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2018-01-30, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
That's true, but now that more and more of these top games are being streamed, it's visible to the general community while a lot of the drama used to just be insular to the group of players. It's to the point where Tryndamere (of Riot Games fame) was Tweeting about it, which is about as much exposure as a game like 40k can really get.
But yeah, people get cutthroat quite a bit at GTs and Majors. Like I said, not surprising, but also pretty
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2018-01-30, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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- Oxford, England
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
That's funnier than the preceding joke!
Seriously though Cheese, you used to play Magic the Gathering. The MtG Comprehensive Rules (aka "How the Game Actually Works") is currently 226 pages of dense text, with its own formal language for stating how things should proceed in any given case. It has an (outsourced) Judging Program which helps train players into judges, so that they can settle disputes over them. That's what a game "designed to be competitive" looks like, and it still has edge cases and player issues.
40k has what, 50 pages of typo-laden rules (half of which is pictures) and a pile of randomly updated FAQs? All of which frequently contradict themselves and use confusing language. 8th is the first edition to even properly differentiate between Player Turns and Battle Rounds!
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2018-01-30, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Lima, Peru
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Thats the issue with wanting to make a casual-friendly game competitive. Chapter Aproved was a good oportunity for GW to come up with its own tournament rules packet, streamline and define things for the cheese / loophole minded and provide an official framework within which to work. Alas, what we got instead was paid errata. Which I wouldnt mind, if we could get it in app form, not just dead tree form. As much hate as battlescribe gets, I couldnt imagine playing by flipping books back and forth or resorting to spreadsheets. Sure, its no Warroom, but its what we got.
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2018-01-30, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
How old is the DCI, again?
'Cause 8th Ed. is currently 7 months old, and still getting rules.
8th is the first edition to even properly differentiate between Player Turns and Battle Rounds!
Which is what the ITC is currently (trying) to do for GW, just as the DCI does for Wizards.
ION;
Not sure how I feel about Sergeant helmets on the Deathwatch.
Spoiler
I'm currently working on a Deathwatch Ancient, using one winged angel of death from theEmpireFreeguild General kit.
IO,ON;
So Rogal Dorn's model is completely static and 100% boring. 'Defender of Terra' my arse. Wake me up when someone converts him into Ezekiel's stance.
EDIT: It's already been pointed out that Dorn looks like Ted Danson. I am okay with this.
(As opposed to Guilliman looking like Joffrey, lol)
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2018-01-31, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
I refuse to accept the lack of facial hair on that Dorn model.
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2018-01-31, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Australia
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2018-01-31, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Lima, Peru
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Wait, what? No no, the rules are made and set and mantained by Wizards themselves. Even the WPN guys who manage us stores are Wizards employees. Judges are volunteers certified by a 3rd party, but they dont make the rules or even get to overturn them when they are muddled.
The argument about time is bogus as well; 8th was in development for however long, and should've had the competitive scene in mind from the get go, because the errata and ambiguity comes from the very building blocks of the system not being clear (like the interaction between faction keywords and stratagems, or 'objective secure' being patched in, or flyers, or...). While 8th does many things right, its apparent disregard of the competitive side of the game is worrying, specially for LGS like mine. No, people wont shell out 2 - 3k US$ 'for fun' or 'for the joy of painting', plenty of cheaper stuff for that; they do because of the game, and its rules, and the joy of playing each other.
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2018-01-31, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
I suppose there's also the issue that scoring isn't consistent with the rules given, as I recall secondary objectives are in effect for many tournaments including LVO, and that such scoring benefits certain armies more, or more in earlier rounds (also allowing players that get an early lead to milk the clock).
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2018-01-31, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Canada
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
They sorta did have it in mind. I mean when Age of Sigmar booted up it didn't have the competitive scene in mind at all with it's no point values or anything. But I think 8th was made with the casual scene in mind first and foremost. It's trying to do both, and not badly in my opinion, but because it's focus is on the casual side of things, it's not worried about initial balance and depends on 'patches' to keep things competitive.
I will say that I think 8th is the most competitive Warhammer has ever been.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2018-01-31, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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- UK
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Which is a bit like saying this brick is the most aerodynamic that bricks have ever been.
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2018-02-01, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Canada
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2018-02-01, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
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2018-02-01, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Australia
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2018-02-01, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Australia
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2018-02-01, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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- Oxford, England
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
The issue is that attitude is ass-backwards and doesn't work.
It's doable (though tricky) to take a complex ruleset and boil it down to the bare bones needed to play, and then only introduce the intricacies to new players later. It's basically impossible to start with a spluge of ideas and "this is how it works in my head", and somehow pull a hard ruleset up out of the muck.
Taking the example of Magic the Gathering again: the MtG department for RnD has one guy who's job title is Rules Manager. His job is, more or less, to know the entire rules inside and out, and tell the rest of RnD how to phrase new cards so that they function within the structure. Whenever the designers decide to add a new mechanic to the game (eg, every set), he's the guy who adds the update to the Comprehensive Rules. And rarely, when the designers want to do something that the game doesn't allow he gets to say "No, the game can't do that.", or "we could make the game do that, but it would break a hundred other things and isn't worth it". And then they listen and don't do the thing.
40k has no-one curating it, no final adjudicator or "how the game actually works" documentation, and a whole pile of "it works because we say it does".
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2018-02-01, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Oh you sweet summer child, according to Rosewater that is a daily occurrence in Tabak's life.
While a Rules Manager would be nice, it works best in games where there is a set framework for the entire game, and not for games like 40k; for a Rules Manager to work we'd still need to be playing 4th edition or earlier.
