The Last Jedi 2: The Next Last Jedi

[Blackhawk748]

The Jedi fighting Form's are canon. They were greatly expanded upon in the EU, but they are still canon. And i find it funny that TLJ makes zero effort to really pay attention to the other Star Wars things out there (im talking Disney Canon, or NU canon) as Disney was making this big deal about how they have like a story team or something to work out the new canon. Currently the canon is a bigger mess than the EU ever was.

[Forum Explorer]

The Jedi fighting Form's are canon. They were greatly expanded upon in the EU, but they are still canon. And i find it funny that TLJ makes zero effort to really pay attention to the other Star Wars things out there (im talking Disney Canon, or NU canon) as Disney was making this big deal about how they have like a story team or something to work out the new canon. Currently the canon is a bigger mess than the EU ever was.

Where in the movies do they talk about them?

Because seriously, if it doesn't come up in the movies, I'm fully expecting it to be ignored in future movies. Disney can claim the moon is a giant peach, but that won't make it true either.

[Blackhawk748]

Where in the movies do they talk about them?

Because seriously, if it doesn't come up in the movies, I'm fully expecting it to be ignored in future movies. Disney can claim the moon is a giant peach, but that won't make it true either.

They aren't, they show up in Disney's supplemental material. And if they keep ignoring their own material its just going to make people care less and less about said supplemental materiel, and stop buying it. And they wonder why people stick with the EU.

[GloatingSwine]

They aren't, they show up in Disney's supplemental material. And if they keep ignoring their own material its just going to make people care less and less about said supplemental materiel, and stop buying it. And they wonder why people stick with the EU.

The movies have and will always be made with the assumption that nobody watching them has read any of the supplemental material.

Because the people who actually have are a teeny tiny percentage of the people who will go to the cinema or watch the movies on DVD.

Nobody sticks with the EU either. If you ask an ordinary not-a-massive-nerd person whether they prefer the old or new Star Wars extended universe they will ask you to leave them alone.

[Dr.Samurai]

That still makes the character overpowered and removes the need for development. OP characters rarely ever amount to anything positive sans just a self insertion fantasy flick.

There is a reason people give more Legitimate Credit to things like Die Hard then something like Commando.

Both have powerful protagonists, but one is nearly damned indestructible and the other projects are real vulnerability.

I'm not saying it would fix her character. I think it was a mistake to have her beat Kylo in TFA, unless this trilogy's message is "Don't be conflicted", and Kylo is doomed to lose in every movie. And she shouldn't be able to walk onto the Supremacy, defy Snoke and Kylo, and walk out. Especially during a chase.

But as an explanation for her proficiency in the Force, I think this could work. This is a principle that Yoda told to Luke, so it's already established. And her defining feature could be that she's a prodigy in how to use the Force. For everyone that doesn't like the idea of bloodline impacting Force potential, the idea of the Force balancing itself through individuals is far worse for me.

But Rey just being naturally gifted at it, sure. But for that to work she'd have to have some awareness of it, instead of the big-eyed wonderment every time she uses it.

I think this latest movie makes the statement that, that doesn't matter.

Well, it's canon, so it's there. It just seems like people are trying to have their cake and eat it too. It's a triumph of this movie that Rey isn't a Skywalker (according to some), but to explain her extraordinary ability in the Force, people point to the Skywalkers. Well, that's kind of the point, the Skywalkers were extraordinary, because Anakin was half human half Force. And his son inherited that power. So when people see Rey's extraordinary ability, and the movie makes a mystery about her parentage, and Luke's lightsaber calls out to her, people speculate she must be a Skywalker.

And when she isn't, they wonder how she's so good then, having never been trained. And then people point to the Skywalkers...

He's so mentally disturbed he can't use force pull at all.

He throws Rey so hard with the Force it knocks her unconscious. So if anything, the movie demonstrates that, despite his injury, he is still quick enough to outpace Finn and Rey, he can still wield the Force with power, he can still defeat two combatants in combat with ease.

Finn landing a blow is no different than Luke landing a blow on Vader. Both dark siders are not being serious in the fight.

