Some assistance/tips/critique of my 4E character (homebrew multiclassing)

[brakthir]

Hey guys. I've posted before here and mentioned our GM's homebrewed multiclassing system. I'll go ahead and copy paste this information from a previous thread:

You start as a level 1 fighter. You gain exactly as much experience to go to level 2. At this point, you can decide to multiclass. You choose to multiclass into ranger. Both classes instantly drop back down to 0 experience and you are now a level 1 fighter/level 1 ranger (but considered level 2 for mod+half your level bonuses). Any experience you gain now is halved and split evenly amongst both classes. You gain each of the bonuses separately (you receive 2 feats when both classes hit level 4, for example). You gain all abilities from the other class as normal.

Now, I started as a level 1 half-orc barbarian, hit level 2 and multiclassed into battlerager vigor fighter. My starting stats were 18 str, 16 dex, 15 con, 11 int, 11 wisdom, 14 charisma (rolled stats), not counting the half-orc racial. So, total stats are 20 str, 18 dex, 15 con, 11 int, 11 wisdom, 14 charisma.

My barbarian is also a rageblood. All books are open/viable. So my question is: how would you build this to be the optimal damage dealer with enough tankiness to survive. Our GM creates only homebrewed creatures and combat is usually pretty hard. We've lost multiple characters during this campaign (6-7 months ongoing) and even though this multiclass system seems broken at first, we are facing against some pretty hard mobs.

[Verbannon]

Well it looks like he's murdered 4e's balance, cut it to pieces then did unspeakble things with each piece until they turned to goo.

So find the most broken, op homebrew classes on the net. Multiclass into them. Then fudge your feats and powers so bonuses stack.

Thats my recommendation.

[tiornys]

Pretty sure you want to be wielding a Gouge. Axe for the battlerager bonus (and possibly Headsman's Chop/nice stuff at Epic) + Spear for Rain of Blows, Spear Expertise, and Surprising Charge. I'm out of time for investigating beyond that.

[Yakk]

So damage optimizing 4e is all about taps and bonuses per tap.

Both barbarian and fighter have some great multi-taps. Your next goal is to get some static bonuses.

Follow the rule that standard action 3+ tap > minor action tap =~ immediate tap > standard action two-tap.

It is almost never worth it chasing [W] or bonus dice, unless those dice *apply a second instance of damage*. Because the flat damage of multi-tap is basically the same as the big-tap powers; but if you invest in static damage, the multi-tap outscales the big-tap (and there is nothing you can do similar for big-tap powers).

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Another thing to think about is charge optimization; this, however, requires more items.

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Probably the most abusive things you could have done are too late. For example, a ranger|avenger; their striker features (roll twice and twin strike) stack awesomely, and usually you can only get both at-will at paragon.

Another thing to consider is crit-fishing. Barbarians get some nice payoff from crits. It is hard, however, to increase your threat range at low levels.

If you can afford 13 wisdom, MC avenger's oath can be read as refreshing itself if you manage to drop its target before the EONT. It is very good with that interpretation, and acceptable without it.

[Pramxnim]

When you say you gain all abilities from each class, does this mean you end up with 4 At-Wills, 6 total Encounters, up to 10 Utilities and 6 dailies? How does Paragon and Epic Destinies work in this proposed system? I can't think of too many optimization things right now, but this does seem fun to tinker around with.

[brakthir]

When you say you gain all abilities from each class, does this mean you end up with 4 At-Wills, 6 total Encounters, up to 10 Utilities and 6 dailies? How does Paragon and Epic Destinies work in this proposed system? I can't think of too many optimization things right now, but this does seem fun to tinker around with.

Yup! The only thing you don't gain is the level 1 HP of your 2nd class. Just the per level.

Barb/fighter bit it this evening so debating if I want to roll it again or another class. I love melee.

