The Last Jedi 2: The Next Last Jedi

[Devonix]

I am in no way saying that the Jedi are not a force for good. That they shouldn't help people. That their presence is not a Net positive for the Galaxy. I'm simply saying that they think they're the only ones who can save it. And yes, they think because of Executive meddling perhaps. That any organization other than the Jedi, are simply lesser.

That's the hubris I'm talking about.
Not them being evil, not them being unimportant.
Simply that they are one part of a greater universe.

[Blackhawk748]

I am in no way saying that the Jedi are not a force for good. That they shouldn't help people. That their presence is not a Net positive for the Galaxy. I'm simply saying that they think they're the only ones who can save it. And yes, they think because of Executive meddling perhaps. That any organization other than the Jedi, are simply lesser.

That's the hubris I'm talking about.
Not them being evil, not them being unimportant.
Simply that they are one part of a greater universe.

Because from a statistical, pragmatic, and functional standpoint they are lesser. Probably not morally, but in every actionable way, they certainly are. Of all the groups we see (and there arent a lot) they all seem restricted to one system.

[Jayngfet]

That any organization other than the Jedi, are simply lesser.

That's the hubris I'm talking about.
Not them being evil, not them being unimportant.
Simply that they are one part of a greater universe.

Find me one of them that could have slain Vader and the Emperor and actually end the civil war.

This is the thing people don't seem to understand. The galaxy had twenty years to come up with an alternative, and many lesser groups that were not immediately hunted but could see the writing on the wall. The jedi splinter groups either retreated into themselves or else served the sith(or attempted to). The Nightsisters, in every incarnation, were more focused on their own survival and the gaining of power whenever they were aware of the situation. This is essentially repeated again and again as those groups either continued on as normal, retreated to their homeworlds and hid, or else served the emperor. A few RPG books will show some of them like the Zesion-Sha or Wardens of the Sky fighting imperial soldiers, but it is made clear that they first and foremost hide and have no real interest in actively fighting. They fundamentally fall into the same trap as the Jedi.

Yoda claims that a jedi must be passive and at peace. His solution, and as it's his order it's effectively his solution, is to divest the jedi of any real challenge unless pressed into it. He attempts to teach Luke the same thing, and Luke proves him wrong. This is what makes Luke the jedi he is known by the audience to be.

This is why The Last Jedi is an awful, awful movie. Luke not only has a momentary failure, but fails on a fundamental level by ignoring everything he'd gained the last time the audience actually saw him.

[Scowling Dragon]

Of all the groups we see (and there arent a lot) they all seem restricted to one system.

Really its because I find it kinda nasty that the Jedi sure are proactive about finding new recruits but super passive about anything else.

But in no way have the Jedi ever limited any other group. So the other groups have never achieved the scope of the jedi.

[Mechalich]

The structure of the Jedi vis a vis the Republic and other force traditions has a great deal to do with the cultural and societal structure of the Star Wars galaxy.

Star Wars as a property was created in the 20th Century, so the intuitive approach is to consider it a reflection of the 20th Century world. However, this is inaccurate. The galaxy is actually setup according to an earlier model, something much more 19th Century in scope.

There is a huge cultural divide in Star Wars between the 'spacer' culture and the various indigenous cultures scattered across the galaxy. The spacer culture is spread across many worlds but is focused in the Core. It includes aliens but it is human dominated and most of the species who participate in it are humanoid and acceptable to human sensibilities. The Hutts are pretty much the only non-humanoid species that has managed to attain influence in this culture. The actual list of species is quite short. This list of species utilized in SWTOR shows pretty much all the big names (alongside a few game specific entries like the Esh-Kha).

The spacer culture has a relationship with the rest of the galaxy that is basically equivalent to that of the colonial European powers during the 19th century. If you think of the Republic as the British Empire you'll have a perfectly functional model (and indeed the rise of the Galactic Empire is rather like imagining if the British Empire had metamorphosed into Nazi Germany after WWI). Obviously this position entails some rather substantial moral compromises and it is no wonder that the Republic has a tendency to be spectacularly corrupt. The cycle of Star Wars history is one of prolonged colonial expansion - the Republic expands into a new frontier, acts like a nasty colonialist there, the frontier rebels, the rebellion is put down and the frontier becomes incorporated into the Republic. Each time this happens the borders get pushed back slightly further towards the edge of the galaxy (this map illustrates this visually).