Again, the reason you get indoctrinated as a kid by the Jedi is because fear and anger lead to the dark side. If Kylo is conflicted about killing his father, that fear and anger and hatred would make him stronger. The pain from the wound would make him stronger.

I'm rehashing all of this, so I apologize, but I just don't see it. If the wound were pivotal, Abrams would have shown Kylo limping after Rey, or struggling to keep up with her as she retreated under his rain of blows through the woods. Or wincing with each saber swing. There'd be an indication that Rey notices his pain and impairment. We don't get any of that. There's no indication that the wound is slowing him down. For all the talk and show of the mighty bowcaster, the wound that gets Kylo to start limping and dragging in the fight is the one Rey delivers with the lightsaber.

Do I think the bowcaster hurt Kylo? Yes, absolutely. But does it play a part in his defeat at the hands of Rey? No. He very clearly defeated her before she went Kaio-Ken x20.

@Foeofthelance: There's a difference between Rey's athleticism and Rey's combat prowess. The former would impact the latter, but it wouldn't create it out of nowhere. I think the things you mention about Rey make her scrappy, not someone you want to deal with. But that's wholly different to a trained knight or elite guard. That's the precision thing. She defeats trained warriors with a weapon she's never used before. Similar to the comment about her being a great pilot because she's familiar with scrap parts. It just doesn't jive.

Some people will feel like Rey has earned her abilities, but I'm not one of those people. For me, you've really got to squint hard to say that there are good reasons for her piloting, fighting, and force prowess.

[GloatingSwine]

Well, it's canon, so it's there. It just seems like people are trying to have their cake and eat it too. It's a triumph of this movie that Rey isn't a Skywalker (according to some), but to explain her extraordinary ability in the Force, people point to the Skywalkers. Well, that's kind of the point, the Skywalkers were extraordinary, because Anakin was half human half Force. And his son inherited that power. So when people see Rey's extraordinary ability, and the movie makes a mystery about her parentage, and Luke's lightsaber calls out to her, people speculate she must be a Skywalker.

Except they actually weren't extraordinary in the films.

Anakin was never better than Obi-Wan at anything, especially having the high ground, then played second fiddle to Palpatine. Luke lost every confrontation until he tapped into the dark side and his best accomplishments came in a starfighter or managing to be so pitiful even a Dark Lord of the Sith was moved...

Everyone got in a tizzy about how many midichlorians Anakin had but they never actually did him any good.

[Blackhawk748]

The movies have and will always be made with the assumption that nobody watching them has read any of the supplemental material.

Because the people who actually have are a teeny tiny percentage of the people who will go to the cinema or watch the movies on DVD.

Nobody sticks with the EU either. If you ask an ordinary not-a-massive-nerd person whether they prefer the old or new Star Wars extended universe they will ask you to leave them alone.

Then why make any of it at all? If you're just going to chuck it out the window the moment it becomes even the tiniest bit of an inconvenience, why have any level of canon? Because if Disney didnt care about what was canon, they wouldnt have de-canonized the EU.

Tell that to the over 1 million people who bought Star Wars #1 by Marvel, or all the people who have bought the RPGs over the years.

[Jayngfet]

Is a Jedi's training ever complete? Seriously, a large part of it is philosophy and mental state. And when Luke claims to be a Knight, be did so because he had a realization and took control over himself. He didn't pass a test, or learn a new skill.

Yes he did. The moments preceding that one are a direct callback to the failed test he had in the prior movie. Vader says his actual skills are complete by that point, at least as far as Vader is concerned. Confronting Vader is mentioned as being the last step Yoda says he needs to take. In that moment he filled in the last piece of the puzzle and for all intents and purposes became a Jedi Knight. He wasn't a master, but insomuch as he could claim the title of Jedi he had done everything he needed to.

QUOTE=Blackhawk748;22728460]Then why make any of it at all? If you're just going to chuck it out the window the moment it becomes even the tiniest bit of an inconvenience, why have any level of canon? Because if Disney didnt care about what was canon, they wouldnt have de-canonized the EU.

