The Last Jedi 2: The Next Last Jedi

[Dr.Samurai]

That was amazingly well written and is almost the same way I have experienced. How about signing this and sending it to people who care?

Oh right, because nobody seems to care.....

Well, at the very least, what you wrote should be placed as an article somewhere. It's way more in-depth and wll thought through than a lot of written reviews I have read.

Have you considered submitting it so some site?

Thank you! But no, I haven't considered that. I'm not impressed with the climate that these reviews exist in. Fans are derided as unreasonable and not worthy of consideration. Plots and characterizations are lauded for nothing more than being unexpected or "different" in superficial ways.

If you actively don't care about the fans, and don't care about the original trilogy, then all you have is the brand name and the new stuff that you're putting out. And the new stuff that you're putting out is complete ****. And the "critics" are applauding all the way because they're so high-minded and intellectual because Kylo is millennials lashing out at the past generation that failed them OR Kylo is the alt-right trolls obsessed with a historical tyrant AND the Force is female AND how a purple haired feminist fights toxic masculinity and literally tears Supremacy apart and blah blah blah.

So you're a critic, and here you have a woke post modern nihilistic subversion of a beloved franchise, and of course you think it's amazing because you're so cerebral and with the times. And people who disagree are thoughtless "fans" (suddenly a bad thing). The thing is, in trying to hit all these beats, they've failed to make compelling characters or interesting plots. So on the surface you have something that facilitates provocative headlines, but beneath that you're still trying to tell a story and your story ****ing sucks.

The one part that could come about as a little ill-spirited is about the "girls power" thing, and I don't know if this was intended by you.
Matter of fact, I am a little suspicious that something like this:
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...ll-in-love-sex
might be the plans for Star Wars IX...

I'm just poking fun at Rey. I guess her motivation is that she finds out Luke failed Kylo, and feels goodness in Kylo? So she wants to redeem him? She is risking her life for someone that she hated moments before. If the revelation changed her mind, okay, but then Rey is *very* altruistic. I mean, this is like pure good. When Luke is first talking to Ben, all he asks about is his father, who he never knew and believes to be dead. So when he finds out Vader is his father, it makes sense that he might resolve to redeem him if he felt conflict there. Rey is just going through the beats. It's just funny that she is considered the "strong female character" and she's a typical good girl trying to change the bad boy. Absent other reasons anyways. I mean, she could be trying to mimic Luke's redemption of Vader, but that is so weird. It's like... you did this on paper, so I'm going to do it. But we're talking about people, characters, with personalities and motivations and flaws. So why anyone would think "oh because you did it to that person, I can do it to this person" is beyond me.

[Forum Explorer]

Pity she was too grossly incompetent to pull it off. Poe was in the freaking right objectively, particularly buy the time he takes control.

And they could have avoided it with less than 60 seconds of dialog. But it was more important to F with the audience.

Considering her plan would've worked perfectly if Poe had followed orders instead of trying some half-***ed scheme with so many points of failure it'd take a miracle for it to not **** up, I have no idea why you'd think this.

Poe literally got nearly everyone in the Resistance killed because he refused to follow orders. This is after his bomber scene where he got all the bombers killed after refusing to pull back. So he was demoted in the hopes of teaching him a lesson.

[Mightymosy]

To manipulate you into thinking that Poe's plan is the actual plot. That requires a leader that the audience doesn't know and has no sympathy with so they don't stop and examine what's actually going on.

So they basically didn't want Admiral Ackbar or General Leia to look so stupid?

That's actually a pretty good point and makes sense. Thank you, hadn't thought of that!

[Dr.Samurai]

Considering her plan would've worked perfectly if Poe had followed orders instead of trying some half-***ed scheme with so many points of failure it'd take a miracle for it to not **** up, I have no idea why you'd think this.

It would have worked perfectly if we assume that the First Order never scans for cloaked ships...

Poe literally got nearly everyone in the Resistance killed because he refused to follow orders.

Poe thought he was going to die. Poe thought everyone else was going to die. So arguably, Holdo got nearly everyone in the Resistance killed for not telling them there was hope and a plan. Poe didn't stage the mutiny by himself. Other desperate *REBELS* (you know, people who fight against authority) picked up arms against Holdo in order to save their own lives.

