The Last Jedi 2: The Next Last Jedi

[Psyren]

In other words, for a faction that has invoked a few scenes with Nazi-like imagery and otherwise don't actually have much else to do with Nazis as oppose to any other oppressive Imperial power, there's just not a lot of Nazi comparison to be making.

It's shorthand, and I plan to stick with it.

This man has the right of it on the matter.

So he IS a space wizard? (Or I guess space cleric, since the source of their power has agency of its own.) Man, those are fencing classes I'd sign up for in a second.

[Metahuman1]

How many black belts do you have Psyren?


How many weapons have you been given formal instruction in the use of, and practiced under the supervision of qualified teachers for those weapons?


Don't give me the space wizard thing. It's canonically established that superior martial ability and numbers can still allow none force users to over take Jedi Masters. Doesn't happen often but it can happen.

Rey's opponents had armor that works, which, I promise you, is a massive advantage which is why it was historically developed in the first place.

Rey's opponents out numbered her 4 or 5 to 1, trust me, that's a near insurmountable advantage.

Rey's opponents are extensively trained. She had, despite your protests, at best, 2 days of training. And that's frankly being charitable to the point of active self harm.

Rey did not use mind tricks or telekinesis or any observable space wizard powers. At best, she had passive buffs that were helping, but as mentioned, canonically, can be over come even when there being used by Masters, and she's not a master, as mentioned, cause she's had at best 2 days worth of training.



Rey SURVIVING that fight was less than likely. Rey WINNING that fight as depicted is functionally implausible.

Now, if she'd grabbed and crushed there weapons with Force telekinesis and then started throwing them around to keep them off balance with afor mentioned force telekinesis while she light sabered one disarmed opponent at a time, that would be different, I'd have actually bought that.


But that's not what's on screen. Not even close.

[Psyren]

How many black belts do you have Psyren?

Er, I'm not the one crying out for realism in my space wizard prodigy's learning speed from another space wizard prodigy, and citing my muggle fencing lessons as justification for that.

Rey's opponents out numbered her 4 or 5 to 1, trust me, that's a near insurmountable advantage.

Rey's opponents are extensively trained.

Yeah we've never seen four-on-one trained opponents in Star Wars before.

Rey did not use mind tricks or telekinesis or any observable space wizard powers. At best, she had passive buffs that were helping, but as mentioned, canonically, can be over come even when there being used by Masters, and she's not a master, as mentioned, cause she's had at best 2 days worth of training.

"Can be" and "is" are two different things.

[Metahuman1]

No, your just the one insisting that major glaring plot problems and bad writing decisions be completely ignored and forgiven out of hand because space wizards exist in the setting at all. Even when the problems center around how frankly crap the characters, by in universe standards, are and should be at being space wizards!

Also, your calling his credentials and mine into question as a means of trying to discredit not just the argument, but any and every argument the 2 people, myself being one of them, make that you don't like or disagree with on the grounds of your discrediting it. I want to know PRECISELY how much credentials you have in the cited fields to do that.



I'll look at the clip later, when I'm not at work and can access Youtube. But I'd be willing to wager whomever is winning that 4 on 1 fight canonically has a HELL of a lot more training than Rey, and at least a 50/50 chance that the people with numbers advantage do not have a significant training advantage on there side as well, like in the Rey fight, and a significant advantage in the form of armor that actually protects them, as the 4-5 guards had in the Rey Fight.



Yes. And when your outnumbered 4-5 to one against properly armored opponents whom are significantly more and better trained for melee combat than you, and people canonically who are vastly better trained than you have a legitimate chance of loosing a fight in situations like that, then that's a point were "Can Be" is really suppose to be and should more often than not be "Is", unless you have something none conventional up your sleeve to give you an edge.

A blatantly clearly displayed propensity for favoring Telekinetic attacks they don't have a defense against for example.

[The New Bruceski]

Rey is a movie protagonist. If you want realism, don't watch blockbuster space opera.

[Lethologica]

I think its best for people be accurate when referring to villains based on Nazis.

Also, while destroying entire star systems and fielding a galaxy-contending army composed entirely of kidnapped children puts them numerically in the "worse then Nazis" slot, the sheer depth and graphic nature of some of the Nazis atrocities will never enter the Star Wars universe as long as Disney holds the property.

