the demographics a certain way.

People who post on this forum seem, on average, above the norm. I don't know that I'd say that about most forums.

[Deophaun]

Nope. Coincidence. 10 is average, and with rolling 3d6, it creates a bell curve around that. Though, I suppose the average roll is actually 10.5, so it would have been more accurate of me to say that the bell curve rests on 8 to 13, instead.

Standard deviation on a 3d6 is a little under 3. SD in IQ is 15. So an Int of 19 would translate to 145. Einstein, at 160, would have an Int of 22. And the highest IQ meassured of 190 would be 28.

The obvious problem here is that, at the low end of the IQ chart, you start converting into negative values for Int

Anyway, this is all besides the point as the stats have nothing to do with who we are and solely exist for the purpose of assigning game abilities: so Red Fel's sheet is stuck with the same limits to Int as everyone else's.

[Falontani]

This seems interesting. I will take my first level in Death Master with the following stats: 8 str, 9 dex, 11 con, 13 int, 10 wis, 12 cha. My feats will be Alacritous Cogitation and Profane Lifeleech. The first to allow me to choose what spells I want instead of always needing to choose daily, I'm already late enough as it is. Profane Lifeleech will help if I'm ever in danger, I just hope that my wife and child aren't nearby when I need to use it.
With the spells Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, and Touch of Fatigue my life has a new father will be vastly easier, add in my level 1 spells of Command and Unseen Servant my quality of life will be much easier.

[Red Fel]

Not 26 int, but at least 16, maybe 18(the average human actually is really, really stupid). You leave a developed country school with a 12-14 anyway. Otherwise, yes, psion, out of which telepathy is most exploitable.

Yeah, while I have no doubts of Fel's intelligence IRL, claiming that he's allowed a 26 when the rest of us are limited to a 15 at best is kinda BS, especially for someone that the Playground acknowledges of a paragon of Law (and Evil, but the Law is the important one here).

Actually, the average human has *shock and horror* average intelligence. IQ is a bell curve with most people concentrated in the middle. Almost everyone you meet will have an IQ between 80 to 120, and chances are, so do you. If we're applying D&D stats to this, then average is, of course, 10, and most people are between 8 and 12. School does not change this. School gives you knowledge, not intelligence. An 18 is literally the smartest that a human can possibly be (at first level). That's not something that just anyone will have; that's the Einsteins and the Hawkings of D&D world.

Anyway, this is all besides the point as the stats have nothing to do with who we are and solely exist for the purpose of assigning game abilities: so Red Fel's sheet is stuck with the same limits to Int as everyone else's.

Does nobody remember how, in the last thread, I linked the post where we conclusively established¹ that I have 26 Int? I feel like that's relevant.

Also, I'm a villain. We're supposed to have higher stats. It makes things more challenging for the rest of you.

Come on, people. Don't bogart all of the Int points.

¹ By "conclusively established," I of course mean, "I said so, and at least one person ultimately agreed."

[Deophaun]

Come on, people. Don't bogart all of the Int points.

Now, now. You're going to PaO into a Sarrukh regardless.

[digiman619]

Does nobody remember how, in the last thread, I linked the post where we conclusively established¹ that I have 26 Int? I feel like that's relevant.

Also, I'm a villain. We're supposed to have higher stats. It makes things more challenging for the rest of you.

Come on, people. Don't bogart all of the Int points.

¹ By "conclusively established," I of course mean, "I said so, and at least one person ultimately agreed."

I'm not saying you're not that smart; my objection is that you're using your IRL Intelligence to affect your stats. I'm really hardy and rarely get sick, and when I do, I' usually fine within a day or two. That doesn't mean that I should get a 24 CON. The rules were "You get a level per year, use the nonelite or standard array for your stats." You are blatantly cheating the rules on this one.

[ben-zayb]

I hope this isn't the case of people getting worked up over something equivalent to a stranger yelling "I'm smart!"

[digiman619]

I hope this isn't the case of people getting worked up over something equivalent to a stranger yelling "I'm smart!"

No, it's "I'm so smart that the rules don't apply to me" by someone heralded as a paragon of Law. If he was the Chaotic Evil guy on the Playground, it'd at least be in character.

[The Great Wyrm]

I remember posting in the old thread about Red Fel's Int. I think it's possible, although unlikely, that it could be 26 IRL. A score of 26 corresponds to a z-score of (26 - 10.5)/2.958 = 5.24, which is equivalent to an IQ of 179. There have been people this smart, so this is possible. However, I would regard this as an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.

