OOTS #1109 - The Discussion Thread

[SlashDash]

Couldn't they just cast an illusion on the cieling to block the sight? Assuming they don't let the vamps trigger it by turning them or something?

Or... Unleash bloodfeast to block it.
Assuming they stoneskin it.


Wait... We already saw that V knows wall passage. Can they just bypass the trap entirely with it?

I think sending has set up more punch lines than any other spell in this comic, right?

I think explosive runes has the most punchlines. But I haven't counted.

[D.One]

1 easy way to bypass Symbol of Death.

Get Death Ward cast before.

In fact, it's a good ward to get before facing any Undead.
Prevents Energy Drain, death spells, etc.

Hilgya could cast it, she has high enough level. The main question is if she prepared it, and how many did she prepare.

Minrah has proved herself able to cast 3rd level spells, thus, she's at least 5th level Cleric. To cast Death Ward, she should be 7th+ level Cleric, but hasn't demonstrated such level yet.

[Shining Wrath]

Any arguments about V's friendship with Elan, or any other relationship (especially that with their spouse) based upon the Soul Splice / mass murder assume that V has not changed significantly since then and learned nothing about themselves.

I think it would be tedious to enumerate the counterexamples; in brief, every time that the topic has been germane to the strip since V fled in horror at their own behavior in the pyramid, we've either seen V trying to do better, or at least, not displaying the same old behaviors of contempt, arrogance, and lust for power.

Character growth is a key theme of the strip. Saying that V has not experience growth is a rather large contradiction to the author's stated intent.

[georgie_leech]

I always thought that Mr. Burlew's point isn't that we are only who we are on our worst day, but that it is still a part of who we are. I mean, we have a villain built around Durkon's literal worst day personified, so their struggle is a direct contrast between Dukon on his worst day, and literally everything else about him as a character.

[eilandesq]

Symbol of Death does not inflict HP damage. It just adds the "you are dead" status if you fall under the HP cap and fail the save. If you pass the save, you do not get the "you are dead" status and thus are fine.

No, but the amount of targets it can ultimately affect has a hit point "budget"--and in the absence of more explicitly written language that, say, forcing a 75 hit point creature to make a Fortitude save or die doesn't count if the creature makes its save (and that theoretically the symbol could keep targeting an infinite number of such creatures during the time frame of the symbol as long as no more than one of them fails a save), I'd rule that a resisted death "zap" from the symbol drains it just like one that isn't does.

[brian 333]

No, but the amount of targets it can ultimately affect has a hit point "budget"--and in the absence of more explicitly written language that, say, forcing a 75 hit point creature to make a Fortitude save or die doesn't count if the creature makes its save (and that theoretically the symbol could keep targeting an infinite number of such creatures during the time frame of the symbol as long as no more than one of them fails a save), I'd rule that a resisted death "zap" from the symbol drains it just like one that isn't does.

As do I.

The spell clearly bypasses without reduction anyone above the HP cap, but it does not bypass those who make their save. I'd rule that amount of the spell's HP budget is used to no effect.

[KorvinStarmast]

I always thought that Mr. Burlew's point isn't that we are only who we are on our worst day, but that it is still a part of who we are.

A part of who we are, and who we know we can be. Sometimes, we don't know what we are capable of, in both better and worse senses, until we are put under significant stress. (And for a RL example, the above is sort of why USMC boot camp, the Army's Ranger School, and Seal Training / BUDS are structured the way that they are).

[Kami2awa]

Wondering if Anarchic Water is produced when you melt this stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_ice

[warmachine]

Wondering if Anarchic Water is produced when you melt this stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_ice

Yes, because all liquid water molecules are anarchic, following Brownian motion, whether melted from amorphous or crystalline ice.

[Red XIV]

Greater Scrying is level 7 for clerics, so Hilgya is at least level 13. That would make her almost a match for Durkon, if not for Durkula. The Crystal-Haley nemesis rules are in effect; Hilgya must have kept up with Durkon prior to his vampirization even while pregnant.

Of course, she might be level 20. Unlikely that she's higher level than Durkon was, but it cannot be ruled out.

Would the nemesis rule have given her extra levels when Durkon was vampirized, so that she'd match his new effective character level? Or would that not happen because Durkula isn't the real Durkon? (And because giving her 8 extra levels would probably push her into Epic, and thus make her entirely too strong an ally to keep the fight interesting.)

[Alex Warlorn]

Does Vampire Durkon know they were spying on them? Because he has no way of knowing that or they'd do so, or that they'd spy on him in that particular time. Basically, if he backtracked their spell, it feels like less that the odds are against them and more like the narrative is outright CHEATING.

