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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    If you want to do a retake of 4e, you should start with the character builder (and maybe monster builder).

    Compatibility can mean a few things.

    0. The playstyle is *like* 4es, on the DM's side.

    1. The playstyle is *like* 4es, on the player's side.

    2. You can rebuild 4e archtypes in this system with similar feel.

    3. You can use existing 4e monsters and encounters drop-in. (3b: with some modifications)

    4. You can use existing 4e characters drop-in. (3b: with some modifications)

    5. You can mix and match 4e feats and options with your heartbreaker system characters and feats (4b: as an option that isn't as balanced)

    (order is not strict)

    Pathfinder aimed for 5b. I'd aim for 2, 3 or 3b, or maybe even 0.

    But before considering it, you need a character builder. I would probably write it as a mobile app.

    ---

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    My personal Heartbreaker would steal things from 5e.

    A character starts with a level in a Race, Background, Class and Subclass. Each grants a HitDie and corresponding HP.

    I'd use presumed competence (attributes don't effect accuracy of abilities, rather effect size) and bounded accuracy.

    Proficiency bonus scales logarithmically. It goes up at 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, 24, 32, 48, 64, etc.

    So you start with +4 proficiency. At L 20 in class and subclass you have 42 HD, so a +10 proficiency bonus (and are roughly 10x as powerful as a starting character in damage and HP).

    Proficiency boosts both attack and defence. Unlike 5e, "Saves" are univerally boosted by Proficiency. "Good saves" will be represented by something like a static bonus or advantage.

    Balance wise, I'd want encounter building to be as easy or easier than 4e. One thing I'm trying to get to work is to make encounter balance be "add up HD". This seems to require that numbers add a significant advantage over single big foes (an outnumber mechanic?) to make up for proficiency gap and the ability to attrition weenies down to reduce damage flux.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeda View Post
    Is that a PF2 jab? The only reason I can think of to expect an increase in the number of fans is if they flee some other game. Otherwise I'd expect a no-longer supported game to stabilize somewhere and slowly bleed out players as people eventually move on.

    I do sometimes think about what I would do differently if I was to try to do the PF treatment to 4e. Would it be better to mostly keep the same game and polish the edges or would it be better to try to take some bigger risks?
    Why would it be a PF2 jab?

    I know nothing about PF2, including whether or not the playtest is proving to be a success.

    However, 4E does solve some of the potential problems of higher level play in 5E so, as those are revealed, I'm simply wondering if some might come back to this former edition. And more obviously, it was built to solve some of the 3.5E problems which might make it attractive to Pathfinder fans. Or not.

    NB: You won't get any edition warring from me: Play what you like. But if you like 4E, email me and I'll make sure you get access to the online tools.
    Cheers
    Scrivener of Doom

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    I've been watching the PF2 playtest thread and apparently a number of people over there are less than enamored by what they have seen. I think some of them expect people to jump ship if the finished project is similar to what they've seen so far.

    I'll admit I was a bit ambivalent about 4e at first, but that changed after settling into campaign and seeing how things actually were in practice. Once I started running a campaign of my own I quickly could tell I probably wasn't going to run a 3e game ever again; 4e was just so much easier to plan and work with.

    I'm glad to know that there are still other people who have interest in the system. I just don't expect there to be a large influx unless something really weird happens.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    ahyangyi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by Verbannon View Post
    The latest version of the offline builder will leave you without most of the later resources. Personally though I find it faster to just use the books and ignore the dragon magazine info. The builder is laggy anyway.
    But then you miss some of the quite important erratas. 4E had more aggressive errata than most systems, partly due to the character builder and the compendium.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by ahyangyi View Post
    But then you miss some of the quite important erratas. 4E had more aggressive errata than most systems, partly due to the character builder and the compendium.
    He was also completely wrong: The latest version of the offline character builder has everything except the items from Halls of Undermountain and it is also not laggy.
    Cheers
    Scrivener of Doom

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeda View Post
    I've been watching the PF2 playtest thread and apparently a number of people over there are less than enamored by what they have seen. I think some of them expect people to jump ship if the finished project is similar to what they've seen so far. (snip)
    PF succeeded because it appealed to people who didn't want radical change. If PF2 involves radical change then they're pitching it to the wrong customer base.

    (snip) I'll admit I was a bit ambivalent about 4e at first, but that changed after settling into campaign and seeing how things actually were in practice. Once I started running a campaign of my own I quickly could tell I probably wasn't going to run a 3e game ever again; 4e was just so much easier to plan and work with.

