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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Nov 2010

    Default a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    I want to use kensai to play a tortle monk who uses a walking cane as his kensai weapon, think oogway from kungfu panda :)

    the tortles shell is worded differently to any other armour or natural armour and just says it has a base of 17 which is unaffected by dexterity.

    how would that work with uparmoured defence. would 10 be considered the base number so AC becomes 17+dex (0)+wis or is it an either or, either 17 or 10+dex+wis

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Jul 2013
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    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    Nope. It's like wearing an armor: it changes your base calculation. So tortle monk would use either 17 or 10+wis (monk's base calculation) + Dex, whichever is better.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
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    Italy
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    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    Take this as an opportunity to build a strength monk ;)
    Last edited by Lombra; 2018-01-03 at 07:35 AM.
    English isn't my first language, so I will likely express myself poorly.
    Please assume that I'm arguing in good faith, and that I mean no offense to anybody.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
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    Florida

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    "Either 17 or 10 + Dex + Wis" is RAI, without a doubt, but personally I'd rule any playable race's Natural Armor a bit differently and say that it absolutely stacks with Unarmored Defense. For Tortles specifically, I'd say that you can't ever add your Dex to your AC, but that Unarmored Defense lets you add the other stat.

    IE, Monks let your AC be 17 + Wis, Barbarians let it be 17 + Con. And if you could actually get your DM to let you be a Tortle Bladesinger, you'd have a DC of 17 + Int while your Bladesong was active.

    Tortles aren't actually that great a pick for any class except Cleric or Ranger, really, and that's specifically if you're going with Strength-based builds... and if you're going a Strength-based build with Cleric, you've probably already picked a Domain that gives you Heavy Armor Proficiency, so that still makes it kind of "meh" due to the doubling-up. Letting Unarmored Defense work with their Natural Armor makes them a little more viable—and honestly just makes the most sense to me, since "well either their shell stops working just because they've tapped into their inner power and harnessed their body's energy, or unlike any other Monk they just can't figure out how to use their inner balance and power to protect themselves, and if they go from Dex 16/Wis 18 up to Dex 18 or Wis 20 they suddenly do learn how to do that and no longer get any benefit from having a hard-ass shell"... that just seems completely ridiculous.

    ETA: I got a little off-topic. My point (mostly) is that RAI, you either apply the Tortle's Natural Armor or you have the Monk's Unarmored Defense, and they don't stack in any way at all. But if you're not playing Adventurer's League, it's worth asking your DM how they personally would rule it before deciding how you want to do your build. Just expect them to go with RAI, and be pleasantly surprised if they don't!
    Last edited by MxKit; 2018-01-03 at 07:03 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    Throw in a Shield on a Tortle, that'll be 19 CA lv 1. Not bad.
    Signed

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    Quote Originally Posted by MxKit View Post
    "Either 17 or 10 + Dex + Wis" is RAI, without a doubt, but personally I'd rule any playable race's Natural Armor a bit differently and say that it absolutely stacks with Unarmored Defense. For Tortles specifically, I'd say that you can't ever add your Dex to your AC, but that Unarmored Defense lets you add the other stat.

    IE, Monks let your AC be 17 + Wis, Barbarians let it be 17 + Con. And if you could actually get your DM to let you be a Tortle Bladesinger, you'd have a DC of 17 + Int while your Bladesong was active.

    Tortles aren't actually that great a pick for any class except Cleric or Ranger, really, and that's specifically if you're going with Strength-based builds... and if you're going a Strength-based build with Cleric, you've probably already picked a Domain that gives you Heavy Armor Proficiency, so that still makes it kind of "meh" due to the doubling-up. Letting Unarmored Defense work with their Natural Armor makes them a little more viable—and honestly just makes the most sense to me, since "well either their shell stops working just because they've tapped into their inner power and harnessed their body's energy, or unlike any other Monk they just can't figure out how to use their inner balance and power to protect themselves, and if they go from Dex 16/Wis 18 up to Dex 18 or Wis 20 they suddenly do learn how to do that and no longer get any benefit from having a hard-ass shell"... that just seems completely ridiculous.