The Jedi Order is the force tradition associated with the spacer culture. This is largely a historical artifact. The Jedi Order chose to back the Republic in their early conflict with the Tionese and the Hutts and remained associated with the republic - though occasionally withdrawing into seclusion - thereafter. As the Republic advanced in its expansion the Jedi necessarily expanded alongside it and as spacer culture absorbed the citizens of various world so to were native force traditions absorbed or subsumed into the Jedi Order. Those that survived tended to be those isolated among unusual alien species (like the Baran Do Sages) or willing to accept that they would be outcompeted by the Jedi and maintaining only very small numbers (like the Jal Shey or Makutai). The Jedi did periodically encounter relatively strong native force traditions at times - the Sith are actually the most prominent example of this - and either entered into conflict with and destroyed them, or gradually diluted and largely absorbed them through cultural diffusion. To see an early-stage example of this happening play the Voss parts of SWTOR.

So the Jedi Order is the only force tradition capable of functioning of the galactic stage, because it is the only force tradition broadly accepted by the dominant galactic culture. And that acceptance is absolutely necessary. Force users are powerful, but they are exceedingly rare. Unless they install themselves as a Sith-style oligarchy the loss of popular support can lead to ostracism and extermination very easily.

[Jayngfet]

Of course that's objectively wrong. The nonhuman count in the senate is far greater than the number of humans and there isn't much indication that there are masses of aliens that aren't allowed representation. Gungans are secluded and isolationist but got a senator as soon as relations opened up. The jedi council is almost invariably more nonhuman than human, and it's members will often come from species with strong local traditions.

The idea that they only got there by being vaguely humanoid implies that humanoid isn't the default shape in the galaxy, which is objectively untrue running through any list of individuals we see. There's exactly one alien without a humanoid body layout in Mos Eisley in the first film(not counting Jabba) none in the second, and maybe two or three depending on how you define it even in Jabba's palace.

The republic is not an active colonial force. Any real colonizing was done literal thousands of years before the story takes place and there is no cultural carryover to the modern era.

[Mechalich]

Of course that's objectively wrong. The nonhuman count in the senate is far greater than the number of humans and there isn't much indication that there are masses of aliens that aren't allowed representation. Gungans are secluded and isolationist but got a senator as soon as relations opened up. The jedi council is almost invariably more nonhuman than human, and it's members will often come from species with strong local traditions.

How do you know the nonhuman count is greater than the human count? Did you measure? I just checked the list for all Senators with names beginning with A and I get 7 Aliens, 8 Humans, and 2 Unknowns. Also, no the Gungans did not get a Senator. They got a Junior Representative. The Jedi High Council of the Prequels includes a lot of aliens, but they are heavily represented by 'spacer' aliens like Kel Dor, Togruta, and Zabraks.

There are lots of aliens in the spacer culture. In fact it probably has an alien majority overall (just like the Vicotorian Era British would have had a non-British majority is you counted up everyone who lived in lands claimed by the empire) in terms of raw numbers, but the cultural impetus is driven by humans in a small number of human Core Worlds. They include Alderaan, Chandrila, and Corellia - the Senators of which, all humans, founded the Rebellion (Corellia only gets included in Legends).

The republic is not an active colonial force. Any real colonizing was done literal thousands of years before the story takes place and there is no cultural carryover to the modern era.

Naboo was colonized in 867 BBY - that's the new canon date. Colonization is an active and ongoing process. This is even shown in the OT - when Admiral Ozzel tries to imply that the Rebel base on Hoth is actually an uncharted settlement. Planets that are functionally part of a colonial frontier include freaking Tatooine (which was originally settled rather recently, only the colonization date kept getting pushed back so EU works could use the planet). It just pays tribute to the Hutts not the Republic.