    I'm glad to know that there are still other people who have interest in the system. I just don't expect there to be a large influx unless something really weird happens.
    I came to 4E late, also, and deliberately avoided forums and online communities for more than a year while all the edition warring and hate was happening. I was running 3.5E and burning out on the workload when I decided to read Piratecat's 4E story hour at ENWorld. I couldn't believe how easy it was for a DM to create things that actually worked, unlike 3.5E where you could spend 4-6 very pleasant *hours* building a CR 20 stat block only to discover that a particular combination of resources your significantly lower level party possessed meant that it lasted less than a round of combat.

    So, I sat down and built a CR16 NPC I needed for my campaign using the 3.5E rules. I then grabbed the PDFs of the 4E books and, in less than an hour, built the same NPC using the 4E rules while simultaneously learning those rules.

    And that was it. 3.5E was dead to me.

    Don't get me wrong, I loved 3.5E and had some of my best campaigns using it as a system (and I've been running D&D since 1981) but I got tired of the workload.

    I still consider 4E as the edition that best fulfils the implied promise of the D&D we thought we were getting as teens in the early 80s: Big damn heroes going on big damn adventures. It's obviously not perfect, but it's the most cinematic edition yet.
    Cheers
    Scrivener of Doom

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrivenerofDoom View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I loved 3.5E and had some of my best campaigns using it as a system (and I've been running D&D since 1981) but I got tired of the workload.

    I still consider 4E as the edition that best fulfils the implied promise of the D&D we thought we were getting as teens in the early 80s: Big damn heroes going on big damn adventures. It's obviously not perfect, but it's the most cinematic edition yet.
    Same here. I loved, and still do love, building a 3.5 character! It's in-depth and crunchy and has a million moving parts. It's the same thrill as, say, tearing apart a clock to learn how it works.

    I just don't have the energy to build 10 new and unique clocks each week to run a game.

    Also agreed on the Big Damn Heroes aspect. My group quickly got tired of low-level 3.5, to the point where most of our games started at level 5. Unfortunately, as those who advocate for the E6 format well know, 3.5 works its best between levels 1-6, maybe up to 10. 4e's ability to let us play competent characters from the get-go, and powerful ones eventually, while the system stayed solid and balanced? Amazing!

    That said, I'm not actually playing 4e these days.

    Mostly I play 13th Age, for the same BDH feel, and the same feeling of competence. It's not as precisely balanced, but it's pretty good, and the classes are more unique. But it also adds in more freeform elements, like freeform skill and ritual systems.

    But man, I still love 4e. It's what got me to really enjoy GMing. I need to play some more soon.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Hello everyone.

    Please, Can somebody tell me where to get the Offline Character Builder for D&D 4e?

    Thanks you.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    An offline tool for character creation is attractive :)
    Last edited by Suzak; 2018-12-03 at 04:40 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    I'm looking for this, if anyone can help me out.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrivenerofDoom View Post
    Why would it be a PF2 jab?

    I know nothing about PF2, including whether or not the playtest is proving to be a success.

    However, 4E does solve some of the potential problems of higher level play in 5E so, as those are revealed, I'm simply wondering if some might come back to this former edition. And more obviously, it was built to solve some of the 3.5E problems which might make it attractive to Pathfinder fans. Or not.

    NB: You won't get any edition warring from me: Play what you like. But if you like 4E, email me and I'll make sure you get access to the online tools.
    I've been modding the crap out of 5E, and as I go, I've come to realize I'm basically importing ideas back from 4E. I bought the original 3 book set when it first came out, and played a couple games, but my group was gunho for 3.P (mostly PF) and I didn't keep up with 4Es development run. (I was also caught up in the whole "Oh noes! 4E is WoW for TTRPG" BS, so I didn't really look back...)

    Now though, I've gone back to the 4E books for inspiration on my 5E modding and basically had a eureka moment. I'm not sure my current group would gravitate to 4E out of the box, but we all wonder why WotC dropped some pretty iconic ideas in favor of poorly executed "poor man" versions.

    If 5E had dropped the powers of 4E but pretty much kept the same mechanics for everything else - and incorporating the Advantage/Disadvantage system on top, it would have been epic. - It still would have kept the flavor and feel of AD&D like they wanted, while progressing forward by building on top of the previous edition, rather than treating it like the redheaded step child.
    Trollbait extraordinaire

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    I'm a huge 4E fan but, for me, the system relies heavily on a good CB. I can't imagine playing 4E without CBLoader. I'm worried that one day my CB will stop working and then what? Everything works great on my Windows 10 machine but that could someday change.

    I haven't tried to create, or maintain, a character without the CB so maybe it's not as daunting as I think...