In other words, for a faction that has invoked a few scenes with Nazi-like imagery and otherwise don't actually have much else to do with Nazis as oppose to any other oppressive Imperial power, there's just not a lot of Nazi comparison to be making.

As another notable 20th-century figure was fond of saying, quantity begets quality. (The better-known phrasing "quantity has a quality all its own" is a '70s embellishment.)

Lucas and Disney both go way out of their way to identify the Empire and the First Order with Nazis. It's actually a lot more fun and informative to read about that than to get worked up over whether or not it's okay to call them 'literal' Nazis in a colloquial forum, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

[Metahuman1]

I'd settle for following the rules of her own universe that was established LONG before she was a glimmer in the eye of anyone who worked on the script for Episode 7.



Again, the even less realistic "I Beat them by crushing there weapons and choking them out/knocking them out by throwing them head long into the wall with telekinesis cause Space Wizard.", I'd have totally gotten behind. Hell, I'd even have considered it clever.


What we got vastly overstrains suspension of disbelief for me, and frankly, left me quite disappointed.




Also as for her parents being nobody's. Maybe.

Or maybe the Darkside user telling her that was lying too her to try and get her to do what he wanted her to do. Lying kind of clumsily but he's not the most competent darkside user we've ever seen now is he? We don't know, all we have is his word to go on, we know he's a tad unstable. Further, we know he's a darkside user and they are VERY prone to lying to get what they want in a lot of cases, and even if that's not his preferred tactic, it would still have been mentioned at some point by someone as being a thing that a darkside user can do. A tool in there box.

[Lethologica]

Also as for her parents being nobody's. Maybe.

Or maybe the Darkside user telling her that was lying too her to try and get her to do what he wanted her to do. Lying kind of clumsily but he's not the most competent darkside user we've ever seen now is he? We don't know, all we have is his word to go on, we know he's a tad unstable. Further, we know he's a darkside user and they are VERY prone to lying to get what they want in a lot of cases, and even if that's not his preferred tactic, it would still have been mentioned at some point by someone as being a thing that a darkside user can do. A tool in there box.

Rey says it first. If Kylo tricked her into believing that, it's a more sophisticated manipulation than what you suggest.

[Metahuman1]

Does she? I, remember saying something about that being a concern of hers, but nothing definitive. Come to think of it I think she says it when she's busy being neck deep in the darkside herself. And while Snoke, allegedly, was helping to manipulate her. And I'd actually buy Snoke being half way competent, despite the movie taking GREAT pains to make him seem everything but.

[Forum Explorer]

You know, I've been reading the whole debate about Rey's training, and I think we're missing a big point from the original trilogy:

"Do. Or do not. There is no try."

All Rey has done in the movies are things that we know she can already do, such as fighting, and things she has seen another Force user already do. It isn't difficult to assume that she's been fighting intuitively with the Force all her life, and from the demonstration in TLJ she seems to wield the lightsaber with the same style she wields the staff. If anything, she's just not used to its size yet, hence cutting the rock in half where the heavier staff was checked. As for suddenly tossing boulders when earlier she was just moving pebbles, Yoda's whole point with the X-wing in ESB was that size doesn't matter to Force telekinesis. Its a matter of confidence, the one thing Rey doesn't seem to lack. She manages to influence a stormtrooper because Kylo already smashed his way into her head. And when we look at her fights, its a matter of who has more confidence:

Kylo vs Rey: Kylo is torn up by doubt, Ren is out for blood. Determination beats doubt.
Snoke vs Rey: Snoke is so confident in himself, they had to build a 60km wide ship to house his ego. Rey loses like a toddler in a heavyweight boxing match.
Kylo vs Rey - Revenge of the Wannabe Sith: Kylo's pretty much chucked his doubts aside. Rey's not buying his sales pitch. Ends in a tie.

Since she's only doing what everyone else is already doing with the Force, it never occurs to her that she can't do it, too. Heck, reading those books might just be the worst possible thing for her...

I'm actually thinking along the same lines. I mean what was most of Luke's training in the original trilogy? Jumping around a swamp, and getting shot by a robot while Obi-Wan preached at him. I think using the Force is more about state of mind and belief then any actual technique. Luke needed training to get him in the state of mind, because he didn't actually believe in the Force. He needed justification to himself, when all he needed to do was let go.

