Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End

[LudDavenport]

Are baneblade chassis tanks good this edition? I saw them in cheese's battle reports and now other battle reports. It just makes me wonder if it is better or worse then its points in russes, esspecially since you need to take a specific detachment for it... rather then being able to fit 15 russes into a standard brigade.

[LeSwordfish]

Are baneblade chassis tanks good this edition? I saw them in cheese's battle reports and now other battle reports. It just makes me wonder if it is better or worse then its points in russes, esspecially since you need to take a specific detachment for it... rather then being able to fit 15 russes into a standard brigade.

If you expect to run into anything else super-heavy or Lord Of War, a Shadowsword is the best model in the game. I believe the others are reasonably useful, but run into the issue that you didn't build a shadowsword, so your opponent, who did build a shadowsword, can just take your Baneblade/Banehammer/Etc off the board straight away.

[Cheesegear]

Are baneblade chassis tanks good this edition?

As part of a Supreme Command, they're very good - especially Cadian and Catachan ones.
Alternatively, take them in a SHAD, and use Firstborn Pride on it every single turn.

If Leman Russes are firing twice (which they should be), the only remotely comparable Octoblade tank against Infantry, is the Stormlord. However, against non-Vehicle targets, you're playing Guard, and should have no problem dealing with Infantry. However, the main draw of the Stormlord is that it transports 40 dudes; Which actually translates to porcupining with x6 Heavy Weapons Squads. Or, 18 models with room to shoot with two more Characters - if you didn't know, six Heavy Weapon Teams is an entire Spearhead. Or, you use it to Transport a mess-ton of Bullgryns, Priests and/or Crusaders - with Celestine. Either way, running a Stormlord means running a very specialised list.

In order (worst to best) against target(s) with more than 3+ Wounds;
Banehammer: Kind of 'meh' against everything, which actually reads 'Take Leman Russes instead' (but only if they're shooting twice).
Stormsword: Surpassed by the Banesword. -4, Ignores Cover. Great. Ignores Cover doesn't mean anything. Except that the Banesword is S14, and does 3-6 Damage, whilst a Stormsword only re-rolls 1s for Damage.
Baneblade and Hellhammer: Both are hamstrung by the Demolisher Cannon that they have to pay 40 Points for. But, their main turret weapon doing 3D6 shots helps a lot. Remember your Supreme Commands. Having two weapons is actually a big help on one model. But, you do pay for the Demolisher Cannon, but, it's also exactly the same 'turret' as what a Leman Russ could get anyway.
Doomhammer: Strictly less powerful than the next two, they make up for it by carrying at least 3 Heavy Weapon Squads. You're paying 30 Points for that Transport capacity, so you'd better be using it.
Banesword: This one is stupidly strong for taking out units of models with multiple Wounds each. It will always drop a 3-Wound model every time. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot of use for a Banesword in 8th Ed., because units that it's really strong against...Don't really exist. It's still good against pretty much everything, though. Its single-target burst damage is surpassed in every way by the Shadowsword. The Banesword isn't bad. In fact, it's really, really good. The only thing wrong with the Banesword, is that the Shadowsword exists.
Shadowsword: Best single-target weapon in the game, where each, individual shot, does 2D6 Damage. Roll hard. Even on average it has one of the the highest Damage in the game (except for a Fort, I think), and using buffs and re-rolls only makes it even better. Vostroyan ones have been known to make people cry - yes, literally. There are very, very, very, few reasons not to have a Shadowsword over any of the others. The only two to really consider are the Stormlord or Doomhammer...But that's 'cause you'd be specifically building around them.

So, on a Damage-per-Point ratio, we know that Octoblades (except for Banehammers) are worth taking over Leman Russes, even when they shoot twice.

Four of the Octoblades are ~400 Points, whilst the other four are closer to 450.
Let's be generous, and say that Leman Russes are 150 each (they're not, but that will come into play, soon). <450, but close enough to make the comparison.

Octoblade; T8, 26W, 3+ Save.
Russes (x3); T8, 36W, 3+ Save - and your opponent has to divide fire.

Three Russes are more survivable, though.

If Russes move, they can't shoot twice, and lose a point of BS...Making them basically worthless.
Octoblades can move around the board, can't be stuck in combat, and, if they want to be, they can still fire their guns anyway. This might matter. It might not. What's the rest of your army doing?

Leman Russes gain Objective Secured whilst in a Spearhead. Cool. Use the at least 50 Points you have spare, to put in an Company Commander and you're done, or use more points to make a Tank Commander, a fourth model with the <Leman Russ> Keyword, also Objective Secured. Since Russes don't want to move anyway, they make okay (not good) Objective Holders. Also, Russes can take Orders.

