OOTS #1109 - The Discussion Thread

[eilandesq]

Hmmm... I'm not sure exactly what the pun in the title "Spy Bowl" is.

Also I got my calendar today, hooray! And... "wight whale"? *groan*

Hilgya's scrying device, which uses water to create a reflective viewing surface (Galadriel-style, though less fancy).

[goodpeople25]

Greater Scrying makes Hilgya level 13+, so powerful enough to make a real difference.

Which means her turning check should have killed vampire spawn.

So what would her effective turning level(s) need to be to turn and not destroy them? Just a thought but we already are possibly off book with her turning at all and I believe a reduced turning level has more precedent than losing the destroy property.

[ackmondual]

A great battle is yet to come, but at least we get to see a battle of wits in the next strip

[Kish]

So what would her effective turning level(s) need to be to turn and not destroy them? Just a thought but we already are possibly off book with her turning at all and I believe a reduced turning level has more precedent than losing the destroy property.

How about "they were vampires, not vampire spawn"?

(Anticipating the next question: vampires can have any number of hit dice, depending on their own character level, and thus the level to turn or destroy them is individual.)

[b_jonas]

None of that would prevent one of the vampires from triggering it intentionally.

Yup. The vampires could just stay there and deliberately trigger the symbol when Vaarsuvius or Haley comes close. The vampires wouldn't even be harmed by the symbol, because they're undead, and so immune to any effects that require a fortitude save, and the symbol does require a fortitude save.

• Cover it.
• Send someone with more than 150 HP to activate it, then wait 10 minutes for the effect to end

Does covering work still after the symbol was triggered? Yes, GW, I believe the second method would work in theory.

[SilverCacaobean]

I hope Minrah isn't just here to get killed to legitimize the thread these adversaries pose, but I can't see anyone else dying...

[Fish]

As undead, they are immune to all forms of mind-affecting magic, which includes most illusions. I think there are a small number in some obscure sourcebooks that are not mind-affecting, but those are unlikely to be available to the Order.

False. We can see that undead are not automatically immune to illusions; even Malack needed True Seeing to see what Durkula could not.

[D.One]

Pretty sure it was "Sending"

I think the plan is to use Vampiric Domination to make the council chiefs vote for World Destruction.

That's what I understood too. Which brings me to the following question: why such an important voting apparently doesn't take any precautions against one (or more) of the voters being dominated by an external force? I mean, there must be means of detecting the domination, that could be used before each vote. Even more, in the present situation, Greg anounced what he intended to do. If the order warns the dwarves (why hasn't anyone in the temple sent a Sending?), why don't the simply make the voting inside the area of a Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos/Law/Good?

(Anticipating the next question: vampires can have any number of hit dice, depending on their own character level, and thus the level to turn or destroy them is individual.)

Any number of Hit Dice above 4. And +4 Turn Resistance.

[goodpeople25]

How about "they were vampires, not vampire spawn"?

(Anticipating the next question: vampires can have any number of hit dice, depending on their own character level, and thus the level to turn or destroy them is individual.)

Yes? It was just meant to be a specific thought of mine. And just as a possibility I never meant to discount any other possibilities nor advocate it as likely or ideal, ect.

Edit And your anticipation would be wrong. I was asking about turning for my specific post due to it being rather integral and not being 100% on the exact mechanics.

[D.One]

As undead, they are immune to all forms of mind-affecting magic, which includes most illusions. I think there are a small number in some obscure sourcebooks that are not mind-affecting, but those are unlikely to be available to the Order.

Figments, Glamers and Shadows aren't, by default, Mind-Affecting (at least, not in a way that undead are immune to). The plan presented relies on a Figment (such as Major Image or another low level illusion), so the undead wouldn't be immune to it.

[Fyraltari]

Guys, the symbol is a McGuffin.

It has no magic properties. As I said earlier, Durkula will only be seen when and where he wants to be, so he has staged a monumental distraction to prevent the disruption of his plan. The OoTS should stay on target, which is saving the council, rather than waste their time chasing Durkon around Dwarftown.

A question of an OOC nature: How many vampires can D raise with his speedy vampire spell? How many castings at what spell level? There are a crapload of vampires created in a short amount of time, thus depleting Durkula's spells per day by that much. Add a Symbol spell and that's another empty slot until tomorrow.