[Jayngfet]

...except that the term "spacer culture" appears exactly nowhere in any Star Wars media. It's a term you just made up to reference itself, so that you can try to redraw the lines of how everything works your way, instead of how the actual stories portray them.

[Dr.Samurai]

There's one particular statement Luke made that is most important.

"To say if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity, don't you see that?"

There is more to the Universe than the Jedi and sith. The Galaxy will survive without them. And beyond any specific group of heroes or religious orders

The PT is a Sith masterminding the take-over of the Republic, and no one is in *any* type of position to stop him except maybe the Jedi. The OT is the same Sith brutally controlling the galaxy, and a Rebel alliance with little hope of defeating the Empire. Why? Because when the rebels do their trench runs a Sith pilot named Darth Vader starts killing them. It takes a Jedi-in-training to destroy the Death Star.

And in the ST, we have... not-Sith (*rolls eyes*) conquering the galaxy, and everyone looking for the Jedi once again to save the day. And... he does. And the up and coming hero has the sacred Jedi texts.

So... I don't think it's as vane as Luke thinks. The Sith are obviously a threat to the Republic whenever they surface. And it appears that only the Jedi can stop them. Or... is there another epic story that Luke knows about that we don't?

Yes, they would have. They were looking for him. The Jedi Order was fully aware that a Sith Lord was operating at the highest levels of the Republic government. Anakin specifically says I think he's the Sith Lord we've been looking for" when he reveals Palpatine's identity.

They were fully aware because Darth Maul reveals himself, and the council makes the connection "Always two". Even after Maul reveals himself the first time they aren't convinced that it's the Sith. Only after he murders Qui-gon are they like "Oh ****, looks like it's the Sith, and there's always a Master and Apprentice".

So yes, Sidious allows them to realize there are Sith about. Yes, they are looking for the guy that is giving Tyranus orders. It doesn't mean they are close. They have Palpatine spied on by Anakin, but not because they think he's the Sith lord. They just don't trust him. The *only* reason they figure out he's the Sith lord is because, once again, he reveals himself to the Jedi. Anakin says "I think he's the Sith Lord we've been looking for" because they have no idea who they're looking for.

Nothing in the PT indicates to me that they would have discovered Sidious out before he executes Order 66.

Also, in general it's really not fair to judge the Jedi Order by the sins of the PT time period. The PT represents the emergence of the Empire. It's the worst loss the Jedi Order ever suffered in a 25,000 year time span and it took 1,000 years of Sith planning - which resulted in a Golden Age because the Sith weren't constantly trying to wreck the place - to pull off. This is the worst failure in the history of the Jedi and even then it was a close run thing. Palpatine gambled on long odds several times in order to succeed.

To me this reads as: The Jedi are fine so long as the Sith aren't around.

Yes, they're perfectly reasonable peace keepers during a golden age of peace.

But they failed to prevent the rise of the Empire, they failed to take down the Empire after it was in place, and now they've failed to deal with the aftermath of the fall of the Empire.

It would be one thing if the galaxy was like "Oh man, the news is that some senator was actually a sith villain trying to take over the galaxy, but luckily the Republic has a corp of Force-wielding warrior mystics that were able to sense the menace behind these conflicts and root him out, and they confronted him and defeated him! Thank god we have the Jedi."

But instead every movie shows us that if the Sith are around the Jedi struggle to deal with them.

I think the Jedi are awesome, but that's mostly in my head canon.

[Hopeless]

I'm still thinking Snoke was a Jedi Seer imprisoned and corrupted by Palpatine.
So witnessed Vader tombstoning the Emperor down the DS2 reactor shaft after he discovered Luke has a sister.
Clearly a Vader fanboy so maybe he was one of those kids Anakin was thought to have killed?!
So not a Sith was trying to re-establish the Empire with a Jedi Theocracy ruling but Luke was far too dangerous even Snoke's Vader replica couldn't kill him now Snoke's dead and his creation rules in his stead.