Octoblades are only viable in Supreme Commands (except Vostroyan ones, that eat 1CP per turn). That means taking extra Officers or Psykers...Oh noes...

At the end of the day, whether an Octoblade is better than x3 Leman Russes, depends entire on what the rest of your army is... and only if the Russes are shooting twice.

But, is an Octoblade better than an Imperial Knight?
Yes and no. Sometimes.

Imperium, Super-Heavy Detachment (+3 CPs)
(W) Roboute Guilliman - 385 Points (Ultramarines; Adept of the Codex; +3 CPs)
Shadowsword; Twin Heavy Bolter, Volcano Cannon, Adamantium Tracks - 404 Points (Vostroyan)
Shadowsword; Twin Heavy Bolter, Volcano Cannon, Adamantium Tracks - 404 Points (Vostroyan)

Total: 1193 Points | +6 CPs

You could replace Guilliman with a Warglaive. But Warglaives are terrible, and Guilliman gives an extra 3 CPs with 5+ get-'em-backs.

[Brookshw]

Imperium, Super-Heavy Detachment (+3 CPs)
(W) Roboute Guilliman - 385 Points (Ultramarines; Adept of the Codex; +3 CPs)
Shadowsword; Twin Heavy Bolter, Volcano Cannon, Adamantium Tracks - 404 Points (Vostroyan)
Shadowsword; Twin Heavy Bolter, Volcano Cannon, Adamantium Tracks - 404 Points (Vostroyan)

Total: 1193 Points | +6 CPs

You are an evil, evil man.

What's the verdict on extra sponsons?

[LudDavenport]

*Really helpful analysis*

This was basically what I was hoping for when I asked. A few questions.

Do shadowswords turn games into rocket tag?(oh, you brought a one, and I brought one... well, game goes to who ever gets turn one, except you have LOS blocking terrain...)
Are ShaSwo(not going to keep typing it) so good they are rude to take(sorta like girly man)?
If you are taking one, is bringing russes advisable to benefit from opponents AT being drawn to the giant death tank?
Given HWT still suffer from moving if their ride moves, Is it assumed the loaded up stormlord is just providing safety to the HWT's it is carrying? Or is the sheer cheap volume of fire going to make up for shooting BS 5+?

But, is an Octoblade better than an Imperial Knight?
Yes and no. Sometimes.

Hmm... seems like knights are more survivable(5++ that is a 4++ for 1CMP), but have a lot less dakka?
Is taking a knight+Octoblade+min IG Brigade a thing people do?

[LansXero]

game goes to who ever gets turn one,

More often than not, yes

[LudDavenport]

More often than not, yes

I actually partially made an account to start posting here to join in on the earlier discussion about reducing alpha strike. I was thinking of battle tech with alternating activation movement then a shared shooting phase were damage only takes effect at the end of the phase. Or, X-wing with a attribute based priority activation... which would require revamping the whole system. Just some thoughts.

edit: Also, a list for the Shadowsward+Knight Crusader. I will admit it is not super inventive, but there ain't much wiggle room between knight+sword+brigade. Still 13 CMP.

Spoiler: List

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Questor Impirialus, Super Heavy Auxillia Detachment(+0CP)
Knight Crusader; Avenger Gattling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm missile pod, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber - 528 points

Astra Militarum, Supreme Comand Detachment(Vostroyan) (+1 CPs)
HQ:
Primarus Psyker; - 46 points (Vostroyan)
Primarus Psyker; - 46 points (Vostroyan)
Tank Commander; Punisher Gattling Cannon, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter - 197 points (Vostroyan)
Lord Of War:
Shadowsword; 3xTwin Heavy Bolters, 2xLas Cannons, Storm Bolter, Volcano Cannon, Adamantium Tracks - 474 Points (Vostroyan)

Astra Militarum, Brigade Detachment (?opinions?)(+9CP)