Given this, it is apparent D is using the magic of his minions to deplete the resources of The OoTS. So, as long as they are waiting for him in the dining hall, it makes sense to not go there and let them succeed. They won't be going anywhere while waiting for the trap to spring, so don't spring it and force them to stay put and do nothing.

Instead, I'd send Paladin Girl to warn the kingdom to stay out of the way, then march on the council chambers and set traps for the spell-depleted Durkula.

Another issue occurred to me a while back, which is that upon vampirization the clan chiefs will cease to be the clan chiefs, instead becoming their vampire negative energy spirit. Simply vamping the council will result in a requirement for their subordinates to assume command, gather, and vote. So vamping the council is a waste of time. Hel needs to break the deadlock, which means forcing the still living council to vote to destroy the world and subject all dwarven souls still alive to her dominion.

Gah! Rich, you give me headaches! But I love your comic for that. I can't wait for the next page! (We'll, history shows I can, and will.)

And thus you encounter the exact same issue. The votes won't be made by the chiefs but by the dominator with the chiefs as unwilling observers.

They don't know where the clan elders are right now, just that they will be in the meeting hall by midmorning at which point either Durkula will be there or they will be dominated already. Stopping him right now is the most sensible thing to do. Especially since should they just manage to protect the Elders but not end him he'd go on a murder spree just to be an ass.

Howcould Durkula be seen only when he wants to, he has no way of knowing when he is scryed on has he? And he can't block it other than by making a successful save right?

The clan elders would be the one voting whether they are dominated or not, why they vote what they vote, even if they are dominated, is their problem, and I suspect that if Dvalin is lawful enough to go through this for these stakes rather than break his oath, he is lawful enough to obey their vote even if he notices their domination.

Also Durk' vamped his troops yesterday. He is at full clerical power now.

None of these vampires have coffins, yet right? Not even Durkon*/Greg/Durkula? So luring them all to the center of the room (with an Elan-provided illusion of Roy, V, and Belkar) then pelting them with a Greater Dispel Magic, Quickened Fireball, and Flamestrike could wipe out many of the Spawn, and possibly even some of the higher-level Vamps - permanently.

I suspect Jerkon used one of the Mechane's crate to make a dwarf-sized coffin and will try to escape by there.


Could the rune be destroyed be a fireball or the like?

Edit :

That's what I understood too. Which brings me to the following question: why such an important voting apparently doesn't take any precautions against one (or more) of the voters being dominated by an external force? I mean, there must be means of detecting the domination, that could be used before each vote. Even more, in the present situation, Greg anounced what he intended to do. If the order warns the dwarves (why hasn't anyone in the temple sent a Sending?), why don't the simply make the voting inside the area of a Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos/Law/Good?

Nitick, Greg did not announce what he planned, ExaarghHamerfallen did to Durkula's discontent.
For why no one in the temple Sended a warning : either all three of them are too low levzl for that (not a D&D player speaking) or, more likely, none of them prepared it today. Would you if you expecting just another regular day indoor?

For why the council is not prepared, well I guess this will be explained later but in the meantime I could suggest : general lack of dwarven magic users, apart from Clerics we haven't seen any and/or since this councli is not the parliament anymore they are very low on the security to save on funds. I admit that this is really weak but that's all I got.

[Manty5]

First, let me point out that the symbol lasts not 10 minutes, but 10 minutes PER CASTER LEVEL. That's a long time. Not even fortunate fate would save someone from a straight-out death effect. Maybe if V could cast greater dispel at an angle to the door where she can see the floor NEAR the symbol but not the symbol itself...

Also, let me point out that Durkula CAN fail a save versus scry intentionally. Isn't it odd that durkula's most important preparations occur right after the scrying attempt? He knows there's a cleric that can turn undead and therefore can also scry, so he may be leaving traps, making orders, then sending to convince Roy to assault a place that he's already abandoned (or left his flunkies at for a diversion) to go dominate the elders whole the OOTS goes to the trapped room.

[Shining Wrath]

First, let me point out that the symbol lasts not 10 minutes, but 10 minutes PER CASTER LEVEL. That's a long time. Not even fortunate fate would save someone from a straight-out death effect. Maybe if V could cast greater dispel at an angle to the door where she can see the floor NEAR the symbol but not the symbol itself...