Tell that to the over 1 million people who bought Star Wars #1 by Marvel, or all the people who have bought the RPGs over the years.[/QUOTE]

I'll do you one better. Disney invested millions into material that was already consistently topping NYT best seller posts and sales charts before that point. They've visibly committed to that material many times over both as a part of their business strategy and creatively. Claiming it doesn't matter is a denial of what's going on.

[Psyren]

You've missed the point.

The point is that many people are arguing that it is bad that we are not showing Rey being trained because they have a preconception about what level of training a Jedi "should" have.

And since none of those people are Jedi they are all wrong.

Precisely this, my thanks to you for getting it.

There is an entire network and infrastructure devoted to training Jedi, and we see this in the movies.

There is an entire network and infrastructure devoted to lots of disciplines, including mathematics, science, and piano. Part of the point of being a child prodigy is that you either do not need this infrastructure at all, or can benefit massively from only brief or rudimentary exposure to it. Rey is a prodigy, just like Luke was a prodigy. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

They aren't, they show up in Disney's supplemental material. And if they keep ignoring their own material its just going to make people care less and less about said supplemental materiel, and stop buying it. And they wonder why people stick with the EU.

And that's completely fine, EU isn't going anywhere. By all means, stick with the spaghetti you enjoy. It's using it to try and lambast or gainsay what's going on in Disney's canon that I'm perplexed by. Until you know what elements they plan to keep and which discard, it's highly illogical.

[Yora]

But as an explanation for her proficiency in the Force, I think this could work. This is a principle that Yoda told to Luke, so it's already established. And her defining feature could be that she's a prodigy in how to use the Force. For everyone that doesn't like the idea of bloodline impacting Force potential, the idea of the Force balancing itself through individuals is far worse for me.

What makes me sleep peacefully at night is the believe that movies work more like dramatic retellings of events than factual documentation of events. Storytelling is not just about writing a good plot, but even more about making it an entertaining presentation. Of course it's always best if you can have both, and the solid plots are something Star Wars has always been weak at. But I always get the most out of analyzing movies (which I really do consider a very worthwhile activity) when focusing on the emotional narrative. If the things that are shown on the screen defy physics or the lines of the dialog are inconsistent, those are secondary concerns to me. It's always sad when it happens and filmmakers should hold themselves to a higher standard and avoid such sloppiness, but when the emotional journey of the characters comes across as believable, that's the most important thing to me.
And in that regard, Last Jedi delivered more for me than any Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi.

[Blackhawk748]

Yes he did. The moments preceding that one are a direct callback to the failed test he had in the prior movie. Vader says his actual skills are complete by that point, at least as far as Vader is concerned. Confronting Vader is mentioned as being the last step Yoda says he needs to take. In that moment he filled in the last piece of the puzzle and for all intents and purposes became a Jedi Knight. He wasn't a master, but insomuch as he could claim the title of Jedi he had done everything he needed to

Ya, if willingly turning yourself over to Space Hitler Satan to distract him so your friends can destroy his Planet Cracker doesnt get you the title Jedi Knight, im not sure what would.

Also i do believe it is called out that a Jedi's training is never truly finished, they are supposed to continue trying to improve themselves.

[Jayngfet]

Rey is a prodigy, just like Luke was a prodigy. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

Because, mister all knowing of Canon, Luke wasn't a prodigy. He failed many times over a course of half a decade to get where Rey was on day one.

[Jayngfet]

Also i do believe it is called out that a Jedi's training is never truly finished, they are supposed to continue trying to improve themselves.

Jedi training never being finished in a vague sense is vastly different from someone hitting or failing to hit specific benchmarks. Which is the distinction. A Jedi Master can learn, but they get to be the master because they hit those specific goals set to award them the title. Luke had more to learn, but he hit specific benchmarks that were recognized by multiple people who also hit them.

[Psyren]

Because, mister all knowing of Canon, Luke wasn't a prodigy. He failed many times over a course of half a decade to get where Rey was on day one.

"Prodigy" does not equal never failing. It means being talented at a young age, with minimal training, or both. Which he was.

Rey possibly being even more talented does not change that.

[Blackhawk748]

Jedi training never being finished in a vague sense is vastly different from someone hitting or failing to hit specific benchmarks. Which is the distinction. A Jedi Master can learn, but they get to be the master because they hit those specific goals set to award them the title. Luke had more to learn, but he hit specific benchmarks that were recognized by multiple people who also hit them.