If Holdo had to give a briefing of the events in the movie, she has to explain the mutiny and justify why she didn't tell the crew of the ship that they had a plan to survive. Good luck with that...

[Palanan]

Originallly Posted by Metahuman1
And canonically how many decades happened between the end of Return Of The Jedi and the start of The Force Awakens? They go on about it like it was 50 years or more.

No idea where you’re getting the “50 years” from. Unless Han and Leia waited a really long time to have Kylo, about three decades looks reasonable for everyone involved.

Originally Posted by Metahuman1
Also the line "I came here to die." tends to suggest Luke is REALLY up there in years….

No, it doesn’t. That line says nothing about Luke’s age, only his intention to remain on the island for however many years it takes for him to die.

Originally Posted by Malifice
Luke Skywalker was 19 as of A New Hope making him around the age of 25 when return of the Jedi happens.

Twenty and twenty-three, according to the novelizations.

Originally Posted by Jayngfet
Which I say as a filmmaker who's constantly overthinking things and can see my own problems writ large.

Out of curiosity, what sorts of films do you make? And do you have any of your films online?

.

[Mightymosy]

Considering her plan would've worked perfectly if Poe had followed orders instead of trying some half-***ed scheme with so many points of failure it'd take a miracle for it to not **** up, I have no idea why you'd think this.

Poe literally got nearly everyone in the Resistance killed because he refused to follow orders. This is after his bomber scene where he got all the bombers killed after refusing to pull back. So he was demoted in the hopes of teaching him a lesson.

I won't discuss whether any "fantasy" military plans would have worked this way or the other right now, but we clearly can see that Holdo handled the social situation with Poe abysmally.
And not only Poe: The fact that Poe could effectively put up a mutiny shows that Holdo hasn't been able to convince everybody.

Consider the situation: Everyone in the rebellion is afraid of death, both personal death and death of the spirit of the rebellion. Everyone will soon be dead, if they don't do something about it.

It's entirely reasonable if people want to know from their superior what's going on then, and if they do in fact have a plan.

Now Holdo doesn't do anything to calm her crew.

She doesn't tell them the plan.

She doesn't even say "Don't worry. You kinda have to trust me with this one. I do have in fact have a plan but need to keep it secret."

All she does is have people (Poe) respect the chain of command.
Which spectacularily fails.
Also remember, these are not conscript soldiers. They are rebels. It is in their very nature that they disobey established authority to try to do what's right.

Then of course you can question who Holdo is being secretive to. I mean, the captains of the stealth ships probably were told the plan. Why not Poe? If there is someone you can trust not to be a traitor, it's probably the one who blew up the enemy's headquarter. Am I right?


Anybody have a link to that dialogue script, so that I can check whether I haven't missed anything?

[Blackhawk748]

Anybody have a link to that dialogue script, so that I can check whether I haven't missed anything?

No, you got it according to my memory. Hell im pretty sure Poe asks if there is a plan. Like, he doesnt even really ask what it is, he just wants to know that here is one.

[GloatingSwine]

Then of course you can question who Holdo is being secretive to. I mean, the captains of the stealth ships probably were told the plan. Why not Poe? If there is someone you can trust not to be a traitor, it's probably the one who blew up the enemy's headquarter. Am I right?

Remember that he just disobeyed orders to perform an unnecessary attack.

Also, Poe doesn't actually mutiny until he finds out the plan, when he decides that Holdo's run away plan is less heroic than his run away plan so he needs to mutiny in order to make it his version of running away that happens.

And then blows opsec by telling details of the plan to a team about to enter enemy territory when the enemy in question can read minds, and who he knows to be in the presence of a third party (even if he doesn't know who they found, he knows they were going to hire a mecenary hacker).

The "don't tell Poe" part of the plan is one of its soundest elements.

[Dr.Samurai]

No, you got it according to my memory. Hell im pretty sure Poe asks if there is a plan. Like, he doesnt even really ask what it is, he just wants to know that here is one.

The first time he asks her what the plan is, she throws the demotion in his face and refuses to tell him anything.

The second time he's like "come on, there's got to be a plan, we're running out of time" and she tells him they are going to ferry everyone away on the transport ships. Poe justifiably protests, saying they will be sitting ducks in front of the First Order and they'll be killed, and she orders him removed from her sight without explaining that the ships can be cloaked and they are all actually saved.