Hopefully this information on the vampire's ambush will enable the Order of the Stick to cripple Vampire Durkon's options. You think Vampire Durkon would know from his host's memories that it's smarter to just RUN AWAY from these guys are they have a habit of 90% of the time of NOT DYING. And to just set up delays so they can accomplish their mission, which are far more likely to be effective.

But seriously, to be honest honest? This comic feels like a BREATH OF FRESH AIR!!! Finally the Order of the Stick gets the drop on the enemy for once, Vampire Durkon is most likely there to bait them into the trap they're setting up, likely with some decay traps to make the heroes feel good about themselves... but he doesn't know the Order of the Stick knows ... which means I can look forward to the order of the stick kicking undead butt in the next few comics! :-)

[arimareiji]

Spoiler: not a spoiler, just condensing

Show

Does Vampire Durkon know they were spying on them? Because he has no way of knowing that or they'd do so, or that they'd spy on him in that particular time. Basically, if he backtracked their spell, it feels like less that the odds are against them and more like the narrative is outright CHEATING.

Hopefully this information on the vampire's ambush will enable the Order of the Stick to cripple Vampire Durkon's options. You think Vampire Durkon would know from his host's memories that it's smarter to just RUN AWAY from these guys are they have a habit of 90% of the time of NOT DYING. And to just set up delays so they can accomplish their mission, which are far more likely to be effective.

But seriously, to be honest honest? This comic feels like a BREATH OF FRESH AIR!!! Finally the Order of the Stick gets the drop on the enemy for once [snip]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a lucky break is just a lucky break. It often seems everything is ordered so as to frustrate (panel 3) the Sticks, but it's not an immutable law of the universe.

Speaking of breaths of fresh air...

I always thought that Mr. Burlew's point isn't that we are only who we are on our worst day, but that it is still a part of who we are. I mean, we have a villain built around Durkon's literal worst day personified, so their struggle is a direct contrast between Dukon on his worst day, and literally everything else about him as a character.

A part of who we are, and who we know we can be. Sometimes, we don't know what we are capable of, in both better and worse senses, until we are put under significant stress. (And for a RL example, the above is sort of why USMC boot camp, the Army's Ranger School, and Seal Training / BUDS are structured the way that they are).

Indeed to both.

Imo, those training methods demonstrate it's completely backwards to think that we can never be better than on our worst day.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Would the nemesis rule have given her extra levels when Durkon was vampirized, so that she'd match his new effective character level? Or would that not happen because Durkula isn't the real Durkon? (And because giving her 8 extra levels would probably push her into Epic, and thus make her entirely too strong an ally to keep the fight interesting.)

Level adjustment is not extra levels. It's just a mechanic for determining how much extra XP you need to acquire to level up.

[arimareiji]

Would the nemesis rule have given her extra levels

I dunno about giving her levels as a nemesis, but if he got her pregnant he certainly gave her emesis.

[Goblin_Priest]

It's a shame that Durkula just used 5000 diamond dust to ower up this symbol of death spell. Oh, well, it's not like they would need diamond to cast a ressurrection, after Durkula's body is destroyed.

I'm guessing this will be of importance.

[Goblin_Priest]

Would the nemesis rule have given her extra levels when Durkon was vampirized, so that she'd match his new effective character level? Or would that not happen because Durkula isn't the real Durkon? (And because giving her 8 extra levels would probably push her into Epic, and thus make her entirely too strong an ally to keep the fight interesting.)

She's probably Durkon's level, but that might be before the LA from the template.

[F.Harr]

Please, Roy, please, Roy, don't let him know you know about the ambush!

[b_jonas]

Vampires can at all times climb surfaces as if they were under the effects of a spider climb spell.

oonker, Keltest: thank you, that explains it. I didn't know vampires could do that.

[oonker]

Couldn't they just cast an illusion on the cieling to block the sight? Assuming they don't let the vamps trigger it by turning them or something?

Or... Unleash bloodfeast to block it.
Assuming they stoneskin it.


Wait... We already saw that V knows wall passage. Can they just bypass the trap entirely with it?



I think explosive runes has the most punchlines. But I haven't counted.

That would be a nice thread to start: punchline index - who's the funniest?

...that I won't start, of course.


Also, if Bloodfeast indeed is dispelled and turned back into his tyranossaurus form, I call that the vampire he will eat is the Exarch:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html

[Casimir-Ivanova]

Please, Roy, please, Roy, don't let him know you know about the ambush!

I don't think Roy's Wisdom score is THAT bad. I personally would hope Roy says something clever and creates a counter-ambush, but *shrug* we shall see.