True, i was just pointing out that thats their mentality.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, it's canon, so it's there. It just seems like people are trying to have their cake and eat it too. It's a triumph of this movie that Rey isn't a Skywalker (according to some), but to explain her extraordinary ability in the Force, people point to the Skywalkers. Well, that's kind of the point, the Skywalkers were extraordinary, because Anakin was half human half Force. And his son inherited that power. So when people see Rey's extraordinary ability, and the movie makes a mystery about her parentage, and Luke's lightsaber calls out to her, people speculate she must be a Skywalker.

And when she isn't, they wonder how she's so good then, having never been trained. And then people point to the Skywalkers...

He throws Rey so hard with the Force it knocks her unconscious. So if anything, the movie demonstrates that, despite his injury, he is still quick enough to outpace Finn and Rey, he can still wield the Force with power, he can still defeat two combatants in combat with ease.

Finn landing a blow is no different than Luke landing a blow on Vader. Both dark siders are not being serious in the fight.

Again, the reason you get indoctrinated as a kid by the Jedi is because fear and anger lead to the dark side. If Kylo is conflicted about killing his father, that fear and anger and hatred would make him stronger. The pain from the wound would make him stronger.

I'm rehashing all of this, so I apologize, but I just don't see it. If the wound were pivotal, Abrams would have shown Kylo limping after Rey, or struggling to keep up with her as she retreated under his rain of blows through the woods. Or wincing with each saber swing. There'd be an indication that Rey notices his pain and impairment. We don't get any of that. There's no indication that the wound is slowing him down. For all the talk and show of the mighty bowcaster, the wound that gets Kylo to start limping and dragging in the fight is the one Rey delivers with the lightsaber.

Do I think the bowcaster hurt Kylo? Yes, absolutely. But does it play a part in his defeat at the hands of Rey? No. He very clearly defeated her before she went Kaio-Ken x20.

@Foeofthelance: There's a difference between Rey's athleticism and Rey's combat prowess. The former would impact the latter, but it wouldn't create it out of nowhere. I think the things you mention about Rey make her scrappy, not someone you want to deal with. But that's wholly different to a trained knight or elite guard. That's the precision thing. She defeats trained warriors with a weapon she's never used before. Similar to the comment about her being a great pilot because she's familiar with scrap parts. It just doesn't jive.

Some people will feel like Rey has earned her abilities, but I'm not one of those people. For me, you've really got to squint hard to say that there are good reasons for her piloting, fighting, and force prowess.

Sure. Anakin was born of the Force. But that doesn't matter. Being born of the Force doesn't actually make you a better Jedi. It's another reason why the old Jedi sucked. They thought mediclorians mattered. In the end, not really. Anakin's feats were never all that more impressive then any other Jedi, and now Rey. There might be a genetic correlation with Force Sensitivity, but that doesn't match up with strength or skill.

People point to the Skywalkers and say Rey is just like them, is not saying Rey is super special awesome, it's saying the Skywalkers are normal for Jedi. They aren't special, and neither is Rey. Frig, Broom kid points to that as well. No training, likely no understanding of the Force beyond stories and legends, and he's already using it just fine.

Yeah, Ren is really tough.

But I disagree. I see lots of indications that Ren is suffering and not at his best. He's bleeding, he's failing at using force powers (succeeding sometimes doesn't mean he's in good condition. If someone can do something 100% and then they drop to 70% you don't look at the 70% and say they are doing just fine.) He's hissing in pain, he's beating his injury, he's pale and sweaty, he's walking while Rey runs. If you don't think that's enough to portray his injuries, then that's entirely on you.

I also disagree that he's not being serious against Finn. He cuts him down as quickly as he can and without hesitation. Also, there is a world of difference between Vader getting his robot body hit (or maybe just his armor) and Ren getting cut by the lightsaber. We see later the injury his face took from a glancing blow, there is no reason to suspect Finn's blow didn't do something similar.

Again, damage is cumulative, and people have limits. The final blow might be the one to finally put someone down, but that doesn't mean the other blows did nothing. I don't know how to explain that clearer. But it's just how things work.

