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    NinjaGuy

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    Default How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/0...nding.html?m=1

    Long story short I'm going to be potentially straddling some pathfinder and 5e games, so I've been researching my favorite 3.5 class ports to see how balanced they are. I haven't played one in years and I'm looking to play one again.

    Does anyone have experience with this class, and how strong/weak do you think it is? I'm looking to figure out if I can safely bring one to a table without causing problems. I'm also wondering even if it is balanced will it overshadow or disrupt other classes "moments of glory" so to speak, and/or hog the spotlight? I'm asking not just if it is mechanically balanced, but also if it is balanced from a fun perspective, for myself, the party, and the DM?

    Edit: I have, in the past, had severe issues with frustrated DMs whenever I played a Binder. Both in 3.5 and Pathfinder. Even though consensus seemed to be the class was middle of the road or even subpar, many DMs took issue with my unpredictability and versatility, thinking the class was overpowered. I don't want to cause issues, but I really love the core class concept. I have since the original Tome of Magic was released. So moreso than balance my primary concern is will this ruin other player's fun?
    Last edited by Garresh; 2018-01-03 at 02:08 PM.

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    Submortimer's Avatar

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Use this one here:

    http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/0...nding.html?m=1

    It's the proper final version of our Binder.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    Use this one here:

    http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/0...nding.html?m=1

    It's the proper final version of our Binder.
    Edited into OP. Thanks. I realize asking the developer for balance assessment is about the most uselessly biased option available, but uh, how has feedback been? Note I'm not implying bias as a sign of disrespect. I just know from my own homebrewing how hard it can be to be objective, both because of personal bias and because of the difficulty in finding good feedback. Srsly when I did modding good feedback, whether critical or supportive, was worth its weight in gold.

    Anyways, how have players been speaking of it after trying it?

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    I use very little of MFoV's stuff. I don't follow them that much. But they *do* actually test their stuff quite a bit, and they've been around for a long time.

    Based on what I've read, I'd have no trepidation adding any of their homebrew if it suited my campaign. Just read that post. Dude, they took a year to work on it. Most homebrew on the net is afterthoughts or tweaks or poorly-understood mechanics. These folks are gold mines.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    I use very little of MFoV's stuff. I don't follow them that much. But they *do* actually test their stuff quite a bit, and they've been around for a long time.

    Based on what I've read, I'd have no trepidation adding any of their homebrew if it suited my campaign. Just read that post. Dude, they took a year to work on it. Most homebrew on the net is afterthoughts or tweaks or poorly-understood mechanics. These folks are gold mines.
    Hehe. That's the sort of response I'm looking for. I showed it to a DM a while back and they said flat out no cause it was overpowered. Nice to know that people disagree. XD

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Hehe. That's the sort of response I'm looking for. I showed it to a DM a while back and they said flat out no cause it was overpowered. Nice to know that people disagree. XD
    I'd wager he thought it too complicated to learn; claiming it was OP was likely just the easiest way he had to refuse.
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    One thing I can say, is that the Book of Binding is the fourth most popular thing on our store. So I guess people must be playing with it. Though it is free, so...
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Hehe. That's the sort of response I'm looking for. I showed it to a DM a while back and they said flat out no cause it was overpowered. Nice to know that people disagree. XD
    Most people will take one look at most homebrew and denounce it. Which to be fair is mostly because of the amount of just bad homebrew.

    That being said when you break it down and look at it, MFoVs Binder class is very very good. Not saying itís OP but that itís designed well. It has a lot of flavor and options and it doesnít step on anyoneís toes. Itís about on Par with any other 5th Man, and it can certainly be focused into a specific role.

    A solid Gold thumbs up.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Yep MFoV Binder is solid, you wonít be breaking your game by introducing it. They take their time when making base classes to ensure they are good and fit the game.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2018-01-03 at 02:52 PM.

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    Kuulvheysoon's Avatar

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    I find that a lot of the MFoV stuff is the victim of power creep, but their Binder isn't actually too bad.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    I use very little of MFoV's stuff. I don't follow them that much. But they *do* actually test their stuff quite a bit, and they've been around for a long time.

    Based on what I've read, I'd have no trepidation adding any of their homebrew if it suited my campaign. Just read that post. Dude, they took a year to work on it. Most homebrew on the net is afterthoughts or tweaks or poorly-understood mechanics. These folks are gold mines.
    D'aww, thanks.