    ETA: I got a little off-topic. My point (mostly) is that RAI, you either apply the Tortle's Natural Armor or you have the Monk's Unarmored Defense, and they don't stack in any way at all. But if you're not playing Adventurer's League, it's worth asking your DM how they personally would rule it before deciding how you want to do your build. Just expect them to go with RAI, and be pleasantly surprised if they don't!
    It isn't only RAI. It's clearly written in the player's handbook. 21 AC at level 1 without item investment is pretty broken. Plus it's already more than a monk or barbarian could ever reach.
    English isn't my first language, so I will likely express myself poorly.
    Please assume that I'm arguing in good faith, and that I mean no offense to anybody.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    Raw & rai.
    Signed

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    That's cool, I thought it was that way round.

    it's a shame that the kensai doesn't really work as a swordmaster as it should fluff wise but the moment I saw this class I pictured an old man with a cane and the tap tap tap as he used it to block blows like a shield while waiting for his opening to punch the guy across the room.

    also tempted to take my other kensai weapon as a dart to utilise kensais shot, deft strike and sharpen the blade, along with the sharpshooter feat to every so often suprise the enemy by throwing a tiny dart 60ft through cover for 2d4+1d6+16 damage (assuming 16 str) with only a net -2 to hit

    it isn't mechanically optimised but I love the image in my head
    Last edited by Camman1984; 2018-01-03 at 08:07 AM. Reason: typo

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    What about the guy that uses a Longbow to attack ranged and to defend himself on melee?

    Lv 3 you'll be able to deal 1d8+1d4+3 (+10 ss), if they come melee you flurry for 3d4+9

    Lv 5: 2d8+2d4+8 (+20 ss), if they come melee you flurry for 4d6+16+Stun+2 AC. If you want to attack and engage with +2 AC: 1d8+4 (+10 ss) + 3d6 + 12 + Stun.

    Solid.

    As a melee you can use Dual Wielder feat for +1 AC. Would have 18+(2 kensai) by lv 4. Or Defensive Duelist for extra flavor and +prof to AC/reaction WITH a Longbow.

    Some cool stuff going on for Kensai.
    Last edited by BobZan; 2018-01-03 at 08:37 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    I do like the idea of the archer that beats the snot out of you if you get close without even dropping the bow, it isn't exactly what I want for this character but something to consider.

    related to the original query, I have in my head a funny image of some giant monster pinning the tortle monk down thinking he has the better of him as he can't move around, only for his head and legs to disapear inside the shell.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Mar 2017
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    Male

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    I actually think that there is something to the Battlemaster Tortle using the Mariner Fighting style.

    18 AC at level 1, +2 to strength, a swim speed, can hold their breath for an hour and Unarmed strkes to use while grappling. Dip 1 or 2 levels into Rogue for expertise and possibly the Rogue bonus actions and you have yourself a pretty decent build. Disarming strike against someone you grapple, then drag them away from their weapons. Grapple them and dive into a river sitting at the bottom until the drown. You are a pretty decent character.
    My first Homebrew: Martial Archeype - Fencer - Feel free to PM thoughts

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    Depending on if DNDbeyond racial feats are ok. If you preordered Xans it came with some racial feats, not 100% WotC but kind of a gray area. It had this.

    Tortle Protector: Tortle shell gets +1 more ac, +1 str or +1 wis, and some defense once per rest to the friends.

    I like the idea of a Tortle barbarian ancestral guardian with Tortle protector a shield and a one hander.

    Barbarians make the best use of this in my opinion.

    A barbarian can't normally use heavy armor, so with that they can get heavy armor ac, and don't have to have as good of a dex as some barbarians.

    If your DM gives out magic items based on need or random roll and not just, "Oh it has magic armor +1 or weapon +1 or focus +1" every time, you could get some bracers of armor and a cloak of protection.

    Tortle ancestral barbarian with cloak of protection, and bracers of armor with Tortle protector and a +3 shield could have a 26 ac.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Depending on if DNDbeyond racial feats are ok. If you preordered Xans it came with some racial feats, not 100% WotC but kind of a gray area. It had this.

    Tortle Protector: Tortle shell gets +1 more ac, +1 str or +1 wis, and some defense once per rest to the friends.

    I like the idea of a Tortle barbarian ancestral guardian with Tortle protector a shield and a one hander.

    Barbarians make the best use of this in my opinion.

    A barbarian can't normally use heavy armor, so with that they can get heavy armor ac, and don't have to have as good of a dex as some barbarians.

    If your DM gives out magic items based on need or random roll and not just, "Oh it has magic armor +1 or weapon +1 or focus +1" every time, you could get some bracers of armor and a cloak of protection.

    Tortle ancestral barbarian with cloak of protection, and bracers of armor with Tortle protector and a +3 shield could have a 26 ac.
    Useful info: Bracers of Defense doesn't stack with Shield
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: a tortles shell and uparmoured defence

    Quote Originally Posted by BobZan View Post
    Useful info: Bracers of Defense doesn't stack with Shield
    Crap, that's right. Forget the bracers then.

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