Spoiler: Standard IG min cost Brigade of value

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HQ:
Company Commander; - 30 points
Company Commander; - 30 points
Company Commander; - 30 points
Troops:
Infantry Squad(x10); - 40 points
Infantry Squad(x10); - 40 points
Infantry Squad(x10); - 40 points
Infantry Squad(x10); - 40 points
Infantry Squad(x10); - 40 points
Infantry Squad(x10); - 40 points
Elites:
Tech-Priest Engiseer; - 42 points
Ratlings(x5); Sniper Rifles - 45 points
Ratlings(x5); Sniper Rifles - 45 points
Fast Attack:
Scout Sentinel; Autocannon - 47 points
Scout Sentinel; Autocannon - 47 points
Scout Sentinel; Autocannon - 47 points
Heavy Support:
Heavy Weapons Squad(x3); 3xMortars - 33 points
Heavy Weapons Squad(x3); 3xMortars - 33 points
Heavy Weapons Squad(x3); 3xMortars - 33 points

1993 points total, +10 CP hmmm...
Might not actually be a good idea, going to have to try it though. Not sure what regiment the IG should be. Like... Taleren for the scouts+ambush? Mordian to have +1 LD and better overwatch as bubble wrap? Cadian to let the stationary HWT&Sentinals reroll 1s? It just is there to be cheap CP and objetive holding.

Also, again, thinking of what to make warlord. a CC to sit in the back and chill with the HWT out of LOS? Hand the aquila to another one? General opinions.

[Forum Explorer]

This was basically what I was hoping for when I asked. A few questions.

Do shadowswords turn games into rocket tag?(oh, you brought a one, and I brought one... well, game goes to who ever gets turn one, except you have LOS blocking terrain...)
Are ShaSwo(not going to keep typing it) so good they are rude to take(sorta like girly man)?

Kinda, if your opponent has a super heavy. Being able to just straight up remove Mortarion, Magnus, or even just a Knight is devastating to your opponent. And if the Shadowsword is basically all your anti-tank, well burning one down is very possible.

No, they are a hard counter unit. Against Titanic units they are godlike. Against smaller tanks, they are merely great. But against lots of infantry? Well then they are pretty mediocre. Like Cheesegear said, they only really start to come into play against models with 3+ wounds. So if you are facing an infantry heavy army, they can struggle. But the rest of your army can do that instead.

[Blackhawk748]

Hey Blackhawk, what would you recommend for a 1500 pt ork army?

Since we dont have any Stratagems (no, i dont count the one in CA) i go with what i always go with:

A Vanguard of Kommandoes, an Outrider of Stormboyz, and a Spearhead of Mek Guns.

You have SUA, some fast moving Boyz and a bunch of Anti Tank in your Guns. Conversely:

Green Tide supported by Mek Guns.

Basically, you can actually build Orks organically again, as Boyz are legitimately good, just dont bother with the Shootas.

[Cheesegear]

What's the verdict on extra sponsons?

Octoblades cost enough points as-is. Spread your points (and your weapons) out over more models.

Do shadowswords turn games into rocket tag? (oh, you brought a one, and I brought one... well, game goes to who ever gets turn one

Only if everyone is bad.
What actually happens, is that it forces players to have a way of reliably dealing 26+ Damage to one target. You could do the same thing with SUA-ing Death Company with Thunder Hammers. Or Craftworlds can delete the Shadowsword in one turn, using SUA-ing Wraithguard. Or a Lord of Skulls can use Warptime and push your **** in. Or Drukhari triple Ravagers. Or Ultramarines with 12+ Lascannons. Or Dark Angel Black Knights Turn 1 Charge. Or...Anything that's good.

If literally everyone in your meta plays Imperium, and literally everyone's response to a Shadowsword, is to have a Shadowsword of their own, then your meta is bad. And toxic. And bad.

Are ShaSwo(not going to keep typing it) so good they are rude to take(sorta like girly man)?

Anything is rude if your opponent can't deal with it. You may as well bring 100+ Poxwalkers to the table when your opponent has brought nothing but Lascannons. What difference does it make, if the game is lopsided from the start? Regardless of who takes what models?

But Shadowswords aren't even good. There's a reason that nobody takes them. Because the meta isn't actually filled with models that have 3 or more Wounds... Basically since Razorbacks died. Actually and realistically making the Stormlord the 'most useful' Octoblade tank. Unfortunately, it's barely comparable to 3 Leman Russes against its viable targets. So, none of them, really, are 'rude' to take. Because none of them are really that scary, unless it's a direct response to someone being a ****.

Magnus, Mortarion and a Renegade Knight with double Gatlings. It's a real Detachment that exists for <Chaos>.
Response; Guilliman and double Shadowswords.

At that point, those two players are playing a different game than the rest of their meta, and the response to such lists is simply what the real meta is doing anyway. Spamming a ****-ton of points-efficient Infantry with anti-tank weapons (Wraithguard, Dark Reapers, Devastators, etc.).