The "don't tell Poe" part of the plan is one of its soundest elements.

Leia: The transports can be cloaked. The First Order won't see us and we'll be safe on Crait while they blow up the Raddus.

Poe: Oh yeah, that actually works.

So no, we see in fact that it was Holdo's most grave mistake not to simply let Poe and the others know there was hope of survival. She's a leader. Of rebels. She needs to lead them. She doesn't, causes a mutiny, gets the majority of her people killed, and has to sacrifice herself to salvage the situation.

[Jayngfet]

Remember that he just disobeyed orders to perform an unnecessary attack.

Also, Poe doesn't actually mutiny until he finds out the plan, when he decides that Holdo's run away plan is less heroic than his run away plan so he needs to mutiny in order to make it his version of running away that happens.

That plan destroyed their last capital ship.

Which is the problem. They presently have no actual way to fight the first order because the first order presumably has more ships and the resistance has a whopping zero ships outside of a century old cargo hauler. The supplies at Crait didn't work and given their age and condition even when new it was a pipe dream to expect them to.

Poe's plan would have left the resistance with a fleet and an actual possibility of actually engaging the enemy, which is something you need to do to win a war.

[Forum Explorer]

It would have worked perfectly if we assume that the First Order never scans for cloaked ships...

Poe thought he was going to die. Poe thought everyone else was going to die. So arguably, Holdo got nearly everyone in the Resistance killed for not telling them there was hope and a plan. Poe didn't stage the mutiny by himself. Other desperate *REBELS* (you know, people who fight against authority) picked up arms against Holdo in order to save their own lives.

If Holdo had to give a briefing of the events in the movie, she has to explain the mutiny and justify why she didn't tell the crew of the ship that they had a plan to survive. Good luck with that...

Considering they didn't until they were explicitly told to, it seems like a pretty safe bet.

Poe is very popular and charismatic. It's no wonder that he was able to rally enough support to stage an unsuccessful mutiny. Holdo was able to reestablish control very quickly, even before Leia woke up.

I won't discuss whether any "fantasy" military planned would have worked this way or the other right now, but we clearly can see is that Holdo handled the social situation with Poe abysmally.
And not only Poe: The fact that Poe could effectively put up a mutiny shows that Holdo hasn't been able to convince everybody.

Consider the situation: Everyone in the rebellion is afraid of death, both personal and the spirit of the rebellion. Everyone will soon be dead, if they don't do something about it.

It's entirely reasonable if people want to know from their superior what's going on then, and if they do in fact have a plan.

Now Holdo doesn't do anything to calm her crew.

She doesn't tell them the plan.

She doesn't even say "Don't worry. You kinda have to trust me with this one. I do have in fact have a plan but need to keep it secret."

All she does ist have people respect the chain of command.
Which spectatularly fails.
Also remember, these are not conscript soldiers. They are rebels. It is in their very nature that they disobey established authority to try to do what's right.

Then of course you can question who Holdo is being secretive to. I mean, the captains of the stealth ships probably were told the plan. Why not Poe? If there is someone you can trust not to be a traitor, it's probably the one who blew up the enemy's headquarter. Am I right?


Anybody have a link to that dialogue script, so that I can check whether I haven't missed anything?

She pretty much says exactly this. Different words, but basically 'have faith in me. I do have a plan.'

As for why not telling Poe? Because he needed to learn a sharp lesson in respecting authority. He had just gotten a squadron killed by not following orders. They might not be proper soldiers but they are still military. If you can't trust people to follow orders, then they are a liability and should be removed from the Resistance.

Seriously, Poe's response to being treated as a normal fighter pilot was to go behind Holdo's back and enact his own plan without consulting any ranking authority. Not telling everyone is just basic security and StandOPs of pretty much every military. It doesn't help that Holdo's plan is inglorious and Poe is very much a glory seeker and extremely reckless.

And Poe screwed the pooch well before he even had an inkling of Holdo's plan. He refused to tell Holdo his plan because he knew she'd reject it. For good reason, because it was a bad plan. He then babbled Holdo's plan over to Finn who was currently in enemy territory with an unknown third party who is almost certainly a mercenary of some kind. Who hadn't actually been paid yet to boot. And that's all stuff Poe should know.

