The Last Jedi 2: The Next Last Jedi

[Blackhawk748]

When last we left we were talking about Kylo Ren being bad at channeling the Dark side as well as the merits of Rey spontaneously developing powers.

Previous Thread

[Mightymosy]

Is it too late to change to "The Next Jedi"?

Seems like a better fit if you ask me

[Blackhawk748]

To continue

Man, some movies must be hard for you to watch.
For me, I almost always cringe whenever Hollywood does "hacking" or bascially anything related to DNA or genetics (save Jurassic Park, I'll say).
Medicine in TV series often seemed to be off as well, but they have gotten WAY better with this over the years.

Pretty much whenever they stab through plate armor. I have taken the Shadiversity approach, i just yell "Lightsabah!!" whenever it happens. Don't worry, its usually in my head.

[Psyren]

Reposting from last thread:

In general, I prefer the "learn and train" way, and especially in Phantom Menace and The Force Awakenes, after the original trilogy established it that way.

So do I but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Did they pick up any complex stuff within a month and mastered it?

What exactly did Rey "master?" She demonstrated her skills on some nameless mooks, and held her own against a skilled guy who had just taken a plasma shot to the chest. And if it's piloting you mean, she's been doing that way longer than a month.

[Dr.Samurai]

When last we left we were talking about Kylo Ren being bad at channeling the Dark side as well as the merits of Rey spontaneously developing powers.

Previous Thread

This is an interesting way to put it because really it sort of flips things on its head right? I mean, typically the villain has some ability to gain disproportionate power or some weapon that gives him an unfair advantage over the heroes, and the heroes have to earn their power or struggle to achieve victory over the villain.

But here, we have Kylo struggling to grasp his power. He gets beat in TFA, we're told he hasn't completed his training, Snoke mocks him for losing and tells him he'll never be as great as Vader, and Kylo again struggles to defeat Rey or Luke. He is foiled once again by the heroes and hasn't appeared to gain any power or skill since TFA.

Meanwhile, Rey just keeps getting stronger and stronger for no reason. She struggles with absolutely nothing, except maybe the idea of her parentage. Otherwise, she does whatever she wants, whenever she wants, and there is no one to really stop her.

[Jayngfet]

To continue on about Kylo Tend lightsaber: People are vastly overestimating how easy current lore makes it to just get a new crystal that WORKS. You need to get the one specific shard in all the galaxy that it's your destiny to get. If the empire or FO strip mined it, tough. You could get two or three, or just one. Or none and die in the attempt.

Yes, the crystals themselves are used extensively by the first order and empire due to that strip mining, but those crystals are mostly inert and unusable or else highly explosive and prone to mentally assaulting anyone who messes with them. Jun and Chirrut had crystals on them, but they were inert. The ones used to make imperial weapons were unstable and resulted in massive loss of life when gone out of control.

Unless Ben had the presence of mind to grab one off a dead Jedi when he left for Smoke he has no real other options but to make due. The other Knights with him clearly don't have theirs anymore so he can't just bum one of theirs. When he turned to the dark side even if he could have had a new one it would have just rejected him.

So he's stuck with an unstable one. None of the others he has around will work for him.

[Mightymosy]

Reposting from last thread:



So do I but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Neither am I, luckily

What exactly did Rey "master?" She demonstrated her skills on some nameless mooks, and held her own against a skilled guy who had just taken a plasma shot to the chest. And if it's piloting you mean, she's been doing that way longer than a month.

I just asked about the ingenious people you mentioned for example, because I didn't know they mastered any art within a month.

[Psyren]

He gets beat in TFA

Through the combined efforts of 4 main characters, while also dealing with internal conflict.

and hasn't appeared to gain any power or skill since TFA.

Except a link with our hero which he immediately uses to begin seducing her.

Meanwhile, Rey just keeps getting stronger and stronger for no reason. She struggles with absolutely nothing, except maybe the idea of her parentage. Otherwise, she does whatever she wants, whenever she wants, and there is no one to really stop her.

She does in fact get training from Luke himself, so "no reason" is incorrect. He is initially reluctant, but then he teaches her. Not to mention the books she ran off with.