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    I would say the Compendium is more crucial than the Character Builder. Either one gives you the ability to filter down the massive list of choices, but the Compendium has content that the Character Builder lacks.

    The Character Builder is still extremely nice though. In-app power cards instead of having to make them in a power point template, built-in calculations, built-in filtering, etc.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    All the "character builder" I want is the Compendium and a myth-weavers sheet. Not daunting at all for me. But then I'm also crazy enough to insist on stick-shift for my car, because automatic doesn't do it quiiiiite right. Plus, I'm experienced -- a newbie trying to grok the game would have a hard enough time even WITH the basic tools.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    DM/PM'd and emailed. Fingers crossed and praying to the gods.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    All my emails are up to date so, if you're emailed asking for links, you should have them.

    Interestingly, there's been a resurgence in requests for links to the offline tools. It's not quite a renaissance but it's good to see that there's still interest in my favourite edition of D&D.
    Cheers
    Scrivener of Doom

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    I've been working on a mix of 4th and 5th editions, essentially bringing bounded accuracy to 4th edition (as well as spell slots) - and my players, none of whom have played any 4th edition, are really excited about the things the edition did really well.

    I probably could have simply brought them into a pure 4th ed game and they'd have gravitated to it more than they ever did 5th.

    I suspect more people are giving 4th a look, as it's got a lot of better crunch and feels more like adult DnD than 5th does. 5th has this throwback vibe, but once you get over the happy feeling of being a teen again, you quickly realize why the game outgrew its AD&D roots...

    The primary reason I'm actually making a mashup mod is I don't like the massive numbers 3.PF and 4th ended up going with. I don't want to try to generate DCs in the 30s for late game characters. Where climbing a tree at 1st level was kinda hard, but suddenly that same tree has to be impossible, just to let the 18th level characters have a bit of a challenge? (This is an exaggerated case, obviously).

    BA is far and away the best thing in my opinion that came out of 5th edition. But bring back FRW Defenses, saving throws that end effects, flattened hit points, encounter powers, utility powers (omg, my players love the idea of utility powers - "what? extra spells that are useful that aren't competing with my blasts? Why'd they get rid of those in 5th?" I know, right?)

    I'm just glad there's still a 4th ed community that's active. A quick google search gets me answers to niggling questions.
    Last edited by Theodoxus; 2019-01-28 at 03:31 PM.
    Trollbait extraordinaire

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    The primary reason I'm actually making a mashup mod is I don't like the massive numbers 3.PF and 4th ended up going with. I don't want to try to generate DCs in the 30s for late game characters. Where climbing a tree at 1st level was kinda hard, but suddenly that same tree has to be impossible, just to let the 18th level characters have a bit of a challenge? (This is an exaggerated case, obviously).
    Exaggerated though it may be, I think this is one thing that a lot of people never fully understood, myself included.

    You climb a tree at level 1 - it's DC 10. It's a level 1 challenge.

    You climb that same tree at level 30, it's still DC 10. Because it hasn't stopped being a level 1 challenge.

    It was actually 13th Age's explanation that let me fully understand, DC math is based on the approximate level of the obstacle or terrain, not the players. Yes, most terrain or obstacles that a party faces will likely be around their level, but they don't need to be, if it doesn't make sense.

    Anyways, it doesn't really change your point at all. Just felt like commenting.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    Exaggerated though it may be, I think this is one thing that a lot of people never fully understood, myself included.

    You climb a tree at level 1 - it's DC 10. It's a level 1 challenge.

    You climb that same tree at level 30, it's still DC 10. Because it hasn't stopped being a level 1 challenge.

    It was actually 13th Age's explanation that let me fully understand, DC math is based on the approximate level of the obstacle or terrain, not the players. Yes, most terrain or obstacles that a party faces will likely be around their level, but they don't need to be, if it doesn't make sense.

    Anyways, it doesn't really change your point at all. Just felt like commenting.
    I think I agree; I use the DC tables to set a fixed DC according to the theoretical level of the object (for instance, the owner of the house you are breaking into in lower paragon can afford level 13 locks).

    However, this still creates issues because of the half-level bonus. Ignoring the two mandatory stat bumps, for my verisimilitude a 30th level Dex/Wis rogue who never bumped Str shouldn't be 15 points better at kicking in a door (as opposed to picking the lock) than he was at 1st level.

    Now, you can't get rid of the half level bonus because checks are sometimes made against NADs. So my notional fix is that the DC to kick down the DC 10 door should be read as "DC 10 + half level".

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    A level 30 rogue is a being on par with a demigod.

    At worse, I might ask for a narrative explanation of how she kicks down the door.