Then why make any of it at all? If you're just going to chuck it out the window the moment it becomes even the tiniest bit of an inconvenience, why have any level of canon? Because if Disney didnt care about what was canon, they wouldnt have de-canonized the EU.

To make money. Duh. (I apologize for my tone, but seriously, why else?)

They de-canonized the EU so they could sell you new stories in the exact same timeframe in which stories existed. Disney is not your friend and they will say whatever it takes to get you to buy their product, even if it's blatant lies or saying that the old canon no longer exists.

Would it be better if they payed closer attention to the various canon to prevent inconsistencies? You bet. Would it be all that hard to do? Not really. Are they doing it? Clearly not.

Is this going to prevent you from buying the new EU? Well that's up to you. I'm certainly not going to pay for anything in the new EU. I might read/watch it if it's free or if my friends are showing it to me, but that's about it. And yes, this is a factor on why.

[Blackhawk748]

Is this going to prevent you from buying the new EU? Well that's up to you. I'm certainly not going to pay for anything in the new EU. I might read/watch it if it's free or if my friends are showing it to me, but that's about it. And yes, this is a factor on why.

Yes, yes it is. If its not going to be consistent from even one series to the next, i dont really see a point in reading into their Universe. I will be getting Red Harvest and Death Troopers, but both of those are non canon.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm late to the discussion,

Spoiler

Show

but Luke says he'll give three lessons to Rey, and we see two.

1. Reach out.
2. Why the Jedi Suck 101

3. Is in the deleted scenes, Luke tells Rey the fishpeople are being raided, but she mustn't intervene. She does, and it's a party instead. The lesson is that Jedi don't intervene unless it's a matter of balance.

And that's all. Everything else is self taught.

[Jayngfet]

Also nobody ever trains him to fight with a Lightsabre, fly a starfighter, or time his torpedo shots.

We see him train in the first movie, he's explicitly a bush pilot with enough flight hours going by just dialogue, and he's cleared to use all systems on an X-Wing going by the same dialogue. If you want to get technical nothing he does in Return of the Jedi is actually anything he makes up himself, it's all just tricks Vader used against him in Empire Strikes Back.

Which is the difference people don't get. Luke very much has to justify everything he has. He doesn't just suddenly get to be the cool badass hero. He spends an entire film stumbling and having other people help him and basically just being there while more capable people(Han or Leia or Ben on the Death Star, Biggs or Wedge or Han again in the trench run) do the heavy lifting until the end. That's why the original movie and the original trilogy work. Luke Skywalker is a vulnerable character who has moments to suggest he can be more than he is, but continually makes mistakes and has incremental progression over a far longer time period. He loses people and things important to him and has to move past them.

There's no real reason to care about Rey's arc because she has no real motivation personal to her. The only reason the jedi are important to the audience as a concept is because they've been taught that because it's been important to more engaging characters. If Rey is somehow leading an all new order with a total break in philosophy one can expect the audience to just drop the series given the three hundred million dropoff in estimates and storm of bad reviews.

[Dr.Samurai]

Except they actually weren't extraordinary in the films.

Anakin was never better than Obi-Wan at anything, especially having the high ground, then played second fiddle to Palpatine. Luke lost every confrontation until he tapped into the dark side and his best accomplishments came in a starfighter or managing to be so pitiful even a Dark Lord of the Sith was moved...

Everyone got in a tizzy about how many midichlorians Anakin had but they never actually did him any good.

Ok, but you're coming from a position where training doesn't matter, and also where bloodline doesn't matter. So sure, then they're not remarkable.

But if you take training into consideration, then they are remarkable. Because unlike the Jedi masters that trained them, Anakin and Luke didn't begin training when they were younglings. Anakin especially, who is passionate and has many pent up insecurities due to his life as a slave, has a problem utilizing the Force because he never learned to suppress/ignore/mute his emotions. But despite starting late, he is unmatched by few. Even Kenobi. Obi-wan says to Anakin "... you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be." He tells Anakin to be patient, that it won't be long before he is made master, and Anakin is like the same age when Kenobi became a knight!