As for struggle, she's had plenty. Snoke handled her like a puppy. She would never have gotten out of that throne room alive without help from Kylo. And he only did it to try seducing her again, which she successfully resists. Her focus is clear, while Kylo's is clouded with doubt, but even than keeps her from winning their tug-of-war with the lightsaber - they tie, it breaks, she escapes.

I just asked about the genious people you mentioned for example, because I didn't know they mastered any art within a month.

I know. Did Rey? How is what she did any different than what they did?

[Mightymosy]

[...]



I know. Did Rey? How is what she did any different than what they did?

My question was not about Rey. I was curious who of these people you mentioned mastered which arts within a month.

[Psyren]

My question was not about Rey. I was curious who of these people you mentioned mastered which arts within a month.

I answered your question with a question. If yours isn't relevant, say so.

[Mightymosy]

I answered your question with a question. If yours isn't relevant, say so.

Now I don't understand anything anymore

To back up:
First Sholos posted this:
"Well, you let me know how many children pick up a highly complex and technical skill in even a month after first being introduced to it and we'll have a starting point."

To which you answered:
"You can't be serious. Blaise Pascal, Amadeus Mozart, Carl Gauss, Ramanujan..."

Of which I was surprised, because I didn't know these mastered anything in that time. I watched a movie about Gauss in which he was shown as a very skilled mathematician but took time to master that art. Basically he learnt it like we do, just way better.

The last guy, Ramanujan, I confess not even knowing.

So I asked for examples, that's my intention.
Unless you used hyperbole for argument's sake, that's also fine.

I know the context was initially about Rey, but my post was just to get some examples, say, to show off at the next dinner party

[Jayngfet]

She does in fact get training from Luke himself, so "no reason" is incorrect. He is initially reluctant, but then he teaches her. Not to mention the books she ran off with.

Books she had no time to read and training equal to one meditation exercise that explicitly isn't actually Jedi related

[Mightymosy]

Books she had no time to read and training equal to one meditation exercise that explicitly isn't actually Jedi related

If I was Rey I'd be pissed
At least she didn't pay anything
Actually, maybe she stole the books as kinda revenge for the sh*tty exuse for a training she has gotten.

"The force is not about lifting rocks".

Yeah, sure.

[Jayngfet]

If I was Rey I'd be pissed
At least she didn't pay anything
Actually, maybe she stole the books as kinda revenge for the sh*tty exuse for a training she has gotten.

"The force is not about lifting rocks".

Yeah, sure.

Except the force is totally all about lifting rocks judging by that ending. All that deep spiritual stuff? Pheh.

I legitimately think Rian Johnson screwed the pooch here when he decided to pick it up immediately. If you did it even a few months later and decided Rey was chasing Luke around over cliffs and through obstacles, you could have at least justified that by saying that was somehow the training. But two days does not justify it. Luke had less time with Ben, but that was active training and he still needed multiple years of other training before he could lose to Vader.

[Blackhawk748]

If I was Rey I'd be pissed
At least she didn't pay anything
Actually, maybe she stole the books as kinda revenge for the sh*tty exuse for a training she has gotten.

"The force is not about lifting rocks".

Yeah, sure.

To compound Luke's rather terrible training, she was only there for like 3 days. We arnet sure how long Luke was on Dagobah, but best guesses put it at at least 7 days probably more, judging by the condition of his clothes and his various costume changes.

[GreatWyrmGold]

To compound Luke's rather terrible training, she was only there for like 3 days. We arnet sure how long Luke was on Dagobah, but best guesses put it at at least 7 days probably more, judging by the condition of his clothes and his various costume changes.

On the other hand, how long could the Millennium Falcon crew have spent traveling to Cloud City? It's unclear at best, and even a week or two isn't much better than a few days. Especially since Yoda spent much of that time trying to get Luke into the right mindset with his eccentric exercises, while Luke got right to teaching what he thought was important to teach. (He seems to have learned that much from his past.)


Also, I accidentally posted some stuff in the defunct thread!

Spoiler: Arguing About Rey's Competence

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Its possible, but its us trying to answer questions that the movie should have answered. This has been an issue with all three of the new movies. Yes i can probably provide an answer for why this is kinda weird, but the movie should be better at explaining this stuff.