If you are taking one, is bringing russes advisable to benefit from opponents AT being drawn to the giant death tank?

Depends on your opponent's army. If your opponent is running full Infantry (like most people in 8th Ed.), then they wont even care about the Shadowsword. Or a Leman Russ.
If your meta has turned into rocket tag, then your Shadowsword has already died on Turn 1, and it was a waste of 400+ points, and you were better off with Russes and having your opponent divide their fire.

If you have two Octoblades, you'd end up ramping the quality of your meta something fierce, or, you wouldn't get games. Most casual players will find that the latter happens.

Is it assumed the loaded up stormlord is just providing safety to the HWT's it is carrying? Or is the sheer cheap volume of fire going to make up for shooting BS 5+?

Why not both?

Is taking a knight+Octoblade+min IG Brigade a thing people do?

No.

[Wraith]

So I might be ~9 months late to the party, but I finally got around to playing my first game of 8th edition 40k. I have to say, it went a lot better than I expected.

Lists as follows, though approximating the Orks as I don't remember their specific wargear. We played Power Points because we couldn't be bothered to work it out the long way, and we both wanted to try out some unusual stuff that wouldn't have been affordable in matched points:

Spoiler: Black Templars

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Warlord - Chaplain in Terminator Armour
= Combi-plasma
Warlord Trait: +1 Attack

Crusader Squad
+ 5 marines
+ 8x Chainswords
+ 1x Thunderhammer
+ 1x Power Fist
+ Transport: Razorback
+ Twin-Linked Assault Cannons
+ HK missile
= 3x identical squads thereof

Chaplain
+ Jump Pack

Assault Squad
+5 Marines
+2 Plasma Pistols
+Power Fist & Combat Shield

Ironclad Dreadnought
+ 2x Heavy Flamers
+ 2x HK Missiles

Total: 74pp

Spoiler: Orks

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Warlord - Warboss
+ Power Klaw
Walord Trait: +1 wound

Weirdboy
Powers: Smite and Warpath

10x Ork Nobs
+ Big Choppas

20x Ork Boys
+ Nob with Kustom Klaw
+ 2x Big Shootas
= 3x identical squads thereof

10x Ork Boys
+ Nob with Kustom Klaw
(Were going to be Grots, but who in their right mind has 40 painted Grots just hanging around?)

1x 'Ardened Battle Wagon

All in all, it was a much closer game than either of us were expecting.

Spoiler: Super-quick high-and-low-lights

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There was a lot of terrain which was more troublesome for me than my opponent. Shooting at 20 Orks with the near-constant benefit of cover was a pain, and my 3 Razorbacks spent the entirety of the game within 3" of where they deployed until the last turn, where one of them made a surprisingly serpentine move to sit on an objective that we had both forgotten about. It did work out for me in the end when my Ironclad managed to squeeze between two buildings and forced 40 Ork Boys to come at him only 5 at a time instead of as a huge blob; he tarpitted almost 3 times his number of points for 3 turns and stopped them from getting supremacy on an objective.

On the other hand, the dice went against me more often than not. 4 of my 5 HK Missiles missed (50-50 is a lie!), every combat went on at least a turn longer than it ought to have, and my opponent had a couple of moments of spectacular luck that almost turned the game for him. He managed a turn-2 charge by 'accidentally' rolling an 11" charge, and I would have won Kingslayer had he not succeeded two 5+ saves with double-6's and then killing my Chaplain in the final turn when I snake-eyed the saves.

There was a heroic moment in turn 3 when my opponent attempted to Smite the ragged remnants of the Assault Squad, only for them to Abhor The Witch in the only successful 4+ roll I made in the entire game. That allowed me to charge his weirdboy and cap the objective that he was lurking around, when otherwise it would have been a disaster.

Turns out I also need to get LOTS of practice at eyeballing distances - twice I moved a unit away from a combat in order to set up a round of shooting and a charge, only to have misjudged the distance and leave myself open to a follow up, which ultimately cost me First Blood and Slay the Warlord.

Final result:
Black Templars: 4 Tactical Objectives, 2 objectives held (10 points)
Orks: 4 Tactical Objectives, 1 objective held, First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord (10 points)

Frankly, watching 20 Crusader Marines evaporate in 2 game turns and then my Warlord get completely stone-walled by Ork armour made it seem like I was being comfortably overrun, but a last-ditch attempt to grab objectives just about saved the day.

[Cheesegear]

but I finally got around to playing my first game of 8th edition 40k.

Welcome to the party.