[Shining Wrath]

Does Vampire Durkon know they were spying on them? Because he has no way of knowing that or they'd do so, or that they'd spy on him in that particular time. Basically, if he backtracked their spell, it feels like less that the odds are against them and more like the narrative is outright CHEATING.

Hopefully this information on the vampire's ambush will enable the Order of the Stick to cripple Vampire Durkon's options. You think Vampire Durkon would know from his host's memories that it's smarter to just RUN AWAY from these guys are they have a habit of 90% of the time of NOT DYING. And to just set up delays so they can accomplish their mission, which are far more likely to be effective.

But seriously, to be honest honest? This comic feels like a BREATH OF FRESH AIR!!! Finally the Order of the Stick gets the drop on the enemy for once, Vampire Durkon is most likely there to bait them into the trap they're setting up, likely with some decay traps to make the heroes feel good about themselves... but he doesn't know the Order of the Stick knows ... which means I can look forward to the order of the stick kicking undead butt in the next few comics! :-)

Durkula is the anti-Durkon. Durkon was humble and a great support caster; Durkula is arrogant and the most dangerous member of his team. Remember that one of the Giant's favorite tropes is that people are brought down by their flaws; Durkula's pride will be his undoing, and I think we're about to see an example.

[Fish]

Also, if Bloodfeast indeed is dispelled and turned back into his tyranossaurus form, I call that the vampire he will eat is the Exarch:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html

That's a good call. Durkon was present when the dinosaur was transformed, so he might not have risked casting dispel magic anywhere near it, but based on that comic strip, the Exarch doesn't know who the lizard really is.

[Lord Joeltion]

Is there a reason to assume Durkula isn't scrying (one of) them back since they last saw him? If one of his clerics was scrying Haley for instance; he would have known the exact timing to fake a Death Symbol with absolute precision.

And also would possibly know what countermeasures they will be preparing for their assault.

[eilandesq]

Is there a reason to assume Durkula isn't scrying (one of) them back since they last saw him? If one of his clerics was scrying Haley for instance; he would have known the exact timing to fake a Death Symbol with absolute precision.

And also would possibly know what countermeasures they will be preparing for their assault.

Anyone within visual range of the scrying sensor can make a DC 20 intelligence check to spot it, per the 3.5 SRD. Which means that even if Durkula doesn't make his check (the Geekery thread seems to have no data on Durkon's intelligence, but the vampire template would increase whatever it was by 2, so the default assumption would be a 12 INT for Durkula and therefore needing to roll a 19 to make that check), any of the other vampires and or/vampire spawn in the room with a 10 or higher INT have a chance to make that check successfully.

[eilandesq]

I don't think Roy's Wisdom score is THAT bad. I personally would hope Roy says something clever and creates a counter-ambush, but *shrug* we shall see.

One would hope that the fact that a fair number of those vampires still have Protection from Fire on them from his last slip up would have taught him a lesson--it might even be an opportunity for him to give them bad information based on their recollection of the last time he screwed up that way.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Anyone within visual range of the scrying sensor can make a DC 20 intelligence check to spot it, per the 3.5 SRD. Which means that even if Durkula doesn't make his check (the Geekery thread seems to have no data on Durkon's intelligence, but the vampire template would increase whatever it was by 2, so the default assumption would be a 12 INT for Durkula and therefore needing to roll a 19 to make that check), any of the other vampires and or/vampire spawn in the room with a 10 or higher INT have a chance to make that check successfully.

I have read the 3.5 srd and it doesn't mention that Int check, only a Will save that determines if the spell works or not. At least in the description of scrying.

Anyway it would be nice that our heroes get the strategic upper hand for once

[Jasdoif]

I have read the 3.5 srd and it doesn't mention that Int check, only a Will save that determines if the spell works or not. At least in the description of scrying.

It's a standard feature of spells of the scrying subschool.

Scrying

A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.

Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.

[Spanish_Paladin]

It's a standard feature of spells of the scrying subschool.

Oh, thank you!! ^_^

P. S. : I still wish that they will surprise Greg

[8BitNinja]

Yes, because all liquid water molecules are anarchic, following Brownian motion, whether melted from amorphous or crystalline ice.

Technically all molecules are anarchic, since they all contain atoms, and electrons move around mostly randomly.

[eilandesq]

It's a standard feature of spells of the scrying subschool.

Oops, I missed that "12 or higher INT" requirement when I looked at the definition. That's certainly the *average* INT for a group of dwarves turned into vampires (because of the +2 bonus), but if they were dumber than average to start out with it could eliminate some potential spotters for what is already a tough roll. This could turn out to be important.