Obi-Wan later tells Luke Skywalker that Vader helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. I wonder why none of the other Jedi killed him... The answer is because despite being nearly half machine, he is still stronger in the Force than any of them. He is still more powerful than Kenobi, as seen on the Death Star when he defeats him.

Similarly with Luke, his training is not formal, and inconsistent, yet he goes on to become the greatest Jedi, as per word of god.

So yes, they were exceptional, and still had to be trained. Despite being born with an advantage, they had to earn their abilities.

Rey on the other hand, has not trained, and has no special bloodline. The reason for her power is the balance in the Force. So according to the new canon, the Force gives you proficiency in force techniques, lightsaber combat, and piloting. Probably other things too, as the plot demands. This is not nearly as fulfilling in a hero.

Rey is a prodigy, just like Luke was a prodigy. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

The movie does not portray Rey as a prodigy. I'm not opposed to the idea, as I'm sure you've gathered from my previous posts. But that's not what the movie is telling us, as her abilities are explained through the balance in the Force.

Don't forget that this entire exchange started when I said "Rey just gets stronger for no reason" and you said "There is a training montage where Luke teaches her force techniques and lightsaber techniques, etc."

That's what is hard for me to grasp. The alternative movie you saw in your head.

[Jayngfet]

That's what is hard for me to grasp. The alternative movie you saw in your head.

This is kind of tangential, but I've noticed of late that when people want to like something, they'll fill in the mental gaps and infer information that not only isn't there, but can't be there based on the information that is. Because when you want to like something that badly you'll have to construct your own reasons.

When 7 first came out, I talked to a lot of people who wanted to like it so badly you could almost physically see the pain on their face as they jumped through mental hoops. It had to be good for them. Even when confronted with all of the actual problems it causes for the whole series and without an actual answer on hand they'll more or less declare it fine if the entire thing retroactively becomes worse off so long as they're able to like this one thing.

[Forum Explorer]

This is kind of tangential, but I've noticed of late that when people want to like something, they'll fill in the mental gaps and infer information that not only isn't there, but can't be there based on the information that is. Because when you want to like something that badly you'll have to construct your own reasons.

Sure, and I see the opposite all the time as well. When people don't like something, they nit-pick every little thing, won't accept any explanation, and make mountains out of molehills. Even to the point of actually forgetting/ignoring parts of the thing that actually exist in order to 'justify' their dislike.

The weird part isn't that we do this, everyone does, all the time. It's weird that we feel the need to justify it one way or the other. Well, I find that weird anyways. And yes, I've caught myself doing both before.

[Dr.Samurai]

It's true. It's just our perspectives. We're all predisposed to see things from a certain point of view, and that's how we receive it. I made a similar point in the previous thread when someone said that people will just like whatever is put in front of them. And it's like, sure, but they'll retort that we *won't* like *anything* you put in front of us. It's the same thing.

That said, I like these discussions precisely because my perspective is limited to my own frame of reference. So I get to see and hear what other people are getting out of it. Some of it I just don't get, but some of it I do, like the "There is no try" line.

I didn't really hate the prequels like many people did, but I do think they're bad movies (heavily flawed, at least). But I do appreciate the story they are trying to tell, particularly the downfall of the Republic into the Empire. I love a character like Palpatine, and I love to see the true power of evil demonstrated, something that lurks unseen and works to corrupt from within. But, the movies weren't good lol. That said, watching Everything Great With on YouTube concerning the prequels gives me a new found respect for some parts of the movie.

So, even if these conversations get heated or we never see eye to eye, I enjoy having them .

[Scowling Dragon]

When 7 first came out, I talked to a lot of people who wanted to like it so badly you could almost physically see the pain on their face as they jumped through mental hoops. It had to be good for them. Even when confronted with all of the actual problems it causes for the whole series and without an actual answer on hand they'll more or less declare it fine if the entire thing retroactively becomes worse off so long as they're able to like this one thing.

I talked to those types of people as well *cough* nudge *cough* wink *Cough*

But I would be lying if I didn't engage in this sort of behavior myself every once in a while. Sometimes it beats the alternative.

Pure unrestrained misery and isolation.