There are some things for which this is the case, but "Rey is good at Force stuff" is not one of them. OMG, someone without Skywalker blood is good at the Force? Stop the presses.
The sequel trilogy's characters are defined more by their choices. Finn chose to leave the First Order, Kylo chose to join them, Rey chose to try to save them both (in different movies). Having Rey's power not come from some Chosen One foretold by prophecy emphasizes how unimportant she was before she made that choice. Rey didn't have a destiny given to her by an immaculate conception (or being Force Jesus's kid); Rey's destiny was left lying about, and she happened to be able to take it.

This is why i wanted her to get a Lightsaber Pike, at least then her staff skills would at least carry over to it. Plus its a horribly underutilized weapon for how awesome it is.

I know, right? Or at least stick the lightsaber in the end of her staff. It would match with her scavengingey background, and be a distinct and unique thing that I'm sure Disney could sell a bajillion new toys with.

I'm really not seeing the whole Rey is the most naturally talent force user onscreen bit. Anakin as a pre-teen not only could win a podrace, but he took out the command ship of a blockading fleet only days later, without having any actual fighter pilot training. Luke, as a back woods dirt farmer, took out the first deathstar single handed within hours of having left his home planet for the first time and after only shown piloting a landspeeder. Rey has survived* a lightsaber duel and lightsaber tug'o'war with Darth Emo, and lifted a pile of rocks. Doesn't seem so terribly OP compartively.

At worst, she's differently talented. (She seems to have less sense-ey talent and more telekines-ey talent.) But she's not the Force Jesus Chosen One who we remember with some level of nostalgia goggles, so we find something wrong with it.

[snip]

It's true that metaphorically cutting water bottles will only get her so far with learning how to fight. On the other hand...what did Obi-Wan and Yoda teach Luke? Some generic Force-ey exercises, some physical training, and blocking training drone blasts? At best, that's equivalent to cutting water bottles, though I'd argue that it's probably a bit lower. Yet does that stop Luke from fighting Darth Vader without getting completely destroyed?
Maybe it's the Force guiding their arm, maybe lightsaber dueling comes naturally to the Force-sensitive, maybe it's just bad writing...but it's not particularly worse writing than the original movies.

I contend that you are not actually a space wizard and do not actually know this.

I'm pretty sure Rey is by far the least experienced Jedi to use the Mind Trick. Let's see...Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan in the original trilogy, Luke (with a 50% success rate, after honing his abilities to the point that he could challenge [or at least competently struggle against] Darth Vader himself), maybe Darth Jar-Jar...I think that's it.
It's also odd that Rey doesn't ever duplicate her first real use of the Force. Pretty much everything she does in TLJ is telekinesis or some kind of Force sense. If she's just more talented at that particular application of the Force, that's fine, but why doesn't she use it more often?

Unless you have a source that states "only reflexes can be used without training" then this objection is meaningless.

Depending on how you define "training," that might be entirely accurate. Of course, that might just make it unimportant to this discussion again.

I answered your question with a question. If yours isn't relevant, say so.

By that logic, you could have said "How much wood could a woodchuck chuck?" and nullified his argument. Yellow card, please rephrase your objection so that it's logically coherent.

Spoiler: Kylo Ren's Temper

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I mean, using an unstable crystal makes the thing vent too much energy so he put the crossguards on to vent it out and makes use of it as crossguards. That's inherently "built wrong".

I strongly disagree. It's built differently, but it's an entirely valid design. (Though it still bugs me that he never uses the crossguard as a freaking guard.)

Well we know that now, but he sure didnt. Seriously, he's swinging that lightsaber like its a baseball bat or something, he is so many kinds of wide open and he's telegraphing from years ago with those swings! Yes Luke was screwing with him, but Kylo fought like a drunk not someone who just murdilated 3 clearly skilled guards

And yes, you can fight properly if the other dude isnt fighting back, generally that means you kill him, or hes just a slippery sucker. In this case it was the second one, but that doesnt excuse Kylo's absolutely atrocious form.