Rey on the other hand, grew up on stories of the Force and the Rebellion. She already believes in it, she doesn't have the technical knowledge to bog her down. She thinks the Force can do almost anything, so she never has any doubts about moving a couple dozen boulders around. To her, it's expected and exactly the same as moving some pebbles.

It also makes you wonder what exactly a Force Sensitive person is. Maybe they are just people who can see the Force, so it's easy for them to believe in. While a non-Force Sensitive person can technically use the Force, but they are effectively blind to it, so it's really hard. Which makes the blind monk a 'blind' force user.

Even if, EVEN IF, I give Ray that she's a profound prodigy with weapons combat AND Force use and that her foes didn't have the latter, beating that many guards, whom are wearing armor that we are shown on screen in that same fight is capable of stopping attacks from light sabers and who have a considerable number advantage, is frankly ridiculous.

Why do people think these guards are well trained? I mean, the First Order is riddled with incompetence, and deliberately so. Hux is an arrogant idiot, Ren is badly trained with a temper problem, they prioritize the stationary base instead of the escaping transports, Snoke goes around in a freaking bathrobe for petes sake. And it does seem deliberate, both In-universe and out of universe. In universe, Snoke seems to cultivate his subordinate's flaws, encouraging them at being ****, and promoting **** people to high positions. Maybe to prevent someone who recently got past some flaws from cutting him in half with a lightsaber.

So yeah, faceless dudes in armor? Who have really impractical weaponry, really impractical armor (can they even see out of those helmets?) and not one of them notices Ren moving Rey's lightsaber to kill Snoke? (I guess that answers my question actually) They don't exactly scream, competent warrior to me. They seem more ceremonial or more realistically more for the intimidation factor then anything.

Snoke in general seems more like a cult leader then an actual administrator or commander. He can read minds, and is strong in the Dark Side, but that's it. He's good at manipulating people, and his powers certainly help, but he doesn't actually know how to effectively lead. And in fact, he's much more concerned with being the Supreme Leader, so he deliberately puts incompetent idiots like Hux in charge to prevent rebellions.

And it shows throughout the First Order. Their plans always seem to boil down to 'hit them with a lot of brute force.'

Out of Universe, it might because we'll see Ren change the First Order. They might go from Stormtroopers, to an entirely new uniform. Tie Fighters to actual combat fighters that aren't death traps. Ships that aren't made of paper mache. It'll fit with Ren's whole 'burn down the past' thing.

My other prediction is that the next movie will have Hux betray Ren, because no one actually respects Ren all that much. He's trying to assume control through sheer power, but it takes more then that to be a leader. Either or really.

[Metahuman1]

Why do people think these guards are well trained?

My other prediction is that the next movie will have Hux betray Ren, because no one actually respects Ren all that much. He's trying to assume control through sheer power, but it takes more then that to be a leader. Either or really.

Because the one place Sith traditionally do not skimp is there personal protection. Those were Snoke's personal body guard, people who needed to be able to overwhelm and kill Ren if Ren ever crossed Snoke and got the drop on him, and they nearly succeeded with less then full numbers focused on him. Rey had to bail him out at the end of that fight against the last one, cause she mopped hers up before he got to it.

They had actual tactics that work well against sword users, giving them a reach advantage.

They had armor that could actually matter Vs. A lightsaber, and assuming it's similar to what Phasma was wearing when fighting Finn, could tank blaster fire. (And trust me, if the other guy can convincingly and consistently ignore your ranged weapons, that distance confers very little advantage. Shield's and different compositions of mail armor were popular against arrows for anyone who could get them for a reason. It can even give you the advantage if you have melee weaponry and more training there than your opponent does in melee, and your opponent doesn't have armor of there own, or has much lighter armor.) We don't see that much in Star Wars. Armor mattering is a big and rare deal and makes them observably harder to take out in that same fight than unarmored opponents we've seen previously.






I'll be more surprised if that's not a plot point. We saw him going for his side arm to finish Ren off before Ren woke up and be decided not to risk it against a guy who can still, even if disarmed, have a chance of stopping the attack with telekinesis and killing him with the same. The disdain he showed him consistently, particularly after that point, was rather plain to see. Heck, I almost think it would be more interesting if he pulled it off and killed Ren, and was the bad guy for the last movie. Would certainly be something new to the movies anyway.