[GloatingSwine]

The first time he asks her what the plan is, she throws the demotion in his face and refuses to tell him anything.

The second time he's like "come on, there's got to be a plan, we're running out of time" and she tells him they are going to ferry everyone away on the transport ships. Poe justifiably protests, saying they will be sitting ducks in front of the First Order and they'll be killed, and she orders him removed from her sight without explaining that the ships can be cloaked and they are all actually saved.

If the commander of your fighter wing doesn't know that a transport could be cloaked, he didn't get demoted hard enough.

Which is the problem. They presently have no actual way to fight the first order because the first order presumably has more ships and the resistance has a whopping zero ships outside of a century old cargo hauler. The supplies at Crait didn't work and given their age and condition even when new it was a pipe dream to expect them to.

One cruiser which cannot offer battle to any of your enemy's ships even individually is not a relevant military asset.

The Resistance fleet was a white elephant, they couldn't do anything militarily useful with it and would need to abandon it in order to conduct actual resistance style guerilla warfare anyway.

[Jayngfet]

If the commander of your fighter wing doesn't know that a transport could be cloaked, he didn't get demoted hard enough.



One cruiser which cannot offer battle to any of your enemy's ships even individually is not a relevant military asset.

The Resistance fleet was a white elephant, they couldn't do anything militarily useful with it and would need to abandon it in order to conduct actual resistance style guerilla warfare anyway.

Star Destroyers deploy alone in a majority of cases. There's decades of material to back this up and all of the relevant data has been copied over to current canon and displayed as still being viable in one form or another.

That's the point of a Star Destroyer. It's not a ship of the line, it's an entire line in and of itself capable of independent operations and taking on entire lines of enemy ships alone.

[GloatingSwine]

Star Destroyers deploy alone in a majority of cases. There's decades of material to back this up and all of the relevant data has been copied over to current canon and displayed as still being viable in one form or another.

That's the point of a Star Destroyer. It's not a ship of the line, it's an entire line in and of itself capable of independent operations and taking on entire lines of enemy ships alone.

Yes, and the Resistance doesn't have any of those. They have one cruiser which has just had its fighter wing destroyed, they can't offer a standup fight to a single Star Destroyer, so why do you think the one heavy ship they do have, which can't do anything, is valuable?

[Blackhawk748]

Considering they didn't until they were explicitly told to, it seems like a pretty safe bet.

Which is more evidence of that stupid idiot ball getting tossed around. If you can scan for cloaked ships, why is that not part of your regular scanning routine?

Yes, and the Resistance doesn't have any of those. They have one cruiser which has just had its fighter wing destroyed, they can't offer a standup fight to a single Star Destroyer, so why do you think the one heavy ship they do have, which can't do anything, is valuable?

Because an MC 85 (which the Raddus is) can actually go toe to toe with a Star Destroyer? And even if it can't it still works as a mobile base, which will greatly assist in that guerilla style fighting, so you can, you know, leave the planet you're on.

[Mightymosy]

So can anyone post a link to the actual dialogue please? Appearantly there are different ideas what had been said and what hadn't.

[GloatingSwine]

Because an MC 85 (which the Raddus is) can actually go toe to toe with a Star Destroyer? And even if it can't it still works as a mobile base, which will greatly assist in that guerilla style fighting, so you can, you know, leave the planet you're on.

Trying to have "bases" has always been the Rebels' problem*.

They should be operating in autonomous cells with little to no centralisation in order not to present single points of failure. They should be fighting like the French Resistance or the Viet Cong, amorphous, hidden, and all but impossible to directly attack because the Empire doesn't know who they are.

This is the third Star Wars movie where the Rebels have nearly been annihilated because their super seekrit base has been rumbled. If Luke had been ten seconds later getting into position for his attack run the Rebels would have lost there and then, and the price of one Death Star would have been a cheap one to pay for it.



* One of them, they overrely on HUMINT sources as well, which is how the Emperor suckered them in at Endor and why they'll promote any tom **** or lando to general no matter their established loyalty to the cause or competency as command staff, and they fail to prepare any of their positions for serious defence. Where were the hidden AT-AT ditches on Hoth, why no heavy anti-armour given that they must know the Empire's armour resources and have engaged them before at Scarif, and why did Luke Skywalker lead an air assault from the only direction the enemy could shoot back?