Nope. But it's far from the worst form I've seen in fictional fights.
It seems to be a thing that fights in fiction exaggerate the effects of emotion on one's ability to fight. From the power of friendship to insult sword fighting to righteous fury, it's just about the only way to link a character's internal struggle with their external struggle. I can't really blame Star Wars for it when hardly anyone has found a better solution.

When Darth Bane gets injured or upset, he is a force of nature in the Dark Side.
When Kylo gets injured or upset, he loses to untrained teens.
What an interesting character...

Joking aside, competence != interesting...ness. Often, it's quite the opposite. A character who never struggles to achieve what they want to do is boring; a character with a major flaw (say, a loose temper) can be interesting.

[Dienekes]

To compound Luke's rather terrible training, she was only there for like 3 days. We arnet sure how long Luke was on Dagobah, but best guesses put it at at least 7 days probably more, judging by the condition of his clothes and his various costume changes.

I believe Lucas said 3 months. But this is going off my increasingly poor memory.

[Blackhawk748]

On the other hand, how long could the Millennium Falcon crew have spent traveling to Cloud City? It's unclear at best, and even a week or two isn't much better than a few days. Especially since Yoda spent much of that time trying to get Luke into the right mindset with his eccentric exercises, while Luke got right to teaching what he thought was important to teach. (He seems to have learned that much from his past.)

The Falcon has consumables for 2 Months, and its not entirely clear how long they where on Bespin, though i wouldnt guess more than a few hours. The other part is, is that Obi Wan laid some basic groundwork and ESB is 3 years after ANH, so Luke spent some time screwing around with the Force (like the aforementioned noodle thing). Basically, Luke got like 2 weeks of real solid training and a few years of self training. Rey got... like 3 days. Seems a tad odd.

I believe Lucas said 3 months. But this is going off my increasingly poor memory.

If he did, i cant find it.

[Jayngfet]

One of the things Pablo Hidalgo has put out there is that Dagobah is a lot like Mortis in that the force makes things kind of screwy, including the passage of time and weather events literally happened in sequence. So it's possible Luke perceived himself as having weeks or months of training when it was "really" only a few days.

The obvious solution is that Ach-To is obviously also strong in the force and you can have more time ...but we see that unlike Luke's vague visions from Vader, Rey has to have a 1:1 passage of time with the outside to talk to Kylo Ren verbally in such a way. Likewise she explicitly spends less than two days there since we see her sleeping and getting up, and Poe explicitly says that the whole deep space chase takes less than eighteen hours. Meaning that she doesn't have any of that weird screwy time stuff to fall back on since it more or less lines up. She doesn't even have time beyond that eighteen hours since she lands on the capital ship before it's up and she doesn't actually do much talking to Luke while Poe and Leia escape.

So her vague twenty minutes including the mirror is literally all she got. Unlike Luke on the Falcon or Dagobah it's not left vague enough weather she could have had a little longer.

[Dr.Samurai]

Through the combined efforts of 4 main characters, while also dealing with internal conflict.

No, no, and no. Seriously just... everyone go YouTube this fight scene again, please. Rey gives ground to Kylo the *entire time* they are fighting. He is nimble even, chasing her through the small path between the bluffs on either side and through the trees. He *never once* indicates he is in pain, slow, or emotionally distraught. He drives her, with purpose, all the way to the cliff forming behind them and she can do *nothing* to avoid her very obvious fate in the next few moments.

Kylo even tells her "You need a teacher." Why does he say this? Because she sucks. She clearly has potential, but he beats her very easily. So he's offering to train her. Then he says "I can show you the ways of The Force" and she closes her eyes and then goes SSJ. THEN she defeats him easily.

There is no indication that *anything* that happened prior to that scene had any impact on the outcome of the battle after Rey "awakens". There is *every* indication that the reason she beat him is strictly because she is better/stronger than he is once she connected to the Force.

Except a link with our hero which he immediately uses to begin seducing her.

A link that Snoke takes credit for. Admittedly, they use it once more after Snoke dies so... great. I'm sure the mindlink power will come to great use in defeating his enemies.

She does in fact get training from Luke himself, so "no reason" is incorrect. He is initially reluctant, but then he teaches her. Not to mention the books she ran off with.