[Pramxnim]

If you're into the Arcane I'd suggest an Assault Swordmage/Infernal Warlock. Go straight Int/Con while ignoring Strength, and take Eldritch Strike as your non-Pact At-Will. Any Int/Con race will work out here, but Fire Genasi has great synergy with the Assault Swordmage and Infernal Warlock's fire theme.

You can curse an enemy and they'll take extra damage from your Aegis, allowing for great off-turn damage. Hellish Rebuke sets up a catch-22 where your marked target gets punished whatever they choose to do.

At Paragon, Shocking Flame adds 2 damage to all your melee attacks, which is untyped so will stack with Fiery Blood. If you can find a way to reliably take fire damage from an attack (say your Wizard uses a fire AoE that hits you) then Fiery Blood provides additional damage. You'll be a walking inferno while remaining very hard to kill thanks to the constant temp hps provided by your Pact boon and your Defender level Hp + Resists.

Invest some stats into Wisdom or Charisma so you can take Superior Will by at most Epic tier (so 13 starting) to shore up your Will defense (although you get +3 Will from your class choices alone) and you'll be a versatile character whose only weakness is fire immunity.

[Dimers]

Hmm, for melee? Lessee ... I came up with five (suboptimal) ideas.

* Paladin + thaneborn barbarian. Thaneborns get awesome riders on their powers, but nobody plays a Strength-plus-Charisma plain barbarian because they don't hate their AC. Thaneborn + warlord is nice too, more thematic but less tanky.

* Avenger + monk, for a few reasons. There's the +3 and +2 to AC in cloth armor, there's the accuracy that triggers monk's striker feature more, there's the fact that monk movement can make it much easier to get away from massed enemies so you can benefit from your Oath ... they synergize well.

* Warden + serene blade runepriest. Amazing AC (hide armor + shield + Wisdom + Wisdom), a tank's hit points and a degree of flexibility that wardens generally lack.

* Warden + barbarian. Acceptable Constitution-based AC, the most hit points in the game, Font Of Life to shrug off major effects, you can stack rage+guardian dailies, and either thunderborn or rageblood would go well with some aspect of warden.

* Shadar-kai battlemind + assassin. Use Darkening Mind feat for two turns of insubstantial, then trade in your shade form power via Darkness's Wings to do it again. With the Drowning/Doom/Dread feats, all attacks you make while insubstantial will push2, slide1, slow, prone and impose -2 attack. Add in Hunter In The Gloom feat to target Reflex instead of AC while insubstantial. It's my favorite gimmick build.

[Yakk]

To break D&D look for ways to stack class features that Hybrid does not permit.

An easy one might be static damage bonuses plus multiattack features.

Or double stack mark punishment plus force it to trigger.

Or double stack defensive features. Like avenger and monk unarmored. (Breaks things less, because living is weaker than killing)

You could start with hybrid optimization, as those will all work. But so will more combos. MC powerswap and eternal seeker optimization can also be used to find ideas.

[brakthir]

Some great ideas here guys.

Also, bonuses stack, we're not limited by power/feat bonuses being one of a kind. FYI

[Vhaidara]

You can do some silly things by mixing Essentials classes, since they tend to stack bonuses onto your basic attacks

Hexblade Warlock gets you a powerful Arcane MBA (important for other sources of statics)
Elementalist Sorcerer gives you a powerful RBA, allows you to stack Con onto your warlock MBA, and lets you key your AC to Con instead of Dex/Int. You can run normal Sorcerer instead if you'd rather run a Cha/Dex Hexblade like Gloom Pact
Knight Fighter gives you defender aura and allows you to punish with your powerful MBA as an OA

Level 5, let's say Infernal or Elemental Pact (going Con build), you're rocking 1[W]+4+2xCon+Cha on a melee basic

Bladesinger Wizard gives you Steely Retort, so that while you have Bladesong active you can OA people who attack you. Combine with Knight, and anyone next to you who makes an attack gets smacked in the face

[Yakk]

So, catch-22 builds, or just double-dip striker.