Warlord - Chaplain in Terminator Armour
= Combi-plasma
Warlord Trait: +1 Attack

...That's...Weird. The first half of the Trait you've picked, gives you re-rolls to Charge. Which means that you don't really need it. You would've been better off with the one that gives +1 To Hit and Wound enemy <Characters> in the Fight phase...Considering how the game ended, that could've been a better choice? But also +1W and FNP (6+) is also really useful. Again, having your Warlord take Wounds isn't always the best.

Lessons learned.

Crusader Squad
+ 1x Thunderhammer
+ 1x Power Fist

Oof. But, Power Points, I guess.

Chaplain
+ Jump Pack

Playing Power Points, without a Power Fist? For shame.

Assault Squad
+5 Marines
+2 Plasma Pistols
+Power Fist & Combat Shield

There's a blast from the past. You haven't played in a while.

All in all, it was a much closer game than either of us were expecting.

...And now you know.

Turns out I also need to get LOTS of practice at eyeballing distances

Why? Don't you just pre-measure?

Frankly, watching 20 Crusader Marines evaporate in 2 game turns...

That isn't really surprising at all. Hence why Land Raider Crusaders exist.

[Wraith]

Lessons learned.

"Probably, yes" to all of the above, but we threw it all together pretty quickly and I didn't feel like reading through all my books again just for the sake of +1 somewhere instead of somewhere else. I just went with the simple math: "More attacks means more dead orks". If I were optimising properly, then I wouldn't have played Black Templars, after all.

Playing Power Points, without a Power Fist? For shame.

The model I have is a throwback to the days when BT Chaplains could take Terminator Honours, a Crozius and a hand-weapon and just go to town on a unit by himself, and I love my conversion - who is dual-wielding a pair of Crozius - too much to pull it apart. I have no regrets.

There's a blast from the past. You haven't played in a while.

2 years, at the very least, and they weren't particularly up to snuff back then. But it didn't work out as badly as you might imagine. What's the meta for them nowadays, anyway?

Why? Don't you just pre-measure?

Arrogance. I didn't know that I didn't know, until it was too late. That's why it stopped happening after Turn 2 and I had learned my lesson

That isn't really surprising at all. Hence why Land Raider Crusaders exist.

The Ork player had almost 3 weapons that hit above S5, I felt that taking my traditional MSU-Black Templars-in-Land Raiders would have been unfair.

...And now you know.

I honestly like this about the new edition. At first it's disheartening to see so many models taken off every turn, but it's a revelation to realise that it really doesn't matter all that much.
Next time, now that I have realised that I can get away with some casualties like never before, I might even be brave enough to try out my Grey Knights - after being in storage for so long my Space Marines were mostly broken and dusty and thus a sad sight to see, but my lovingly curated Knights might just be the project that I need in order to get back into the game more often.

[Cheesegear]

If I were optimising properly, then I wouldn't have played Black Templars, after all.

I lol'd. Self-awareness is great. Especially in someone who hasn't played in a while.

and I love my conversion - who is dual-wielding a pair of Crozius - too much to pull it apart.

I notice a distinct lack of pictures to go with this description.

But it didn't work out as badly as you might imagine. What's the meta for them nowadays, anyway?

The meta...For Assault Marines?
...Ditch every single one of them, pick up a Vanguard Detachment of Blood Angels and run Death Company.

At first it's disheartening to see so many models taken off every turn, but it's a revelation to realise that it really doesn't matter all that much.

It also means that games - especially Fight phases - go much quicker, and getting tabled by Turn 4 in low point games is a fairly common occurance.

Next time, now that I have realised that I can get away with some casualties like never before...

If you're playing Black Templars - and especially ones on foot - look into Chaplain Grimaldus and Primaris/Chapter/Company Ancients, and for Emperor's sake, look into Only in Death Does Duty End and Honour the Chapter. Playing Only in Death... in your game would've been extremely rude if you'd had the Command Points for it at the time.

I might even be brave enough to try out my Grey Knights...

Bear in mind, that GK Terminators are currently terrible. If you're an old man from 5th Ed., back from when Terminators/Paladins were hot, you'll be...Sad. If that's the army that you still want to play.
GKs are all about the Falchions (remember how they were trash and nobody took them, ever) now.

[Wraith]

I lol'd. Self-awareness is great. Especially in someone who hasn't played in a while.

I'm under no illusion that Black Templars have ever been "good" even in their glorious 4th edition days, but I keep up with the recent trends despite being out of practice.

I notice a distinct lack of pictures to go with this description.