    Hell, "I sneak attack its weak spot with my foot" would do, have your +15. Because, demigod level rogue here.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    For the first few weeks of January, I could not believe how many people contacted me for links to the offline tools - it was like a mini 4E renaissance!

    Then, two weeks went by without a single email until a couple of days ago when five requests came in all at once, and all mentioning this thread.

    Just a reminder: Email me if you want the links. scrivenerofdoom is one word; gmail is the host.
    Cheers
    Scrivener of Doom

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrivenerofDoom View Post
    it was like a mini 4E renaissance!
    I wonder how much of the surge is this, or how much might be attributed to the spotty availability of the online tools recently and folks just looking to cover their arses if these outages forecast WotC abandoning the tools soon! (Not that the two are mutually exclusive, of course....)
    Through a series of unfortunate events, my handle on the WotC boards was darkwarlock.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    My cbloader became haywire and I can't find anywhere is get it anymore.
    Can someone PM me where to get it?

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    See this reddit thread for help and to help prevent it from happening again: https://www.reddit.com/r/4eDnD/comme...d_running_the/

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrivenerofDoom View Post
    Why would it be a PF2 jab?

    I know nothing about PF2, including whether or not the playtest is proving to be a success.

    However, 4E does solve some of the potential problems of higher level play in 5E so, as those are revealed, I'm simply wondering if some might come back to this former edition. And more obviously, it was built to solve some of the 3.5E problems which might make it attractive to Pathfinder fans. Or not.

    NB: You won't get any edition warring from me: Play what you like. But if you like 4E, email me and I'll make sure you get access to the online tools.
    Hey, I joined this board just to get some help with a better character builder than what I am currently using. While it is very useful in many ways, pathguy does not have everything I would like and a lot of it probably won't ever be added.

    Name's Christopher, and I appreciate your help. And to anyone else reading who has any other help they can offer me, thank you as well. Been a fan since I first playtested the demo years ago and the Eladrin teleport was a movement option... I miss that option :(

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy_smith View Post
    My cbloader became haywire and I can't find anywhere is get it anymore.
    Can someone PM me where to get it?
    As I've mentioned a few times, email me and I will get the files to you.

    However...

    Quote Originally Posted by masteraleph View Post
    See this reddit thread for help and to help prevent it from happening again: https://www.reddit.com/r/4eDnD/comme...d_running_the/
    ... this is a genuine issue. The simplest way around it is to disconnect from the internet while you're loading up CBLoader. Once the Character Builder is loaded, you can reconnect. Otherwise, the Reddit poster has a more permanent solution.
    Cheers
    Scrivener of Doom

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Hi. You shouldn't use the offline tools if you're a DM, here's why:

    1. Buy the D&D Insider. (very difficult to get a subscription, but I managed to sub this just a month before this post).
    2. Get Fantasy Grounds (might work for Roll20, idk)
    3. Parse all the data using tools available; in other words, download all the data on the monsters from D&DInsider.
    4. Import monsters into the game super easy. Once you know what you are doing, you can drag and drop your fresh PC and your fresh NPC within minutes, and then simply click on their abilities to have them roll fully calculated attacks against calculated defenses.

    It's saved me so many hours that I used to spend building encounters. https://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...t-a-sub/page16

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by hencook View Post
    Hi. You shouldn't use the offline tools if you're a DM, here's why:

    1. Buy the D&D Insider. (very difficult to get a subscription, but I managed to sub this just a month before this post).
    2. Get Fantasy Grounds (might work for Roll20, idk)
    3. Parse all the data using tools available; in other words, download all the data on the monsters from D&DInsider.
    4. Import monsters into the game super easy. Once you know what you are doing, you can drag and drop your fresh PC and your fresh NPC within minutes, and then simply click on their abilities to have them roll fully calculated attacks against calculated defenses.

    It's saved me so many hours that I used to spend building encounters. https://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...t-a-sub/page16
    Or just get the offline tools from me and do the exact same things....
    Cheers
    Scrivener of Doom

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrivenerofDoom View Post
    Or just get the offline tools from me and do the exact same things....
    Yeah, the offline CB and online CB are really the same aside from some search features. I did mention "If you're a DM" though. Do the offline tools have all the monsters?
    Last edited by hencook; 2019-08-02 at 07:26 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Offline Character Builder and CB Loader

    Quote Originally Posted by hencook View Post
    Yeah, the offline CB and online CB are really the same aside from some search features. I did mention "If you're a DM" though. Do the offline tools have all the monsters?
    Yes, and I also meant "if you are the DM".

    The offline tools I link to include Masterplan which becomes your monster builder. I also include ALL of the published stat blocks. :)
    Cheers
    Scrivener of Doom

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