[Sapphire Guard]

An obvious example is Nute Gunray. By the time the clone wars begin he's essentially a war criminal with a list of human rights violations as long as your arm. But instead of being arrested and imprisoned he is free to raise an army and would conquer the galaxy if not for a convenient clone army.

That's blaming Batman for Arkham. He was arrested, he just had good lawyers.

I'm simply saying that they think they're the only ones who can save it.

I'm not so sure. The Jedi are quite vocal about their own limitations. They can't free Naboo without support. They can't fight the Clone Wars without support. Yoda and Obi Wan know they have one chance to destroy the Emperor, but only one.

Luke considers himself a liability to the plan to take down DS2.

"Oh man, the news is that some senator was actually a sith villain trying to take over the galaxy, but luckily the Republic has a corp of Force-wielding warrior mystics that were able to sense the menace behind these conflicts and root him out, and they confronted him and defeated him! Thank god we have the Jedi."

Hard to make a good story out of that.

We don't know if they would have discovered Palpatine without Anakin, because that doesn't get to happen. Maybe, maybe not.

I don't remember seeing Jedi dismiss other Force faiths particularly, Sith aside. While they're not strictly necessary for the fate of the galaxy, it's difficult to stop the precognitive mind reading darksiders otherwise.

[Devonix]

Pappatine didn't rise to power because he wasa sith he rose to power because he was a smart and cunning polititian.

Sith and force powers had almost nothing to do with it.

[Dr.Samurai]

The Sith use their powers and abilities in the Force and combat to acquire allies, minions, resources, power, influence, etc. And then they wield the newly acquired power/influence/resources in public under a civilian persona. This is from Darth Bane on right up to Darth Sidious.

It's not a coincidence that the "smart and cunning politician" that gained control of the Republic also happens to be the most powerful force-user in the galaxy.

[Jayngfet]

That's blaming Batman for Arkham. He was arrested, he just had good lawyers.

He was conspiring with a Sith Lord. Who turned out to still be alive but who's body they just apparently never went looking for. I highly doubt a large red man with no legs would have blended in when he tried to leave the planet.

[Devonix]

The Sith use their powers and abilities in the Force and combat to acquire allies, minions, resources, power, influence, etc. And then they wield the newly acquired power/influence/resources in public under a civilian persona. This is from Darth Bane on right up to Darth Sidious.

It's not a coincidence that the "smart and cunning politician" that gained control of the Republic also happens to be the most powerful force-user in the galaxy.

Pappatine would have been just as. If not more dangerous if he wasn't a sith in my opinion.

Because then he wouldn't have to deal with the Jedi trying to sniff out a force user.

Unless you're one of those that believe every conversation, political, or business deal had him using the force on people.

[Blackhawk748]

Pappatine would have been just as. If not more dangerous if he wasn't a sith in my opinion.

Because then he wouldn't have to deal with the Jedi trying to sniff out a force user.

Unless you're one of those that believe every conversation, political, or business deal had him using the force on people.

No, but he did have it and it very much was used. Basically he didnt need the Force, it just made him far more dangerous.

[Devonix]

No, but he did have it and it very much was used. Basically he didnt need the Force, it just made him far more dangerous.

That I'll agree with.

[Dr.Samurai]

Pappatine would have been just as. If not more dangerous if he wasn't a sith in my opinion.

Because then he wouldn't have to deal with the Jedi trying to sniff out a force user.

He was never at any risk of being discovered by the Jedi. Palpatine was standing right next to them all throughout the PT and they never knew he was there. Meanwhile, Palpatine is like "I sense Darth Vader is in trouble"... on another planet.

Unless you're one of those that believe every conversation, political, or business deal had him using the force on people.

I'm not. But I'm also not one of those people that thinks Palpatine would be more dangerous without force powers lol .

The Sith accumulate wealth and power behind the scenes. It's what they do. And they do it with their Force powers. That's why Palpatine has a Sidious alter-ego that he appears as in a hologram when he's ordering around his minions throughout the galaxy. Because his Sith side grants him access to powers/resources/servants that would never be in league or serve the cunning politician, Palpatine.

One persona uses brute power and intimidation to get stuff. The other persona maneuvers things through politics.