She doesn't get anything from Luke. Him telling her to close her eyes and feel the force is nice, but she's already done it. She was using telekinesis in TFA. She's already wielding the Force with proficiency, enough to mind trick people, enough to intrude on Kylo's thoughts, enough to overpower him in a TK duel for the lightsaber. It's nice that the pebbles rose, but in what way is this "training"? You honestly think that she lifted those boulders because she sat down with Luke for thirty seconds?

As for struggle, she's had plenty.

Plenty huh? Anyone want to help Psyren list some examples?

Snoke handled her like a puppy.

Yes, and he died not a minute later for it. She literally visited his base of power and gave Kylo the support he needed to kill Snoke.

She would never have gotten out of that throne room alive without help from Kylo. And he only did it to try seducing her again, which she successfully resists.

Rey has no reason to be there in the first place. Why is she willing to die for Kylo?? Because she's the protagonist I guess. Being hurt by Snoke is not a struggle because it's not necessary for her to achieve what she wants. Kylo didn't kill Snoke because he was hurting Rey. It was just a pointless display a power. This is not the same as Luke appealing to the remaining goodness in his father, and then calling out for him to help when he's being blasted by Sith lightning.

This is Rey, who has no cause established so far (she's not a resistance fighter and she's not a jedi) deciding to go to the First Order stronghold to "save" Kylo, and getting blasted right before Kylo kills Snoke, and according to several people in the previous thread he was already going to do that with or without Rey.

Luke has to train. Luke has his perspectives challenged and changed. Rey already knows the right way of things. She's the one telling Luke what his mistake was. She "already knows everything the books would have to tell her".

Her focus is clear,

Interesting. I don't think it is. Well, I mean, she's generic good person. But... what will she be doing in Episode 9? Does anyone see her joining the fight against the First Order? I don't know, I have no idea what she'll be doing in the next movie because she's mostly been led along in the first two.

I answered your question with a question. If yours isn't relevant, say so.

Thanks for bringing the useless posturing from the previous thread into this one post haste .

[Dr.Samurai]

Joking aside, competence != interesting...ness. Often, it's quite the opposite. A character who never struggles to achieve what they want to do is boring; a character with a major flaw (say, a loose temper) can be interesting.

Can be interesting. But isn't, necessarily.

I'm not saying Kylo should never struggle. In fact that's my complaint about Rey.

I'm saying that not only is he conflicted about everything he does, and we don't have a clear picture of what it is he even wants, so we don't know exactly what motivates him or why, but also he sucks at being a combatant.

Darth Bane struggles in the novels. He's the protagonist of the books, so it's all about him searching for artifacts and lost power, defeating the old Sith, defeating the Jedi, etc. He struggles greatly. But he is also a powerful combatant. The dark side is interesting because the more you harm and frustrate a dark sider, the more dangerous he or she becomes. That creates a problem for someone fighting the dark side. Qui-gon has to suppress the very natural feelings and emotions that arise in a fight for your life, so he kneels down and meditates while the energy fields are up. But Darth Maul is pacing back and forth, relishing the contest and giving in to his dark emotions that naturally lend themselves to violence. This makes him a force to be reckoned with.

Without a clear understanding of what Kylo wants and is aiming for, why he's interested in Rey, and a sense that he even knows what he wants (because he is always ever "conflicted"), I lose interest. Then in combat, you can only count on him being outmaneuvered, whether by an avatar of the Force, an explosive lightsaber, or a force projection.

For someone like me, I just want him to either die or become a real character with clear goals and the ability to try and attain those goals.

[Aeson]

It's true that metaphorically cutting water bottles will only get her so far with learning how to fight. On the other hand...what did Obi-Wan and Yoda teach Luke? Some generic Force-ey exercises, some physical training, and blocking training drone blasts? At best, that's equivalent to cutting water bottles, though I'd argue that it's probably a bit lower. Yet does that stop Luke from fighting Darth Vader without getting completely destroyed?
Maybe it's the Force guiding their arm, maybe lightsaber dueling comes naturally to the Force-sensitive, maybe it's just bad writing...but it's not particularly worse writing than the original movies.