Also, let me point out that you CAN fail a save versus scry intentionally. Isn't it odd that durkula's most important preparations occur right after the scrying attempt? He knows there's a cleric that can turn undead and therefore can also scry, so he may be leaving traps, making orders, then sending to convince Roy to assault a place that he's already abandoned (or left his flunkies at for a diversion) to go dominate the elders whole the OOTS goes to the trapped room.

It's a little risky, though, to assume that the scrying will occur just as he does certain things / issues certain orders. What if the Order is disorderly and doesn't scry until 5 minutes later?

[a1chemi]

Howcould Durkula be seen only when he wants to, he has no way of knowing when he is scryed on has he? And he can't block it other than by making a successful save right?

He would only know he was scryed on if he made his will save and used spellcraft to determine the spell used. He failed his save cuz they saw him so he has no idea.

He has no options available to him to block the scrying. A scry proof location is pretty much the only thing that could work and I imagine those are hard to find in Firmament and heavily warded/defended if they even exist.

[Sebastian]

One way to take out the Symbol of Death; send in a volunteer who dies to trigger it, and then promise to resurrect them afterward, if possible.

Would a summoned creature work? does Roy still have his bag of tricks?

[brian 333]

Nondetection is a spell available to rangers and arcane casters. It can easily be placed on a ring or other item, and is specifically proof against scrying. It is but one method of preventing scrying.

Durkula has, according to Hilgya, been pushing back scrying attempts. He wouldn't be worth his Spellcraft Check if he didn't notice her failures. One who is aware of a scrying attempt can stop it with a save, and even backtrack and identify the scryer if desired.

He has known it's Hilgya for a while now. He'd also be a fool to have done nothing to protect himself. We never saw him defeat the scrying attempts, so we never saw him do what he had to do to stop it, which may have been as simple for him as simply deciding to resist.

Scrying is not the perfect one way view players want it to be. Just ask Pippin Took.

[Manty5]

It's a little risky, though, to assume that the scrying will occur just as he does certain things / issues certain orders. What if the Order is disorderly and doesn't scry until 5 minutes later?

I'm sorry, my source for that info was what someone else on the forum said. The actual 3.x description simply says that will negates. What someone else said was that you could detect the attempt, with enough spellcasting skill know who made the attempt (but obviously he can guess who made the attempt), and then intentionally fail the attempt. Then since he knows someone's watching him, he can do things to lure Roy into a trap or perhaps just have Roy wait outside the area thinking he's blocking Durkula, who has actually already left.

I can find no source to back up this interpretation for scry failures. It's entirely possible I misremembered, and those rules apply to some other spell. I apologise.

Would a summoned creature work? does Roy still have his bag of tricks?

It would need to affect 150 HP worth of creatures to stop its effects. That's a LOT of ferrets.

[goodpeople25]

It's a little risky, though, to assume that the scrying will occur just as he does certain things / issues certain orders. What if the Order is disorderly and doesn't scry until 5 minutes later?

I don't disagree but he is sending the Order a message. That could give him some level of predication/control over what the Order does depending on the contents.

[Basement Cat]

Does Hilgya's spell give us any hint about her class level?

I wonder why Durkon never used a scrying spell like that. Avoiding plot spoilers, perhaps, but still...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's what I understood too. Which brings me to the following question: why such an important voting apparently doesn't take any precautions against one (or more) of the voters being dominated by an external force?

A vote to tell a minor deity what they need to support amongst all other minor deities is not "an important vote". The system was not designed with the foresight that one day the world would hang in the balance. It was probably not designed at all: Dvalin listened to the other clans when he was alive without regard to mental state of influencing magics, and he still does.

GW

[Manty5]

I wonder why Durkon never used a scrying spell like that.

We wouldn't know if he did unless Rich told us. The only party member with a decent spellcraft score is V.

EDIT: Would rebellious Mocha Lattes be made with Anarchic water?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It is entirely within the High Priest of Hel’s nature to gloat fiendishly, so really Roy probably should have seen that coming.

[Kantaki]

Nondetection is a spell available to rangers and arcane casters. It can easily be placed on a ring or other item, and is specifically proof against scrying. It is but one method of preventing scrying.

Durkula has, according to Hilgya, been pushing back scrying attempts. He wouldn't be worth his Spellcraft Check if he didn't notice her failures. One who is aware of a scrying attempt can stop it with a save, and even backtrack and identify the scryer if desired.