Scout|Slayer deals ([W]+Dex*2)*2 off the bat.

Slayer|Ranger(melee) deals ([W]+Dex)*2 + [W]+Str+Dex with an encounter power.

You can double-stack expertise bonuses for super accuracy (especially at higher levels).

You can double-stack weapon-focus style feats; there are a number which deal +2 damage per tap in heroic.

Power bonuses are trickier to stack. You could imagine a team of people each with a power damage bonus aura (Skald maybe?) that together deal insane damage.

Rogue|Dragon-King Warlock gets 5d6+stat damage at level 1. That is a lot of dice.

Fighter|Ranger would just be a melee dominating beast. Would take a while to scale, and might not exploit the stacking rules enough.

[brakthir]

Some insanely good ideas here. So many options.

The reason I originally went barb/fighter was for the THP gain. Getting health when an enemy hits me? Yes. Getting health when I miss or hit an enemy with an invigorating ability? Yes. Getting health when I kill an enemy? Damn.

How would you optimize a fighter/ranger? Would you go Tempest technique? Battlerager? Or normal fighter?

I need something tankyish because this world is NOT friendly to melee.

[Vhaidara]

If you can mix in fighter, I'm a big fan of grabbing Arena Fighter and combining Staff Expertise with a spiked chain. In fact, Arena Fighter with spiked chain abuse gets really fun under these rules, since each expertise feat stacks up accuracy
Flail Expertise: turn slides into prones (grab mark of storm and a lightning weapon for free slides)
Staff Expertise: +1 Reach, on a spiked chain you now have reach 3 and a feat (spiked chain expert) to make it threatening
Light Blade Expertise: damage when you have CA. Like against prone targets.

[brakthir]

If you can mix in fighter, I'm a big fan of grabbing Arena Fighter and combining Staff Expertise with a spiked chain. In fact, Arena Fighter with spiked chain abuse gets really fun under these rules, since each expertise feat stacks up accuracy
Flail Expertise: turn slides into prones (grab mark of storm and a lightning weapon for free slides)
Staff Expertise: +1 Reach, on a spiked chain you now have reach 3 and a feat (spiked chain expert) to make it threatening
Light Blade Expertise: damage when you have CA. Like against prone targets.

How do you select 3 weapons when you're limited to two weapons as Arena Fighter

[Yakk]

How do you select 3 weapons when you're limited to two weapons as Arena Fighter

A Spiked Chain is both a Light Blade and a Flail.

So you pick Spiked Chain and Flail as your Arena weapons.

Then you grab Flail Expertise, and Staff expertise.

You get a +2 to hit, your slides are prone, you get reach 3, spiked chain expert lets you threaten.

You can also stack Light Blade Expertise for another +1 to hit and +1 to damage with CA.

On top of this, you have a 2d4 damage double weapon. Suppose you are a Ranger|Fighter -- you can twin strike with it, each attack slides foes 1, knocks them prone. Then you make the next attack with CA, and slide them another 1. They are also marked.

You can prone them with 1 square between them and your allies. If they stand up (move action) they now have to charge in order to attack, and this means charging past one of your allies. If they charge past you, your OA stops them in their tracks.

As foes approach you, your threatening reach lets you make OAs (+wis to hit) and knock them prone. (Daily power IIRC)

This might not work, as the spiked chain feats are MC feats.

[brakthir]

A Spiked Chain is both a Light Blade and a Flail.

So you pick Spiked Chain and Flail as your Arena weapons.

Then you grab Flail Expertise, and Staff expertise.

You get a +2 to hit, your slides are prone, you get reach 3, spiked chain expert lets you threaten.

You can also stack Light Blade Expertise for another +1 to hit and +1 to damage with CA.

On top of this, you have a 2d4 damage double weapon. Suppose you are a Ranger|Fighter -- you can twin strike with it, each attack slides foes 1, knocks them prone. Then you make the next attack with CA, and slide them another 1. They are also marked.