I very much doubt that Darth Vader is meant to be going all-out against Luke in the fight on Bespin in The Empire Strikes Back. It feels a lot more like he's testing, or even toying with, Luke, and we know both from the conversation Vader had with the Emperor on his Star Destroyer and from the recruitment pitch he gives Luke during the fight that Vader's primary objective isn't actually to kill Luke.

The only time in that fight where I think Vader might not really be holding back is at the end when Luke slashes his arm and Vader responds by chopping off Luke's hand, and even then he stops before finishing Luke.

[The Aboleth]

I very much doubt that Darth Vader is meant to be going all-out against Luke in the fight on Bespin in The Empire Strikes Back. It feels a lot more like he's testing, or even toying with, Luke, and we know both from the conversation Vader had with the Emperor on his Star Destroyer and from the recruitment pitch he gives Luke during the fight that Vader's primary objective isn't actually to kill Luke.

The only time in that fight where I think Vader might not really be holding back is at the end when Luke slashes his arm and Vader responds by chopping off Luke's hand, and even then he stops before finishing Luke.

Vader is definitely toying with Luke in The Empire Strikes Back. For the first half of their fight, Vader only wields his lightsaber with one hand. Then when he knocks Luke into the cryo-freeze pit, he remarks to Luke "Perhaps you're not as powerful as the Emperor foresaw." Vader is holding back during the fight because the Emperor wants Luke alive (and also because it's clear how out-matched Luke is from the get-go).

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Mightymosy

Show

Now I don't understand anything anymore

To back up:
First Sholos posted this:
"Well, you let me know how many children pick up a highly complex and technical skill in even a month after first being introduced to it and we'll have a starting point."

To which you answered:
"You can't be serious. Blaise Pascal, Amadeus Mozart, Carl Gauss, Ramanujan..."

You requested examples of children picking up highly complex and technical skills, which I provided. Now you are fixating on the "in a month" stipulation of that, and I am asking you why. I couldn't tell you how long it took Mozart to be proficient with the piano, but he still did it at an extremely young age with comparatively little formal training. That is the salient point. Does that help?

Spoiler: Jayngfet

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Books she had no time to read and training equal to one meditation exercise that explicitly isn't actually Jedi related

He spent days training her! Did you honestly expect to see every minute of that? Do you not know how movies work?

Spoiler: Dr. Samurai

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No, no, and no. Seriously just... everyone go YouTube this fight scene again, please.

Yes, yes, and yes. Han got in his head on the bridge, which (contrary to his belief) a stabbing did not fully resolve. Chewie shot him with a gun that does this, giving him a visibly limiting injury (judging by all the chest pounding he does from that moment onward.) Then Finn fought him and FINALLY, after all that, Rey did. Honestly, we settled this back at the last *****fest over TFA, I genuinely cannot believe this is coming up again.

A link that Snoke takes credit for.

I'm sure Snoke could take credit for several of his abilities having trained him, so what's one more?

She doesn't get anything from Luke.

Other than force techniques, lightsaber techniques, and literal Jedi manuals?

Yes, and he died not a minute later for it.

Pretty sure Kylo did that.

Thanks for bringing the useless posturing from the previous thread into this one post haste .

Referencing facts does indeed seem like a waste of my time.

[Blackhawk748]

Spoiler: Jayngfet

Show

He spent days training her! Did you honestly expect to see every minute of that? Do you not know how movies work?

Yes, as in 2 days. Because all of these things are happening concurrently and we havent had anyone show or tell us anything different unlike with Luke and Dagobah. Plus the fact that she talks with Kylo when he's aboard the Supremacy during the chase gives us even more evidence for how short a time she spends there.

[Psyren]

Yes, as in 2 days. Because all of these things are happening concurrently and we havent had anyone show or tell us anything different unlike with Luke and Dagobah. Plus the fact that she talks with Kylo when he's aboard the Supremacy during the chase gives us even more evidence for how short a time she spends there.