[Lethologica]

On another topic: anyone up for discussing the Admiral Holdo character?
I can't grasp what they invented her for. If they wanted a rebel character for a heroic sacrifice, Leia would have been a good choice, considering her actress sadly died.
Barring that, why not use Admiral Ackbar?
I don't understand why they introduced her character, just to have her die anyway.

The short answer is that yes, everyone has been up for discussing Holdo and did so for possibly the majority of the last thread; and she was introduced to be someone that Poe (and the audience) could mistakenly mistrust as part of reconsidering the "get in a plane and blow something up" and "sneak aboard the enemy superweapon and pull off some improbable sabotage" modes of heroism. Leia and Ackbar are not believable in that role because the audience implicitly trusts those characters (to the extent that the typical viewer remembers or cares about Ackbar), so a new character was needed.

To me it comes off as contrived and anvilicious. The meaning of the plot is obvious and relentless, but how the story gets there is tortured and full of pitfalls for the audience's suspension of disbelief. And once again the movie is caught staring at the shadow of the previous movies at the expense of being its own story - Rian Johnson basically spends an entire movie trying to justify making a new and different Star Wars movie instead of just making a new and different Star Wars movie. The problem with making a major plot thread about how the last-ditch attack on the enemy base isn't always the heroic thing to do is that you're still mostly telling a story about a last-ditch attack on the enemy base. It's generally more effective to just tell a different story in the first place. (And then Holdo saves the day with a last-ditch attack on the enemy base anyway, just with way less setup and way more disruptive implications.)

[Jayngfet]

Trying to have "bases" has always been the Rebels' problem*.

They should be operating in autonomous cells with little to no centralisation in order not to present single points of failure. They should be fighting like the French Resistance or the Viet Cong, amorphous, hidden, and all but impossible to directly attack because the Empire doesn't know who they are.

The French Resistance only worked because they had large traditional military structures backing them elsewhere and the Vietcong only worked because their strategy revolved around the enemy being willing to pull out of foreign territory after morale and time loss.

The Empire will never pull out of planets it occupies on such a large scale and the Rebels do not have large traditional armies able to send them supplies.

[Mightymosy]

Considering they didn't until they were explicitly told to, it seems like a pretty safe bet.

Poe is very popular and charismatic. It's no wonder that he was able to rally enough support to stage an unsuccessful mutiny. Holdo was able to reestablish control very quickly, even before Leia woke up.



She pretty much says exactly this. Different words, but basically 'have faith in me. I do have a plan.'

Ok, then, but I kinda would like the exact dialogue in order to discuss this - there seem to be different opinions...

As for why not telling Poe? Because he needed to learn a sharp lesson in respecting authority. He had just gotten a squadron killed by not following orders. They might not be proper soldiers but they are still military. If you can't trust people to follow orders, then they are a liability and should be removed from the Resistance.

So you think this was a good time for that lesson?
I don't know, if I led the last couple 100s of desperate people with F*CKING GET OUT OF THIS SH*T ALIVE as my primary objective, I would have different priorities....

Also note that Holdo does neither of these things: She does not tell Poe the plan in order to persuade him with reason, and she doesn't throw him out of the resistance or even put him into a prison cell either, to make sure by force that the "hotshot" doesn't do anything stupid.
Instead she point to her being higher rank and for him to shut up.
And that fails - for any crap I have given Rian Johnson, I think that one at least was really believable. Heck, I would have done the same as Poe and tried something else. (If I was heroic, that is. My actual me would have tried to run away, like Finn)

But I admit, I may remember it wrong, so I'd be happy if we got the actual texts.

Seriously, Poe's response to being treated as a normal fighter pilot was to go behind Holdo's back and enact his own plan without consulting any ranking authority. Not telling everyone is just basic security and StandOPs of pretty much every military. It doesn't help that Holdo's plan is inglorious and Poe is very much a glory seeker and extremely reckless.

And Poe screwed the pooch well before he even had an inkling of Holdo's plan. He refused to tell Holdo his plan because he knew she'd reject it. For good reason, because it was a bad plan. He then babbled Holdo's plan over to Finn who was currently in enemy territory with an unknown third party who is almost certainly a mercenary of some kind. Who hadn't actually been paid yet to boot. And that's all stuff Poe should know.