I've posted it before - didn't think anyone would be so interested in seeing a 4th edition hack-job again

Spoiler: Hilariously old cell-phone photo

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The meta...For Assault Marines?

Eh, pretty much what I expected. Still, I like them for a fluffy reason; if we're still happy to undertake that "Great Crusade" stuff from 10,000 years ago, then by the God-Emperor we can be happy to run 5th edition wargear too!

If you're playing Black Templars - and especially ones on foot - look into Chaplain Grimaldus [...and...] for Emperor's sake, look into Only in Death Does Duty End and Honour the Chapter.

I have Grimaldus and ample - probably excessive - Land Raiders, I just chose not to use them in my first game in ~40 months for simplicities' sake. Thank you for the recommendation, though.

As for Honour the Chapter, that is why I had ragged remains of an Assault Squad and 2 objectives, rather than one which had been overrun by twice their number of Boyz who would have capped immediately afterwards. I'm starting to get the hang of it again, I just need practice

If you're an old man from 5th Ed., back from when Terminators/Paladins were hot, you'll be...Sad. If that's the army that you still want to play.

I am an old, old man, but that just means that my Grey Knights are actually 4th Edition Daemon-Hunters in disguise, so I'm nicely stocked up on Strike Squads (and Assassins, for some reason, but we probably won't have to worry about that...)

[Cheesegear]

I'm under no illusion that Black Templars have ever been "good" even in their glorious 4th edition days, but I keep up with the recent trends despite being out of practice.

July, 2017;
Black Templars: "Holy crap. Have you seen Black Templars? High Marshal Helbrecht and Chaplain Grimaldus are so good. Holy **** how good are Land Raider Crusaders now!? Hell yeah, kids. Let me tell you 'bout my Hurricane Bolters and Twin Assault Cannons. Re-roll to CHAAARGE!!!"

August, 2017;
Chaos Space Marines: "Let me tell you 'bout World Eaters and attacking three times in the same phase. Seen Warptime yet? Do you know about Lords of Skulls?"
Black Templars: "Least we still have Land Raider Crusaders."

December, 2017;
Blood Angels: "DEATH COMPANY AND SANGUINARY GUARD. YAH BOO SUX!!!"
Chapter Approved: "Twin Assault Cannons and Hurricane Bolters are too scary."
Black Templars: "Not the shelf. No. No. Anything but the shelf...Nooo...."
Imperial Fists: "...at least you got off the shelf."

Spoiler: Hilariously old cell-phone photo

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Rad.

[LansXero]

Quick question:

Can Agressors shoot their grenade launchers AND bolter gauntlets at the same time? Can they shoot the grenades twice if they dont move?

I dont know where to find the answer, codex doesnt clarify much.

[Cheesegear]

Can Agressors shoot their grenade launchers AND bolter gauntlets at the same time? Can they shoot the grenades twice if they dont move?

If a model has multiple ranged weapons, it can shoot all of them.
- Unless it's throwing a Grenade weapon.
- Unless they're firing a Pistol. A model may only fire a Pistol in combination with other ranged weapons, if those other ranged weapons are also Pistols.

[LansXero]

If a model has multiple ranged weapons, it can shoot all of them.
- Unless it's throwing a Grenade weapon.
- Unless they're firing a Pistol. A model may only fire a Pistol in combination with other ranged weapons, if those other ranged weapons are also Pistols.

So Agressors get 72 shots per 3-man squad? That doesnt seem right. The grenade launcher is assault, not grenade, so thats sick.

[JNAProductions]

I made a list of Dark Eldar! Please tear apart mercilessly!

Spoiler: List

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Five of the following, for 1,185 points.

Spoiler

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Red Grief Patrol

HQs
60-Succubus with Archite Glaive and Blast Pistol
60-Succubus with Archite Glaive and Blast Pistol

Troop
40-5 Wyches with Hekatarii Blades and Splinter Pistols

Fast Attack
77-3 Reavers with 1 Blaster and 1 Grav-Talon

Total
237

And three of the following, for 837 points.

Spoiler

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Coven of Twelve Patrol

HQ
75-Haemonculus with a Hexrifle

Troop
50-5 Wracks with Haemonculi Tools and 1 Hexrifle

Dedicated Transports
77-Venom with Chain Snares and 2 Splinter Cannons
77-Venom with Chain Snares and 2 Splinter Cannons

Total
279

And that puts me 22 points over. So, drop two Blast Pistols off some of my Succubi and the Chain Snares on my Wych's Venom.