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2018-02-01, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Lima, Peru
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
There is nothing inherent to 40k or miniature gaming that prevents this; not even legacy rules as 8th was a hard reset anyways so they could've built it from the ground up with an expandible engine in mind, not isolated ideas put together. Thats the issue, they chose not to build a ruleset, but a game that can be fan-fixed because 'casuals dont care enough anyways'. Yet its casuals who get the most confused, as competitive players can extrapolate from other games / fanmade rulesets and fix holes to both player's satisfaction; casuals have a harder time with that.
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2018-02-01, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
It's best to build from a tournament standpoint-if it's balanced and clear for tournament players, it's balanced and clear for casuals. The opposite is not true.
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
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2018-02-01, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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- Oxford, England
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Exactly: a set framework is what 40k lacks, and without one it will never have the necessary clarity for competitive play.
Instead we get the mess we have, where tournaments are forced to issue their own arbitrary and often confusing rulings on a myriad of topics, and the most direct source we have is screenshots of emails from customer service!
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2018-02-01, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- WI, USA
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2018-02-01, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- Tharggy, on Tellene
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
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2018-02-01, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Presumably when Dorn lost his hand in battle he would have claimed it was just a flesh wound.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2018-02-01, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Sorry.. i cant imagine a Dorn without a massive stache.. or a dull monotome voice entoning "This is funny to me"
(Blame If the Emperor Had a Text to Speach Device)thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-02-01, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
So a few friends and I have decided to do an apocalypse game towards the end of the month but we aren't experienced at apocalypse games so I'm hoping for suggestion and advice on how to go about this. So far I seem to be in charge of the game/scenario. What I'm thinking at so far:
SpoilerScope: we're looking at a 2 v. 2 game, roughly 10k nids vs. TBD, likely marines and possibly ad mech.
Time: 7 hours including set up and breaks, discounting clean up. I'm leaning towards 30 min turns per side but don't know if that's really sufficient.
Command points: I was thinking a flat 10 or 15 per player.
Scoring: 3 objectives worth 2 pts each. Our side doesn't have anything larger than a single heirodule and I don't know if they're bringing any Superheavies, but if they do I was thinking 1 pt per kill (might give us more opportunity though so I'm hesitant). Each player has a warlord but each side nominates one of the warlords as their warmaster, warlords worth 1 pt, warmaster 2pts. I'm not sure how to score beyond that.
Scenario: roughly, nids overrunning a planet, defenders fell back to their last star port, things look bleak but reinforcements are starting to make it through the hive fleet in orbit. We'd adopt firestorm and exterminatus rules, but I want to modify they, maybe firestorm only T1 & 2, option to use exterminatus or firestorm on turns 3+?
Deployment: I'm thinking maybe each side places half their armies in reserve (superheavy/heirodule in reserve costs a command point). Reinforcments come in T2 as the swarm closes in and reinforcements come down.
Strategems: I feel like we should have some apoc ish ones, maybe each side can bringing back infantry similar to eternal swarm?
I assume we aren't going for formations. However is someone wants to split their army trait/doctrine they can do so by laying it out at the start.
Relics: 2 per side, 1 command pt for 1, and only one, extra?
No limit on repeat use of powers/strategems except for rerolls, rerolls limited to 2 per player turn and no double rerolling same die (naturally).
Any suggestions, thoughts or guidance on the above, or running apocalypse in general, is welcome.
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2018-02-01, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Chapter Approved tells you, including Missions, and suggestions for how to change the existing Missions.
Deployment: I'm thinking maybe each side places half their armies in reserve
Strategems: I feel like we should have some apoc ish ones, maybe each side can bringing back infantry similar to eternal swarm?
No limit on repeat use of powers/strategems except for rerolls, rerolls limited to 2 per player turn and no double rerolling same die (naturally).
Any suggestions, thoughts or guidance on the above, or running apocalypse in general, is welcome.
If you've put a time limit on turns, and limited the number of players to <8, you've already solved most of the problems that arise when people play Apocalypse.
If you have no <Titanic> units, then obviously you lose out on all those points, but, again, Chapter Approved gives you some solid examples of extra Objectives, and you can pick whichever ones you want.
The only thing that needs changing is how many Relics you get. I played 5K per player last week. I definitely feel that 1 Relic per 2000 Points shouldn't be out of the question.
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2018-02-01, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Canada
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Something else to consider is how many CP you each get. I like the idea of just assigning CP for Apocalypse games, and giving each player a flat 10 or maybe even 15 CP to play with.
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2018-02-01, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
If your army is Battle-forged*, you should be getting CPs anyway. I can have 10 CPs in a 2000 Point army with my eyes closed (BF +3, RG +3, Batt +3, Det +1). Once you've read Chapter Approved, and once you've figured out that Apocalypse in 8th Ed. (currently) uses Detachments, 10 CPs just seems tame.
Had I realised that Apocalypse still uses Detachments last week, I wouldn't have given everyone a flat 10 in a 5K army.
* However, in larger points, especially at the 'casual' level, it's uncommon for someone to have 2500+ Points of a single Super-Faction, especially if they've shafted themselves by playing Orks, Necrons or Tau, and don't have a Super-Faction.
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2018-02-01, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Indiana
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
I built a 300 Power Apocalypse list that had 21 command points thanks to all the detachments I shoved in there. +3 Battleforged, +9 Brigade, +3 Super-Heavy, +3 Battalion, +1 Spearhead, +2 Creed.
Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2018-02-01 at 10:57 PM.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2018-02-02, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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- Oxford, England
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Spoiler: Warhammer Community Video
Hahahaha... wait WHAT?
SpoilerSo, GW is putting a Squat Mercenary in the new Necromunda. This sounds like (as with Celestine) them testing the waters to see how much of the constant messaging is actual interest, and how much is just memetic-foam.
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2018-02-02, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
Amazing!
and its 11:55 on that other clock ;)