Again, I don't know if such "StandOPs" are a good idea for the situation they are currently in.

Hell, after Holdo was being such a d*ckhead to Poe, and Rose told the audience how the Resistance appearantly had to electroshock quite a couple of people who tried to desert, I wondered why I should root for this side anymore......aren't they supposed to be the good people, fighting for personal freedom and peace?

[zimmerwald1915]

and the Vietcong only worked because their strategy revolved around the enemy being willing to pull out of foreign territory after morale and time loss.

FWIW, the Vietcong also had the material and logistical support of a superpower and a friendly neighbor working in concert, and still managed to get themselves smashed before their political strategy could bear fruit. It was the NVA that brought that strategy to its conclusion.

The Resistance in TFA is in a position similar to the Vietcong, right up until the Republic is decapitated. The Resistance in TLJ is in a far more vulnerable position than the Vietcong ever was, inasmuch as nobody ever nuked Moscow or Hanoi.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

And canonically how many decades happened between the end of Return Of The Jedi and the start of The Force Awakens? They go on about it like it was 50 years or more.

Luke was born in 19 BBY, RotJ was in 4 ABY, and TLJ is in 34 ABY, so Luke was 19 in ANH, 23 in RotJ, and 53 in TLJ.

If the commander of your fighter wing doesn't know that a transport could be cloaked, he didn't get demoted hard enough.

Nobody knew those transports could be cloaked, because the fact that they could be cloaked (and that the First Order could scan for them) was pulled out of thin air.

In canon material, both Disney Canon and Legends, cloaking devices are rare and expensive and make a ship entirely undetectable to normal vision and all sensors except gravity-based ones (which are also rare and expensive). In the movies, the only mention of them is in ESB when Officer Nemet said of the Millennium Falcon, "No ship that small has a cloaking device!" and everyone stops looking around as if they expect the Falcon to now be invisible. Nowhere is it implied that any of this has changed between the OT and the ST, and since they specifically call out the Supremacy's hyperdrive tracker as being new and experimental, we can be pretty sure nothing has changed.

Taking all canon into account, whatever those Resistance transports were doing wasn't cloaking, and even if it had been, the transports just happening to have cloaking devices and the First Order just happening to be able to scan for them is ridiculously implausible. Even just taking the movies into account, the transports were definitely smaller than the Falcon (I'd say about a third of the size? Hard to be sure.) and so shouldn't have been cloak-able.

I hate to keep hammering the "Disney can't be bothered to read their own damn material" point, but either all of the half-assed Canon explanations to make sense of the things in the ST that didn't make sense on screen are official, or nothing in Canon matters and they'll ignore it at their leisure, they can't have it both ways.

If I were Poe and were told that everyone was going to hop onto a dozen or so transports and try to run away in full sight of all the First Order ships, my reaction would be "Go on, pull the other one." If I were told that these transports just happened to all have incredibly rare and expensive cloaking devices on board, I'd either be suspicious that Holdo was outright lying to me or really ticked off that a bunch of cloaked ships were just sitting there unused--as opposed to, say, sticking them on the Resistance's far too large, ridiculously slow and vulnerable bombers, or at least doing something useful with them.

[zimmerwald1915]

Taking all canon into account, whatever those Resistance transports were doing wasn't cloaking

No indeed. Think stealth, not cloak; the transports simply didn't show up on ordinary FO scans (whatever they are - apparently they don't include optical scanning or even the Mark I eyeball), but could be detected with other scans (whatever they are). I know there isn't supposed to be stealth in space, but this is the movie with Those Bombers in it. Any expectation of realism in terms of space combat should be dashed further to dust than Alderaan at this point.

[GloatingSwine]

Luke was born in 19 BBY, RotJ was in 4 ABY, and TLJ is in 34 ABY, so Luke was 19 in ANH, 23 in RotJ, and 53 in TLJ.



Nobody knew those transports could be cloaked, because the fact that they could be cloaked (and that the First Order could scan for them) was pulled out of thin air.