The standrad deployment is as follows:

Spoiler

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The two Party Buses: Each is a Venom loaded with 5 Succubi, 4 with Blast Pistols.
Then, their back-up: A single Venom full of Wyches.
Then, the chumps: 4 squads of foot-slogging Wyches.
Then, the Sniper Buses: Each is a Venom with 5 Wracks with one Hexrifle in them.
Then, lastly, the buffers: Each Venom will start in range of a Haemonculi, for T6.

[Cheesegear]

So Agressors get 72 shots per 3-man squad?

I mean...If you can roll six 6s. Why not?
But, that's why Raven Guard Agressors are actually good, they're within the 18" double-shoot range before Turn 1.
Unfortunately, all of those shots are in service of S4, AP-. So, they're not that good.
...Unless you're running a Dark Angels' Bolter Banner that doesn't even exist. Just kidding, just cheat, and then they're really good.

[Gauntlet]

I made a list of Dark Eldar! Please tear apart mercilessly!

Spoiler: List

Show

Five of the following, for 1,185 points.

Spoiler

Show

Red Grief Patrol

HQs
60-Succubus with Archite Glaive and Blast Pistol
60-Succubus with Archite Glaive and Blast Pistol

Troop
40-5 Wyches with Hekatarii Blades and Splinter Pistols

Fast Attack
77-3 Reavers with 1 Blaster and 1 Grav-Talon

Total
237

And three of the following, for 837 points.

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Coven of Twelve Patrol

HQ
75-Haemonculus with a Hexrifle

Troop
50-5 Wracks with Haemonculi Tools and 1 Hexrifle

Dedicated Transports
77-Venom with Chain Snares and 2 Splinter Cannons
77-Venom with Chain Snares and 2 Splinter Cannons

Total
279

And that puts me 22 points over. So, drop two Blast Pistols off some of my Succubi and the Chain Snares on my Wych's Venom.

The standrad deployment is as follows:

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The two Party Buses: Each is a Venom loaded with 5 Succubi, 4 with Blast Pistols.
Then, their back-up: A single Venom full of Wyches.
Then, the chumps: 4 squads of foot-slogging Wyches.
Then, the Sniper Buses: Each is a Venom with 5 Wracks with one Hexrifle in them.
Then, lastly, the buffers: Each Venom will start in range of a Haemonculi, for T6.

- Cult of Red Grief is great for Reavers, but less so for Wyches. You can't get to turn-1 charge anyway most of the time, and other Cults would also be able to turn-2. You might be better off with a Red Grief Outrider (Succubus, 3+ Reavers) and then Cursed Blade or Strife patrols with the Wyches in.

- Archite Glaives really aren't very good. The -1 to hit isn't great. In terms of points per damage, Succubi are way worse than Wyches, so you would probably be better off giving the Succubi Shardnets and Impalers to let them tie people up for the Wyches to take out.

- In terms of points efficiency for damage on Wyches, Hydra Gauntlets are fantastic. You pretty much always want to be maxing out special weapons on your Wyches.

- Raiders may be better for you than Venoms. A single Raider can carry two squads of Wyches, or a squad of Wyches and some Succubi, and it also gives you some extra mid-strength guns, which you are lacking. Also T6 -> 7 is better than T5 - > 6, if not by much. Chain Snares don't really do much - Venoms only have 2 attacks.

- Giving your Reavers blasters and grav-talons is quite a few points and doesn't really help them do their job (tie stuff up turn one so you can turn-2 assault things). You would probably be better off dropping them for a squad of Scourges with blasters or something similar. A lot of your anti-tank is tied up in the Succubi, which means if your Venoms get cracked on turn one then it'll take you a long time to get across the board and actually kill anything durable.

- Hexrifles are Heavy, so you don't want to be carting them around if you're flying in a Venom. Secondly, they don't really actually do very much - characters you want to be sniping often aren't very vulnerable to Str4 AP-1 Dmg1 shots. You're paying a lot of points - 325 - for a moderate amount of shooting and some extra copies of your Haemonculus aura. Your Venoms are much faster than Haems, so you only really will be in the aura on turn one, so you probably don't need three copies of it.