[Mechalich]

Why do people think these guards are well trained? I mean, the First Order is riddled with incompetence, and deliberately so. Hux is an arrogant idiot, Ren is badly trained with a temper problem, they prioritize the stationary base instead of the escaping transports, Snoke goes around in a freaking bathrobe for petes sake. And it does seem deliberate, both In-universe and out of universe. In universe, Snoke seems to cultivate his subordinate's flaws, encouraging them at being ****, and promoting **** people to high positions. Maybe to prevent someone who recently got past some flaws from cutting him in half with a lightsaber.

Why do people think the guards are well trained? Because they must be. Star Wars is an epic. The villains in an epic demand a measure of competency, otherwise there's nothing heroic for the heroes to do. Winning because your enemy is a bunch of bumbling idiots who beat themselves does not melodrama make. That's why history is full of WWII epics of defeating the Germans and the Japanese but no one writes much about bashing the Italians around in the same war.

The fact that the First Order seems so relentlessly pathetic in TLJ - they were at least moderately competent in TFA - is a huge problem with the film. Rudimentary competence or tactical awareness by Hux (or even his subordinates) at various points in TLJ results in a TPK of the entire resistance:

- if they target the Raddus instead of the base and use TIEs to defend the dreadnaught properly, the Raddus is blown up and everyone dies.
- if they send any ships into hyperspace to jump ahead of the fleeing rebels, everyone dies
- if they deploy a fighter screen to monitor the Raddus and thereby detect the launching transports everyone dies (she can't hyperspace ram a few TIE squadrons)
- if the fleet is deployed in echelon instead of in column the hyperspace ramming hits only the supremacy and the escorts blast the transports to dust, everyone dies
- if TIEs are deployed to blockade Crait and prevent the Falcon from landing everyone dies
- if the Imperial ground forces form a perimeter encircling the old Rebel base everyone dies
- if the TIEs don't break off in unison to pursue the Falcon and instead maintain air cover everyone dies

The First Order sucks, and since an epic melodrama is generally only as good as its villains, the ST sucks by extension.

[Forum Explorer]

Because the one place Sith traditionally do not skimp is there personal protection. Those were Snoke's personal body guard, people who needed to be able to overwhelm and kill Ren if Ren ever crossed Snoke and got the drop on him, and they nearly succeeded with less then full numbers focused on him. Rey had to bail him out at the end of that fight against the last one, cause she mopped hers up before he got to it.

They had actual tactics that work well against sword users, giving them a reach advantage.

They had armor that could actually matter Vs. A lightsaber, and assuming it's similar to what Phasma was wearing when fighting Finn, could tank blaster fire. (And trust me, if the other guy can convincingly and consistently ignore your ranged weapons, that distance confers very little advantage. Shield's and different compositions of mail armor were popular against arrows for anyone who could get them for a reason. It can even give you the advantage if you have melee weaponry and more training there than your opponent does in melee, and your opponent doesn't have armor of there own, or has much lighter armor.) We don't see that much in Star Wars. Armor mattering is a big and rare deal and makes them observably harder to take out in that same fight than unarmored opponents we've seen previously.






I'll be more surprised if that's not a plot point. We saw him going for his side arm to finish Ren off before Ren woke up and be decided not to risk it against a guy who can still, even if disarmed, have a chance of stopping the attack with telekinesis and killing him with the same. The disdain he showed him consistently, particularly after that point, was rather plain to see. Heck, I almost think it would be more interesting if he pulled it off and killed Ren, and was the bad guy for the last movie. Would certainly be something new to the movies anyway.

Snoke was really a proper Sith though, was he? I mean, for starters he's not calling himself Darth Snoke. He doesn't have a Lightsaber. I don't think he even calls himself a Sith at any point.

And they did so well at stopping Ren didn't they? But sure, they are well equipped, even if it's weird unnecessarily complex weapons. I don't actually remember them using tactics though. Nor being particularly skilled in the fights.



It'd certainly be interesting to have old Empire guys defecting the the Resistance because of the new leadership. And I did mean Empire, not First Order.

[Metahuman1]

Snoke was really a proper Sith though, was he? I mean, for starters he's not calling himself Darth Snoke. He doesn't have a Lightsaber. I don't think he even calls himself a Sith at any point.

And they did so well at stopping Ren didn't they? But sure, they are well equipped, even if it's weird unnecessarily complex weapons. I don't actually remember them using tactics though. Nor being particularly skilled in the fights.