You can prone them with 1 square between them and your allies. If they stand up (move action) they now have to charge in order to attack, and this means charging past one of your allies. If they charge past you, your OA stops them in their tracks.

As foes approach you, your threatening reach lets you make OAs (+wis to hit) and knock them prone. (Daily power IIRC)

This might not work, as the spiked chain feats are MC feats.

You mean you pick Spiked Chain and Staffs as your Arena weapons.

I got the light blade part now. Its part of the MC feats.

This is a great idea with the exception that it requires a really high level to pull off (8 for that daily stance I believe).

But its amazing nonetheless..

[Vhaidara]

Well, even without getting threatening reach, you still end up with a reach 3 fighter|ranger, which allows you to hand out marks pretty liberally, and can function pretty well to keep you safe. I did it on a straight fighter and it was pretty damn fun.

[brakthir]

Well, even without getting threatening reach, you still end up with a reach 3 fighter|ranger, which allows you to hand out marks pretty liberally, and can function pretty well to keep you safe. I did it on a straight fighter and it was pretty damn fun.

What race would you go? My 2nd set of rolls were 16/14/14/13/12/9

[Vhaidara]

I went Thri Kreen, because i like bug people and was going Str/Dex as my primaries. Str/Wis is also an option, and allows you to take advantage of the Fighter's scale armor (thought Dex focus, hide armor, the arena fighter bonus, and an Elven Chain Shirt does eventually outscale heavy armor). Bugbear is probably a stronger race choice (dealing 2d6 damage with your spiked chain, bonus damage on an attack with CA), and half orc is probably the most universally acceptable (bugbear being a monster race and thri kreen being dark sun bug people)

[brakthir]

I went Thri Kreen, because i like bug people and was going Str/Dex as my primaries. Str/Wis is also an option, and allows you to take advantage of the Fighter's scale armor (thought Dex focus, hide armor, the arena fighter bonus, and an Elven Chain Shirt does eventually outscale heavy armor). Bugbear is probably a stronger race choice (dealing 2d6 damage with your spiked chain, bonus damage on an attack with CA), and half orc is probably the most universally acceptable (bugbear being a monster race and thri kreen being dark sun bug people)

Thoughts on human?

[darkbard]

Because of their floating stat boost, bonus feat, and bonus skill, plus excellent racial feature and support, Human is always an excellent choice in 4E (if not necessarily the best).

[brakthir]

Well, my GM is allowing me to play bugbear...definitely going Arena fighter/ranger.

[Yakk]

Why not a Fighter SuperMC (Swordmage|Ranger) MC Spiked Chain Expert.

Where | is "hybrid", SuperMC is your DM's multiclass rules, and MC is the standard multiclass rules picking up spiked chain expert.

That gives you the swordmage aegis, fighter marks on ranger and swordmage attacks (and really, you only want twin strike at-will) light blades (spiked chains) as implements, and access to a bunch of arcane feats.

I'd grab booming blade swordmage at-will for a close burst 1 that applies a fighter mark.

Quarterstaff Expertise prevents your swordmage attacks from provoking, and they have some nice immediate interrupt ranged powers.

This is, of course, getting stupid.

[brakthir]

Why not a Fighter SuperMC (Swordmage|Ranger) MC Spiked Chain Expert.

Where | is "hybrid", SuperMC is your DM's multiclass rules, and MC is the standard multiclass rules picking up spiked chain expert.

That gives you the swordmage aegis, fighter marks on ranger and swordmage attacks (and really, you only want twin strike at-will) light blades (spiked chains) as implements, and access to a bunch of arcane feats.

I'd grab booming blade swordmage at-will for a close burst 1 that applies a fighter mark.

Quarterstaff Expertise prevents your swordmage attacks from provoking, and they have some nice immediate interrupt ranged powers.

This is, of course, getting stupid.

Oh, he doesn't allow the 4E Hybrid system to work with his own Multiclass system. He considered it weak.