Of course, scores above 20 aren't unreasonable, especially since I expect GitP to be a nerdier, more intelligent subset of the general population. If we're going by IQ to Int direct conversions, my Int would be 21. I think the psion idea expressed earlier in this thread is probably the best option for an IRL character, and that's what I would do.

[Deophaun]

No, it's "I'm so smart that the rules don't apply to me" by someone heralded as a paragon of Law. If he was the Chaotic Evil guy on the Playground, it'd at least be in character.

And now you see that it was all a ploy, a carefully constructed ruse carried out meticulously for years in order to get a dozen extra points of Int in a fun, annual "what if?" thread that didn't even exist when he adopted the persona.

Of course, though, Red Fel knew it would exist. Whether through his mastery of chaos theory applied to social models in the context of electronic media, or through subtle manipulation, it matters not. His mind is greater than ours, and his methods beyond our comprehension.

This plan, this masterpiece or munchkinry, and he would have gotten away with it, if not for you meddling kids!

[Elricaltovilla]

The idea that your "in game stats" have any bearing on your real life ability (or vice versa) has already been contradicted by the OP. So comparing one to the other is pointless. I too chafe under the restrictions imposed by the build requirements provided in the opening post but that doesn't mean I can't work to maximize the effectiveness of my character and have a little fun along the way.

If Red Fel wants to say he has a 26 INT, that's fine. It doesn't matter to me all that much since he and I will likely never clash on the field of battle, and if we do I plan to be well prepared for that event. I've already spent the last two years gathering an army of young fanatics that I can mold into an elite fighting force poised to...

Damn, I really need to stop monologuing.

[Red Fel]

I've already spent the last two years gathering an army of young fanatics that I can mold into an elite fighting force poised to...

Damn, I really need to stop monologuing.

It was a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude!

[Zehinoc]

Hi! Question for the OP, can we use the generic classes from Unearthed Arcana? Arcane Spellcaster looks pretty sweet. Thanks!

EDIT: Also, are we PCs or NPCs as far as Heroic Spirit from ECS is concerned?

[digiman619]

Hi! Question for the OP, can we use the generic classes from Unearthed Arcana? Arcane Spellcaster looks pretty sweet. Thanks!

EDIT: Also, are we PCs or NPCs as far as Heroic Spirit from ECS is concerned?

Well, seeing as some of us are using 3rd party Pathfinder, you should be fine there.

[Troacctid]

Well, seeing as some of us are using 3rd party Pathfinder, you should be fine there.

You should only be using official material. I just don't know Pathfinder well enough to know which classes are 3rd party.

[Elricaltovilla]

Well, seeing as some of us are using 3rd party Pathfinder, you should be fine there.

I've no idea what you're talking about, good sir.

[digiman619]

You should only be using official material. I just don't know Pathfinder well enough to know which classes are 3rd party.

Then I suck way more because I had the audacity to not pick a caster. Because Martials Can't Have Nice Things, especially when forced to use the nonelite array. Even if i used IRL attributes to cheese the system, I still suck because I didn't want to cast spells.

[Elricaltovilla]

You should only be using official material. I just don't know Pathfinder well enough to know which classes are 3rd party.

Then I suck way more because I had the audacity to not pick a caster. Because Martials Can't Have Nice Things, especially when forced to use the nonelite array. Even if i used IRL attributes to cheese the system, I still suck because I didn't want to cast spells.

Yeah, unfortunately Pathfinder is even more "Spells or GTFO" than 3.5 was. There are no first party alternatives to vancian magic, and the stat and feat requirements for anyone who wants to do something other than sling spells are much more steep (feats in particular).

[Troacctid]

That's fine. I wouldn't expect most people to take classes like Fighter anyway. It would be a weird choice, given the nature of the exercise, to not want at least a little magical ability.

[Quertus]

You should only be using official material. I just don't know Pathfinder well enough to know which classes are 3rd party.

After taking your level of Paladin, you speak the words and find that nothing happens. You aren't sure why it didn't work. Your first level is locked in as Paladin.

You found that any attempts to bestow a purely beneficial curse failed. Experimentation revealed that it was possible to include beneficial effects in a curse, but only if they were accompanied by negative side effects. In the process, you and/or anyone else you tested this on probably acquired some curses that were more uncomfortable than intended, which you'll probably want to remove.

Hmmm... This is a different tenor than I recall from previous years. Was this thread series always intended for Exploration?

Ok, let me try a few, rather than playing things close to my chest, as I have been.

Back when I picked my original class (Crusader), it sounds like yes, I was right that I "knew" Homebrew failed. What I didn't know until the second thread was that my selection of Elan was not an option. Would I have known that getting a new, immortal body was off the table when specifying my first level?