In canon material, both Disney Canon and Legends, cloaking devices are rare and expensive and make a ship entirely undetectable to normal vision and all sensors except gravity-based ones (which are also rare and expensive). In the movies, the only mention of them is in ESB when Officer Nemet said of the Millennium Falcon, "No ship that small has a cloaking device!" and everyone stops looking around as if they expect the Falcon to now be invisible. Nowhere is it implied that any of this has changed between the OT and the ST, and since they specifically call out the Supremacy's hyperdrive tracker as being new and experimental, we can be pretty sure nothing has changed.

Except for the new and experimental things that obviously have changed, like hyperspace tracking and small ship "cloaking" (which is actually radar stealth not invisibility).

So actually things have changed and they're not just implied but explicitly shown to have changed.

[Kantaki]

Hell, after Holdo was being such a d*ckhead to Poe, and Rose told the audience how the Resistance appearantly had to electroshock quite a couple of people who tried to desert, I wondered why I should root for this side anymore......aren't they supposed to be the good people, fighting for personal freedom and peace?

If I recall correctly it was Rose herself who electrocuted potential deserters into staying.

Because after her sister being killed by Poe's idiocy and the terrible design of those deathtraps* heroically sacrificing herself she appearently decided that anyone unwilling to do the same for the Resistance's glorious defeat should me dragged to their inevitable doom kicking and screaming.
Insofar as unconscious people can kick and scream.

*I mean those things combined the speed of a Y-Wing with damaged engines with the armor of a TIE. One of the old ones. That spend the last decades next to Luke's ship.
Okay, they look nice, but that's a bad criterion too choose your weapons on.
At least ducttape some engines and additional hull plates on those things.

[Jayngfet]

Maybe I'm misremembering but I don't recall the shuttles not having cloaking devices. What I remember is Holdo saying that the first order was only scanning for capital ships. Which is worse because they somehow simply aren't looking for any kind of fighter attack or escape pods despite it being obvious, and they somehow missed an entire planet the empire already knew about based on books Rian Johnson himself contributed to.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

No indeed. Think stealth, not cloak

Except for the new and experimental things that obviously have changed, like hyperspace tracking and small ship "cloaking" (which is actually radar stealth not invisibility).

So actually things have changed and they're not just implied but explicitly shown to have changed.

Oh, I'm well aware that it just ended up as stealth onscreen, and only debatably "stealth" if it's that easy to overcome. But (A) "cloaking device" has a defined meaning in Star Wars, and what those transports had wasn't it and (B) while "Oh, maybe our transports having cloaking devices" might be good enough to justify Holdo's plan, as the post I quoted was talking about, "Oh, maybe our transports have easily-overcome stealth systems that still leave them visible to the naked eye" really isn't.

In the case of the hyperspace tracker they explicitly say that it's a new, experimental, game-changing technology and have Rose and Finn technobabble about it. In the case of the cloaked--excuse me, stealthed--ships...nada. It's apparently a sufficiently well-known technology that rather than being some surprising ace in the hole for the Resistance, it's something that the First Order has installed countermeasures for on their ships and that they can defeat at the press of a button.

And while banking on the First Order being incompetent isn't a terrible idea, 'cause they are, staking the entire survival of the Resistance on that plan when the transports are one button press away from being blown out of the sky once they leave the Raddus means it's pretty justified for Poe to find that to be an unacceptably risky plan even if he were told about the stealth ships which he was not.

[Jayngfet]

Except again, those aren't stealth ships. Holdo's plan was explicitly that the First Order would simply not track those ships for some reason.

[GloatingSwine]

Oh, I'm well aware that it just ended up as stealth onscreen, and only debatably "stealth" if it's that easy to overcome. But (A) "cloaking device" has a defined meaning in Star Wars,

No it doesn't.

The phrase had been used once onscreen and the only context it could possibly apply to is "ship is no longer on sensors". Which radar stealth would also apply to.

"Cloaking device" has a defined meaning in Star Trek, it is important not to confuse the two.

[Jayngfet]

No it doesn't.

The phrase had been used once onscreen and the only context it could possibly apply to is "ship is no longer on sensors". Which radar stealth would also apply to.

"Cloaking device" has a defined meaning in Star Trek, it is important not to confuse the two.

Except again, it also has defined meanings in Star Wars, those ships weren't cloaked, and this discussion is ultimately meaningless because there was no actual plan to keep those ships hidden beyond "Well maybe they won't look for us or notice anything has changed".