[Baby Gary]

It's true. It's just our perspectives. We're all predisposed to see things from a certain point of view, and that's how we receive it. I made a similar point in the previous thread when someone said that people will just like whatever is put in front of them. And it's like, sure, but they'll retort that we *won't* like *anything* you put in front of us. It's the same thing.

That said, I like these discussions precisely because my perspective is limited to my own frame of reference. So I get to see and hear what other people are getting out of it. Some of it I just don't get, but some of it I do, like the "There is no try" line.

I didn't really hate the prequels like many people did, but I do think they're bad movies (heavily flawed, at least). But I do appreciate the story they are trying to tell, particularly the downfall of the Republic into the Empire. I love a character like Palpatine, and I love to see the true power of evil demonstrated, something that lurks unseen and works to corrupt from within. But, the movies weren't good lol. That said, watching Everything Great With on YouTube concerning the prequels gives me a new found respect for some parts of the movie.

So, even if these conversations get heated or we never see eye to eye, I enjoy having them .

I agree with about everything there, even the stuff about the prequels. I actually really like the battle scenes and only really hate some of the dialog (like sand).

One thing that I don't like about these discussions (I do do this though) is when people get so heated and rooted into their argument that they don't see the other side and call them idiots or worse because of that. Just be nice people, its not that hard*

*Actually it is, like really hard. I don't do it all the time, lol.

[Scowling Dragon]

Just be nice people, its not that hard*

Its the internet. Intent is hard to construe and so every person feels like the worst possible person who spites you and probably hates kittens.

Good debate is also harder to do as you can't just watch a video together and go step by step. Its like a game of broken telephone.

[Baby Gary]

Its the internet. Intent is hard to construe and so every person feels like the worst possible person who spites you and probably hates kittens.

Good debate is also harder to do as you can't just watch a video together and go step by step. Its like a game of broken telephone.

who could hate kittens

also I think this might be a bit worse than broken telephone, more like telephone, but everyone changes the phrase to something they like more and some people just ignore others

[Reddish Mage]

This is kind of tangential, but I've noticed of late that when people want to like something, they'll fill in the mental gaps and infer information that not only isn't there, but can't be there based on the information that is. Because when you want to like something that badly you'll have to construct your own reasons.

When 7 first came out, I talked to a lot of people who wanted to like it so badly you could almost physically see the pain on their face as they jumped through mental hoops. It had to be good for them. Even when confronted with all of the actual problems it causes for the whole series and without an actual answer on hand they'll more or less declare it fine if the entire thing retroactively becomes worse off so long as they're able to like this one thing.

Sometimes people like something precisely because they didn't analyze it.

Then they go into contortions only because you confronted them with all this criticism and make them feel like they need to justify the logic of the movie.

I talked to those types of people as well *cough* nudge *cough* wink *Cough*

But I would be lying if I didn't engage in this sort of behavior myself every once in a while. Sometimes it beats the alternative.

Pure unrestrained misery and isolation.

Wait, you enjoy things sometimes?

[Lord Raziere]

Sometimes people like something precisely because they didn't analyze it.

Then they go into contortions only because you confronted them with all this criticism and make them feel like they need to justify the logic of the movie.


Wait, you enjoy things sometimes?

Yeah thats kind of the disconnect I see between enraged nerds and other people who watch stuff like this in general: the people enraged don't bother to turn off their analyzer mode while the people who do enjoy the movie, never bothered to analyze it in the first place. I don't see either one as bad or less valid than the other, but really we should make more effort to understand that unanalyzed joy is just as valid as analytical approach to seeing this sort of thing. you can't live your life only analyzing everything.

and I'm just as surprised as you are that Scowling Dragon is capable of enjoying something. he does a really good job of hiding it.

[Scowling Dragon]

Wait, you enjoy things sometimes?

I have said too much! But its true! I DO enjoy things!

I enjoy stuff and post stuff I like every once in a while but nobody cares.

People only care if you adore the same things they like. And without constructive criticism. And it has to be modern and trendy.

Otherwise nobody cares or notices.

I talked a whole deal about how I like the story, and design in the Prequel Trilogy on this tgread quite allot for instance.