He has known it's Hilgya for a while now. He'd also be a fool to have done nothing to protect himself. We never saw him defeat the scrying attempts, so we never saw him do what he had to do to stop it, which may have been as simple for him as simply deciding to resist.

Scrying is not the perfect one way view players want it to be. Just ask Pippin Took.

What makes you think she ever scryed on Durkula?
For all we know she tried it on Durkon a few times, he kept resisting and eventually she stopped.
And from what Hylgia said the resistance is subconscious, so he wouldn't even notice.

Besides, even if she used it on Durkula or he noticed something in D's memory how should he know it's Hylgia?
Or care about her at all?
Some chick his host used to know is spying on him, so what?
Wouldn't be the first time he missed something important.

And comparing some run of the mill television spell with a set of very powerful artifacts explicitly designed to communicate with each other is seriously underselling the latter.
Even if Hylgia's improvised scrying pool worked like the palantir Durkula is no Sauron.
Sure, spying on a demi-god or even a powerful outsider like that is just asking for trouble, but a run of the mill vampire- even with cleric levels?
Maybe if he were vastly more powerful I would be concerned.

[TLucean]

Also, let me point out that Durkula CAN fail a save versus scry intentionally. Isn't it odd that durkula's most important preparations occur right after the scrying attempt?

Since the casting time of the Symbol is 10 minutes versus the casting time of Greater Scrying with 1 standard action and a duration measured in hours. So if he really is expecting someone to scry on him it would require much more effort to fool them.

[brian 333]

A vote to tell a minor deity what they need to support amongst all other minor deities is not "an important vote". The system was not designed with the foresight that one day the world would hang in the balance. It was probably not designed at all: Dvalin listened to the other clans when he was alive without regard to mental state of influencing magics, and he still does.

GW

Wait: if a puppet master causes his marionette to stab you in the eye, the puppet is to blame and the puppet master is guilt free? It is an extreme example, but the point is valid. The clan chiefs are supposed to vote, yes, but domination is a form of duress in the very best circumstances, and nothing said under duress can be binding. However, if they are compelled to vote against their will, then they didn't actually vote because they had no free choice, which is the definition of a vote.

Domination may be what Roy fears, but if That's Durkula's plan, it's got holes in it Elan could ride a chocobo through.

[TLucean]

Wait: if a puppet master causes his marionette to stab you in the eye, the puppet is to blame and the puppet master is guilt free? It is an extreme example, but the point is valid. The clan chiefs are supposed to vote, yes, but domination is a form of duress in the very best circumstances, and nothing said under duress can be binding. However, if they are compelled to vote against their will, then they didn't actually vote because they had no free choice, which is the definition of a vote.

Domination may be what Roy fears, but if That's Durkula's plan, it's got holes in it Elan could ride a chocobo through.

It would matter only when Dvalin knows about it and acts accordingly. If he just looks for the result and decides upon that it may be too late for lawyering to step in. Because the world would already be destroyed by then.

[JustinKase]

I actually thought that was Eugine for a half-second there. It's been a while since he popped in.

I had the same reaction.

[Fyraltari]

Wait: if a puppet master causes his marionette to stab you in the eye, the puppet is to blame and the puppet master is guilt free? It is an extreme example, but the point is valid. The clan chiefs are supposed to vote, yes, but domination is a form of duress in the very best circumstances, and nothing said under duress can be binding. However, if they are compelled to vote against their will, then they didn't actually vote because they had no free choice, which is the definition of a vote.

Domination may be what Roy fears, but if That's Durkula's plan, it's got holes in it Elan could ride a chocobo through.

So you've never herad of rigging a vote? The Clan Elder vote is irrelevant to the godsmoot only Dvalin's is. Dvalin is the one Durkula need to convince, not you, not us, not the dwarven population, only Dvalin. It only has to work for a few minutes even.

[knag]

Presumably, all the Hilgya alignment followers will pick up on the "Anarchic" water reference . . .

I'm surprised there is no discussion of this yet. It seems to lend weight to the theory that she's Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Evil.

[Manty5]

For the benefit of the discussion on scrying:

A symbol of death can be removed by a successful dispel magic targeted solely on the rune. An erase spell has no effect on a symbol of death. Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it.

Symbol of death can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent symbol of death that is disabled or that has affected its maximum number of hit points becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then can be triggered again as normal.

Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.

So one valid strategy might be to send Haley in with greater invisibility.