As you yourself stated in the last thread, Luke is the best Jedi of all time ("full stop"). So yeah, I can indeed believe he trained her quickly, and some of it took place offscreen. The rest of her growth she either has to do on her own (like Luke did), or find a new teacher somewhere to resume - which may even be Ghost Luke.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yes, yes, and yes. Han got in his head on the bridge, which (contrary to his belief) a stabbing did not fully resolve. Chewie shot him with a gun that does this, giving him a visibly limiting injury (judging by all the chest pounding he does from that moment onward.) Then Finn fought him and FINALLY, after all that, Rey did. Honestly, we settled this back at the last *****fest over TFA, I genuinely cannot believe this is coming up again.

It's ironic that you ask Janygfet if he knows how movies work when you're clearly missing the take away from that fight scene. I already addressed this. Kylo does not lose because Han got in his head. Kylo does not lose because Chewie shot him. Kylo does not lose because Finn fought him.

Kylo loses because Rey taps into the Force. It is obvious from the way the scene is shot.

Despite everything that you bring up, Kylo still defeats her and drives her to the literal and metaphorical edge, at which point she calls on the Force and defeats him.

I'm glad you have all found a way to explain what was, at the time, an odd turn of events in the movie, but it is very clear what the director intended for us to see; Rey gaining power in the Force to overwhelm and defeat Kylo Ren, who would have otherwise defeated her.

I'm sure Snoke could take credit for several of his abilities having trained him, so what's one more?

I honestly can't tell from your responses if you're being serious or not. Kylo is confused when they are first linked, so clearly he's not the one doing it. He quickly ascertains it isn't Rey, because the effort would kill her. Then Snoke says he did it.

Other than force techniques, lightsaber techniques, and literal Jedi manuals?

What are you talking about? Seriously? What force technique (let alone techniques) did Luke teach Rey? When did he instruct her on how to use a lightsaber, or spar with her? When did she read the manuals while Luke wasn't looking (since he didn't know she had them)?

Pretty sure Kylo did that.

Correct. Heroes typically struggle or overcome obstacles to achieve their goals. Rey... doesn't have goals outside of "find Luke" and "redeem Kylo". She finds Luke with no fuss. Snoke being killed is Kylo's arc, not Rey's.

[Jayngfet]

I would like to reiterate that Luke did not spend "days" training Rey. They were together for under eighteen hours. This is what Poe gives as the timeframe for most of the film. Minus about eight hours of that just for Rey sleeping, then subtract the hours it takes Luke to go through his routine, then subtract all the time Luke refuses to help her and the time it takes Rey to get from point A to point B. Once you line all of that up with the sequence of events portrayed in the film itself and you see that Rey and Luke had, at best, a couple of hours to actually do anything. This being the couple of hours in which Rey went to the dark side in meditation, he abandoned her again, and she went into the weird dark side hole, and the practice session where she broke the rock. At best you can say there was one more thing that happened in the deleted scenes but that literally has nothing to do with Rey learning anything practical and it's mostly just Luke moping around some more and some vague illusion stuff.

This is the first Star Wars film where we have an actual, hard nailed down, no BS time frame where everything happens nailed down within a few hours. Poe says eighteen hours. Then Finn later says exactly how much the clock has run down by. Then we hear the math on how much faster the return trip is, against the conventional norms given for other ships. Then we see the event Poe was counting down to happen later.

Rey didn't have multiple days to train. Rey didn't even have one day to train. She had a few hours and about five more minutes with a lightsaber. You can rewatch the movie and take notes and plot out exactly how the day goes yourself.

[Psyren]

Kylo loses because Rey taps into the Force. It is obvious from the way the scene is shot.

The other stuff are still factors. The director could just as easily have had Kylo not get shot, right? But he did.

What are you talking about? Seriously? What force technique (let alone techniques) did Luke teach Rey?

No clue. I'm sure we'll find out! Won't it be fun?

Correct. Heroes typically struggle or overcome obstacles to achieve their goals. Rey... doesn't have goals outside of "find Luke" and "redeem Kylo". She finds Luke with no fuss. Snoke being killed is Kylo's arc, not Rey's.

Her goal is to stop literal nazis however she can. I'm not sure why you think she, or anyone, needs more motivation than that.

[Jayngfet]

Her goal is to stop literal nazis however she can. I'm not sure why you think she, or anyone, needs more motivation than that.

Unless you see a literal Swastika I'm pretty sure you're being hyperbolic.