I'd go with something like this:

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- Red Grief Outrider
Succubus - Blood Glaive, Adrenalight - 50
Reavers (3) - Painbringer - 57
Reavers (3) - Splintermind - 57
Reavers (3) - Serpentin - 57
Reavers (3) - Hypex - 57

- Cursed Blade Batallion
Succubus - Shardnet, Grave Lotus - 55
Succubus - Shardnet, Adrenalight - 55
Wyches (5) - Hydra Gauntlets, Adrenalight - 44
Wyches (5) - Hydra Gauntlets, Adrenalight - 44
Wyches (5) - Hydra Gauntlets, Adrenalight - 44
Wyches (5) - Hydra Gauntlets, Adrenalight - 44
Wyches (5) - Hydra Gauntlets, Adrenalight - 44
Wyches (5) - Hydra Gauntlets, Adrenalight - 44

- Prophets of Flesh Outrider
Haemonculus - 70
Scourges - Blaster x4 - 128
Scourges - Blaster x4 - 128
Scourges - Shredder x4 - 92
Scourges - Shredder x4 - 92
Raider - 80
Raider - 80
Raider - 80
Raider - 80

Total 1482

The core is similar, but leaves you with another 518 points to spend on additional toys. Options include some Wracks to sit on home objectives, an Archon (lets you use Alliance of Agony) and some Ravagers / Kabalites, or some Razorwings - note that Razorwings can be <Wych Cult> so you can just put them straight into the batallion.

You only have 8CP rather than 11, but if you want more you could take two extra Succubi and split the Wyches into two Batallions to make that +3 back. Basically, Wyches are actually really quite good and Succubi are only okay, so taking patrols makes your Wyches-to-Succubi ratio worse which may not be worth it. Alternatively if you think you'll really need the CP, an Archon (for Labyrinthine Cunning) in a Batallion for more CP, also lets you take Dark Soothsaying on your Haemonculus for some extra CP also.

[JNAProductions]

Question: How do you get so many of the same drugs on the Wyches?

But thank you for the advice!

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Question: How do you get so many of the same drugs on the Wyches?

But thank you for the advice!

If I'm reading it right, every other drug has been taken by another, less important, unit, at which point you're free to select the same drug over and over for the units you want it for.

[Voidhawk]

If I'm reading it right, every other drug has been taken by another, less important, unit, at which point you're free to select the same drug over and over for the units you want it for.

That's correct. You choose drugs for each unit one by one, and can either roll randomly or choose from the list. If you choose, you can't take one that has already been taken (chosen or rolled) by another unit until all drugs have been taken at least once. In practice, this leads to three situations:

1) You have only a small number (~4 or less) of Wych Cult units. You choose only the good drugs for them (+1A, +1S, +1T, sometimes +2Mv depending on unit).
2) You have a medium number (4~6) of Wych Cult units. You choose the good ones for the important units, and have the last stragglers roll randomly hoping for a duplicate.
3) You have a large number (7+) of Wych Cult units. You choose the bad drugs on the ones that matter the least, and then spam the best one over and over.

Importantly you do this before the battle, at the same time you choose pyschic powers etc, so you can work out which one is the best for whichever enemy you're facing and make sure it goes on the right units.

[lord_khaine]

That even makes sense lorewise. Wytches drugging themselves up depending on the situation.

[LudDavenport]

That even makes sense lorewise. Wytches drugging themselves up depending on the situation.

Those sad wytch's that realizes they were only brought along so people could "borrow" their drug stash.

edit: Also while reflecting on 40k stuff, I was struck by a realization. Given the 1 use of powers/stratagems/drugs/miricals/whatever supposed to be pushing people away from spam? Like, one knight can just eat a CP per round to have a 4++. If you bring 2, opponents can shoot one to get you to buff it, then put the rest of the attack into the other. If you bring one squad of crusaders, they will get about one miracle per turn(probably worth the command reroll). A lot of army psykic schools have 1-2 really good powers, so just take a psyker from several.

I guess this is pushing towards soup? Seems like Something though. *shrug*

[Selpharia]

That Wych spam list also seems like it might be a good basis for something Ynnari that I’ve been trying to build. Take the wyches, succubi, raiders, and reavers, but add Yvraine, a Spearhead of Dark Reapers and an Outrider of Shining Spears, and a Farseer. Is there a glaring hole in a plan like that?

[Forum Explorer]

That Wych spam list also seems like it might be a good basis for something Ynnari that I’ve been trying to build. Take the wyches, succubi, raiders, and reavers, but add Yvraine, a Spearhead of Dark Reapers and an Outrider of Shining Spears, and a Farseer. Is there a glaring hole in a plan like that?

You lose the faction bonus, but that's pretty minor. You just have to decide which detachment is actually Ynnari.

[Selpharia]

I would probably make the Spears and Farseer Ynnari, and the Reapers for Word of the Phoenix. I think losing Battle Focus would be fine in those instances, since it’s not doing much there to begin with