It'd certainly be interesting to have old Empire guys defecting the the Resistance because of the new leadership. And I did mean Empire, not First Order.

Which falls in line with my observation that I'm starting to get the impression with these movies that someone working on them has active contempt for the franchise.

Not taking Rey out, and her not being forced to pull something off to justify that other than "And they fight and they fight and they fight and they fight.......", is a bone of contention, yes.

As for weird, there adapting other kinds of weapons you'd see in martial arts movies to be suitable to a space opera. Pole Arms. Chain weapons, ext. We saw two of them immediately get on Ren and nearly succeed at completely locking him down were he couldn't use his weapon at all. We saw one with a chain like weapon using his reach, and then manage to get Rey's weapon in a bind that she was shown having no inkling of an idea on how to get free of. She had to be saved by Ren. Whom himself almost got ganked in a grapple that he lost badly in in terms of technique. The only thing holding him was desperation and raw muscle, and that was loosing ground before Rey bailed him out.

Tactics. Techniques. Skill. As I said, frankly, what we saw, Ren and Rey should have lost that fight.




That would be interesting, but I was referring to a situation were the bad guys have overall military dominance, but no force users, and the good guys while clearly inferior in there numbers and ships and what not have 1 Force User. We haven't seen that in the movies that I recall.

I know they made Thrawn canon again in Rebels, did they kill him off there? Maybe bring him in if they didn't. That would be interesting. Hux get's Ren killed, and at the end Thrawn let's Hux fail and die and has positioned himself to take over what's left of The First Order for the next trilogy.



Or hell, Hux get's Ren killed, and Hux, we find out, is competent, but he didn't want to come across too competent because he knew Snoke and Ren had a policy of murdering people who were good enough at there jobs to be though of as having the potential to be a threat down the road. But with both of them dead, he's off his leash, bad news for the galaxy. Again, it would be a hell of a twist and something we haven't seen in the movies that I recall.

[BWR]

Yeah we've never seen four-on-one trained opponents in Star Wars before.

Exactly. And the two situations are entirely comprable because it's not as if Palpatine was extensively trained from a young age in the Sith arts, including lightsaber combat, had the element of surprise and was already a ruthless, experienced killer at this point.
Oh wait....

[Lethologica]

Does she? I, remember saying something about that being a concern of hers, but nothing definitive. Come to think of it I think she says it when she's busy being neck deep in the darkside herself. And while Snoke, allegedly, was helping to manipulate her. And I'd actually buy Snoke being half way competent, despite the movie taking GREAT pains to make him seem everything but.

Rey says it five seconds before Kylo does, after Snoke is dead. And Snoke only ever directly manipulated Kylo, at least according to Snoke. He never 'helps' Kylo manipulate Rey.

How you interpret the movie is up to you, but I can't discuss the movie that you think happened.

[Metahuman1]

I'll have to check it later, but I don't recall her saying it. It's possible she did, but I don't recall her outright saying it as a certainty.

[Psyren]

No, your just the one insisting that major glaring plot problems and bad writing decisions be completely ignored and forgiven out of hand because space wizards exist in the setting at all. Even when the problems center around how frankly crap the characters, by in universe standards, are and should be at being space wizards!

You're throwing around a lot of opinions that you seem to think are facts.

Also, your calling his credentials and mine into question as a means of trying to discredit not just the argument, but any and every argument the 2 people, myself being one of them, make that you don't like or disagree with on the grounds of your discrediting it. I want to know PRECISELY how much credentials you have in the cited fields to do that.

I'm discrediting your credentials because they make no sense in this argument. You may not realize this, but you're not actually space wizards!

I'll look at the clip later, when I'm not at work and can access Youtube. But I'd be willing to wager whomever is winning that 4 on 1 fight canonically has a HELL of a lot more training than Rey, and at least a 50/50 chance that the people with numbers advantage do not have a significant training advantage on there side as well, like in the Rey fight, and a significant advantage in the form of armor that actually protects them, as the 4-5 guards had in the Rey Fight.

It's Palps, but the folks he's fighting were 4 jedi masters, so it evens out.

Yes. And when your outnumbered 4-5 to one against properly armored opponents whom are significantly more and better trained for melee combat than you, and people canonically who are vastly better trained than you have a legitimate chance of loosing a fight in situations like that, then that's a point were "Can Be" is really suppose to be and should more often than not be "Is", unless you have something none conventional up your sleeve to give you an edge.