    Personally, I haven't played one of our Binders in a game yet (which is mostly because I usually DM). From all the testing feedback we've gotten, it's pretty middle of the road in terms of pure power, but it is VERY versatile.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    I've looked it over quite a few times.

    I haven't gone though it properly and really analyzed everything, mostly because there's so much and I don't have three weeks of spare time.

    But in my general assessment, it's OK. Nothing too much to worry about.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Having been fanatical about 3.5's ToM, I can say that I adore the port. I am saddened some vestiges didn't make the jump (Arete, the Triad, and Abysm could certainly take notes from the mystic), but in some cases perhaps it is for the best for game balance (Zceryll, for example).

    Personally, I don't know how well it handles.. but that is something I'll be learning soon enough by experience (Half-Elf Binder, Knight background, with intentions of going Sealed Fate at 3rd). That said, it looks good and captures the flavor of a class I adore. Shame there are no Heterodoxy Rules, not that they are likely to come up nor are they as simple to come up with as 3.5's. For Cleric/Binder, I'd say they's lose their domain but can add 1/3 binder level to cleric casting and add cleric level to binder level for lesser spirits. That said, I don't know the balance there.
    For Paladin/Binder.. I don't have a clue. Divine grace isn't exactly a thing in 5e.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    I think Zcerryl not making the port is a good thing. That was too good and frankly a gigantic red flag. OTOH it could have been redesigned or rebalanced from the ground up, but my annoyance with it makes me not miss it.

    Anyways I took it for a spin last night. Level 1. My cover story was a traveling bard with magic initiate to keep people from asking questions when I do weird stuff.

    So far, in terms of features I'd say I feel comparable to another player, but it was a pretty horrible session for testing abilities since it was mostly a session of research and intel gathering(where I helped somewhat) with only a few rounds of combat during which our OP fighter ended things too fast for me to help.

    Seriously, the entire session I had a fight end before I took a turn, failed to open a door before another fight ended(I was in another room when we got ambushed in an allegedly safe area), got put to sleep first round next fight, and then tried to Faerie Fire an invisible enemy but hit the paralyzed Ranger instead(who was on the floor in a dark room so I fired blind).

    But none of that was a fault of the class. It was just a mixture of hilariously bad luck on my part and our Fighter critting for like 25 damage with a Great Weapon Power Attack twice in one session.

    Hopefully next session I'll have a more normal experience to judge its power level.

    Edit: I stripped a lot of context for the sake of brevity, but a lot of those weird situations were logical or due to poor decisions, not the DM being a ****.
    Last edited by Garresh; 2018-01-06 at 12:45 PM.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    I think Zcerryl not making the port is a good thing. That was too good and frankly a gigantic red flag. OTOH it could have been redesigned or rebalanced from the ground up, but my annoyance with it makes me not miss it.
    It was a conscious decision on our part not to do most of the non-ToM vestiges, mostly because we had very little experience with them.

    As it is, we are (eventually) going to be rebuilding the class from the ground up to be OGL compliant, so as to make something we can really call our own.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    It was a conscious decision on our part not to do most of the non-ToM vestiges, mostly because we had very little experience with them.

    As it is, we are (eventually) going to be rebuilding the class from the ground up to be OGL compliant, so as to make something we can really call our own.
    From my limited experience so far, I look forward to it. Prolly gonna add you to my Patreon list too.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Actually, while I have your attention, I made a list of questions and possibly oversights.

    The rules on binding in this iteration never state a maximum duration. Given previous context I filled in the blanks, but it doesn't explicitly say pacts end after 24 hours, only that you can bind after a long rest.

    Amon's horns imply you don't have to hit to force a strength save.

    Does Focalor's Spark Gap require a spell targeting only a single creature or only hitting a single creature? i.e. Was it intended to work with Lightning Bolt?

    Do minor spirit attacks count as originating from the binder or outside(so do they benefit from Bless)? Is gustling and a few others being an exception intentional?

    Does the hellhound autofollow you like every other spirit when not "deployed"?

    Aym's spell card doesn't have Ruinous Decree on it.

    Speaking of, Minor Spirits should have cards!

    Does Paimon's Haste effect only affect the binder or can it be cast on others? RAW(ugh) it just says cast it but it implies self target.

    When you Share Vestige Malphas to a Rogue, does the Sneak Attack stack? That's a an edge case and a half. XD

    Minor point. Amon and Aoskar seems really situational. I can think of a situation I'd want to use them for any build, except Aoskar when teleporting.