When thinking about other classes at first and on level up, do I get a sense of what my options are and what is valid? For example, I'm assuming from the above "only official material" comment, that no amount of imagining custom spells or maneuvers would allow me to fill spells known or maneuvers known slots? Similarly with refluffing, that doesn't fill slots either?

On a related note to everyone, not just the OP, creating custom spells is a thing from core on - are there any official rules for how Sorcerers do so? Arcane Spellcasters? Any rules whatsoever related to creating custom maneuvers? Because I make things - that's what I do. I don't really know how to have an approach that doesn't involve Creation.

Do flaws I took stack with my existing flaws? This is an even bigger issue if, say, refluffs I considered successfully filed slots without actually being refluffed.

Do things that would provide me with XP in D&D work to fuel my Sculpt Self feat, or was it a wasted feat? Do I have a feel for my XP?

Oh, question to all: how does retaining work? Does it normally carry a cost?

We'll start with these.

[digiman619]

That's fine. I wouldn't expect most people to take classes like Fighter anyway. It would be a weird choice, given the nature of the exercise, to not want at least a little magical ability.

Yeah, here's the thing: I did!​ Magic =/= Spellcasting. And I chose to go Monk of the Four Winds + Beastsoul Monk (Which grants magical ability) from the first thread and stated it was 3rd party there. It's two years too late to be picky now.

[Troacctid]

Hmmm... This is a different tenor than I recall from previous years. Was this thread series always intended for Exploration?

Well, people ask "Does this work?" and if I answer "You don't have that information when you make your decision," and they take the experimental choice, I suppose I have to tell them the results for their next decision point. 🤷🏻

Back when I picked my original class (Crusader), it sounds like yes, I was right that I "knew" Homebrew failed. What I didn't know until the second thread was that my selection of Elan was not an option. Would I have known that getting a new, immortal body was off the table when specifying my first level?

Yes.

When thinking about other classes at first and on level up, do I get a sense of what my options are and what is valid? For example, I'm assuming from the above "only official material" comment, that no amount of imagining custom spells or maneuvers would allow me to fill spells known or maneuvers known slots? Similarly with refluffing, that doesn't fill slots either?

Official material.

Do flaws I took stack with my existing flaws? This is an even bigger issue if, say, refluffs I considered successfully filed slots without actually being refluffed.

Everything is added on top of your real-life abilities. Any existing flaws you may have, have no effect on your D&D stats.

Do things that would provide me with XP in D&D work to fuel my Sculpt Self feat, or was it a wasted feat? Do I have a feel for my XP?

You didn't know how xp works—or when or how or if you might level up further—when you make your initial decision. After experimenting with your new abilities, you found that xp costs require you to gain experience in the literal sense: by having meaningful life experiences that build character.

Oh, question to all: how does retaining work? Does it normally carry a cost?

See Player's Handbook II, Chapter 8.

Yeah, here's the thing: I did!​ Magic =/= Spellcasting. And I chose to go Monk of the Four Winds + Beastsoul Monk (Which grants magical ability) from the first thread and stated it was 3rd party there. It's two years too late to be picky now.

I believe I did technically say "Pathfinder," not "Pathfinder-Compatible."

Anyway, I think it's still interesting to talk about how your answer would change under different restrictions, so I do encourage giving different answers for different rule sets. The whole thing is a hypothetical, after all. Having a baseline, however, helps keep everyone playing by the same rules, which you did say earlier was a valuable thing, right?

[KillingAScarab]

Well, seeing as some of us are using 3rd party Pathfinder, you should be fine there.

I've no idea what you're talking about, good sir.

Look, I just want to be super friends with a water elemental and have adventures where we explore submerged cities (and maybe eventually sorta be responsible for the submerging). Is that so bad that it came from playtest materials?

[digiman619]

I believe I did technically say "Pathfinder," not "Pathfinder-Compatible."

Anyway, I think it's still interesting to talk about how your answer would change under different restrictions, so I do encourage giving different answers for different rule sets. The whole thing is a hypothetical, after all. Having a baseline, however, helps keep everyone playing by the same rules, which you did say earlier was a valuable thing, right?

With respect, Pathfinder has the biggest and most influential 3rd party scene of any RPG to date; Paizo has officially reccomended some 3PP for supporting mechanics they don't want to.

[Vizzerdrix]

Look, I just want to be super friends with a water elemental and have adventures where we explore submerged cities (and maybe eventually sorta be responsible for the submerging). Is that so bad that it came from playtest materials?

Oooooh. Ive always wanted to live in a mostly abandonded city where the bottom half of buildings are under water and it is warm and clear enough to see the streets and cars at the bottom. With small bridges and ramshackle boats used to go from one place to another.