You mean like... a talent for space magic? An advantage like that?

Exactly. And the two situations are entirely comprable because it's not as if Palpatine was extensively trained from a young age in the Sith arts, including lightsaber combat, had the element of surprise and was already a ruthless, experienced killer at this point.
Oh wait....

And it's not like he was fighting 4 jedi masters instead of 4 nameless guards... oh wait...

[Forum Explorer]

Why do people think the guards are well trained? Because they must be. Star Wars is an epic. The villains in an epic demand a measure of competency, otherwise there's nothing heroic for the heroes to do. Winning because your enemy is a bunch of bumbling idiots who beat themselves does not melodrama make. That's why history is full of WWII epics of defeating the Germans and the Japanese but no one writes much about bashing the Italians around in the same war.

The fact that the First Order seems so relentlessly pathetic in TLJ - they were at least moderately competent in TFA - is a huge problem with the film. Rudimentary competence or tactical awareness by Hux (or even his subordinates) at various points in TLJ results in a TPK of the entire resistance:

- if they target the Raddus instead of the base and use TIEs to defend the dreadnaught properly, the Raddus is blown up and everyone dies.
- if they send any ships into hyperspace to jump ahead of the fleeing rebels, everyone dies
- if they deploy a fighter screen to monitor the Raddus and thereby detect the launching transports everyone dies (she can't hyperspace ram a few TIE squadrons)
- if the fleet is deployed in echelon instead of in column the hyperspace ramming hits only the supremacy and the escorts blast the transports to dust, everyone dies
- if TIEs are deployed to blockade Crait and prevent the Falcon from landing everyone dies
- if the Imperial ground forces form a perimeter encircling the old Rebel base everyone dies
- if the TIEs don't break off in unison to pursue the Falcon and instead maintain air cover everyone dies

The First Order sucks, and since an epic melodrama is generally only as good as its villains, the ST sucks by extension.

See, that doesn't entirely hold true. It's an epic sure, but the strength is relative. The Resistance is also weaker, the main characters are less competent as well, so the First Order can afford to be weaker. But they are still extremely incompetent. But more importantly, the story is just as much about Ren rising up as a proper dark lord then it is about Rey. So we need to see Ren improve, both as a Jedi, and now as a leader. The First Order under Snoke was incompetent. But now that Ren is the main bad, it might be much scarier and less foolish.

Anyways, I disagree with your bolded points. In order:

They address that. The Fighter screen needs to stay within range of the capital ships for some reason. A reason is given, but I can't remember what it was exactly.

Encircle what? The entire landmass? It was a single hole in the ground, not a building. And the other exit was a random blocked up hole in a random canyon kilometers away from anything. The encircled the only known entrance, and the only man made entrance.

Not really? That might mean Finn and Rose dies. Maybe Poe as well. But the air support was doing nothing to the actual fortress, and honestly, they weren't needed to protect the big gun anyways. In fact, the Falcon was arguably a bigger threat to the ram laser then the falling apart Salt Speeders were. It has an actual gun for starters. If they didn't chase the Falcon it could have arguably ended up blowing up the ram.

Which falls in line with my observation that I'm starting to get the impression with these movies that someone working on them has active contempt for the franchise.

Not taking Rey out, and her not being forced to pull something off to justify that other than "And they fight and they fight and they fight and they fight.......", is a bone of contention, yes.

As for weird, there adapting other kinds of weapons you'd see in martial arts movies to be suitable to a space opera. Pole Arms. Chain weapons, ext. We saw two of them immediately get on Ren and nearly succeed at completely locking him down were he couldn't use his weapon at all. We saw one with a chain like weapon using his reach, and then manage to get Rey's weapon in a bind that she was shown having no inkling of an idea on how to get free of. She had to be saved by Ren. Whom himself almost got ganked in a grapple that he lost badly in in terms of technique. The only thing holding him was desperation and raw muscle, and that was loosing ground before Rey bailed him out.

Tactics. Techniques. Skill. As I said, frankly, what we saw, Ren and Rey should have lost that fight.




That would be interesting, but I was referring to a situation were the bad guys have overall military dominance, but no force users, and the good guys while clearly inferior in there numbers and ships and what not have 1 Force User. We haven't seen that in the movies that I recall.