    Haagenti specifically says the effect of the spell, for Enlarge. Not that you may cast. This implies lack of concentration. Intended?

    New Moon Arrows(Leraje) does not list an action type for activation. If intended it should say no action required.

    Haagenti and Andras cleave effects do not specify an action cost to the extra attack, unlike the normal cleave effects. Intended? May wish to mention no action required if so, but that seems excessively strong.

    Karsus mentions an ability to learn nearly instantly about a vestige. No rules that I saw restrict vestige knowledge. Is this fluff for if a DM wishes to keep vestige knowledge somewhat restricted?

    Minor spirits mention using a bonus action to switch between them, effectively combining dismiss and summon into one action. No clarification is offered on how this works once you can have two minor spirits at once. What is the intent?
    Last edited by Garresh; 2018-01-06 at 10:54 PM.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    I'm so pleased to have come across this thread... Binder was my absolute favorite class from 3.5 and I've been hoping someone who knows what they're doing would make a decent 5e version. Pleased to see the support from several people above, thanks MFoV.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is This Binder Port/Homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Actually, while I have your attention, I made a list of questions and possibly oversights.
    Okay, have at you!

    The rules on binding in this iteration never state a maximum duration. Given previous context I filled in the blanks, but it doesn't explicitly say pacts end after 24 hours, only that you can bind after a long rest.
    You are correct. I'll get some clarification, but this is the intent.

    Amon's horns imply you don't have to hit to force a strength save.
    That's true, and not the intent. You still need to hit to force a save.

    Does Focalor's Spark Gap require a spell targeting only a single creature or only hitting a single creature? i.e. Was it intended to work with Lightning Bolt?
    It is intended to work with single target spells, like Shocking Grasp or Lightning Lure. That said, I don't really have an issue with it working with lightning bolt.

    Do minor spirit attacks count as originating from the binder or outside(so do they benefit from Bless)? Is gustling and a few others being an exception intentional?
    They all count as coming from the binder, so are affected by bless. Minor Spirits aren't familiars or creatures in their own right, mostly just a novel way to distribute cantrips and minor damaging abilities.

    Does the hellhound autofollow you like every other spirit when not "deployed"?
    Yes.

    Aym's spell card doesn't have Ruinous Decree on it.
    So it does not, will fix.

    Speaking of, Minor Spirits should have cards!
    Hah, we will likely do so when we do a full refresh.

    Does Paimon's Haste effect only affect the binder or can it be cast on others? RAW(ugh) it just says cast it but it implies self target.
    It can be cast on others, but as it is cast without a spell slot (and, thus, always at its lowest level) it only targets one creature.

    When you Share Vestige Malphas to a Rogue, does the Sneak Attack stack? That's a an edge case and a half. XD
    yes, they stack.

    Minor point. Amon and Aoskar seems really situational. I can think of a situation I'd want to use them for any build, except Aoskar when teleporting.
    I could see that, but as a low level binder they both offer get benefits in the form of Fire Breath and a small suite of Cleric Cantrips. I'm starting Tomb of Annihilation soon as a binder, and realizing that I may just bind one of these two as my normal vestige.

    Haagenti specifically says the effect of the spell, for Enlarge. Not that you may cast. This implies lack of concentration. Intended?
    I believe so, yes. I'll get clarification.

    New Moon Arrows(Leraje) does not list an action type for activation. If intended it should say no action required.
    Ah, yes, it should.

    Haagenti and Andras cleave effects do not specify an action cost to the extra attack, unlike the normal cleave effects. Intended? May wish to mention no action required if so, but that seems excessively strong.
    It's intended. Binder's are not inherently good at physical combat (and rarely get more than one attack a turn) so we felt that the bonus action was not needed.

    Karsus mentions an ability to learn nearly instantly about a vestige. No rules that I saw restrict vestige knowledge. Is this fluff for if a DM wishes to keep vestige knowledge somewhat restricted?
    Yes. In universe, lore about vestiges is intended to be esoteric, forbidden, and hard to find.

    Minor spirits mention using a bonus action to switch between them, effectively combining dismiss and summon into one action. No clarification is offered on how this works once you can have two minor spirits at once. What is the intent?
    Intent is that you can swap one spirit at a time with a bonus action. I'll edit to improve clarification.

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