I know they made Thrawn canon again in Rebels, did they kill him off there? Maybe bring him in if they didn't. That would be interesting. Hux get's Ren killed, and at the end Thrawn let's Hux fail and die and has positioned himself to take over what's left of The First Order for the next trilogy.



Or hell, Hux get's Ren killed, and Hux, we find out, is competent, but he didn't want to come across too competent because he knew Snoke and Ren had a policy of murdering people who were good enough at there jobs to be though of as having the potential to be a threat down the road. But with both of them dead, he's off his leash, bad news for the galaxy. Again, it would be a hell of a twist and something we haven't seen in the movies that I recall.

I seem to remember them doing some pretty useless stuff in that fight. Chain weapons and the ect are just really weird weapons that aren't all that good. They've existed sure, but I've never thought of them as all that useful as actual weapons. In Star Wars, it's no exception.

I prefer to think of it as 'if Rey and Ren were actually good fighters they would've cleaned up those losers like the redshirted faceless mooks they were'.


That would be interesting but I think Thrawn is going to die before Rebels ends. I have no idea if they have killed him off yet or not.


Now that would be an ***pull. Hux suddenly being competent would certainly break my suspension of disbelief. This is a man who lost a dreadnaught to a prank call of all things. It's not like he was going to accept their surrender anyways, why did he keep trying to talk to Poe? Why did he need a subordinate to tell him it was a prank call in the first place?

[Clertar]

I for one really liked the new force powers. They fall on the more mystical side of the force, less so on the more videogame side.

[Zalabim]

- if they send any ships into hyperspace to jump ahead of the fleeing rebels, everyone dies

It's a space chase with no destination. There is no 'ahead'. They'd have to send a large number of ships to various points around the Raddus to cut it off from any potential maneuvers, and I'd bet canon says Star Destroyers can't even make those kind of precise, short range hyperspace jumps.

- if TIEs are deployed to blockade Crait and prevent the Falcon from landing everyone dies

It's harder to actually blockade a planet than most people think, and it'd be done with stable ships like Star Destroyers that can hold ground and project firepower, not TIEs that have limited engagement times. I highly doubt the First Order had enough ships there to begin with to stop the Falcon from slipping through. Certainly not enough left by the time the movie actually got there.

- if the Imperial ground forces form a perimeter encircling the old Rebel base everyone dies

It's a base built under a mountain. They couldn't 'form a perimeter' through that mountainous terrain. That's the point of putting your back to a mountain. They did block off the only known entrance/exit quite well.

- if the TIEs don't break off in unison to pursue the Falcon and instead maintain air cover everyone dies

That was Kylo Ren's order, and there still would have been some survivors who didn't go out on those skimmers, like Leia. Ren is technically separate from Hux's First Order military. I think that's how Hux justifies repeating his orders, anyway.

Some people might say that she used the force to make her better at fighting, if that is so then a) tell me if, at any time before TLJ, Jedi used the force the enhance their fighting, not as far as I remember, and b) we say nothing in the movie that suggested that Rey was using the force to argument her combat capabilities. Also the same thing for the force as what I said about the fighting. How do you get so damn good in no time with no training?!? Tell me Mary S... I mean Rey.

Canonically, Jedi used the force to aid in their fighting all the time, in every movie, in every book. It's a constant. Jedi tap into the Force to fight better. Jedi have better reactions, practically seeing the near future in a fight. The Force guides them. It's supposedly how they deflect blaster bolts. So, A) Jedi do use the Force when they fight.

We've seen Rey fight with a melee weapon before. We've seen Rey fight and practice with a Lightsaber before. We've seen Rey turn around a fight at the literal edge of defeat, apparently from opening herself up to the Force. So, B) Rey is a proficient melee combatant that has used the Force to help her fight.

So it's both A and B, and I propose C) You are not qualified to talk about this, and D) You are not a close parallel to a Jedi.

[Dr.Samurai]

{scrubbed}

[GloatingSwine]

{scrubbed}

You've missed the point.

The point is that many people are arguing that it is bad that we are not showing Rey being trained because they have a preconception about what level of training a Jedi "should" have.

And since none of those people are Jedi they are all wrong.

[Dr.Samurai]

You've missed the point.

The conversation started with me, so I haven't missed the point. Psyren is insisting that she was in fact trained to the degree that she has learned new force techniques, was trained with a lightsaber, there is an actual training montage in the movie, etc.

He points to one scene where we see her swinging a sword around like a kid playing in their backyard, and people rightfully say "that's not training" and he replies with "you're not a jedi, how would you know?".

Sort of makes you wonder how Psyren can in fact say it is training unless he himself is a jedi, right?

We have to go by what the movie tells us, and that's very clearly that Rey didn't receive training from Luke outside of "the Force is balance".

The point is that many people are arguing that it is bad that we are not showing Rey being trained because they have a preconception about what level of training a Jedi "should" have.

And since none of those people are Jedi they are all wrong.

Firstly, this is not true, since the movies all demonstrate that training is necessary, and there is a substantial amount of lore outside of the movies that treat "the Force" as something you must practice to master. In other words, the preconception is not baseless.

Secondly, Rey is already utilizing the Force better than trained users in TFA, so, once again, the preconception that she doesn't require training to be adept in the Force is not baseless. We already know that training is not required to justify her ability.

Finally, and most importantly, the movie doesn't show her being trained and learning new techniques. Psyren is saying "it happens off screen" when nothing indicates that it does, and then saying "Jedi can learn all types of stuff in mere moments" and defends that position with "you don't know it to not be true".

His position does not require serious consideration.

[Blackhawk748]

You've missed the point.

The point is that many people are arguing that it is bad that we are not showing Rey being trained because they have a preconception about what level of training a Jedi "should" have.

And since none of those people are Jedi they are all wrong.

I'm not a Marine but i know how much training it takes to become one. Just cuz im not a Jedi doesnt mean that i dont have some clue as to how much training it takes, and the answer is "more than 2 days"

[GloatingSwine]

Firstly, this is not true, since the movies all demonstrate that training is necessary, and there is a substantial amount of lore outside of the movies that treat "the Force" as something you must practice to master. In other words, the preconception is not baseless.

Explicitly not.

Predominantly we see Luke do something with the Force he is doing something we have not seen him trained to do.

In fact, the only explicit training we see him get is after he has done the thing the training is for without the training (Yoda teaches him to focus and lift rocks after he has already used the Force to grab his Lightsabre).

We also see Anakin doing things explicitly impossible for humans.

So no, the movies do not in fact demonstrate that training is necessary. They regularly demonstrate the opposite.

[Dr.Samurai]

ST Apologists: It's so amazing that Rey is not a Skywalker! I love it so much. So different. So amaze.

Critics: Rey seems inexplicably exceptional...

ST Apologists: But the Skywalkers!!!!

There is an entire network and infrastructure devoted to training Jedi, and we see this in the movies.

[Jayngfet]

I'm not a Marine but i know how much training it takes to become one. Just cuz im not a Jedi doesnt mean that i dont have some clue as to how much training it takes, and the answer is "more than 2 days"

Keeping in mind Luke was like four years into his attempts when he faced Vader for the last time, and Yoda still called his training incomplete. People can claim Anakin was a prodigy but he didn't do anything explicit with the force and his fighter was most on automatic. That kid who beat the clone troopers still had like half a decade of temple training including exersizes analogus to what we see Luke doing that Rey never did.

The thing is the story suggests a bunch of stuff about Rey and the Jedi but it never actually delivers the information. It decides about halfway through this movie suddenly she's nobody and all those visions don't matter and it never follows through on why they were even mentioned because they never do much for the story. They can't even be used to justify her skills because they don't encompass any of the things she actually DOES.

[GloatingSwine]

There is an entire network and infrastructure devoted to training Jedi, and we see this in the movies.

Yes, but you do not have a copy of their course curriculum to know how much a Jedi should be expected to be capable of at any given point in their progress.

100% of your arguments about what a Jedi should or should not be able to do with or without training are wrong because you have literally no way to determine what should be.

[Jayngfet]

Yes, but you do not have a copy of their course curriculum to know how much a Jedi should be expected to be capable of at any given point in their progress.

100% of your arguments about what a Jedi should or should not be able to do with or without training are wrong because you have literally no way to determine what should be.

We do in fact have extensive views on where a Jedi a by a rough age. We see Jedi at varying ages and steps in their career. We also have large bodies of information detailing their structure and how they work. The fact that we lack a day to day lesson plan isn't really relevant.